President & Vice Chairman, CUSTOMERS BANCORP INC
The Navigating Disruption Podcast: Season 2, Episode 5: Sam Sidhu
The Accidental Career Back in the 90's, I remember coming into the lunch room to get my coffee and there was Sam flipping ...
About Samvir Sidhu
Samvir Sidhu, President and Vice Chairman of Customers Bancorp, has discussed the bank's positioning as a "startup bank" that operates at the intersection of banking and fintech. In a September 2021 podcast, Sidhu described Customers Bank as a "bank in transition" that is not burdened by legacy technology and plans to lean more heavily into digital banking and banking-as-a-service. He noted that the bank welcomed opportunities to be a first partner or fast follower with fintechs, and highlighted its rapid response during the pandemic, including standing up a digital PPP application within 72 hours that ultimately processed nearly 400,000 loans and $11 billion in funds. Sidhu also discussed the bank's work with the CFPB to build a fairness test for lending, which resulted in a no-action letter, and stated that alternative data points could improve the fairness of the credit system. In a September 2022 podcast, Sidhu reflected on leadership and organizational change, drawing on his earlier career experiences including his time at Rogers Video. He stated that "the way you look at your core competencies defines how you will navigate change" and observed that Netflix saw streaming as an opportunity while his former employer viewed it as a threat. Sidhu emphasized that leadership today requires vulnerability and the courage to admit uncertainty, and that leaders must be open to influence from their teams. He also noted that the pandemic forced organizations to transform rapidly, with changes like curbside pickup occurring in weeks rather than months or years.
Transcript (69 segments)
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Shaquille Barmo0:07
Welcome to the Navigating Disruption podcast. I'm your host, Shaquille Barmo. I'm the CEO of Ocean Blue Strategic and partner with the Summit Group. I'm a coach, consultant, and speaker, and I help leaders, entrepreneurs, and sales professionals make an impact through improved performance. In this podcast, I share insights and interviews with interesting leaders to define practical lessons that you can use to make an impact in the face of uncertainty. We are proud to be supported by the Summit Group, helping companies increase revenue and deepen customer relationships by moving from sales excellence to business relevance through transformative and engaging learning experiences.
Back in the '90s, I remember coming into the lunchroom to get my coffee, and there was Sam flipping through the Province newspaper sports section. He had such a calm and curious demeanor, so we would usually find ourselves in a conversation about something that made me think. Sam Sidhu is now Director of HR with McCarthy Tétrault, one of the largest law firms in Canada. But I learned in this conversation that he started his career in the late '80s by stumbling into a conversation. Fifteen years later, he fell upon his true calling when he wasn't even looking. We chat about his pivots, his experience working in an industry in the midst of disruption, and his perspectives on leadership. Enjoy the conversation. Hi Sam, how are you?
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Sam Sidhu1:39
I'm also how are you?
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Shaquille Barmo1:39
Really great. I trust you're well. Into hard work in a new role in the new year?
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Sam Sidhu1:44
I am. You know what, I'm looking forward to a very good year. No matter what it is, it will be better than the previous year just because we've built some resilience over the last year that hopefully will carry us through 2021. And there's a vaccine here, so that's good. Even in a year like 2020, lots of good things happened to me and lots of good things happened to lots of people I know. So even in these years, lots of good things still happen.
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Shaquille Barmo2:21
Absolutely. Well, let's dive into some of that and some of the good things that have happened to you, Sam. Just so everybody knows, we're going to go back and forth in time, but through our conversation I'd love to learn a bit about your career experiences, your lessons learned, and things you've learned that might actually be helpful to both young people and leaders in the next few years ahead of us. How does that sound?
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Sam Sidhu2:47
It sounds good.
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Shaquille Barmo2:47
Great. So Sam, why don't you tell us a little bit of what you're doing now? What's your current role, what's your current organization?
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Sam Sidhu2:53
Well, it's actually interesting. I'm doing a role, a permanent full-time role at McCarthy Tétrault, one of the leading national law firms in Canada. I went into a new role at the end of November of this last year as the HR Director here for BC, which means I provide HR leadership for our Vancouver office, and I'm also the HR business partner to two national services groups: one is Clients and Markets, the other is IT. Another really cool part of this is the way the model at McCarthy is set up. Our regional HR leaders also play a lead role in what we call our Center of Expertise or COE. So someone is leading compensation, one is on reporting systems, another one leads talent acquisition, and I'm really pleased that mine is performance management and learning. That was a big part of what attracted me to the role, and a real big part of my decision to come aboard was the nice blend of that generalist HR role with senior leadership and also having accountability for that learning piece, which I've always loved and my career has kind of evolved into over time.
