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Robert Hoge
General Counsel & Chief Wind-Down Officer, BOWFLEX INC

Robert Hoge's personal story 'Ugly' at Happiness & Its Causes 2014

🎥 Aug 19, 2014 📺 Happiness & Its Causes ⏱ 20m 👁 20865 views
Robert Hoge, journalist, former speechwriter and political advisor and author of Ugly: My Memoir Moderator: Natasha Mitchell, ...
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About Robert Hoge

Robert Hoge, author of the memoir "Ugly" and a former political advisor, has spoken publicly about his experiences with facial deformities and the concept of "owning" one's face. In a 2015 TEDx talk, Hoge described being born with a massive tumor on his face that pushed his eyes to the sides of his head, and having a nose reconstructed from one of his deformed toes during childhood. He stated that the biggest obstacle to people owning their faces is "us disowning them when we ogle a photoshopped magazine cover" or "click on the link promising celebrity photos without makeup." Hoge argued that "owning is choosing" and encouraged people to "choose to accept your face, choose to appreciate your face." In a 2014 interview, Hoge discussed his relationship with beauty, saying he believes there is an aesthetic standard by which people can be classified as ugly, but that "there's nothing wrong with beauty." He noted that his mother initially rejected him after his birth, but that his siblings voted to bring him home. Hoge recounted that at age 14, his parents gave him the choice of whether to undergo further surgery, and he decided against it. He said he still finds it difficult when his wife tells him she thinks he is beautiful, but understands "that it's real for her and that's the important thing."

Source: AI-verified profile updated from Robert Hoge's recent appearances. Browse all interviews →

