We are very excited because Oprah, and you know there's only one, is here to reveal her newest book club selection. We love when this happens because it only happens on CBS Mornings. So Oprah, drum roll, please.
Okay, who did you select? It's called A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose by Eckhart Tolle. I know how much she loves this book. And A New Earth's message is, 'There is a way out of suffering and into peace.' His writing explains how we can transcend unhappiness and live a more fully present life. So this is Tolle's second appearance on Oprah's Book Club. It was first selected back in 2008. So this makes it the only book to have been selected twice. Look at you guys back then. Look at us back then. The only book to be selected twice in the club's 28-year history.
Oprah, I love this picture. Oprah and Eckhart Tolle are here with us. Good morning to you, Eckhart. And congratulations. Thank you so much. I know this is a big deal for you, Oprah, because you never do this, but I remember when you first read this book years ago, she would call people up and read portions of the book and we'd go, 'Translate, please. Translate, please.' But why did you decide that now is the time?
Because you know what's interesting to me, guys, is this book is still relevant today. Well, I think it'll be relevant forever because I think as we live in a world where there is consistent chaos, it's more important now than ever before to find your own inner peace and to be aware of your contribution to what makes peace in the world. And you can only do that through truly understanding yourself versus your ego and not acting out of your ego. And the reason why I've chosen it for the second time, you know, is because this book actually had probably, I say this more effect on me than any other living author. It changed the way I looked at myself, the way I looked at the world. It changed my decision-making process. It changed the way I operated in my personal life and my business.
Well, first of all, recognizing the main theory is that you are not your thoughts. And so, removing yourself from understanding that the constant voice in your head that's constantly trying to tell you everything that's going on all the time. We all have that voice in our head. And being able to separate yourself from that, to know that you're not the thoughts in your head, you are the awareness of the thoughts in your head. That's fantastic. To operate from the space of awareness and let the thoughts do their thing and you just observe the thoughts. And so what it allowed me to do, what A New Earth did for me, is allowed me to not make any decisions without thinking about, is this my ego or is this my true self? Yes. And any decision that I've ever made out of ego, I ended up in crisis or ended up in some kind of problem and trying to figure it out later. So I know I now ask this question in my head, but I'm curious for you, Eckhart, how you figured this out for yourself. What was happening in your life?
Well, in my 20s, I suffered from depression and other psychological dysfunctions. I became a very unhappy person. And I was 29 years old one night when I considered suicide. I couldn't live with myself any longer. So this thought came into my mind, 'I cannot live with myself any longer.' It was just too painful. And when this thought came into my mind, I suddenly stepped back and said, 'Wait a moment. What did I just think? I cannot live with myself.' Who then? Who or are there two of me? What is the self that I cannot live with? So I discovered there's the self which is the ego conditioned by the past with many dysfunctions making me unhappy, but there was a deeper identity that was the 'I' that Oprah just mentioned, that's consciousness itself. And when you step back from your ego, which is identification with thinking, you realize that you are not your thoughts. There's a deeper dimension in you that is ultimately the spiritual dimension. So you step back from your thoughts and realize, 'I am much vaster than my thoughts.'
So let's try to put it into practice. Yes. You say in the book that the source of unhappiness is never the situation. It's your thoughts about the situation.
Yes, that's a very important point. I often recommend people should verify that in their own experience. For example, when you find yourself in a situation and you become irritated or angry, ask yourself, 'Is it the situation that is causing me to feel irritated or angry? Or is it my thoughts about the situation? The narrative in my mind that tells me this is too awful a situation, I can't stand it anymore.' So, let's say you go to the airport, there's a long delay, there's a lineup. Oprah doesn't have that experience. So there's a long line up and you get very irritated and angry. Ask yourself, 'Am I angry because of the situation or how would I experience this situation if I did not add any thoughts to it?' If I had just allowed myself to accept it.
