Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of small phones that are very tired and just want to take a little rest. I'm your host, Allison Johnson, and on today's show, I'm talking about two of my very favorite things: small phones and weird cameras. First, I'll be joined by some old friends at PetaPixel who are going to talk to me about what's been happening in the camera industry over the last 5 years. Then Dominic Preston's going to jump on and we are going to tackle a huge pile of listener questions in a mega hotline segment. All that is coming up right after the break, so stay tuned.
Welcome back. I am here with some of my very favorite kinds of people, which is to say camera nerds. Um, I am joined by the faces of PetaPixel's YouTube channel, Jordan Drake, of course, you know, co-host, editor, videographer. Hello, Jordan.
Occasionally show up on camera. Uh, yeah. Important to note.
Doing all the post to make the other person look fantastic.
Already look fantastic right from the start.
Um, yeah, I twist a couple knobs. You know, I dial some dials.
You're putting polish on a diamond ring. Come on.
Oh my goodness. Okay, so this is setting the tenor for our show. Um, thank you guys. Uh, that was Chris Nichols, you know, host, photographer, um, kind of man about town.
Oh, I appreciate that. That's true. That's true.
Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And I'm joined by Vern Pavlik, who's our supervising producer here at The Verge. Um, also a camera nerd and tests the weird cameras we get in. Is that fair?
Some of them are flying. Most of them are flying if you can get them in the US. It's a lot harder nowadays.
It's been a big year for weird cameras. We'll have to touch on that.
I am so ready to talk about weird cameras. Maybe that's... but I'll back up just a little bit and like set the context for how we all know each other. Um, so the two of you are at PetaPixel now, you know, long-running photography website. Um, previously we all worked together at DPReview. So we've been nerding out about camera stuff for a while now. You guys have been doing this forever. You know, Camera Store TV. You've got like 15 years of making videos about cameras under your belt. So I have lured you here, um, under the guise of hanging out and just like catching up. I feel like we are usually under extreme duress when we all hang out. It's like at a live event. We're running around. It's like very sweaty and hard to catch up. Um, and I've been kind of like out of the camera game for like the last 5 years and I need a little bit of a refresher on what has happened. Um, so you three are the very people to talk to about this.
Nice. Well, thanks for having us. This is great. I'm so excited.
Give me kind of like your takes on what have been some of the kind of like landmark or standout like launches or maybe just like innovations in the camera technology space, you know, in the past maybe 5 years. Like, Vern, do you have like a first thought on this?
In 5 years, what has happened in 5 years? Olympus went away, but they're still making cameras under a different brand.
Yes. Fuji became like one of the hottest cameras out there, X100. And the last two have been insanely popular and that's been a lot of fun.
We've also just like went all the way back to the 2000s and are now taking photos with like Olympus mju and, you know, point-and-shoots with a lot of just like high-key flash photography and a lot more has happened. All of the cameras can now film like incredible video too.
For sure. Yeah.
I think to add on that, yeah, I mean video is certainly a huge thing that's happened in the 5 years. Um, which makes Jordan happy and me indifferent. And then I would say also another big change is just how everybody's caught up. Um, you know, 5 years ago there was more variety in how good people's autofocusing was and what their capabilities were. Now, I feel like the sensors are all very similar. Everybody's got good dynamic range. Most players have very comparable autofocus now at this point. Everybody's rocking subject detection. Like, you know, it's kind of like all the trends that one person has started, everybody else has caught up to and jumped on. So, yeah, it's kind of a time now where camera design, I think, is more important and has to be more exciting than anything else.
We've definitely fixed the image quality issue like a while ago. Nobody can complain about image quality anymore. It's forbidden.
That's what's so interesting. Like the image quality thing is something every year we looked at as the primary thing. Like, oh, we got more megapixels. It's better in low light. Now, we're actually seeing the opposite thing happen over the last five. If you look at the higher-end cameras, they're like, look, we can make our picture quality a little bit worse in exchange for speed because the speed is going to be better for that autofocus and burst shooting and all that video stuff that's happening. So, yeah, it's kind of funny. I still look back to cameras, you know, from back when you were working, Allison, like a D850 from Nikon, and I'm like, that still takes better pictures than even top-of-the-line pro cameras at this point. But the new stuff does way better video, way better focus, much faster burst rates, that kind of stuff. So, that's kind of a compromise they've been willing to make these days.