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Shaquille Barmo4:25
I mean, your career wasn't always in HR or performance management and learning specifically, but it has definitely grown into that. I've looked at a bit of your profile and I see that's very much evolved.
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Sam Sidhu4:38
That's great. We're going to come back to your current role and what you are excited about. Let's step back in time a little bit, if you don't mind. Can you tell us when you were growing up in BC, in high school, what were your first thoughts of what you wanted to do for a living, or did you even have any thoughts?
No, it was all survival back then, Shaquille. I was like, okay, it was a fear of graduating because graduating meant you had to figure out what you were going to do next. In my family, we did not have a lot of people with advanced education. I come from a very blue-collar family, sawmill workers, salt-of-the-earth type of people. So no, I had no idea. I just defaulted into university because that was a safe place to go while you hopefully tried to figure it out. No plan. At the time, I thought maybe teaching. I respected teachers, but I was a big introvert too, so I didn't know how that would even collide, having to be in front of a classroom. But I thought of teaching. At the time, teaching jobs were tough, so I went into business because everybody said go into business education. But no plan.
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Shaquille Barmo6:21
It was a very different time for us. I think you're probably a couple of years older than me because I say that only because you were already working when I started working at Mohawk where we worked together. But at that time, it wasn't that complicated to think about what career. There weren't so many options. You really didn't have to think about whether you're going to go to university or not first.
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Sam Sidhu6:50
No, you're absolutely right. It was basically university or trades. Trades would be if you knew somebody, you might have a connection and default into that. At university, you didn't really need to know what you were going to go into when you went. Most people applied to a general arts program first, took your undergraduate years to kind of figure it out, and then potentially transfer into a different program. So university was a place you went while you figured it out. And hopefully you would figure it out in university. That didn't actually work for me. But I think it was a different time. I think also there was less pressure back then.
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Shaquille Barmo7:45
But I think there was also less pressure to be somebody back then. It was about getting a good job that would pay for a good standard of living. People still talked about being a job potentially for life, because we're talking about I graduated high school back in '79. So it was about getting a job for life, like your mother or father might have had.
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Sam Sidhu8:16
That's true. It was a different mentality. Today, I think for young people it's really about being their best self. They talk about things like what's going to make me happy, because we didn't talk about what would make us happy. We just talked about can I get a paycheck. Can I get a paycheck and can I make sure at least I don't hate what I'm doing? That's it. Can I get some enjoyment out of my work? There was a little bit of can I fulfill my potential, but it was still superficial. It was really just if I studied marketing, can I go get a job where I get to apply what I learned? That would be great. But today, I think students are like, that's what I'm working towards, applying what I do, what I know, what I'm interested in doing.
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Shaquille Barmo9:20
Well, that is wonderful to me, by the way. I think it's wonderful that that's the mindset to do what you love, to have those elements in your job because you spend a lot of time at work. Most of us still spend a lot of time at work, either physically or mentally, so to be able to love it or at least be interested in it. The other thing back in our time is there weren't really stories of young entrepreneurs, tech startups, people that started businesses in the garage. Basically we had Steve Jobs and Bill Gates as our examples, and they were still very young at that time. But there seem to be so many more examples now of people who have made it very big very young. I wonder if that's adding to the pressure that young people might feel to do something big, to make a name for themselves. What do you think?
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Sam Sidhu10:25
It's funny you say that. I've got kids myself, they're young adults now, and we've talked about that. I think it does influence them because they can pick up their cell phone, which they all have next to them almost 24 hours a day, and they can see on Instagram or whatever other things they use to follow people, so many examples of people making it big that are their age or younger who've had an idea, who particularly may not even have talent, and are somehow making it big. There's an expectation that why am I not making it big? I'm as hard as or smarter than these people. So I think it's an unhealthy expectation that is out there, that people somehow feel that if they are not doing what these others are doing, they're not living up to their fullest. Which is unhealthy because exceptions are exceptions for a reason. If we were all an exception, there'd be no such thing as an exception.