One of the things I also learned from A New Earth and Eckhart is that all stress is wanting the situation you're in to be something that it's not. And the moment you can just accept, 'I'm going to be late,' the line is over. That's why you say it's changed your life. The moment you just practice that today, it is what it is, Eckhart. Acceptance of the present moment.
Acceptance of the present moment.
We're going to accept the present moment that we're up against a hard wall. We congratulate you, Oprah. Thank you. Thank you, Eckhart. Only on CBS Mornings we are revealing Oprah's newest book club selection. She said to us that this book changed her thinking. We sat down with Oprah and the author to talk about why she liked it so much. Here's that conversation. We are so excited. This is my excited face to have Oprah, as in Winfrey, there's only one, in our studio to announce her latest book club selection. Drum roll please. Drum roll. All right. It's called... Oprah, what is it? Dream State by Eric Puchner. I am so happy to be able to announce this book. I'm so excited to talk about this book because Dream State takes place over the course of 50 years in rural Montana. It follows a young bride who decides to leave her picture-perfect husband, that's in quotes, after falling in love with his best friend. Despite the betrayal, the three remain intertwined in each other's lives. Eric Puchner, we're happy to say, and Oprah is here. Good morning. Good morning. Congratulations to you, Mr. Eric Puchner. And this is what I learned for the first time sitting here with you and Oprah because I was saying, 'Oh, I like your suit.' She said, 'I picked out the suit to match the book cover.' Yes, that one does. Do you approve?
I'm so honored. I can't believe it. I really made it.
Now, I am always fascinated by Eric, by anything that involves betrayal, but certainly betrayal among best friends. So, I was surprised that you would pick a book about betrayal about best friends.
I love reading this kind of stuff. Well, one of the reasons I really appreciated Dream State so much is because there's this point in everybody's life where you make a decision and that decision changes the course of your life, right? And what if you had made the other decision? What if you had chosen to marry the other guy? What if you had not married the person that you're with? Everybody, I think at some point gets cold feet. I remember you telling me when you were many years ago getting married that your mother said, 'How do I know? How do I know?' And your mother said, 'Oh, you're just having cold feet.' And so, I think that this brings that story into full focus about what if you'd made another choice. But the thing is, guys, this is more than just cold feet. She actually married the man and then ends up with his best friend. Eric, where does that story come from?
I think, Oprah, what you're saying about making a decision and possibly wondering if it was the right decision and then living the rest of your life thinking about this sort of ghost life that you could have lived. I think it's very seductive to think that life is elsewhere and to fall through the trap door of regret. Yes, I think that's a good... but that doesn't mean that you would have been happier living this other life. You may have been just as happy or you may have been less happy. What it says is that we can make a decision and you can make happiness wherever you are.
Yes. I think part of that happiness is not falling through the trap door of regret and accepting that this is the decision I made and not dwelling on the other possibility. And can I just say upfront, your lovely wife is here watching us at this time. You have not fallen through the trap door of regret. You and your wife are very happy. This is not a personal story for you.
Not at all. And she's a novelist. Tell us her name. Katherine Noel is a wonderful, wonderful... I want to read Katherine's book.
But so this has nothing to do with your own marriage because whenever I read these kind of books I think, is it something they can relate to in their own personal lives? One of the reasons why I too was drawn to the book Dream State is because it is in a dream state. It's set in the dream state of Montana. And I know that that was a character in the book. Yes. Which is its own character in the book. I have loved Montana since A River Runs Through It, I have to say. I mean, I adore Montana.
Katherine and I have been going to Montana for the past 25 years and staying at a particular house, which is a house that's in Katherine's family. And that's the house that's in the story. It's not the actual house, but the house in Dream State is based on a real house that I adore.
And I don't want to give the story away because right up until the end, you keep us guessing. I kept thinking the book looks like it's about to end, but I still don't know the answer to the question that I had during the whole book. How were you able to keep them still friends after 50 years? I was really fascinated by that.
