Today on Legends, ladies and gentlemen, we meet the man who turned a dream into one of India's proudest success stories. The Padma Vibhushan, the Padma Shri awardee, the founder of Infosys, and a leader who has inspired generations to aim high and stay grounded. Please welcome with a huge round of applause, Mr. Narayana Murthy, in conversation with our editor-in-chief, Mr. Arnab Goswami.
Um, okay, they're giving you a standing ovation right at the start. Mr. Narayan Murthy, it's an absolute privilege, pleasure. When you look at India's economic rise and you look at various reasons, I fundamentally think that it requires a coming together of vision and discipline which you represent. It requires a coming together of dreams and determination which you represent, and it also requires a synthesis, Mr. Narayan Murthy, of aspiration and pragmatism which you represent. For all the people in this hall, and especially for all the youngsters, there can be no better role model, no better role model I can tell you, than this great man sitting two meters to my left. Incredible.
Well, Arnab, first of all, thank you very much for this opportunity. You are one of the most important players in this constructive and pluralistic dialogue that is happening in our country about creating an India of which every one of us can be proud. So I thank you very much for your precious time, and I am very grateful to you for this opportunity. So we are looking upon this morning as a learning opportunity for all of us. We want to learn from you, learn from your stories, and then hear anecdotes about your life and your experiences and take away something. Everyone watching on streaming, digital, physically will be looking forward to that.
Sir, tell me about your childhood, because every person's rise begins with where they are from. You were born in a modest middle-class family. Your father was a teacher. Your mother was a homemaker, and you've said that your parents taught you discipline, humility, and the importance of learning. Can you tell us about your childhood in terms of what learning it gave you in life?
Well, you know, my father was a high school teacher. We went from one mofussil town to another in Karnataka. We were 11 mouths to feed. But my mother believed in a practice that was prevalent in Karnataka at that time called 'warn.' That translates to feeding a child from a poorer family once a week. So in other words, we used to have seven children from seven poorer families for dinner with us. In other words, my mother had to prepare for 12 children. And my father was a strict disciplinarian. His aspirations were very high. I still remember when I got the fourth rank for the state in SSLC, when I went and told him, he said, 'What happened to the other three?' And I worked hard and I got the third rank for the state for the pre-university course. And at that time, I didn't go to him because I knew what the answer would be. He was a strict disciplinarian. Mother was full of compassion. She believed in sharing whatever little we had with poorer families. She believed in each child making sacrifice for other people. I had some of the finest teachers in my primary and secondary schools. The most important principle I learned from my high school headmaster was putting the interest of the country ahead of your personal interest. I still remember the incident. He was teaching us chemistry, and I was sitting in the front row, and he was trying to put a little bit of sodium chloride or common salt into the test tube. He was extremely careful, and a colleague of mine burst out laughing. So then Mr. Kev Narin, my teacher, stopped the experiment and came to him and said, 'Young man, why did you laugh? What happened? What is so funny?' Children are generally very honest, and he said, 'Sir, you are very stingy with common salt, which is so inexpensive.' Then he said something that formed the foundation for my corporate governance principles. He said, 'Man, remember that this common salt belongs to the community of Shardavillas High School. It belongs to you, it belongs to me, it belongs to all the 60 students in this class, students in other classes, etc. So because this is community property, I have to be extremely careful in how I use it. It is 5:00, this class finishes. You please come to my house. I will give you a glass full of common salt free because that is my personal property.' So the imperative to put the interest of the community ahead of your personal interest formed such an important core of my corporate governance principles, and I remain very grateful to all these people.
That's very good advice, sir, because nowadays we see in this Shark Tank age, everyone wants to have valuation immediately, and everyone makes Ashneer Grover their role model. So that's very important for you: corporate governance is sharing and responsibility, it's not showing off. Such a great principle you've started with, sir. And I also fundamentally believe in the principle of simple living and high thinking, sir.
So is it true that you could not join the IIT because of financial constraints?
Can you tell us about what happened when you were about to go to college, and is this story true that you cleared the IIT but you could not join it because of...
