16: Vihan Sharma - The CRO's Ascent: Boldly Redefining Ad Tech & Retail Collaboration | The Winwire

So, I think it's a one meeting can change your life. And it is inherently important to me that me, my team, everybody who I work with actually puts the customer outcomes first and foremost before anything. That meeting was really extremely important in my career, I think because it completely transformed the way I looked.

Thank you Michael. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I joined Acxiom in a product role actually, working on data products. And even that was very new to me because in my previous roles, I was much more focused on the digital marketing side of the equation. So much more trying to build acquisition products for growing traffic. I mean, this is like 20 years ago. So doing much more of an ad ops side of the equation, et cetera. And my first job, by the way, was Traffic Manager. I still remember this because a lot of the understanding of the ecosystem for me comes from those days where I was trafficking campaigns on 24/7 Real Media back then, the Open AdStream ad server. So I really was not in sales. I was very much more on the product side of the equation. When I joined Acxiom, I had the opportunity to learn about data and I moved through the ranks and became the leader for our product organization outside of the US. And I would be called to these client meetings very often, right? The MD of the UK would say, 'Hey, we have an important client meeting. It will be good to represent product.' And like any product person, I was proud of the products we were building. So I would go and I would just say, 'Oh, LiveRamp or Acxiom does these five things, and here is why we are good.' But I remember very clearly, I think this was a Telco customer in the UK office. They were sitting there and I go and I do this 15 minute thing on, 'Oh yeah, here are the investment areas, this is what we are doing,' et cetera. And I said, 'Do you have any questions?' And they go, 'Well, thanks for sharing your roadmap. I just don't know how it actually makes any difference to me.' It was a really shocking moment. A transformative moment for me because that is kind of like the day where I said whatever I've been doing so far is actually people being respectful and nice and not really telling me back that they didn't find my 15 minute pitch to be the greatest thing because it didn't really connect to their business outcomes. And very quickly I understood that being a great product person means caring about the outcomes you can deliver to your customers. And if you think about sales, you cannot be a great salesperson if you cannot deliver the outcomes to your customers. I mean, it's basically the same thing. And I think that meeting was really extremely important in my career because it completely transformed the way I looked. And I think if you have spoken to people about me, they will tell you one thing. If they don't say anything else, it's that I am very customer focused. I do not actually want to go and sell somebody something if I don't believe that we are driving value. And it is inherently important to me that me, my team, everybody who I work with actually puts the customer outcomes first and foremost before anything. So I think it's a one meeting can change your life. It probably, yes. I think that's probably the meeting which completely transformed who I am today.

Okay. Sounds good. So let me set the scene here first. So we are talking about 2014, 2015. LiveRamp has just been acquired by Acxiom, but LiveRamp is not really available in the European markets. At this time, we had just restructured our Acxiom business, so we were a very small team, about seven to eight people. And this was the first time for me to actually run a P&L as an MD of a company, because prior to this I was always in a product role. So different stakes, I would say. And this deal is very important because everybody in the small team who has stayed is counting on us to drive growth. So it is important for that. It is important for us to position the company in a way which is meaningful for the industry. So that's number two. And number three, this is very much like the marquee client you can sign in Europe so that when we launch LiveRamp, we have a successful case study to talk about in the market. So that is kind of the stake of this deal. And we are going to talk about Carrefour, which is the second largest retailer in the world after Walmart, obviously the largest retailer in France, and a very large company. Versus us who are a team of seven to eight people.