I think friendship is really complicated and I think that one thing I haven't read enough of in fiction are stories about male friendship. And so I was very interested in this male friendship. Charlie and Garrett, who are the two main characters, have been best friends since college and they formed this powerful bond. And then there's this profound betrayal. And so I was fascinated by how that might play out over 50 years.
I love this story because whether you're Gen Z or millennial or you're my generation, there's something for everyone. And I was talking to your producer who is of the Gen Z generation who recently married, and she was saying that she related so much to the story. And I loved having the opportunity to talk to you about it. I love the book, Eric. Congratulations. But before you go, I always like to know how people reacted when you got the call. Where were you?
I was in my office which gets horrible cell reception. So, I had to go out into my car. I was kind of grumbling about it because it's this kind of depressing parking lot at Hopkins. And I was sitting in my car hunched over. And then I get this phone number comes up on the screen that I've never seen before. And I answer it and it's Oprah Winfrey. And I was just so flabbergasted. I was astonished.
Yes. Not only that, but I get the books ahead of time. I get the reading proof copies. And I called you later to say, you know, I think there's a couple of errors here because you're telling the story and you're saying that he's this age, but at the wedding he was that age. And he goes, 'You found errors in the book. I wish you did. It's an early galley. It's an early galley.' He goes, 'Okay, that's been corrected, Oprah. It's been corrected.' Yes. Thank you. Good thing Oprah's on the case. Congratulations, Eric. And thank you, Oprah.
Dream State is on sale now. You can go to wherever you like to buy your books, but you can go to cbsmornings.com for a reader guide and a free excerpt from the book and get Eric Puchner's conversation with Oprah on the Oprah podcast. Available now on YouTube or wherever you go to get your podcast. You can tell that Oprah was a good student in school. She's catching errors in the galley and pointing them out. Right. It's a very good read. Good habits and sounds like a good book. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oprah's here. There's only one to reveal her newest book club selection only on CBS Mornings. I have to say we love when that happens. So Oprah, drum roll, please. Drum roll, please. Drum roll. Thank you. The book is called The Tell by Amy Griffin. And you chose it. Why?
I chose it. Well, first of all, because Amy Griffin is here. Amy Griffin is here. I chose it. You know why I chose it? You were reading it and I said, and you were telling me about it and I said, 'That's a book that I should be reading.' So, give me that book right now. And she took it from... but normally when I'm reading something I recommend it, she doesn't pay any attention. This is extraordinary. We have very different styles. But I love this. Why did you... because number one, it's a memoir and it's a memoir about keeping secrets and how secrets leave you in shame and how once you are able to open up the aperture of your life experience and reveal that secret, then it's empowering to you. And I think this book is going to help so many other people, particularly people who have suffered any kind of abuse or any kind of shame revealed for themselves. I know Amy, let's bring you in this conversation. Number one, I love the title, The Tell. The Tell. Yeah, congrats. And the tell means so many different things to you. Tell us what it means specifically to you and why you wanted to tell the story now.
Well, first of all, thank you. This is such a surreal moment. It's so surreal to me because this has been such a long process in the telling and there were so many tells both within my body and my brain, my mind and my relationships. And now to go through the process of writing the book is really what the story is all about. I'm able to share my truth and it's so freeing to do so.
And your truth is... I mean, we should lay it out so people understand. You were abused by a teacher and you kept it secret for so long growing up with, you know, tattletales don't tell, but also you really didn't remember all of the things that had happened. It was a conscious choice, and the way you write about your body showing signs of the unresolved trauma before your memories came back is fascinating.
I think there's that idea that secrets, you think they keep you safe, but really they keep you stuck. And this idea that I was really not able to let that go. I built up these walls and these castles and built these modes in my life to hold myself safe. And I thought that that was what kept me safe. But really, it was only in the telling, it was in the sharing of my story and the processing of what had gone on and the unraveling of all of it that I'm able to live the life that I am now. And I feel so grateful to be able to do so.