Is it... Can someone explain to me what global shutter is? Does that tie into the speed thing, like the autofocus?
It does, but I would say in our world of photography only one player has actually incorporated it properly. So, you know, the Sony A9 III is a very cool camera, has global shutter. It means you can fire full electronic shutter. No rolling shutter issues whatsoever. No flash sync problems either. None of the wibbly wobblies and stuff. And of course, it unlocks insanely fast burst rates. And Sony, of course, have fantastic autofocus. So, it's very much a purpose-built sports and action camera, but you know, kind of like what Jordan was talking about, you do sacrifice a bit of dynamic range, megapixel count, that kind of stuff. Really, it's made for a specific goal, and that is to get as many shots even with flashes flying. Like it's a great paparazzi red carpet camera, you know, great video capabilities, but we're seeing that also with stacked sensors in general, which don't quite get there, but do a lot of what that does. And that's probably another big change in the last 5 years, just the proliferation of high-quality stacked sensors.
Okay. And stacked sensor is like BSI, right? Like there's layers of pixels and...
Beyond the BSI, I would say. Yeah. I was just going to say like the BSI is what we saw previously and then these stacked sensors, they've just put the electronics right on the chip and that's again giving us that faster readout for that other stuff but again a slightly worse image quality than we had before.
That's so interesting that the image quality is like a thing people are fine with kind of sacrificing a little bit. Everybody's kind of caught up to this idea that image quality isn't the be-all end-all. Um, because they're all good and now people are, as we've talked about, preferring bad image quality, right? They're preferring cameras with tiny sensors and they're going analog and we've seen a real resurgence of lenses that are designed to look like old vintage lenses along with all the flaws and failures and issues with those lenses.
So, I would say for a little while there it was like an arms race to get the latest and greatest mirrorless camera out on the market.
It's an arms race to make the image a little bit shittier now is where we're at.
Seems like it. Um, yeah. Let's talk about compact cameras because I am, I think, just as confused as anyone about what is happening. I mean, you guys sold compact cameras to people many, many years ago, and all of a sudden, they're back.
Not even used on eBay. It was brand new. Like someone actually came in and gave us $900 for this tiny crappy little camera, and they loved every second of it, and it fit in an Altoids mint container, and they were so happy.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Those are the days.
Vern, did you have a crappy little digital camera like back in the day?
Back in the day, I had a lot of Sony Cyber-shots.
If you give me like 12 seconds, I can grab two of them.
It looks like a tape recorder.
No, I had one that did that, too. I had... It's like super thin.
Yeah, there's that one. There's another one which is probably a year later.
Like these companies were making cameras like constantly. It was a lot of fun. Um, this is maybe the one.
Yeah, that's the one that Sydney was rocking. Yeah.
Yeah. I went back home. I got the chargers. I got the memory sticks. I got a memory card reader.
Yeah. Pro Duo as well. Or Pro or Duo. I don't know. They still work.
There was another Sony camera that I had to use reverse image search to actually find out the real model of it. It was... I don't know how to describe it. I just don't know how to describe it. It was like a tiny little... think about like a pill box and then you can rotate the lens to lens only.
Yeah, Nikon and Sony did those. So, here's a question. Did you guys actually use those back in the day or did you kind of rediscover them now, right? Because, you know, we sold those in the store and we played with all those cameras and tested them out and like, yeah, they're garbage. Like, the menus are terrible and everything's slow and the screens are bad, you know, and the image quality is fun, sure, but it was funny, but the designs were so interesting. Like that was the time where manufacturers would just throw everything at the wall to see what would stick. And it was really exciting. All these wacky, strange designs you would never ever take risks on nowadays. Although I would say that, you know, some of the companies are now starting to come around and try some stuff again, which is kind of cool.
I wonder how much of the digital camera renaissance is about people discovering that it's like nice to hold a camera and use it when you're so used to using a smartphone.
Yeah. The weird factor is pretty good, too.
