EP 78 (FULL RECORDING) | Jey Balachandran | From Employee #7 To CTO At Doximity (Publicly Traded)

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a while since we've met up, but yeah, Era, we spent a lot of time together back in college at U of T, I'd say mostly at Gerstein libraries.

Well, I was actually born in Sri Lanka, but I moved to Canada when I was nine. And I still feel that I'm Canadian — I still hold on to my passport. But I've been here for 11 years at this point, so the US is definitely starting to grow on me. But I'm in San Francisco, so I would say more San Francisco than anything else in the US.

Yeah, so as I said, I moved to Canada when I was nine with my whole family. We stayed initially in Mississauga, then moved around to Scarborough, North York, and ended up back in Sauga after a while. I wasn't really introduced to technology much in Sri Lanka besides having a TV. When I came to Canada and saw a computer, I was very fascinated by it. My dad and my brother went and purchased our first computer, and I would get a little bit of time here and there. To be honest, I just got fascinated by the games I could play on the computer, just like any kid. That got me really interested. A couple of years after that, I was playing a bunch of games and wanted to learn how they worked. I leaned on my older brother to show me and tell me how these are made — the programming languages — and that's what began my journey. I wouldn't say prior to that I ever thought much of technology or that I would really get into it, but I got pulled into that world where I realized I could build things from scratch over a quarter of a day or weeks and see it come to fruition.

A little over 800 people.

Yeah, it's certainly changed a lot, and in many ways it's still very much the same, or I feel that it is. One of the things I loved about the company in the early days was that it was a fun experience to work there. There were stressful moments for sure, but it felt better knowing that your colleagues were there to support you and you could work with them. That notion hasn't changed to this day, and I love that aspect of it. So yes, we've grown drastically — over 800 people at this point. I wish I could say I know everybody by name, but it's beyond the ability to remember that many names and faces. But every time we meet up in person and get a chance to talk to people, it feels so collaborative and enjoyable to work with this group of people. It does remind me often of the early days when there would be 10 of us crammed in our small house working on a problem. That cultural aspect still remains. The biggest changes are that we have to learn to scale how we innovate and how we build over time. The same things that worked when we were a company of 50 or 100 or 300 weren't going to work today, and we just have to be willing to accept those changes and move forward, knowing we're going to discover new and better ways of working together over time.

No, you're not completely off, but that is part of the story. The ability to connect with other physicians is certainly important. Being able to look up another physician — say you wanted to refer a patient who speaks Spanish in Texas, you should be able to look that physician up very quickly and refer the patient there. So that directory component is very valuable. But it's also about workflow tools. Physicians have a very different workflow than the rest of us, and we need to make sure it's as efficient as possible for them. So we focus a lot on building workflow tools that really enable them to do care a lot better for people like us. Some of this, given it's a little more popular these days, is telemedicine, and that certainly is one of our workflow tools. But others also exist. For example, physicians need to stay continually educated on different topics — we call that continuing medical education — and we provide ways for them to do that very seamlessly as well. So it's a lot of different workflow tools that really enable the physician to focus on what they should be focusing on, which is care for patients.

That's a very good question. The answer really depends on your field. Computer science is a very unique field in the last decade where a lot of people have been able to pick up that skill regardless of their background, regardless of where they went to college or if they went to college, with a lot of successful boot camps and online courses. When I joined Doximity, they didn't particularly care where I had my education as long as I did, because it's required for the visa. Even to this day, especially in the engineering field, we don't particularly look into exactly where you went to school and grade based on that as much as what you're able to bring to the job and accomplish. That's what matters the most. I've certainly seen people from various backgrounds — from MIT and Stanford to people just doing boot camps, and before that they did a completely unpredictable field. For the vast majority of startups, it hasn't been that necessary that you went to a top school as much as you have the skill sets and some experience to show for it.

I was going to say, but outside of computer science, I think it might matter. Computer science is a pretty unique one in terms of how much content has come out that allows people to self-learn and learn with their peers and just build things out to try.