One of the reasons this book struck me is because I've done so many conversations over the years. When I was doing the Oprah show, I think we had 251 conversations about sexual abuse, sexual assault. And you were sexually abused yourself and I was, you know, raped at the age of nine and molested all the way through 14 and all of that and was able to overcome that by revealing it. And what I've learned is that so many people do exactly what Amy Griffin did and talks about in her book, The Tell. They're trying to live this life of perfection. So the book starts out with Amy running, running, running, running. She was a great athlete, continues to be one. But running, running, running, running, running. And part of that running is running from the idea of this thing that had happened to her because she had grown up in this perfectly perfect family. And so, you know, when you live in this perfect environment, you don't want to have to admit to yourself that something's wrong. Isn't that what happened?
Absolutely. And I think the idea that when you let go of the control and when you realize that vulnerability is really the power that you have, and I feel like the vulnerability here has really given me a new life in many ways. I've been able to tell this story not from trying to hold on to control, not by trying to make everything look perfect because we as women hold so much, like to be the perfect mother, the perfect sister, the perfect daughter, the perfect athlete. And when I've let that go, I think it's changed so much in my life for sure, in my relationships in every form.
You write in fact that it was making you sick keeping the secret. And then you write in the book, 'The only way to heal now was to speak out loud what had been done to me. To say it over and over again, as loud as I could, looking directly into someone else's eyes.' I mean, that process, that epiphany that came to you, what was that like when you all of a sudden realized that you had to tell this story?
I think that really the word that I can think of is surrender. I surrendered to all of it. And in the telling, to first be honest with myself and then go tell the story to my family and my friends. And every time I opened up and told the story, there was a new freedom within me and there was compassion with myself. It was the first time I'd given myself permission to do that. I had locked it all away. And I'm just really grateful that I did. I'm grateful that I leaned in to do that.
Well, we had this wonderful conversation. I have a podcast now, y'all. Sponsored by Starbucks. And we were at the Starbucks roastery in Chicago, surrounded by all of these women who read the book and were so moved and empowered. And one of the most moving was a woman who said, 'After reading this book, I immediately called my daughters together.' She had three daughters and sat down with my daughters to talk to them about the tell because as you were saying before, what this means for people who have had sexual assault in their lives and passing that message on to their children in a way that empowers their children. You have very powerful moments in the book where you tell your children, your daughter in particular, she says, 'Mom, what's wrong? Is there something? You don't seem like yourself.' This young girl said, 'Mom, you're here, but you're not really here.'
I'm so grateful for that moment. That's the idea that my children were holding a mirror up to me to myself to say, 'Mom, you're here, but we want you to participate in our life in a way that maybe you're not.' And the gift that that really gave me in that moment was that my child was parenting me. And if I couldn't listen to that, she could tell that you were running from something, but you couldn't.
Yes. And you were holding off on writing the book at one point, looking for the perfect ending, right? Legal justice or finding other survivors. And you say you got past that. How? And so then what is the ending for people?
Well, I think the thing for me is that I wrote this book first for myself on the bathroom floor, not knowing that anyone in the world would ever see it again. So it was really just for me. But then as I started writing and now that I look back, there was this criminal investigation. It's a wild thriller of a ride that I went through and thinking that if I could hold this person accountable, that would be the perfect ending. But in the process of writing the book, I realized the perfect ending was actually to go and investigate myself. And that was the only way that change was really going to happen.
Because he still has not been held accountable.
Oh, you know, and yes, he has not been held accountable, but I did everything I could to hold him accountable. And the thing I can say is this is not his story. The real tell is for you. Yours is your book. And the book itself is the ending.