But is it just the novelty? Is that what people are loving now is like the novelty? Because we were in the trenches, you know what I mean? And it was horrible. And now I think people rediscovering it are like, 'Oh, this is so different and it's so like novel.' But no, it was just garbage at the time.
I did carry around my little Cyber-shot and took pictures of friends and it was just like that was the only option, you know? It's just weird to think of it like that.
Jordan, you have a camera in your hands. I want...
Yeah. So, the last time I saw you, Allison, I was waving this thing around. I've put a video out since, but if you look at it, I think this is really cool because this is a Kodak V770, and it is kind of the origin to the smartphone camera solution. So, they had this super thin thing. They're like, 'Well, we can't make the zoom any bigger, the lens any wider, any brighter.' So, they just put two complete cameras in here. So, it's a zoom lens and then an ultra-wide and they're two separate sensors in there as well. So, it's kind of... they came up with the solution before the smartphone manufacturers did.
Well, even this... this is my favorite camera. This is the Panasonic GM5. It's the greatest camera of all time. We just made a video about it and that was like one of our biggest debuts. Like, it's crazy because everybody loves this stuff again. It's like a renaissance. I love it.
Let's talk about weird cameras because I feel like there is kind of a natural synergy. These are all weird.
They are all super weird. There was kind of like a smooshing where like every camera design sort of became the same. And I think that's happened with smartphones too.
But in the very recent past, we have seen some, I would say, really weird out-there kind of camera designs. And I'm all about it. Like, I don't know, what are your guys' feelings about some of these?
I think we're going to fight. I don't know, what should we start with? Like, you know, I think it's like as an overarching theme, I would say I think it's great that manufacturers are trying different designs again. Like the Fujifilm X-Half is a good example of like a really cute, really adorable design with some fun features on it that hearken back to the days of nostalgia. And I will admit like a camera like that did make me feel nostalgic for like a couple days and then after that it wore off and I'm like, this isn't really there, right? Like it's kind of just a basic point-and-shoot camera with this sort of film experience. But I get it if somebody hasn't had that, it would be super fun to look at a contact sheet again, whatever. But it's fun that the manufacturers are taking these risks. But how often do they hit, right? Because the Sigma BF is another example of something that was beautifully designed. Sigma always make weird cameras. They always have. I've always thought they're kind of trash. And I kind of thought this last one was too. It's beautiful trash, though. Like, it's really gorgeous trash.
Beautiful trash. Okay. I know... we can come back to the Fuji, but like I got to defend Sigma here. Honestly, I think about this a lot. The camera that I miss the most is the Sigma BF. Like the one that I'm like, 'Oh man, I wish I had like a little bit more time with it.' I really enjoyed using that camera. Like truly loved using it.
It's like this unibody metal slab of a camera. It is a Sigma full-frame camera that does some video. It's not really good at it. It has built-in storage. Doesn't have any card slots. It has a microphone, but like you would never use it. It doesn't have a hot shoe. It can barely take photos in fluorescent light because of the electronic shutter only.
I know, right? This is just like a list of cons.
And then there is the... Hey, I went to use this for a little while and I absolutely loved it. I thought the lenses were pretty good and everything, but I thought, you know, we live in a world where film simulations are everywhere and everyone's trying to kind of do it. I thought they did pretty good with those.
But you know, I really enjoyed how one, it has internal storage which makes the camera super fast. Like turning it on, saving the photos, operations in general just like feel snappy.
There's barely any dials on it, right? You have one main dial,
but in that dial, it's also a D-pad. You can kind of like...
You can set what you want to change on it left and right and then use the click wheel basically to change the settings and it all shows on a little sub monitor and it made me kind of cycle through, you know, two to three options that I would use a lot and I ended up using them a lot more like the film simulations and crop primarily.
And I thought the photos were actually beautiful. I thought as we said earlier, the autofocus is like not a problem with these cameras anymore and I thought they did a pretty good job there as well.