That is very true. In fact, I got a pretty high rank in the joint entrance examination. But those days, the scholarship amount used to be given at the end of the year after the year was over in April, May. So I went to my father and said, 'Look, I have cleared the JEE now. I may go to either IIT Madras or to IIT Kharagpur, those were well-known ones to us, but it will cost about 60-70 rupees per month for the hostel.' He said, 'Look, my salary of 180 rupees is not enough to even manage these 11 people. Therefore, I don't think I'll be able to support you. I cannot take a loan of 700-800-900 rupees because your scholarship will come at the end of the year. So my advice to you is to join the local engineering college, and as long as you work hard, as long as you have a certain level of intellect, as long as you use that intellect to do well, you will succeed. It doesn't matter what college you go to.' So there were two of us who were selected from Mysore. The other one went, and I didn't go, and he used to send me every week a letter on life at IIT Madras. So it is true, but I didn't lose out by not going there. But that's a fact.
How did it, what kind of a setback was it for you psychologically? Because that's also a lesson for all of us, including young people, that when you don't get what you deserve and the only thing that you lack is financial resources. People often think, 'Oh, this is...' I believe, Mr. Narayan Murthy, I was speaking at a startup party in Bengaluru last week. I said the most beautiful thing in life is starting from zero. But many people, especially young people, want to start with an advantage. You did not start with an advantage. He got into IIT and could not join because he did not have the money. So I want the life lesson that you learned from it and how did it prepare you for the future?
You know, it all depends on your context. Your aspirations are defined by your context. Your hopes and your dreams are defined by your context. So, frankly, while I used to feel a little bit unhappy when I received those letters from Chandu, my classmate in pre-university who then went on to IIT Madras, but because of the beauty of the teachings of Hinduism, which was my religion, which spoke about contentment, which spoke about doing whatever best you can do under a certain circumstance, because I was surrounded by extraordinary friends, because I was under the guidance of my parents and my grandmother, my wonderful teachers, I don't think it had much impact. That's what I would say.
But does adversity teach you and prepare you better for the future? Does it make you dream harder? Does it make you more hungry? Because when you started Infosys almost 18 years later, you must have been very hungry. You must have been like 36 years old, 10,000 rupees in your pocket. You had a job, you were by now an IITian, you had done your post-graduation from IIT Kanpur if I'm not mistaken, so you were sorted. You were living the middle-class dream. Everything was fine, and then you gave it up and you wanted to start something. So I want the audience to relate between the Narayan Murthy who got admission to IIT and could not join because he did not have 60 rupees per month to pay for fees, and the Narayan Murthy who at the age of 35 starts Infosys with 10,000 rupees. Did your early adversity make you more of a risk taker, Mr. Narayan Murthy?
You know, in some sense, I have been shaped by the compassion, generosity, and the conviviality of my mother. She had just passed her eighth class. She was from a village. My father's side, they were very highly educated. And she taught us the importance of contentment. She taught us the importance of generosity. She taught us the importance of working hard. She taught us the importance of moving up through hard work, discipline, and high aspirations. So I would say that it really did not matter too much. Just to give you an idea, when I founded Infosys, I invited six younger people. Most of them were five to six levels below me. I took one-tenth the salary I was getting. One-tenth. But I ensured that all my other six fellows got at least 20% higher salary. I just kept only 23% of the equity. I gave 15% equity to people who had not even completed two years of work. And I have not come across another example of such a thing in India anywhere else, maybe I'm ignorant. All of that I credit my mother. I am extremely grateful to her that she taught me the importance of sharing, caring, and generosity.
So tell me about the Infosys start story. Some anecdote we've read about it, but something we don't know. When you started Infosys...