Yeah. So the Carrefour story is actually in three parts. We have worked with them for the last 10 years. So I'm going to tell you three key important moments of our partnership with Carrefour. Let me start with the very beginning. And like any deal, it is about people. And we were very fortunate to meet an individual named Michel Bellanger, who just joined Carrefour in 2014 from GroupM, and he was working for the merchant services side of the business. And the merchant services is like a smaller group within Carrefour, whose whole objective is to provide additional services to the CPG brands in return for creating new incremental revenues. And he very quickly understands that Carrefour has a unique data asset. They have the loyalty card program with about 15 million households in France, which gives them a lot of unique data, which can be valuable both for Carrefour's marketing initiatives, but also for CPG brands they want to work with. However, in 2014, across the teams at Carrefour, there was low maturity levels around understanding how this first party data can be leveraged for better outcomes and better customer experiences across the board. And Michel basically asked for our support to help educate different teams across the ecosystem so that they can understand the value of LiveRamp. And within Acxiom back then, there is an individual who is still at the company. His name is Nicolas Dore. He is an expert in the retail business and he goes on this path to try to educate different folks and different business units within Carrefour to understand the value of what we were trying to do. So once the education is done, they still are hesitant because it's very theoretical. They understand the value of using their first party data, but they don't really know how to put this in practice and define what success looks like for them. And we have another colleague whose name is Fatima Aliane, who back then is running data science for us in the company, and she comes up with a very simple idea, which is, 'Hey, if we can show you the impact of your advertising dollars on actual in-store sales, would that be something interesting for you?' And almost every single business unit we worked with, the data analytics teams, the marketing teams, the media teams, they all agreed that this was something that they can take upstairs to their bosses and say their investment in the media they are doing is actually going to lead to better outcomes. And so we started our journey with Carrefour by helping them build the first kind of sales lift capability. So we took the impression level data on digital channels that Carrefour was advertising on, tied it to the actual transactions happening in the store. And I think that was kind of the turning point because they could very quickly see that the value that LiveRamp was driving was helping them understand how they can optimize their media spend in order to deliver better outcomes for their company. And this allowed us to actually get the buy-in across different teams and sign our first, this was about a million dollar contract. So the first million dollar ACV for LiveRamp in the market. And that is kind of the start of this journey.

The second phase really is about the launch of retail media in France. And so I would say by 2018, you had Carrefour teams who were already trying to partner with CPG brands running some specific co-op, co-branded campaigns. However, the CPG brands kept asking Carrefour, 'Hey, it's great that we are able to run these single campaigns, but we would love to have access to your data. And if you can provide us with more granular data for helping us build audiences and provide us transaction data for measurement, we are willing to invest significant amount of dollars in the Carrefour programs.' The problem though was Carrefour's security team, their executive teams were not really very sure how this data can be used, whether they will lose control, whether they will actually be able to generate incremental dollars. And on the CPG side, it was kind of the same framework, right? CPG brands are like, 'Oh, Carrefour is a big client of ours. If we give them all our media data, can they actually use it to negotiate better deals with us?' So there was a huge kind of friction point between Carrefour, the retailer, and CPG brands who are kind of like the suppliers in this ecosystem. So very quickly we identified that there is an opportunity here. There's an opportunity for us to go and say, can we build a platform on top of the LiveRamp capabilities back then, which provides transparency and control of the data between both parties so that they can start collaborating together. And so we faced two challenges here. One is on the Carrefour side, one on the LiveRamp side. So let's start with the Carrefour journey. Michel is still there. We are now able to access more the C-level suite at Carrefour France. And there is this lady, Jeanne Dubarry, who is in charge of the digital transformation of Carrefour. And we sat down with her to identify what the opportunity is. And it was kind of very simple to do because they were trying to launch an advertising business very much focused around the Facebooks and the Googles of this world. And I think if you remember, and still today, Meta uses a KPI which is average advertising revenue per user. And if you apply that same principle to the Carrefour data set, which is so prominent, you can show the total opportunity that is in front of Carrefour. And you have to understand, they run a business which is over $80 billion in annual revenues. And for them to find this to be a meaningful investment, they needed to understand what is the opportunity for them to grow their gross merchandise value in their stores. They wanted to see whether this partnership can lead to accelerated e-commerce sales, and whether they can drive incremental high margin revenues, which are important for a retailer. And so Jeanne at this point hired Accenture to start building out a business overview and the requirements from a human capital perspective of what Carrefour would need to actually be successful. And we had some very good folks at Accenture. There's an individual named Pierre Santamaria, who ran the whole business planning exercise. He was very challenging for us because he was working on behalf of Carrefour. So he was trying to say, 'The Carrefour total opportunity is X, but the LiveRamp cost should be minimal.' Right? So we had a bit of friction there, but they were good partners because they were able to convince the executive suite at Carrefour France that this is something worth investing in. And so we ticked off the business outcome element of the deal with Jeanne and with the Accenture team. Then comes the issue around security and transparency. And the person back then who was running the security function at Carrefour, his name is Carlos Martin. And Carlos is very busy, obviously, because he's running a very big business, and so he gives us an opportunity to come in and highlight what guarantees that we can provide from a security and privacy perspective for him to feel secure. And I think what I really appreciated about LiveRamp back then is how nimble we were, because within like 30 minutes of that request, we were able to get our chief security officer over to France to have a meeting with Carlos and his teams to help them understand that we are first and foremost a privacy-first organization which takes customer data very, very seriously. And I think that helped us negate some of the fears that the Carrefour teams had in terms of leveraging their data for partnering with the CPG brands. So that was really on the Carrefour side. We then had to convince our folks internally at LiveRamp that building a capability on top of our current infrastructure which allows control and transparency is the right thing. And frankly, I think back then there was no idea of what this concept of a clean room is, et cetera, and we very much had to do an internal exercise and convince obviously Scott, who's our CEO, but also the head of product, the CFO, which is Warren, who was really bought into this project. So it was kind of a journey internally as well for me to convince our teams that this was the right thing for LiveRamp to do. The problem is when you only have one client, it looks like we are trying to build a custom solution for one customer. And so the challenge internally was to identify the overarching opportunity. Because if you go and say this is valid for Carrefour, it is as valid for Tesco's, it is as valid for Boots in the UK and the large retailers in the US. So once you look at the opportunity, you say, if this can work at Carrefour, this can pretty much work across the retail ecosystem, which is how we landed on creating the first clean room of the industry, which was called Safe Haven. So very fortunate to have great leaders at LiveRamp who actually bought into this vision. But we still need to get the deal over the line. So this is being run at the CEO of Carrefour France level. And Noel is somebody who has been at Carrefour for 30 years. And obviously as a CEO of a large organization, he doesn't really have much time. And so it was really very important for us to bring to the table key criteria that will be of interest to him. So we validated with his team that there is no security issue, number one. We validated with Accenture that they have a business opportunity that they need to embrace. And third, we kind of called out that if they are not going to do that, they're going to be further behind more digitally first capabilities like the Amazons of this world. And all this happened during a dinner we hosted for them in Paris.