That's a very powerful line, Amy. 'This is not his story.' I know. And I can see why it resonated with Oprah. So, bravo. Congrats. Congrats. Congratulations. Congrats to you, Amy. Oprah Winfrey. We thank you both. People will be grateful after they read this book, too. She just revealed, as you know, her latest book club selection. Matriarch is the name of the book by the lovely Tina Knowles. It's a very personal memoir detailing Tina's life story from growing up in Texas during segregation to raising music superstars. That would be Beyoncé and Solange, of course. Tina, we are so glad to have you in the studio. I've been waiting for people to hear your story. But what was interesting to me reading the book, when I got to the part about the cancer, I called over. I said, 'You didn't say that Tina had cancer.' So when I read it, it was like being punched in the gut. You didn't reveal that even when you're talking to people because anytime anybody's going to read the book, I don't want to tell you what's in the book. Yes. I will tell you that when I first started reading the book, as we said earlier, I wasn't reading it as a book club selection, but because it is such a strong and powerful story and what you did is what I think is so hard to do when you're writing a memoir, and that is to tell your story intimately, personally, but also make it universal so that everybody else who's reading it feels the depth of your story and thinks about their own story. And so I believe everybody who has a mother and everybody who is a mother is going to love this story because you're the ultimate matriarch. But you make it universal for everybody. Exactly. Thank you. What is it like for you, Tina, this day that it's come out? Now people will hear about your news. They will hear about your life story. What is this day like for you?
It's a wonderful day. I mean, look what I'm starting off doing. You don't get better than this. But I still have a little anxiety. You know, because you're just putting it out into the world and to be really scrutinized and people will regurgitate. They always have something to say.
But what I'm fascinated about this book is because your family is notoriously private. How you were able to write this book and what you decided to include. Did you talk to them about it first? Did you say this is what I'm thinking? What was that process?
No, I didn't. I just gave each of them their parts of the book. And of course, I started off with a thousand pages. So, I had to take a lot of things. A thousand pages. And the publisher was like, 'Nobody's going to read a book that's a thousand pages. You got to take out, especially Gayle King.' Right. That's all she'd be saying is, 'You realize this is a thousand pages.' Hush for hush. So, I just put the things in there and I tried really hard to tell the stories without telling other people's stories and that is really hard.
Yes. You talked there about some of your anxiety, your nerves about the book, all that being out there. What are your hopes? How do you hope people receive it?
I hope that people will for one be inspired by some of the stories of the things that I've overcome. And I also hope that people will do their family trees and get into their legacy and their ancestors, you know, because I didn't know my grandparents. So it was one of the reasons why I wanted to do this is to leave that for my grandchildren, for my great grandchildren that I might not meet, and they'll have a story in my words and not someone else interpreting my story.
Tina, one of the things I find fascinating is oftentimes even if you're close to your children, they may not know you. They may not know your true self. You may have... and there are a lot of people who don't have close relationships. They certainly don't know who you were as a young girl. Exactly. 100%. So, one of the most fascinating details in the book is you chronicle your decades-long relationship and your marriage to the father of Beyoncé and Solange, Matthew Knowles. And I want to know if they knew that you had this on-again, off-again relationship with him.
They, until they read the book. Of course they did when they were older. But when they were younger they knew, you know, and there was a time that I separated and they were devastated because they were very young. And they never knew why, the real reasons why. And so it's a difficult thing until they're older because you don't want to put that on a kid.
So you know, Tina and I did a podcast as we do for the Oprah's Book Club for Starbucks on YouTube. Doesn't that come out today? Yes, it's out right now on YouTube for Starbucks. And here's the thing that I love so much is that she knew early on, this is before people were sending their kids to therapy, she knew early on that the girls' relationship with each other needed to be balanced and talked about in a way that she didn't feel capable of doing completely herself. So she started sending them both to therapy at a very young age so that they could appreciate each other's talents. And I think one of the things you do so beautifully in Matriarch is you balance each girl's story. So it's not just all about Beyoncé. You say Solange is the word artist. I mean, she's art. She is art. But what I liked too was hearing about your own personal life as a little girl. You know, there's some racism in the book. Your brother was attacked, your father almost died, and to hear that you were arrested. Teeny B was your nickname because apparently you were quite a mouthy little girl.
The biggest surprise to me is that her name was Beyoncé. That's where her last name. That your last name was Beyoncé and that's where Beyoncé's name came from.