Well, you know, when I decided to found Infosys on December 26th, 1980, I spoke to my colleague Mr. N.S. Raghavan on the 29th of December 1980. Then I spoke to Mr. Kris Gopalakrishnan, who was the third person, on December 30th, and then I spoke to Nandan Nilekani the next day, that is December 31st, 1980. Raghavan and Kris very immediately agreed to come on board. Nandan agreed immediately, but I told him, 'Friend, you're going to get married now.' He got married on the 6th or 7th of January 1981. 'You may want to consult your fiancée and your future parents-in-law.' He said, 'No, no, no, that's not necessary.' I said, 'No, man, please listen to me and go and do it.' So after three or four days, he came back with a sheepish smile and said, 'Mr. Murthy, would it be possible for you to come and meet my uncle, Sri D. Sri Divi?' He was an entrepreneur who had founded Divi Metalworks in Pune. He said, 'My parents-in-law want me to arrange a meeting between you and Sri Divi. Divi wants to talk to you and find out your idea of entrepreneurship.' I said, 'Most welcome.' So Sudha and I went to Nandan's grand-uncle's house in Worli, and Sudha and Nandan's grand-uncle hit it off very well because they were both from the Indian Institute of Science. Divi and I went into about two hours of conversation about my idea of founding Infosys, why it is well-founded, why the probability of success is higher, all of that. Finally, Mr. Divi seemed to have been quite satisfied with this middleman's crazy idea, and then he must have communicated to Mr. Suman, Rohini's father, and then Nandan came back and said, 'Yeah, everybody is happy now. I will join you.' On the other hand, Kris Gopalakrishnan came from a business family. He said, 'No, I have no issue. I have a lot of faith in you. I'll join.' Then we invited, later on after about three or four months, we invited S.D. Shibulal and Ashok Arora. So that was one interesting incident which is probably worth mentioning. And it took about probably 20 to 50 visits to Delhi to get a license to import a computer. It took about 10 visits to even modify the license because in the US, every month there used to be a new model of the equipment which was probably 50% more powerful but which was offered at 30% lower price. But getting the approval from the Government of India, the Department of Electronics, was a torturous affair. It took about nine months.
Why was it made so difficult? Can you explain to everyone who would have no recollection of that time, to buy a computer would take a year's approval?
Well, first of all, our exports were very low. Second, we had to import our basic needs like oil, even some wheat, etc., because we had still not fully leveraged the power of the Green Revolution. So the government had to be extremely careful in releasing foreign exchange. I understand that; probably I would have done the same thing if I were in their position. But looking at it from the perspective of an entrepreneur, it was different because we were moving with the times. Our dreams were seeded in the most advanced nations in the world. So our expectations and the reality of India had a huge gap. So I understand. Thanks to the 1991 reforms, when we had only 15 days' worth of foreign exchange for imports, today we have somewhere around $650 billion, which is excellent.
The reason I emphasize this is because I believe it's always important to keep remembering how far we've come. How far we've come. And for many in this audience, they would not have a living recollection of the India of 2010, 2005, 2000, leave alone the India of 1985. And for some of us who've seen how much we've come, we must remember how long a distance we have covered. Also for you, because after you launched Infosys, there was a time... This is very relevant nowadays. People make companies and they sell companies. You ask somebody, 'Why are you making a company?' 'For exit.' 'What are you doing a company for?' 'To sell it.' You ask somebody, 'What is this? What is the business plan?' 'It is a sale.' It is the truth. And this is the culture which unfortunately is being encouraged by these Shark Tank guys. The first thing you ask a person, he says, 'I want to make a cycle tire.' 'Why do you want to make a cycle tire?' 'Because I want valuation.' 'Why do you want valuation?' 'Because I want to sell this company as soon as I can.' And I say, 'Sir, those who build a company to sell it are all frauds. And this fraudulent culture must stop in this country. It makes for good startup television, good 10 minutes of TV viewing, but it's rubbish.' The question to you is this: In the late 1980s, some of your co-founders were forcing you to sell Infosys. Is that right? Can you tell us the inside story of what happened? Because Infosys nearly shut down. Nearly shut down. Some of your co-founders wanted to sell the company. You refused, and apparently you went around pleading, 'Give me one more chance. Give me one more chance.' Is this true, Mr. Narayan Murthy? Can we have the inside story of what happened on that occasion?
It is true. However, I would not put it the way you did because you have a different perspective.
No, no, no. Not way. A different perspective.