You said it right there though, Vern. And the thing is it made you do stuff because the Sigma BF is designed in such a way that you don't have alternative ways to control a camera. And one of the things that really drives me crazy as a photographer is if I have a camera or any product, I mean, even the iPad makes me mad for this same reason, has nothing to do with photography, is if there are not multiple ways to control something, you know, logical, intuitive ways, if you're kind of forced to use it a certain way, I find that a little obnoxious. And like the BF has got this weird thing because it's got a touchscreen, but you only use the touch functions for certain things. Otherwise, you're back to using the dial and it's kind of... there's a lot of clicking to get through things. I felt in stressful, high-paced scenarios, it's too slow to adjust and get set and get changed. The body is gorgeous, but that block of aluminum, I mean, they did such a great job machining it, but those edges are so hard and sharp that... and I've been hearing now feedback like people are bumping this camera onto things and chipping chunks off those sharp edges. Like, your gorgeous jewelry camera is not going to look so gorgeous after a while. You know, there's no EVF, which is a huge strike for me. I know people don't care, but like when I played with the Panasonic S9, which is a compact little full-frame camera that also was limiting in a lot of ways, but had that same idea like functionality goes more towards color modes and casual shooting and fun stuff. And then I played with the BF. I was like, give me that S9 back because that thing actually is like a professional monster compared to this. So, I mean, I get it as a beautiful camera that you wear on your shoulder that can take nice photos, you know, and that can kind of be navigated once you learn it. Great. But I would never trust or rely on it to be like an everyday camera. And I feel like Kazutomo Yamaki, the CEO, just made it because it looks so beautiful. And he's like, 'This is what I want to carry around myself.'
Yeah. And truly, it was my everyday carry, take photos of stuff that I see around the street. I brought it to a press event. I think it was a Google event. Took one photo with it and I was like, this is not it. Let's go back to Sony. So it definitely... this was like I'm gonna carry it around, bring it places and take pictures of what I see. Professional setting? Absolutely not.
Jordan, was the video just a non-starter for you in the BF or like what are your BF feelings?
I basically... they're pretty similar to Chris's. Like it's not a great video camera. The microphone thing came up, which is super weird on it to like have Bluetooth support which I could never get to work anyways. There's no IBIS and the rolling shutter on it's really bad. So again, it's those wibbly wobbly situations on it and I'm terrified of it the whole time I'm holding it. I'm like, what if I accidentally put it down the wrong way and cut my stomach open? Like it's... there were people who put it in their jacket pockets and they like shredded the inside lining of their jacket pockets. But the one attribute it has is whenever I'm doing anything on my own time, I have a camera with me because we're always testing stuff and everyone ignores me. But this time, the one time I went out with the BF, I had like a half dozen people walk up and just be like, 'That is cool. What is that?' So, that's the appeal of it. If you want to meet people and don't like joining clubs, like the BF is a small investment to make new friends, but as a photographic tool, I just found it very difficult.
It is an unapologetic camera that owes everybody an apology for hurting them physically. It sounds like for all sorts of stuff.
Okay. So on the also unapologetic but with a different ethos, I think, you know, you brought up the Fujifilm X-Half. I'll be honest, I think it's adorable and fun and I want to carry it around. Also, I don't want it to be the camera I have every single day and look back at photos of my kid in 10 years and be like, 'Yeah, sorry son. These are all like crappy film stock simulations.' So yeah, Chris, what's your take on the Fuji?
Yeah, like look, I know I kind of sound like no-fun Nickels all the time, but I've actually come around a lot on film simulation modes of all sorts, right? Like, you know, Lumix Lab, Panasonic did that with Lumix Lab and Fujifilm's always done it and now Sigma's doing it, like all the companies are kind of building up on this make-your-own-preset kind of business. Do your own customizations, make a vintage aesthetic, make a warm tone, you know, anything you want to do. And I think that's great. And actually on the X-Half I really enjoyed all the silly stuff like the light leaks and you know all these kind of features that it had. So you've got this tiny little camera with like a cropped sensor down from Micro Four Thirds size-ish. You know, image quality is fine. It's fine but it's basic. And it's this cute little... I mean the design is beautiful. It works in basically two modes. It's like two cameras in one. So, first mode is you have a very basic point-and-shoot digital camera, but you can do film simulations. You can play around with some of the stuff. The second mode is where it really kind of tries to draw nostalgia and give you a film shooting experience. So, it shoots in a vertical format. I think we should mention that, which is kind of cool right off the bat. Not that it needs to, that's just what it does, which is adorable. And the camera has a thumb winder on it, so you can go into a film mode. You choose a roll of film, like basically a Fujifilm simulation. You choose it and you're stuck with it for the next however many shots you're going to do. You can choose 24, 36, like 48, 72. And then at the end of doing that, it develops that roll of film. It gives you a contact sheet with your negatives all laid out like that, right? As a positive image. And it's cute and it's fun and I get it. And you're using the thumb winder in between every shot. It won't let you shoot unless you crank the thumb winder in this second mode. But the thumb winder doesn't always register. If you go too fast with that camera, you're doing... you have to like... I started treating it like an M3 double wind. I'm like, I'm double winding this thing every time just to make sure.