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Shaquille Barmo11:30
You're pointing out some challenges of being young today, but there are also some positive things that are available to young people now that weren't before. Before we dive into that, let's put a pin there because I do really want to come back to some of the positive things. But you didn't know what you wanted to study, and you were hoping it would expose itself in university. You came out with a business degree?
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Sam Sidhu12:01
I came out with two degrees: a Business Administration degree from Simon Fraser University, and a Bachelor of Arts in Economics. The Economics degree was my first, but just to show you how little I knew, I declared for Economics because I was getting good grades in it. I thought, if I'm getting good grades, this should be the way I go. Then in my end of third year, beginning of fourth year, I thought, oh my god, I hate this. I'm not enjoying Economics. I actually started to worry about what my career would look like. I thought it looked pretty dry. So I went to see a faculty advisor, and I got some great advice. They said I was in a very fortunate position because a lot of my courses went both ways. I could go into Business Administration, which is broader, marketing, finance, accounting. So I did two more years and got a degree in Business Administration. I appreciated that more in the workings of business, but I still didn't know what I wanted to do.
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Shaquille Barmo13:37
So you graduated with those two degrees, and then you did what everybody else did back then. You looked at ads in the newspaper, and there was a campus office where you could see postings. You applied for a few entry-level positions, typically in sales. How did that go?
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Sam Sidhu14:05
I applied for a few and interviewed terribly. I didn't get called back. About the same time, I got married, so I had tremendous pressure to find a job. It was a time of great stress for me without a plan. My wife had a relative who worked for Mohawk Oil, so that's the story of how I got my job there. One of the things I believe is that you have to tell people what's going on in your world. By sharing my challenges and making it public, this relative said, 'Well, we're trying to get more university graduates interested in our company. Is that something you might be interested in?' So I started the conversation with Mohawk. Back then, the idea of seeking mentors and seeking advice about your career really didn't exist. We talk a lot about mentors now, but back then it was your career counselor, your faculty advisor, your parents. If you had immigrant parents, they didn't know what to tell you. So I was lucky enough to figure out early to share what I was going through with someone else who might shed some light on it. Share it positively. I told a story about who I am, where I am with my challenges, but I'm really excited about moving forward. I don't know how to do that right now, but I'm a firm believer that wherever I go, they're going to get a guy who really wants to do well, with a great work ethic. So I pitched my attributes, not skills, because I didn't really have any skills. I pitched my attitude, and that's what this person connected with.
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Shaquille Barmo17:20
Where do you think that mindset came from, knowing to pitch attributes and to be positive?
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Sam Sidhu17:33
Some of it is role models. My wife has been my supporter. We've been married almost 35 years now, and she's been in my corner every day. She believed in me, and when I shared my struggles, she'd say, 'But you've got all this going for you. You need to talk about that person, not what you don't have. Talk about what you do have because that's marketable. Companies will want people who are genuine, who have a good work ethic, who want to learn. They won't know that unless you talk about who you really are.' That was great advice. My dad was a blue-collar guy, and he was a role model of showing up for work and giving effort. He used to say, 'You have to earn what you're paid. You have a commitment to your work.' So I talked about that.
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Shaquille Barmo18:47
We were really lucky to have those kinds of role models. Whether your dad was a business person and my dad was a blue-collar laborer, you could see the return for actual physical effort. There's something about that that sets a great example.
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Sam Sidhu19:06
Yeah. My dad used to say, 'No one ever came and grabbed me off my sofa and made me go into this place and apply for a job. I came in wanting to work here. So if I come in wanting to work here, I need to show up with a commitment to do the work.' That stuck with me forever.
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Shaquille Barmo19:24
You married well. She sounds like she was very wise back then.
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Sam Sidhu19:30
Yeah, I married well. It's like anything, when you have people who support you and believe in you, because there's very little in life you can do alone. My wife has been tremendous support, but I've also been very fortunate to have a great network of people who are believers and supporters. You have to cultivate that over time, but you also have to show up and live up to it. Your reputation is your brand.
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Shaquille Barmo20:28
Now I'm going to fast forward. You and I met in the lunchroom of Mohawk Oil's headquarters in Burnaby, BC, years later in the early '90s when I took a job at head office. But prior to that, you ended up managing a Mohawk gas station?