Transcript (22 segments)
I
Interviewer0:06
A-grade, top of the range Rolls-Royce, ugly? Yep, these are your words.
R
Robert Hoge0:14
They are my words. The name of my memoir is Ugly. I knew I'd have to write it a lot, so I picked a short word.
I
Interviewer0:22
I mean, as far as I can tell, Ugly is as much about bad haircuts as it is about anything else. There are a significant number of bad haircuts in my life.
R
Robert Hoge0:30
So what's your relationship to beauty if you have named ugly at the center of so much?
I
Interviewer0:38
I think I am very appreciative of beauty. I think there's an aesthetic standard which people can fall within a range of normal, and I think there's an aesthetic standard that people can classify... mean, people are classified as beautiful, and I think there's an aesthetic standard where people who fail to meet that can be classified as ugly. I don't think there's necessarily any attributes or characteristics that necessarily go with those characteristics, but there's nothing wrong with beauty. I'm particularly appreciative of it.
R
Robert Hoge1:17
Is it more to you than the skin you're in or the skin that people are in? Compost can be potentially... wow, compost might be beautiful to a gardener, but well... no, absolutely it can be, but I don't... I think there's something on the outside that can be beautiful and something on the inside that can be beautiful. You know, I imagine there are a number of people here who consider themselves short. I'm sure you don't think you're tall on the inside... maybe you do, and that's quite wonderful. But you know, what we need to do is we need to disassociate the characteristics of being generous and warm and intelligent and engaging from the concept of beauty or ugliness. Interesting. And if we do that, it's also okay to say someone's beautiful and to say someone's ugly.
I
Interviewer2:19
21st of July 1972. Mary and Vince have their fifth child, and his name is Robert. You. What was your mother's reaction to your birth?
R
Robert Hoge2:32
Well, when I was born, I didn't look quite as wonderful as I do now. I had a massive tumor in the middle of my face which pushed my eyes to the side of my head, so my eyes were here where these dents were or are in the side of my head. I had two deformed legs. And you know, in the early '70s when I was born, there were no scans, there was no warning that I was coming. And my mother had a sense that something was wrong. It was quite a long labor, and she asked as soon as I was born... she didn't ask 'Is it a boy or a girl?' She said 'Is my baby okay?' And the doctor said 'No, he's not okay. He's got a big tumor in his face and something wrong with his legs.' And my mom basically sent me away without seeing me. So, more than that though, she also described this baby that she hadn't seen in those days and weeks after ward as an 'it.' Yes. She had real trouble relating to me as her son. She went off back to the maternity ward, I went to the nursery. My dad saw me the day I was born, but she refused to see me for a week. She just couldn't engage with the sense that she had a child with so many problems. And then eventually, a doctor there convinced her to come and see me, and she did. And she looked down at me in my cot and decided then and there that she didn't want to take me home. And she then spent a few weeks talking to everyone: the local MP, her local doctor, her priest, to try and find as much support as she could for the notion of not bringing me home.
I
Interviewer4:25
But then she spoke to these siblings of yours. The kids back at home. Yes. And they became the arbiters.
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Robert Hoge4:31
They did. I think mom was really worried about what the impact of bringing me home would have on her four normal children and the impact I'd have on their upbringing. And she got to a point where she thought, if she was so worried about the impact I'd have on them, that she should give them a say in whether I came home. So on Exhibition Wednesday in Brisbane, 40 almost 42 years ago, she brought my siblings up, and they all got to nurse me for about five minutes each. And then that Saturday at home, they all sat down around the kitchen table, and mom and dad asked them one by one: 'Should we bring Robert home?' And thankfully, one by one, they all said yes.
I
Interviewer5:25
It's pretty incredible, isn't it? That a family conference like that with children can determine the future, your future. It determined your future.
R
Robert Hoge5:34
Yeah. Who's to say what would have happened if they'd said no? But I think my parents, and my mom was really genuine in that sense of wanting to know what they thought. And I think if they had said no, there'd be a really good chance that I didn't come home. And the great thing is that your parents and your mom became your staunch defenders. They had different approaches, we might get to that. But I wonder, your mother wrote a very detailed diary, and you have used that to piece together this memoir. Does reading that, even if we let go of what we know of what our parents might have felt about us as children, whether we were unwanted or whether we were a mistake, even if we let that go in adulthood, that that can still eat away at our psyche? It can still be a burden to us. Has your mother's rejection of you in those first weeks and months, really weeks, been a burden?
I
Interviewer6:30
Yes and no. Intellectually it has been sometimes, but never emotionally. And I think the key to that was I always knew that part of the story from a very early age. Mom kept her diary. It's a little blue Collins diary on her bedside table, on the side of the couch. And it was there; it wasn't hidden away in a drawer. It was there for everyone to see. And she'd pick it up and write in it every now and then. So as a kid, I'd be curious and I'd pick it up and flick through the pages and look at her extraordinarily neat handwriting compared to mine. And I'd get to the stage where I'd ask her to read from it. And I clearly remember when I was like seven or eight saying, 'Mom, can you read from your book again about when you didn't want to bring me home?' Wow. And I can understand at an intellectual level that that's hard, and that's hard to grasp. But it came from a place of warmth and knowing that even if the journey was hard, the end point was quite nice.
R
Robert Hoge7:50
Some of the names you were called as a kid, and even though it sounds like you made friends pretty easily, you were part of a big family, there was a lot going on, there was a lot of warmth in your life. You know, kids can be absolute cretins. And you write really viscerally, I think, about the names you got called: Transformer, that was kind of a compliment. I yeah. Transformer naming the legs. But words like Flatnose or Toe-nose did eat away, didn't they?
I
Interviewer8:32
Yeah. And I think it's probably worth explaining the context of that. When I was about four and a half, the doctors decided they were going to do a big operation to remake my face. They'd already removed the tumor from the front of my face, but they were going to move my eyes from the side of my head to the front of my head, and they needed to make me a new nose. So they amputated some deformed toes off my legs, and they used those toes to build me a new nose, which is just an amazing thing to do in 1977. And it attracted headlines; it was a 12-hour procedure. It was a really mammoth event. And it did get some attention, and some kids at school read about it, and I got the nickname Toe-nose. And I was pretty resilient, I gave as I got. But that one was really hard to get past. And I think about it a lot because I went through this whole process where I'd get called Toe-nose, I'd be ashamed of my face, I'd be ashamed of what the doctors had done, and then I'd go through this circular process where I was ashamed of being ashamed. So that's why it had an awful lot of power. But you seem to have developed a really strong sense of self, and I'm interested to know where that came from, but also what it felt like to you, being in the skin you were as a kid, looking from the inside out.
R
Robert Hoge10:14