Yes. Yes. Yes. So I, as a little kid, I say all the time that my parents had me at 44 and they were tired by then. So I just got to talk back and have my own opinions about things and it really saved me because if I hadn't had that mouth, I would have suffered greatly.
As a 44-year-old parent of four, I can confirm that. But I'm also interested in the commercial success of Destiny's Child and your hand in guiding that. I mean, that group to success and even the name. Could you talk about that part of the book?
Yes, I did because I put their picture in my NIV study Bible and one day I opened it and it said Destiny and I was like, that's the name. And my ex-husband added 'Child' to it because it was already a group by that name and the rest is history.
And the rest is history. You talk about a complicated relationship with your parent, your mother in particular, but when it came to you being a mother, you said motherhood was the most important job of your life and you wanted to get that right. What did you mean by that?
Well, just because I was rebellious as a teenager and just like I said had a mouth on me and sometimes my mouth got me in a lot of trouble. You know, I talk about going to jail on a motorcycle. My mouth got me there. So with my kids I said, 'I got to control myself. I have to be deliberate and intentional and I got to stop all the... I mean, I got to keep it together because I have to... I just didn't want to screw that up because I screwed some stuff up, you know.'
Don't you think Matriarch, Oprah, is such a good title for this because so many people wish you were their mother?
I was going to say the same thing. It's not just Destiny's Child. It's the entire Beyhive that sees you as a mother. Well, and also I think that what she does is pays such great tribute to her mother and her grandmother. And you see very early on in the beginning of the book because her mother was this incredible seamstress and Johnny and Johnny's role in your life. Johnny was... you were so close to him and then the whole Renaissance thing is about Johnny and the fact that your mother was such a great seamstress and now all of you all dress like your mother would have wanted you to dress. Exactly. And all of that is in the book. And guess what, Tina? We have a two-part interview with you tomorrow because it wasn't a thousand pages, but we tried to get every drop out of this book. It's so good. And this one, it's a doozy. We sat down with Oprah and the author recently to talk about the novel that she says is one of the best books she's ever read. It's one of the best days here on CBS Mornings. Whenever Oprah drops by, you know it's going to be something good. She's here again to reveal her latest book club selection. Only on CBS Mornings. Wait, I have to move up since Vlad isn't here to do the drum roll. Come on, studio. Drum roll. Okay. Okay, Oprah, drum roll. It's called The Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Vuong. It's the story of... The Emperor of Gladness is an epic story about love and loneliness. It follows 19-year-old Hai who develops a life-changing bond with an elderly widow who's suffering from dementia. So, put the two of those characters together. New York Times best-selling author and award-winning poet Ocean Vuong is here. Welcome and congratulations.
Thank you so much, Gayle. Thank you, Oprah. Really happy to be here.
I would first I want to hear why you picked it and then I want to know what it means to you that she did pick it. Why did you pick it?
I picked it because I thought that it's some of the most beautiful writing I've experienced in my lifetime. I think it's poetic literature and I think that Ocean Vuong's ability to capture the essence of just ordinary people is like nobody I've ever experienced. You always like those stories about regular people and he's able to show the mastery and the extraordinariness in everybody's ordinary lives. When I tell everybody, would you just read the first chapter? And if you read the first chapter, you're going to be hooked. And then she calls you back and says, 'Did you finish it yet?' Did you finish it yet? 'The hardest thing in the world is to live only once.' That's the first line of this book. And it is followed by more beautiful words than I could even imagine in one story. That is what you do.
Before you talk about what it means to you to have been chosen, because I want to follow up on the line that Oprah just said because it opens with the character Hai contemplating taking his own life and you put that out there in the very beginning.