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Sam Sidhu20:52
Yeah, I managed three. I started in late '86, early '87. That was when they were doing something called the District Manager Training Program. A couple of us came straight out of university into assistant manager jobs, and within a couple of years we were supposed to become district managers. I actually did it for six years. I managed three service stations and never did apply for the internal district manager position. I found that I liked managing people, and I liked being related to something where I could see the immediate connection to a customer. I enjoyed the responsibility and accountability for profit. I think part of it might be that I got comfortable doing it, so I didn't look for change. If I might go back and do that differently, I would say that too much comfort prevents growth. I got comfortable, and if I were to go back, I might look at that differently and ask what I really wanted. But in the moment, it served me well and gave me a great foundation. I learned so much about people and human nature and performance management.
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Shaquille Barmo22:50
When you work at a service station, it's like being the neighborhood bartender. You see the best and worst of people, both employees and customers, at different stages and walks of life. If you're a keen observer of people, you can learn a lot.
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Sam Sidhu23:14
There's a great fundamental in having to do work where you are actually accountable for something beyond yourself. I couldn't just do my own work and go home. I was accountable for a multi-million dollar business and work teams of up to 20 to 25 people. That forces you to have a higher level of self-accountability. It was great grounding.
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Shaquille Barmo23:45
One of the locations you managed, Airport Mohawk, was one of the busiest and highest volume service stations in the Lower Mainland.
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Sam Sidhu24:00
At the time it was very commercial. Most of the other stations were more neighborhood convenience stores, but the airport had commercial accounts for propane and diesel fuel. Trucker units would come in, so we had higher volume. It was a learning experience going from a neighborhood store to that. I succeeded two very successful managers, so I learned about expectations. It was a really good on-the-job experience that I still draw on today.
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Shaquille Barmo24:51
If you talk to anybody and say working in a gas station doesn't seem like a high-profile, prestigious job, but in your experience, you're grateful for that time where you were focused on learning and exchanging ideas.
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Sam Sidhu25:17
That was my thing too. When I graduated university with two degrees and here I was wearing a uniform and running a gas station, there were people who would say I sure had underachieved. I would say, 'You graduated and you're a marketing coordinator. I'd like to see you try to run this multi-million dollar business and manage 25 people.' The education I got in that role was invaluable. It taught me not to define myself by the optics of things, but also not to judge others.
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Shaquille Barmo26:24
I remember one night going out for dinner after a shift at the gas station. I had grease under my fingernails, and one of my friends made fun of me for it. But it was a point of pride that I was working with my hands. That incident taught me not to define myself by my friend's view.
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Sam Sidhu27:06
Absolutely.
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Shaquille Barmo27:06
So you spent time in retail operations and came to head office. When Mohawk was acquired by Husky, what did you do?
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Sam Sidhu27:31
At that time, I was in a regional marketing manager position which I had done for about two years. Husky's process was to evaluate people and decide if they would offer jobs. They offered me a position as an Advertising Promotions Manager in their Calgary office, which I declined. I knew I didn't want to move to Calgary and also I knew I didn't want to remain in marketing. I had enjoyed it, but I knew it wasn't where I wanted to go. What I missed was the connection to P&L and the people part wasn't as big in that role. So when I left, I had to figure out what to do next. I did an exercise where I took a piece of paper, divided it in half. On the left, I listed the things I'd done and my skills. On the right, what I wanted in my next job. It wasn't marketing. It was people-related business acumen, P&L management, interesting industry, probably consumer product versus manufacturing. I sent my resume to search agencies and told them I wanted to go back into an area manager or district manager type role. I got a job as a district manager at Rogers Video in 1998.
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Shaquille Barmo29:57
That would have been pre-Blockbuster and definitely pre-Netflix.
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Sam Sidhu30:04
No, Blockbuster was our biggest competitor. We were the largest Canadian-owned video retail chain. Netflix was not even an idea at the time. When they did start, it was with mail-to-home DVD rentals.
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Shaquille Barmo30:45
Talk about disruption. That's one of the industries people write about as an illustration of disruption. What was it like working in that business until it wound down?
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Sam Sidhu31:03
There were two different minds. A fair number of people saw the end coming, and some just denied it. In hindsight, we didn't evolve our business model. We stayed with a traditional brick-and-mortar retail model for video home entertainment rental and sales. In the last couple of years, we tried to diversify. Some people thought our core competency was traditional brick-and-mortar retailing, so whatever we did had to go through our stores. Others saw the opportunity to look at what we actually do, which is providing entertainment to consumers. If we could have stopped there, it would have opened up the whole world of how we can do that. Businesses that are successful reinvent themselves. Blockbuster couldn't do it, we didn't do it. Netflix saw the potential in streaming and jumped in, whereas we saw it as a threat.