We are sitting at this dinner with the CEO of Carrefour France, a much bigger company. And it is myself, Warren Jenson, and Frederic Jouve who is back then the MD of our APAC business, but he's also known Noel for some time because Noel was in APAC for Carrefour at some stage. And we keep on talking and we are seeing that the Carrefour team is interested, but they're not really making a call whether they should do this deal or not. And I think the conversation started by Frederic. It's like, 'Well, do you really want to do this? Or you are just going to be waiting and not invest in this capability and stay behind in this retail media game?' And Warren, who actually prior to joining LiveRamp was at Amazon, helped Noel understand that if they do not move quickly, they will be very far behind in this retail media game. And we basically said, 'Look, if it is not you who's going to do this, we can actually go and build out this capability for somebody else. And we gave you the first shot. But if you're not going to do it, you're not going to do it.' And very quickly, I think that changed the perspective of Noel, who basically saw that if he has a first mover advantage, if he doesn't really take this, then there will be other players who will go after this opportunity and it'll be a negative impact for Carrefour. So that dinner was a unique moment in our journey with Carrefour because it allowed us to convince the main stakeholder, the main decision maker who we didn't really have much time with, but who ultimately is the person who will make the call, that this is something that the Carrefour executives would like to go forward with. And like we were at Acxiom LiveRamp, we're very excited about this opportunity. Excited because this is something really new, excited that we are maybe about to shape what the industry will look like in the future. And so we get to contracting, which again is not an easy task when you're talking with a very large company. So let's say it took about three months once we had the go ahead to start getting a contract for signature. And Warren, who's the CFO of LiveRamp and president of the international business, came to Paris, is with me in the car, and going to sign this deal in Massy where Carrefour is based. And while we are in this car, we got a call from Noel Prioux's assistant who says, 'Hey, I have to cancel this meeting because Noel has something else which came up, which is important.' And for us, it was kind of a complicated situation because we had done all this work. We are looking at the whole opportunity that we have convinced internally at LiveRamp, and to find ourselves in a position where they are basically canceling a meeting at the last minute is very surprising. However, what we understood is that they actually were having a change in management. And so the whole deal became at risk again because there was going to be a new management team coming to Carrefour. So that's a messy situation. Nobody's excited after all the work that we have done over the six, nine months in order to educate everybody up and down the organization to find ourselves in a place that we might not actually sign the deal. But we said that this opportunity, whether it is Carrefour or somebody else, is worth us going after. So we started building the Safe Haven product, which is the first clean room in this market. And said, okay, well when the new management team comes in, it'll take them a couple of months to get on board. And once they do, we'll try to revisit the situation. I think we got in a way lucky because the new management team comes in at Carrefour and Amélie Oudéa, who took over as chief digital transformation officer, and another person called Edouard Mailfait, who took the role of chief data officer of Carrefour, and both of them are very savvy from a digital perspective. Their whole agenda is to drive digital transformation for Carrefour. And we were very quickly able to partner with Edouard and with Amélie to get the second part of our deal signed and start the retail media business for Carrefour in France. So a lot of challenges at this time, but got to a place where they bought into Safe Haven. We created a new complete category, which is now called Clean Rooms, and we are powering the biggest retail media business in France.