Yeah, so obviously some kind of background in that technology area we're focusing on definitely matters. Whether that's a particular web framework or a mobile framework, if you have some experience with that, that's going to matter. The other is your ability to solve problems. In the computer science space, most problems you come up to and have to figure out a solution for on the spot — everyone Googles and looks on Stack Overflow, that's normal. We don't want to prohibit people from doing that; that's a noble part of software development. So we look for people who can solve those problems and can work with others to solve them. Often at our company, we work with small teams; no one works in a silo by themselves. So can you collaborate with your peers to build these solutions out together, and are you able to do some research and learn along the way to solve that problem? We're not necessarily expecting you to come in with the solutions to every problem — that would be unreasonable, because we haven't even known what those problems are most of the time.

Yeah, so I'd say thankfully I had a lot of time to grow into that role. As I was working at Doximity, I had a lot of opportunities given to me — which I'm very grateful for — to step into leadership slowly and step into different roles over time. A lot of the skills came from many different places; there wasn't just one source that got me those skills. Some of it came from coaching from my colleagues and mentors, others came from reading and looking up resources, others came from going to conferences and listening to other speakers, and a lot of them I learned through failure — trying something, realizing it didn't work, thinking back on why that didn't work out so well, and making sure I don't make the same mistakes twice. So I think I just had a lot of time to learn these things, and it didn't necessarily come from one source, but having the time to work through that really helped me shift my skill sets from being an engineer to being a leader at the company.

Yeah, probably quite a bit. One of the things I realized over time with this role is to embrace chaos a little bit. Your day-to-day is not the same from yesterday to today; new things will pop up. One of the more recent things I've found a little surprising — but in hindsight maybe not so surprising — is reading a lot of legal documents. I wouldn't say I had any experience with that, but it's a different thing to tackle, just to read and understand some contracts and make sure things are worded the way we want. So there are a lot of surprises like that. Nothing bad, it's just you have to embrace that you're going to be learning new things even in that role, and you're going to be shifting from week to week into something totally different.

That's a very good question. For one, I would say we've always had a very good mission at the company. We wanted to help physicians be able to provide care a lot better, and I think that resonates with a lot of people, so that certainly helps us. We have a lot of people working here who have family members who are physicians or someone in the healthcare space, so that definitely helps. The other thing is we were a remote company before that was a popular fad or term everyone was using. We've had people in other countries working with us as full-time employees for a better part of 10 years at this point. Over time, we've learned a lot of the struggles companies have by having some people in office and some remote, and we really ironed out some of those difficulties. That is really meaningful to some employees who do want to work remotely — they're not applying to a company to join and have them figure out how to be remote overnight; they're coming into a company that has successfully done remote work for a long period of time. For example, when the pandemic hit, a lot of companies struggled with the shift to go remote overnight. There was a lot of bad going on in the world, of course, but for us, we were able to switch to being remote overnight and it didn't really have an impact on us because we've always done this. We know how this works, we know what to look out for, we know how to innovate under those conditions. So I think those two things are the main things that set us apart from other companies, comparing ourselves to the big companies in terms of what we can offer that's different.

Yeah, so that's a very good question. I would say my reasons were totally different. I think those were good reasons, but for me, I wasn't necessarily thinking about jumping to another company for any particular reason because I was very happy where I worked. I felt fulfilled in what I was doing. I was very much a builder — I loved building some of these products for our users, and I loved the people that I was building it with. So none of those other things really mattered because I felt fairly happy with what I was doing, and I wasn't trying to go to another company hoping the grass is greener on the other side. The other side of it for me is I like to be continually challenged to learn. I don't want to be doing the same thing for a prolonged period of time. I've had the opportunity here to continually learn new things all the time, and that's what's really kept me going and kept me excited. I didn't feel like I was stuck in the same role doing the same thing for too long. There weren't hard lines I couldn't cross, and that's really kept me excited.