Well, I think it probably in some ways helped me develop a sense of self faster, because everyone's different. I think it takes some people a lot longer to realize how they can define themselves as being different from others and what their internal value as a person is. But for me, there were obvious differences: other kids had legs, other kids had a normal nose and normal eyes, and I didn't. So that, I think, put me on that fast track to defining myself, or defining my sense of self, a lot faster. And it's really hard to piece together all of the things that helped do that. Writers like to talk about characters having a sense of agency and making decisions that are active choices that either go right or wrong, but they're actively making those choices. And most of us on a daily basis are making those sorts of choices, and I have made a lot of those sorts of choices across my life. But the other thing that became really important for me really quickly was understanding that our lives are also like a game of snakes and ladders. You roll a six and you end up on that square, and you go down a snake and you're 15 squares back, and you can't control that. And you need to reach a point of not just saying that stuff doesn't matter, but saying that if you want to live a full life, you need to accept that there's things you can't control. 100% of it. Big stuff for a kid to grapple with. And I figured all that out when I was eight.
I
Interviewer12:05
Yeah, yeah. Of course. Classic. Where do you... has your relationship to... well, no, actually I want to ask this. So you had this massive surgery as a little kid, but at the end of year nine, incredibly, your parents invested you with this decision. What was the decision you made? And I think it sounds like it was fundamental to your sense of well-being at that time, but also for the rest of your life.
R
Robert Hoge12:34
Well, when I was in grade nine, the doctor said to my parents, 'We want to do another operation on Robert.' They were very keen to do some more work on me before I hit puberty. And I think doctors are like artists as well; they don't want to leave a work half unfinished. And I think they looked at my face, which was massively improved, and I could see properly and interact with the world much better, but they thought ten years later there was a lot more they could do. So they said to my parents, 'We want to do another operation on Robert. We'll fill in the gaps in the side of his head, we'll fix up some scars, we'll rework his nose. And when we rework his nose to make it look a bit more normal, that'll emphasize that his eyes are still a little bit too far apart, so we'll put them a bit closer together.' My parents then did the single worst thing they have ever done to me in my life and said, 'Well, Robert, you're almost an adult; it's your choice.' And I don't know, but I'm pretty sure grade nine boys are the worst form of humanity anywhere, ever possible. There is nothing worse. And I wasn't a particularly upstanding example of grade nine boys either. So that was a lot for someone to think about. So you did think about it. We went around all of the options and talked about what it would involve and what I'd look like at the end and how long the procedure would take. And then we got round to talking about the risks. They said, 'There's work on your face, there's a lot of blood, you could end up with an infection. The procedure could go wrong; it could undo some of the work they did when you were four and a half. And because we're moving the orbit of your eyes, there's a one in four chance you'll go blind.' So when we were having the discussion and it was decision time, we were sitting down again at the kitchen table, my parents, me, and my elder brother Michael who's almost ten years older than me. And we talked through the risks, and we came to the bit about going blind, and he said, 'Well, what use is it looking pretty if he can't see himself?' And I think I'd probably have reached the same decision anyway, but that just really focused my mind on why I would want to have the operation and why I wouldn't. And I just decided then and there, and I said to my parents, 'No, I don't want to do it. And I don't want any more operations.' Are you at peace with that decision now, as a 40, nearly 42-year-old?
I
Interviewer15:16
I'm sitting here right now, I am. I can't say I'm at peace with it every day, and every minute of every day. But I'm at peace with it most days, and most of the time. Sometimes I'd like to look prettier. I keep hoping I'm going to age into my... I'm going to grow into my age and end up looking like George Clooney, but he's overrated. I don't think I'll get free coffee. But it's not going to happen. And this face, it's the face my friends know, it's the face my wife loves, it's the face my daughter knows, and I'm pretty comfortable in it. What did having Imogen mean to you?
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Robert Hoge16:02
Well, it meant several months of being scared shitless of being a dad. It gave me a really good sense, and I think it helped me reach some peace with a notion of beauty. She's a very beautiful child, a very beautiful baby. And people kept asking me, 'Do you want a boy or a girl?' And I'm going, 'Literally, I just want a baby with ten fingers and ten toes.' I was a bit worried about what I would think if I had a child with a disability or a deformity, and I went through that whole circle of the Toe-nose name-calling again, because I kept thinking, 'If I have a child, I don't want to have a child who has major issues.' And part of that was I knew what it was like to go through that, but part of it was also that in some way I'd feel responsible. And then I'd get to a point thinking, 'Well, if there's anyone who can do a decent job of raising a child with a disability or a deformity, it should be me.' And I kind of made my peace with that. So she's grown into an almost 12-year-old girl who's taller than me when I've got my artificial legs off. And make sure I know that, no, she'd be reminding you of that all the time. 12-year-olds. How is your relationship then, given that this is the Happiness and Its Causes conference, how is your relationship to what's important to you and happiness... maybe their separate themes... changed over the years? Maybe it's a question about priorities, I don't know.
I
Interviewer17:55
I think for my mind, it's about my sense of happiness comes from knowing myself better. And it goes back to that question about sense of self. I had to make peace with how I was, with my disability, with my deformities very early on, or I just simply wouldn't be here; I would have taken a different option. And I made peace with that and thrived in the workplace, and blitzed school... 'blitzed' is a generous word. Well, I did get Ducks of Mucks in society, which is like... you know, no. But you also got some amazing figure in the English... I did okay. And I think having that sense of myself really early on helped me deal with issues going forward, and saying, 'Okay, what are things that I'm dealing with in my day-to-day life that are pains in the butt, that are annoyances, that are problems if I want to get a job... all of that stuff, versus what are things that attack my sense of self.' And it's like, I've got a pretty strong sense of that. What about in your relationships, your intimate relationships? Because the memoir's lovely, you're kind to quest... to flirt with girls in your teens. But that's significant, isn't it? That process of finding yourself in an intimate relationship as well, not just your public face but your private face.
R
Robert Hoge19:38
Well, I keep thinking that I used the way I look as an excuse to sort of avoid trying to interact with girls a lot during my teens. And I think I just avoided making a lot of the mistakes that everyone makes that I needed to make when I was a lot younger. So I think some of that happened a bit later than it should have. But I still find it hard when my wife tells me she thinks I'm beautiful. That sounds dishonest, but it just sounds strange to me. But I understand that it's real for her, and that's the important thing. Thank you, Robert, very much. It's wonderful.