We were again in a place where we were like, oh my God, we have worked so much. We acquired this company. And we are again finding ourselves in a place where this might not actually happen. But we have been very fortunate that the person who came after Elodie Perthuisot was again very forward looking, very much bought into this idea that data is driving a lot of value for Carrefour and their CPG brands. And she really wanted to accelerate this project. So she rallied around the Carrefour team who were focused on this, partnered with us quite successfully as soon as she took on board the new role, and we were able to get this deal closed. And let me talk to you about the day the deal closed because I think it is funny and interesting. So we are on 31st of March, I think 2020, just about when Covid has just started. And we are basically waiting for the end of the quarter. So 31st of March is the end of the quarter for LiveRamp. I have this deal, and by this time I was MD of LiveRamp in Europe, and this deal is actually in the forecast, and every day that goes by since beginning of January, we see the deal moving slower and slower and slower. And I'm sitting in this last day call with some of the execs at LiveRamp, going through how we are going to be closing our quarter, and while I am doing this deal, it's like 10:30 at night, I receive the signed contract, which completely changed the way we felt about the quarter. So all in all, it took us time, a lot of challenges, but because we were delivering value to Carrefour, we were able to get the deal over the line. So that's kind of the whole story.

Yeah, I mean, look, for me personally in my career, I think because of the sheer value of the Carrefour deal, you have to understand, if you look at the advertising market in the US, we are talking about a $160 billion market. If you look at France, we are talking about back then about a five to $6 billion market, right? So the scales are very different. And for us to be able to go and sign a multimillion dollar deal with a retailer where the retailer saw us as a strategic partner at the executive level actually allowed me personally to have the confidence to go and say, this can be replicated across the board because it's not an easy sell, but once you do make the sell, it completely gives you credibility in the market to go and talk to others and replicate this over and over again. Right? So I think that's kind of number one. Number two, it also opened the door for me to actually lead Safe Haven in the US market. So soon after the Carrefour deal, we basically said we are not going to just focus on Carrefour and the European markets. This is an opportunity too good for us to leave it on the table. And Warren actually asked me to go and run what we would call an incubator within LiveRamp, which will be Safe Haven for the US market. Which led to us creating a dedicated team in the US, allowed me to partner with our US teams across the board and gave me much more insight into our US business, US customers, the way they think, which ultimately allowed me to be in my role today. So I can directly link the Carrefour deal with my career. So I think that's kind of number one. And on the industry side, I'm very proud to say that we actually created the first clean room of the market, even though we didn't call it a clean room, because we saw very quickly that this whole notion of collaboration is going to be important for delivering great customer outcomes and great customer experiences because nobody can have all the data on a consumer, right? The consumer has their own way of interacting with different brands, different media properties, different publishers, and in order for you to connect the dots, you are not just going to bring all the data in one single data lake. What you will need is to connect the dots in a privacy-first way, which is what the industry is going towards now, and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to actually make that first move.