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Shaquille Barmo33:59
It's so interesting how the perspective changes everything. Was it leadership at Rogers Video and Blockbuster versus leadership at Netflix that made the difference?
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Sam Sidhu34:13
It was a mindset and perspective. We looked at it as 'look what's happening to us,' and eventually we were just squeezing the last dollar out. Another complication was that we were part of a much larger communications organization that was evolving its own business strategy, primarily cable and wireless becoming king. Rogers' retail stores are now wireless stores. They evolved, but not through our leadership at that time.
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Shaquille Barmo35:29
The theme of this podcast is navigating disruption. A huge lesson is to not take your eye off the changes in how your customers behave. You can either view a pandemic as something happening to your business, or ask how your customers' lives are changing and what you can do to serve them better.
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Sam Sidhu35:57
There's a lot more written about transformation and disruption now. Back then, thought leaders were just making inroads. We were still talking about Jim Collins' Good to Great and defining core competencies. The evolution in thinking was just starting. The availability of broadband internet connections started the changes. You either saw the implications of what that would be 10 or 15 years down the road, or you didn't.
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Shaquille Barmo37:15
Against this backdrop of disruption, you pivoted significantly from retail operations into HR. How did that happen?
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Sam Sidhu37:34
It's my now 20-year accidental career. It happened through a performance review. At Rogers Video, in my second year, my director of operations, Linda Smith, asked about my future development. I said I knew it wasn't marketing or merchandising. It was in management connected to the business and working with people. She said, 'What about HR?' I said, 'That's left field.' I hadn't had much interaction with HR, and I didn't find them high value at the time because they couldn't relate to the challenges I faced as a business leader. She explained that they wanted to bring someone with business acumen into the HR team for a year-long contract. They thought of me because I was known for being engaged on the people side of getting results. I came home, talked to my wife, and she thought it was a great opportunity to learn. I took the contract, and if it didn't work, they could backfill my old position. I found I really enjoyed it. Within six months, we hired a director of training and development who influenced my thinking about people, talent, and assessment. My career evolved from there by choice.
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Shaquille Barmo40:50
There's been a lot of debate about the value of performance management and reviews. That's a great example of when it's done well with a leader invested in the best thing for the individual and the company.
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Sam Sidhu41:11
It goes back to the idea that when something happens, do you do what you've always done, or do you ask yourself what the possibility is in this? Coaching teaches us to ask, 'What is the possibility of this?'
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Shaquille Barmo42:04
You had a career in HR. I'd love to finish our conversation by connecting the dots between what's happening in business and the world today and the importance of the skills you've learned in HR and coaching. What's your view on the relationship between coaching and what's happening right now?
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Sam Sidhu42:34
During this period of transition with COVID, I left my previous position and engaged with two other fellows to start an organizational HR consulting company. One of the areas we're focusing on is helping organizations transform, and coaching is a big part of that. Coaching is different because it's all about possibility. As a skill set, it's critical in leadership. We often assume that as people move up, they need to coach less, focusing on strategic thinking, critical thinking, being a decision maker. We forget that coaching is always required. Coaching is about holding the other person as capable. Many senior leaders build workarounds around solutions because they don't deal with people's actual capability. They don't know how to coach. Businesses change, and sometimes we assume we need a new person without asking if we can coach someone to grow. We leave behind tremendous potential that could be unlocked if we understood the power of coaching. Coaching allows you to see the potential in someone, not just what you know, and helps them see the potential within themselves.
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Shaquille Barmo46:15
When you say coaching is about seeing the possibility, it's very much aligned with the possibility available when the world is under disruption. It's the same mindset that goes to seeing the possibility in your business situation.