Yeah, so what made me leave: I wanted to work on certain technologies, and when I was applying for jobs with companies that were working on those technologies, there were very few of them, and even then they weren't that attractive to me as a place I wanted to work. This was in Canada, in Toronto in particular. So I was struggling with that for a while, but I kind of let it be until I got a call from a recruiter to come work at a few different companies in San Francisco. I remember the call so vividly just because it was a snowstorm that day, and I was just fed up with the drive back home to Mississauga from downtown Toronto. So I was very interested. I interviewed with a few companies, and they were all doing the stack that I liked, and I wanted to work there. So I kind of picked up and made the decision right then and there without really giving it that much more thought. Now that I've been here for some time, I certainly notice differences, but I'm not going to generalize the US versus Canada because I haven't lived in all parts of the US and Canada. I'll talk about Toronto, where I lived most of my life, and San Francisco, where I've been for the last 11 years. I think working in the tech space in San Francisco is incredibly fast-paced. It's always about what you're going to do next and what you're going to build next, and it doesn't really stop. That's one of the more notable differences I noticed compared to Toronto, which I would also consider a relatively fast pace, but this was on another scale. Other differences: San Francisco is a great multicultural place, but it doesn't compare to Toronto. I still love Toronto for the food options because there are such diverse food options at all different price scales. I do miss that aspect of Toronto. In terms of other differences, San Francisco is a smaller city — the population is around 750,000 to 800,000 — so it feels very small. When the majority of people are in tech, that's kind of all you hear sometimes, which can be a little tiring when you're sitting at a coffee shop and you hear someone talking about a technology and you know all about it, and then the next person is talking about that. It does feel like pretty much everyone's doing the same thing in some ways, whereas in Toronto there was a lot more diversity around that. So those are the differences I see, but they're very different cities, and I can't speak for the rest of the US and Canada.

100%. I would say it's only gotten more homogeneous over the years, and I've noticed it in the 11 years I've been here. And yeah, you're right, it has a lot to do with the cost of living. It's incredibly high, even when you work in tech. So the people who can afford it are people in tech who are choosing to stay, and the people who can't have moved elsewhere where it's more affordable, which has exacerbated the problem quite a bit. So yes, 100% agree with you there.

Can I say turkey? Are they going to say mutton? Rosemary? Yeah, one rules was a close second.

No, I do not miss the winters. I mean, I like winter for snowboarding and other winter sports, but I can do a relatively short three- or four-hour drive to Tahoe and do that during the winter. So I definitely don't miss that.

Yeah, so going through that experience was definitely surreal. I think I learned a lot about the process, which was eye-opening for me. But I would say it was definitely stressful leading up to it. I'm very thankful that my routine and my life are back to normal after that, but it was definitely a great experience. I remember the night before we went public, I could not sleep. I was up all night, completely anxious, thinking about all the things we needed to do or didn't do. The next day I crashed at 8 PM. We had an event, and I backed out of it early and just went to sleep because I was so exhausted. But it was a great experience to be there at the New York Stock Exchange and see the inside. We were very lucky because a lot of it was closed for the pandemic, and they had recently opened some aspects of it, so we were able to be there instead of doing something virtual. So it was a great experience to go through that, but I'm just very thankful we're past that experience and I can be a little less stressed and have my routines back to normal.

Yeah, so if I recall, some information is shared in terms of the date, but it only comes out a certain number of days before. So it's not released early in advance. Obviously I had access to some of that information and had to keep it quiet, but some of that information doesn't come out until a couple days before.

Yeah, that's a good question. I would say I feel relieved. I think that's been the biggest change, because it's 10 years of something you were working on — I wouldn't say working towards, but working on — and the public is going to make its mind up in a matter of an hour or days, and that's stressful. So I definitely felt relieved knowing it was received pretty well. Outside of that, the biggest thing that changed around that time was the fact that I was now working from home, mostly because of the pandemic. I found that incredibly enjoyable — to get an hour to sit down for lunch with my wife or take my dog for a walk. That was the best part about this experience, being able to be at home, in my element, while still getting work done. But outside of that, I wouldn't say it changed that much. If anything, I just feel relieved that we were able to successfully go through that experience.

No, no, I did not. I did buy — I'd say my splurge purchase was a Dyson hair dryer, which I really wanted, so I ended up getting that.

Yeah, I would not necessarily consider myself an entrepreneur in that nature where I want to start companies or projects purely on my own, like yourself, Era. I would rather be part of something than start something completely on my own. So I don't necessarily foresee myself ever building a startup. I don't think that's necessarily been my interest. I always loved building something, and that's why I enjoy being at Doximity so much, where I can focus on the building aspects of it. So I guess that's my answer: I don't really see myself starting something on my own in the future.