Look, I think selling in Europe, if I'm very candid, is a lot harder than it is to sell something in a market as dynamic as the US, right? And there are a few reasons for it. First, inherently decision making processes in Europe are much longer, significantly much longer. People are risk averse, so they would not take a risk if they do not believe that they're doing the right things. And so it's easy for them to trust the big companies like the Googles and the Facebooks or Meta. It is hard for them to actually go and say, yeah, I want to work with a small company which I've maybe never heard of. So it is a very different kind of risk profile. And third, they want to not only get their sign off, they want to have a committee kind of sign off. So they need multiple people to come and say yes. And especially in the industry we are in, because if you are talking about customers' first party data, there are real requirements around security, privacy, and those components. So the sales process is much harder because you have many more steps and the time it takes is longer. And for us, it was very clear very quickly that at every step of the way we have to talk the language of the customer. So if they are in a specific vertical, what are the key KPIs? You need to make them feel like you know their business and that you can be a strategic partner for them. So I think that's kind of number one learning from Europe, which if you apply it to the US it actually makes sense, right? When you're in front of a client, you have to talk their language and be ready to articulate the value that you are driving for their business. So I think that's kind of number one. Number two, I was fortunate in a way because I had the support, as I mentioned, of Warren and Scott, who really, when they saw the opportunity, the reaction that we were getting in the market with somebody like Carrefour, they said yes. I mean, this is a good way for us to navigate the challenges we have in international markets because this will allow us to create a much more coherent and sustainable business going forward. So to convince the leaders out in the US that this is the right thing to do is really hard. But once you get the buy-in, it makes life easier.

I agree. You have to be bold in your, and you have to be convinced that you are doing the right thing. I mean, if I was not convinced that this was the right thing, I don't think I would have fought internally for us to actually do this. I would not have spent so much time with the different Carrefour teams with all the ups and downs we have had. And inherently, when you are like, this was the shot, if we played this right, we would actually have an incredible business opportunity. And I think once you are, I'll tell you something from my, I grew up in India. I came to France. I did not speak French, right? It is a very hard thing to integrate in France if you do not speak their language. So I think for me, at a very young age, I knew that in order for me to thrive, I have to adapt to different situations. And I think that's what you were asking me what it takes to be a leader. I think what it takes is never be afraid of change, always be willing to adapt, and there is always a solution. So if you believe in those three things, I think it makes life a bit easier. But I learned it very young that if I just try to stay in my own way, it'll be very hard for me to actually be happy in France and be able to embrace a new culture. So I think embracing change is the ultimate way to innovate and grow.

You have done your research very well. Yes. I mean, I think the cultural differences, I think if you're in Europe, everybody thinks Europe is this one big country. It is not. Every single country is a very different culture. The French and the English don't really understand each other even today. The same you can say with the Germans and the French. So even though it is called Europe, it is not really a homogeneous place. And it has its complexities. And that is an advantage really to be in Europe because you have to adapt to these situations, right? If you are working in a multinational organization in Europe, you cannot just take your point of view and make that a reality. And so for me, because I came from India, the shock was so big from a cultural perspective that the different nuances across Europe were easier to navigate, I think, because overall, there are differences, but 80% of the way they operate is still the same. So being able to manage the nuances is quite important. It is really helpful to build the right relationships. I think in terms of leading your peers who are probably at the same level or even further up, I think it is a question of respect. You need to be respectful of people. You need to be able to show them what you are trying to bring to the table, how partnering with you, they will at the end of the day have more of an impact on the company. And I think those are important elements to navigate these challenges. And I've had to do this a couple of times during the last 14 years that I've been in this company. And every time I think the principle is the same: respect, identify the impact, and make their lives easy. If you can do that, then it is actually a pretty good way to create the right team mechanics and drive growth for the company.

I mean, I think humility doesn't mean that you don't have strong convictions, right? Like, I actually do not make any decisions based on personal relationships. No, nothing. I always, I would say 99.9% of the times I make decisions based on the customer outcomes we deliver. Humility is about being open to different points of view, right? I think if you have to make a decision, you can't always believe you have all the data points yourself. And being humble means open to listen to other points of view, take ideas which are not just yours, but use them and leverage them to make the right decisions. And I think that is potentially why you have heard about this, because I am very open to talking to our customers, to my colleagues, to my partners, and actually draw and have a very clear understanding of different perspectives before making a decision. And I think that has helped me make decisions which are longer term, which have more of an impact on our organization, and allows people to believe they have a say. So all in all, being humble doesn't mean you can't make a decision. Being humble means you are open to other ideas, which I think in today's changing economic environment and technology landscape is pretty important to do. So that's what I think about it.