Well, suicide is a very personal thing for me. My uncle took his own life in 2012. He was only 28 years old. I was 24. So, he was like a big brother to me. And often in stories or news segments, we have the suicide at the edge of the bridge and then when they come off that bridge and, God willing, they do, we all clap. Everything's back to normal. But I've always thought, what's happened for that person on day two of that decision, day three, day 20, because their life still is in shambles and they did want to take their life. That's the question. What happened? Their life still is in shambles. And that's what you do so beautifully in this story. Then you have the two characters. Hai is very young and then the grandmother in this story. The two of them end up together and it's an unlikely duo but it works. The age difference. She has dementia. She sees them on the bridge and she calls him back to life. And I think what I wanted to show is that sometimes you don't have a grand narrative that brings you back to meaningful life. Often what it is is that you realize you're more useful to somebody else than you were ever useful to yourself. And the bond, the unfamiliar bond, is actually very formidable and familiar because both in our society, both the young people and the very old have been pushed on the margins. So there's loneliness, massive amounts of loneliness on both sides of that age spectrum. And in fact, when they come together, they realize, 'Oh, we're in the same realm. We've been pushed outside of the frame, and we only have each other to make a life worth living.'
When I first met you, you said something that so moved me. You said that I was saying, 'These characters are unbelievable.' And you said that I don't just create them, you stand with them. You stand with the characters. And you said you wanted every character to have their own dream, which was also true in the book.
That's very important to me. I think sometimes the way we're taught to write fiction is that the plot is supreme. That everybody has to serve the plot. Like the plot is some kind of master. And I never believed in that. I felt that the plot should actually showcase people where they are. And I wanted to give every character their own desire, their own dreams, however big or small. Because when people get their own dreams, they get to be fully themselves.
He really is a walking, talking sound bite. I know. I say I want to write it down. He's one of the most extraordinary human beings I've ever met is Ocean Vuong. And I will say this is that when we did a podcast for Starbucks that's on YouTube, one of the things he said to me that still lives with me, he said that his mother always watched the Oprah show. His mother has had a nail salon in Connecticut. And he said many times there was just the three of us: my mother, himself, and me. You felt that kind of connection to Oprah?
It's such an honor to me to have her pick the book because, you know, where I come from, working-class people, the act of reading could be very intimidating. Most of the clients in my mother's nail salon were working women, single mothers who didn't have second degrees, who only have high school education. And when I watched them when they saw her book club show, they would get up from the chair with a different posture and all of a sudden they said, 'I'm going to walk across the strip mall. I'm going to go to Barnes & Noble. I'm going to get that book.' Because what she gave them was she made the act of reading accessible. And I watched these women feel so empowered and I think it opened up the possibility of reading for them in ways that they never would have gotten. And as a little boy, I didn't know I was going to be a writer, but I think I saw that first. I said, 'I don't know what that is, books, but it can change the posture of somebody's mother so that they can stand a little taller and walk across and get a book with that kind of confidence because she gave them a ticket into the discourse.' And that access means so much to me, especially as a first-generation immigrant, as a first generation to go to college, as an educator. It does the world.
And when you told your mother you were going to be an author, she associated that with, 'Oh, you mean like Oprah's book club?'
Your mother's no longer with us. What would she say today to see you that you are a member of Oprah's book club?
You gave me goosebumps. I hope she's proud of me. I hope she's seeing me somewhere. This is the only thing she would have recognized. You know, any literary prize I won, I called her up. She said, 'Oh, that's nice.' But this is the only thing that would be legible to her.
I'm so moved by that. I am, too. I'm so moved by that. That's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. May I say, those of you who are Ocean Vuong fans understand what a beautiful writer he is. If you haven't been introduced to him, he is one of America's greatest treasures as writers. I mean, it's one of the best books I've ever ever read.
Wow. Treasure, not a word she throws around. I can tell you that. The Emperor of Gladness is on sale now. Check out cbsmornings.com for a reader guide and a free excerpt from this book. And you can watch Ocean Vuong's conversation with Oprah on the Oprah podcast. It's available on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
Your podcast. And we have to say this. If you or someone you know is seeking mental health resources, you can call the National Alliance on Mental Illness helpline at 1-800-950-6264. Going to repeat it again: 1-800-950-6264. Or in a crisis, call or text 988. Again, that number 988. That was one of the most emotional book club selections we've done, mainly because of Ocean's reaction. But it just shows you the power of reading and writing and what books mean to people and to him and his mom in particular.