Yeah, definitely. My family was a little worried. I didn't know anyone in California or even the West Coast. I was packing my bags within two weeks and moving down there, and that was a big change for myself. They were used to me being home with them, so that was a big change, and I know they worried and stressed about it. So it was mostly around that, and not necessarily about the career choice itself. Of course, joining a small startup also makes people a little worried — it comes with a lot of risk — but that wasn't the main focus. I think my parents didn't want me so far away. But when it comes to friends, most of my friends were very supportive. I think they certainly used it as an opportunity to come visit, so that was great. I still have a lot of friends back in Toronto, so I still come back and visit. So hopefully that answers your question.

He did come down and work with us for a little while.

Oh, so many. I guess if I had to sum it up, they're probably all based around a similar theme. I would say it would be around making too many assumptions and making those assumptions way too early. I think I need to learn to be comfortable taking more risk as long as there are reasonable safeguards, and I necessarily didn't do that all the time. Making assumptions way too early without the facts that back it up can definitely lead you in the wrong direction. I think those would be the summary of all the little and big things that have happened over time.

Take those risks; it'll be fine. I think I was very cautious, and my move from Toronto to San Francisco being one of the few exceptions of taking a risk. I didn't take too many, and I think I could have taken a lot more, and things would have been just fine, especially when you're young where you have the time and energy to be doing those things. So that's what I would say: things will be fine, it'll work out, don't stress about it too much, and take that chance.

That's kind of a weird question. I wouldn't think of it as any kind of legacy, but if there's a way I would want friends and family to remember me, I would say it's hopefully that I had a good time and I was happy. I think that's what I strive for with things that I do, so that would be the legacy I hope they remember me for.

Okay, yeah, that sounds great.

You already know this: it's turkey for sure.

Snakes.

Yeah, yeah.

Public speaking.

Just a couple days ago, I started watching The Gilded Age. I think it's on Apple TV or HBO Max. It takes place during the Gilded Age in New York, and I find it kind of funny — they get so upset with each other but in very proper English, and it's hilarious to watch.

Oh, I can't wait to travel. It's been very little of that over the last few years. A lot of the places I'm itching to travel to, I'm going to get a chance to go in the next couple of months for my honeymoon: Portugal and Spain, and probably Croatia at the end. That's at the top of my list.

I gotta say you, Era. I've been amazed by what you've built with this brand. I remember when you started this out such a long time ago, and I was wondering what you were doing, but I came there just to support you as a friend. To see this balloon up into what it is today, with all these speakers coming on the program and all the content you've been publishing — yeah, I gotta give a shout-out to you.

Favorite childhood memory? Okay. I remember bits of this, but we used to have rabbits back home in Sri Lanka. My mom would take me outside and I would kind of hang out with them, and I immediately have these memories of them running around and getting to pet them.

Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.

I guess the cliché answer would be eat. I love food from all cultures, all types, so just going and experiencing different kinds of food is great. Beyond that, I'd say just being outside — honestly, getting some sun, walking around. One of the fun things we do on the weekends is just walk through our city, and I very much enjoy that casual lifestyle experience.

If you're coming to San Francisco, I would say going to the Mission area and getting a burrito there is what I would recommend. It's even called the Mission burrito — it's kind of where it originated in San Francisco. It ends up being a lot of different things packed into a burrito, so it's like a piece of log that you're eating, but it's so good. My favorite place to get a burrito is Taqueria Cancun in the Mission. Worth checking out. Not much of a sit-down place, but the burritos are amazing.

Well, Tamil movie: I haven't watched that many in a long time, so the movies I'm going to remember are very old. I'm going to go with Baasha. Yes, classic. For English movie, that's tough. I'm going to go with The Sixth Sense.

Yeah, he knows his movies.

That's a tough one. I got a pair of sunglasses that I really wanted.

Not getting more time to spend with family and friends.

My wife, Angelus.

Can't say anything comes to mind right now.

Meditation and better breathing.

Barack Obama. That's a good one.

One thing I was debating whether to do was speak on a podcast like this, because I don't like to put myself out there too much. But I do think it's important for others to hear about other Tamil people, what they've gone through, what they can do, and what they have achieved. So if there's any advice, it's to break out of your comfort zone and do more of this to show what's possible and what other Tamil people have done.

LinkedIn for sure. Send a message or some note, otherwise it might get lost in spam. But LinkedIn would be the best way.