And like the novelty, I think it's a super fun thing to do and then after like, I don't know what your threshold will be, but after like three or four fake rolls of film I'd just be like, forget it. I'm going back to the regular camera because I want to be able to have the option to just change things afterwards and not have to, you know, go through 36 shots in black and white when I desperately see something I want to shoot color. So, I found myself just saying, you know what? And the thumb winder was kind of silly and superfluous. So, after a while, I was like, I just use this as a basic point-and-shoot camera, but then why did I pay for that whole film and thumb winder situation? I mean, I don't know. That's my feeling on it. I'm no fun.
Oh well, we love you anyway. It's gorgeous.
Thank you. It's a gorgeous camera. It's like gorgeously designed.
What is the price tag on it? We should say that out loud.
Like 800 bucks. 800 US. Yeah.
I thought we were really surprised. The one thing I will say about it is Chris may not have enjoyed doing like the film mode thing, but as an outside spectator, because I didn't shoot photos on it. I had the terrible experience of shooting some video on it, which I can briefly address. But the whole time I'm like, that looks like fun. I want to do that. I want to go take the app. So there might be some appeal there. I want to actually try it out, shoot some photos, see if I do enjoy that. But like Chris mentioned, you know, the image quality is decent. It's smartphone decent. You know, it's like a type one sensor with a slow lens. So your smartphone will do the same quality. But the video was hilarious because they have light leak effects which, you know, in photo just sit in one static place. But in video, if you've got a leak, it'll move based on where the light is coming from. But this doesn't do this. So, it looks like you just put like a piece of glass in front of the lens and painted like an orange smear on it and then it's just stuck in front as you wave the camera around. It looks hilarious. It's like early David Lynch when he was figuring out digital cameras, but it's weird as hell.
Breaks the illusion a little bit. Yeah. So Vern, you wrote the review for us. And which seemed very positive. Is this another like Sigma BF situation for you where you're like, 'Yes, it's limited, but I love what...'
I think he's a masochist. I think that's what it is. I think you're just a masochist.
I'm just like an optimist. No, it was mostly positive, but so hard to justify, right? We already talked about the price. The price is just ridiculous. If you look at the comments on any of the videos or articles, just everyone is like, 'This is insane.' What I did enjoy about it was actually using it until you hit what was also mentioned. It feels slow. You know, when you take a photo and you crank it and it doesn't register.
You found that too? Yeah.
Oh, yeah. It was very slow to like write onto the card. And I had a fast card in it. The processor in it is actually like really good. It shouldn't be the case that it's so slow. Those are the things that like bother me. What I did like about it is that it felt like some thought went into designing the hardware and software in tandem for the experience of using it. It didn't feel like, you know, hey, here's a trend, we're going to make something really quickly. Like, you know, at these press events they give you the R&D story behind it and I was like, you know what, yeah, I can kind of buy it. I don't think it's quite just a cash grab. Although the price is ridiculous. So using it was fun. I did not try the video with light leaks.
Oh, you got to. And if you got some time this weekend, enjoy.
I'm good. No, no, no. This was... and just for reference, like it wasn't a review. It was like a hands-on. I had like a couple of hours with it, right? So it was just like a pretty brief experience with it. And yeah, I think software hardware design was interesting, fun. It was fun to use, but it does make me... like I would never buy it because of the price. Even if I do buy it, I am a little bit of a sucker for like high quality, beautiful, high megapixel everything. I don't think I would actually take it out as much. You know, it would probably be the camera that I leave behind. I use a lot more of like, you know, the pocket... the Osmo Pockets and one of these cameras and the... like I just want to cover every basis. The basis that I don't want to cover is a fun one-inch sensor, right? That's just extra.