Oh, really good question. I think I'm very fortunate to have a family who understands and who is participating in my career. Like I think it is a joint decision. So I spoke with my wife before I took this role and I said, this is going to mean some sacrifices from both of us because it's not just me who's sacrificing, it's also the people who are part of my family who are sacrificing in order for me to do this role. And I think we made the call together. I think we made some guardrails, which is like at the weekends when I am in Europe, in Paris, I 99% of the time try to disconnect and have quality time because if you can do that, then it actually makes life easier, right? And it is hard because of all the traveling I have to be out a lot. But we try to find time, we try to plan properly so that when we meet, we actually have things to do and enjoy time together. And I think that's how you create a balance between travel and enjoying the time when you get the occasion to be together. So it is not easy, but I'm very fortunate to have a family who understands and is willing to be part of this journey.

Yeah, and I think, I believe fundamentally, I mean, I think culturally, yes, it is hard in Europe to actually understand the work life balance that we have here in the US. But ultimately I think there are a lot of hardworking people in Europe, right? I mean, I can think of the LiveRamp team. They do work very, very hard. I'm not implying that there are no hardworking people. But yeah, at the end of the day, you have to find a balance that fits your lifestyle. And if you have understanding between you and your family, I think it's an easy thing to do. But you can't be successful if you don't really work hard. So you need to know what you want to do.

Yeah, I think Warren has been instrumental in my career and I think that's probably even an understatement. But working with Warren, I got to learn three things. One, it is very much about embracing external trends. He was somebody who always asked of us not to just look internally, but also see what is happening externally. And if you think about this story that we just talked about, if we didn't think externally, if we didn't embrace the different trends which were happening in the ecosystem, it would be very hard for us to actually go in this direction. So I think number one thing, embrace external trends. Second thing is any decisions or discussions you are having, it should not be about you. It should be about outcomes. And you should not refocus on why you are right versus why you are wrong. You should always be focused on what is the ultimate outcome you are trying to deliver for the company, LiveRamp in this case, or for the advertiser you are working with. And that always helps take away the personal egos that are in play when you are actually doing a deal. And the third thing he taught me is like, really think in horizons, right? There is a tendency to just look at the next three months and say, this is the right call for the next three months. But it is really very much about looking a longer term view, three to five years, so that you can start articulating and putting in place a strategy which will have a lasting impact. So I would say those are the three main things that Warren has taught me. And I think two other people who are really important in this journey are Florence Farman, who is actually our CFO in international business. I've been working with her for the last 15 years and we have a great relationship in the sense that she's able to challenge the status quo. She's always very, if you think of me, I'm more of a visionary person and I am very optimistic about what the future can look like. And having somebody like Florence being a great partner actually allowed me to not only see the positive side of the equation when I'm making a decision, but also the different negatives and different challenges that we might face, which ultimately ended up in better decisions for the company. So I would say she is an integral part of the success in my career. And I would say the third person is Fatima Aliane, who leads, who is our chief operating officer outside of the US. So basically helping deliver value to our customers. She has always been able to take my vision and put it in practice for our customers, which has ultimately helped deliver huge value. And without those two folks, it would be hard for me to sit here and say that I'm successful.

Yes, I would say this whole notion that we are in a static market or things don't change, I think that's just completely false. And I should, I mean, even when I was in product back 10 years ago, I think it is important for us as leaders to embrace change. I think that's kind of number one and not be afraid of it. I think you'll meet a lot of people who are actually afraid about what is going on in the market, what are the changes, how things are going to impact. But every change is an opportunity. And I think every challenge that we face from a customer or internally or externally is an opportunity for us to improve ourselves. I think that's kind of number one. Number two, I don't think we should give up, right? If we actually believe in where we are going, we should be open to finding different avenues and ways to articulate our point. I think that's kind of number two, because sometimes you would come to a meeting and your idea doesn't get vetted, and a lot of people will just say, okay, yeah, that's okay. I'm just going to not focus on it. But if you really believe in what you are doing is the right thing for your customers and for your company, you should not give up and try multiple avenues, multiple ways to articulate and quantify the outcome that you want to deliver. And finally, I would say something that Warren taught me is like, don't think about the next three months. Think about three to five years. And if you can think longer, I think it's better because you can actually craft a way to execute on a longer term strategy, which ultimately gives you the benefit of being able to change course, being able to slightly modify the way you are, but to be focused on a longer term outcome is quite important.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think you have to believe in the outcomes you want to deliver. And if you do, then you'll always find a way to articulate it and adapt your talk track to meet the right outcome. Because I think ultimately it is about helping other people buy into your vision, which might take time, but if you give up, you don't really have the opportunity to do that.

Thank you Michael. It is a great meeting and thank you for taking the time.