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Sam Sidhu46:54
You nailed it. Look at the pandemic. Businesses that did well, like curbside pickup, probably had companies talking about it for six to nine months before COVID. Then COVID hit, and they had it in two weeks. Circumstance forced organizations to transform overnight. Most of us think we're not going back because there are huge efficiencies and possibilities realized through this disruption. Organizations that will be most prosperous are those that don't wait for disruption to happen to them. They force their own disruption by asking, 'How would we operate, how would we thrive under such circumstances?' Every one of those things are questions. It's the questioning mindset. The secret sauce is not getting stuck with the question but saying, 'Let's treat this with our skill set about getting stuff done. How do we make it happen?' Organizations that have come to the forefront asked the question and then leaped into action. The doing is fast; it's the agreement on what's the right thing to do that's the make-or-break moment. Great leaders are comfortable making hard decisions with less information. They say, 'I see the trend, I see the possibility. We're going to commit to this. Now come back with a plan.' They move from navel-gazing to commitment.
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Shaquille Barmo50:49
It sounds like we're backing into a definition of leadership. The leader has to be the one who can see that something is changing, set a tone for the organization about how to respond, and rely on the talent and capabilities of the people around them to bring their best to act on that change.
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Sam Sidhu51:26
And if I don't see it, I'm open to others seeing it. In my video experience, the leader didn't see it, but there were others who saw it and were unable to influence the leader. As a leader, it's almost more important to be open to seeing it, whether it's through me or others. Always be open to collecting signals and insights. Ask the right questions because someone in your organization might see something way before you do.
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Shaquille Barmo52:21
That's pretty cool. On one hand, it takes pressure off the leader, but on the other, it puts pressure because there's a whole new set of skills and vulnerabilities and courage needed to be open to that.
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Sam Sidhu52:41
I agree. Vulnerability is a big part of leadership. It's not safe for leaders to admit they don't know it all. When you fake it, it's not the optimum way to run a business. The vulnerability to say, 'I don't know what's happening on the shop floor, so I'll go find out,' or 'I trust you,' that's huge. It goes back to trust. I trust my team to tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear. There are too many 'Emperor's New Clothes' scenarios where people say what the leader wants to hear but tell the truth outside the room.
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Shaquille Barmo53:50
The best organizations have those conversations in front of the leader because the leader is open and encourages them.
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Sam Sidhu53:56
I think we're seeing examples of old-school leadership—fake it till you make it—becoming less and less. When it does happen, there are people willing to call it out.
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Shaquille Barmo54:23
There's a term I hear a lot: managerial courage. The courage to put your hand up and say, 'I have a different perspective.' But how you use your voice in a way that is non-threatening is a skill we should be teaching our upcoming leaders.
We're at the end of our time, but if we can take one more minute, let's come back to the positives for young people entering the workforce now. This awareness of what good leadership looks like is a positive. What other advice or hope would you give to young people coming into their careers?
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Sam Sidhu55:54
I think they're already doing it. They're more willing to take risks. Don't always think vertical; think lateral. Different experiences broaden your skill set. Think about the value you offer. It's not just what's in it for you. Ask, 'What am I going to bring to an organization that will make them value me enough to invest in me and give me opportunities?' On the leadership side, understand that when you go into a leadership role, you have a high level of accountability to those you lead. You influence their job satisfaction on a different level than you did as a peer. Take that very seriously. Be self-aware, work on your gaps, don't hide them. Embrace them as part of your journey. Nobody has it all. Even the most successful person has something they're working on or someone supporting them. So being self-aware is hugely important.
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Shaquille Barmo58:06
That's a great place to end this fantastic conversation. Sam, I really enjoyed it, particularly the last 20 minutes about the future of leadership. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and being so open and vulnerable with your learnings. I wish you all the very best.
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Sam Sidhu58:24
Same to you, Shaquille. Thanks for the opportunity. I love your content and look forward to hearing these podcasts. Thanks so much.
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Shaquille Barmo58:42
Take care, talk soon.
To both leaders and businesses, but also for you as an individual in your career going through disruptions, how you look at your core competencies defines how you will navigate the change. Here are some takeaways. First, be open. Be willing to share what you're going through, what you're looking to do, what you're uncertain about, but always do it positively. That's how Sam stumbled into his first job. He learned from his dad to show up ready to work and earn your money. We talked about disruption and his experience at Rogers Video. One key takeaway was that the way you look at your core competencies defines how you will navigate change. He also talked about how leaders of tomorrow need to be vulnerable and recognize that at times they need their team to help point them in the right direction. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please write a review or share it. I want to say thank you to one of my favorite bands, Late Night Conversations, for sharing their song 'Chaos' with me. You can learn more about them on Instagram at LNC Connected.