You mentioned the Osmo and I have questions actually. I noticed this like... this was starting to ramp up when I was leaving DPReview, but like every camera company launching their like vlogger camera. And I got kind of a glimpse of this. I reported a little bit ago on the Canon PowerShot V1... V10.
Like, have these like vlogging-focused cameras panned out for the manufacturers or did like the Osmo just win?
The Osmo killed them all.
Yeah, the Osmo killed them all. I was thinking about this though just today, like all these companies that we were going through started making vlogging cameras, right? Panasonic did, Nikon did, Sony of course really came out of the gate first. Canon then started to and it was like no, no, no camera viewer that I really knew of super enjoyed these cameras, right? We're all complaining about the same things. It's like, oh, they're expensive and like they're kind of silly and I don't know who wants these. And I'm convinced it's because there's so many people that do so many other interests that we're just not interested in that are looking for a very basic kit to get started. I guess if I was somebody starting out and I didn't know what I was doing, I just wanted to like get something at Best Buy, put it in front of me, and make it work, well then that might do it, right? So I think that's why they were so popular. But I think now as more people catch on to the Osmo, the beauty of a gimbal, the fact that again it's very simple, the fact that you can add microphones to it like seamlessly, that makes it even more convenient. And I think as more and more people figure out what the pocket cameras do for them, we're going to see even less and less vlog cameras.
Have those been hard to get like the drones?
It's not hard to get except the price has gone up.
By 40%. I think it's about 900 bucks to like get the whole thing and it started with $500.
Yeah, I mean even at $900 it's still probably worth it. But yeah, like when they were $500, what a steal. Yeah, what a great little camera. And yeah, image quality as we've talked about is plateaued. Nobody cares anymore. We want it to work and we want it to be easy and we want to know that when we get home everything's okay and it's all set for us. Like yeah, that's great.
On the subject of making YouTube videos, I have questions for the two of you, Chris and Jordan. You guys have been at this for so long and I'm curious on your perspective on how it's changed, you know, like there's just a lot in that question. There's like the camera market has changed, the technology has changed, like making the videos has changed. But I don't know, how do you look at the change over the past like decade that you've been doing this?
The style that younger creators make now is very different. We still stick to our same style. We shoot a lot on location and as you can... as you said Jordan, with like nicer cameras, you know, Jordan's looking for more...
Cinematic results and control over depth of field. And so whereas now I think a lot of young creators are looking more at presets and more extreme color grades and faster cuts and stuff. But what do you think, Jordan?
And I think the big difference is when we started, it just had to be passable and you could build a massive audience. Like basically our early stuff is unwatchably bad. But fairly quickly we got to a level where yeah, it was better than, you know, something that someone with no background in video production could put together. Where now, you know, the bar is so much higher if you're starting. But I think it almost puts us in an interesting place because it's not so much about like how is your production value, but it's like what are you producing? And if that's compelling, like I think if you like for us specifically, hey, if you want to review camera gear, you know, you better back it up with some interesting photos or interesting shoots or an interesting experience or something like that. Like pure brute technical know-how is not going to get you as far as it used to back in the day. So, um, you know, we learned very quickly to just start injecting more of our personalities into the video and that's, I think, why we're still doing this all that time later.
The tools have definitely, like editing is faster now on location. They've given us a lot of stuff, you know, more dynamic range in a camera means I can shoot in more locations without looking for a place with easier light to work with. So, all of that is just making us more productive and that's what I love to see is just like, hey, we can actually do more now.
Yeah. Does that resonate, V? Um, yeah, but I actually wanted to ask a question. I feel like in the last couple of years, especially, you know, with the rise of short form video content, especially when it comes to camera, every release of a camera, everyone has a video about it. Everyone has something ready to go on embargo. It's been, it's more saturated than ever, honestly. And you know, we've seen reports of just like influencer marketing budgets are like, you know, covering everything, right? Is there anything else that you kind of do or think differently to stand out, to remain?