Yeah. And the wisdom that can be in a novel. I mean, just that first sentence, right? 'The hardest thing to do is live only once.' Beautiful. He's a beautiful writer. Invitation into the discourse. Yes. So good. Oprah, drum roll, please. What did you select?
Vlad usually gives you the drum roll. Okay, here we go. Ready? It's called 'The River is Waiting' by Wally Lamb. Okay. 'The River is Waiting' is a story of Corby Ledbetter. He's a young and struggling stay-at-home dad to twin toddlers. I always wanted twins. He causes a tragedy that tears his family apart. So, this book tracks Corby's journey through prison where he witnesses acts of brutality and kindness and how he hopes forgiveness might eventually be possible. We're happy to say that Wally Lamb has joined the conversation. Congratulations. Thank you.
Now what makes this so extraordinary to me, Wally and Oprah, because this is the third Wally Lamb book that you picked and you normally don't have repeat authors. Why Wally?
Well, because Wally is such a profoundly outstanding magician of words. And also because when I started reading this story, Wally, I started to think immediately in the first chapter of real life stories that I'd done for so many years on the Oprah show. And when we did the podcast with Starbucks in Seattle, I actually invited one of those people who had one of these tragedies. It's life imitating art imitating life.
Yes. Exactly. So, Wally, what did you think when you got the call? Because now it's like you and Oprah are old pals. You've had conversations. Does your phone literally ring and it's Oprah again?
Yes. And this is the third time, and it was just as shocking as the other two. I couldn't believe it. And yet I felt really comfortable because we had talked several times before, and you have that gift of making people feel comfortable.
She does have that gift. But Nate had said something about emotions. Could we just show the picture? This is me reading the book. This picture could have been taken at the beginning, the middle, or the end. Wally, that's how powerful the book is. It grabs you right away. So you're reading this on a plane?
I'm on a plane. I got so choked up that the flight attendant came and said, 'Are you okay? Are you all right?' I go, 'I'm just reading this book.' And then you feel kind of foolish, but it tells you the power of words on a page.
What did you want people to take away from this book?
Well, when I'm writing the book, it's mine. And then when it's published, it goes out into the world and it's not mine anymore. So, I think that people should have the freedom to take what they want from it or what they might need from it. But I don't try to control that.
You don't. Where did the story start though?
It started with an article I read in the newspaper about these terrible backover accidents that happen. Usually, it's a small child who is behind the car, and usually it's the mom or dad who is thinking about something else or can't see the kid in the back, and they'll back up. So it starts... this book is very layered and there are a lot of themes: guilt and parental responsibility, there's redemption and forgiveness, there's addiction. And I want to focus on that because the trauma is tied to the addiction. It can both drive it or be driven by it.
What are some of the things that you want people to take away as they read this?
Well, that addiction is a black hole that you can get out of. And that 12-step programs really work for people.
You all know Wally has worked with so many women in prison for 20 years. Yes. That's why I was so surprised that this was a story about a guy, because I thought you would have had the woman go to prison instead of a male. And I think so much was fueled by your experiences working with these women, teaching women in prison how to write their own stories, right?
So, I knew about the kind of stuff that goes on in prison from their stories, but also one of the themes that I wanted to tackle was how men are different than women and how a men's prison would be different than a woman's prison too. So yeah, that part I did a lot of research on. I learned things like what the slang is in prison for a guy's prison, none of which I can say on air.
I like all the Connecticut references. You're a Connecticut guy. I like all the Connecticut references in particular. We had that comment, right? I like that very much. Oprah, you mentioned the podcast. You had a guest come on the podcast, the one that you did with... Yes. Yes. Why did you invite that guest and what was the intention?