You know, that's the beauty of a pluralistic society. Your perspective is as right as mine. But I will stick to facts because I was part of it. What happened was, sometime in 1989, I met the head of finance of a large family company at Mumbai airport, and he said, 'You know, we are looking at acquiring a software business. Would it be possible for you to come and meet me?' I said, 'Sure,' because I wanted to see his perspective so that I could understand my business, my opportunities, etc., better. So I went and met him, and he said they were quite willing to buy Infosys at $1 million US. And I said, 'Sir, please give me some time because I have six younger colleagues of mine. Their aspirations and their hopes are probably stronger than mine. So I will listen to them, and then we'll have discussions, and then if we agree unanimously to the decision to sell, I'll come back to you.' So I arranged a meeting in our Jayanagar office in Bangalore. Two of my colleagues were abroad, and the rest were there in Jayanagar. There was one person who was very enthusiastic about selling. The other three in India were neither here nor there; they were okay, they were also perhaps very respectful of me, so they didn't want to oppose too much. And the two people from the US had to be very cryptic because those days it used to cost 32 rupees per minute of call to the USA. There were no interest rates, nothing. So you had to spend $32 US per minute of telephone. So they were very cryptic, and as they were thorough gentlemen, they said, 'We leave it to you.' But finally, my style was to listen to all my younger colleagues and then come and say what I wanted. So I told them, 'Look, we have run this marathon for the last eight full years. We have learned to make sacrifices. Our families have made huge sacrifices. They have made our lives very comfortable within whatever little we have, and our aspirations continue to be strong. Yes, it does look like we are passing through a dark tunnel, but I do believe that we will see light at the end of the day pretty soon.' And they all agreed. They were all very kind. Even my colleagues have been extraordinary people, very kind people, very decent human beings with high aspirations. They agreed. But as luck would have it for us, 1991, under the leadership of Sri P.V. Narasimha Rao, Dr. Manmohan Singh, aided by Shri Montek Singh Ahluwalia and P. Chidambaram, ushered in the liberalization. And that's when licensing was abolished, current account convertibility was introduced, the role of government in determining the IPO price was removed, the control of capital issues was abolished. That gentleman sat in Delhi had no idea of the stock exchange. So a lot of good things happened, and then we started growing.
So what was the bleak period like? What was that dark tunnel like? What was the most difficult moment? There are anecdotes we've heard about how during one client engagement, you have said you were so tired you had to sleep in a store room. And we would like our viewers to know that behind every legend there is always a backstory, and I'm sure we would like to learn from the difficulties that Mr. Narayan Murthy has faced pre-1991. Can you tell us in as much personal detail as possible, sir, because we'll relate to it. The dark period. What was it like? What was the issue? What was the moment of despair? And that's when someone was trying to buy you and you still held on. So we want to know the difficult period at that time.
Well, there were several incidents that could have sapped our energy, our enthusiasm. But what kept us going was our passion and our dream. Because when I returned from France, my desire was to conduct an experiment in entrepreneurship and see if that could succeed in India, because I had studied all the isms. I had studied socialism, communism, libertarianism, and capitalism and had come to the conclusion that capitalism, which offers free market competition and entrepreneurship, was the only solution for countries like India to create more and more jobs and solve the problem of poverty. Coming to the incidents, you know, we used to stay in the most dangerous part of New York City. I don't want to say that because I don't want... States in the republic, we speak very freely.
No, but no, you have that authority. The world pardons you easily. It doesn't pardon me, so I have to be careful.
Anyway, so we used to stay in extremely expensive hotels where it was very dangerous, and our dinner used to be at McDonald's, just French fries. I remember one night when my flight from India got delayed. It reached at about 11:30 at night. Those days we would take buses from JFK to Manhattan. There was no bus. So I slept in the airport. I washed my hands and my face in the morning right in the airport and sprinkled some water and all of that, and I went to make a presentation to the client. I think not just me, my colleagues too, they have made such sacrifices, or whatever it is, because it all came from their passion to succeed in their objective. But none of those things seemed to make an impact on our enthusiasm, on our confidence, on our hope. Because just like when I was a child where there were 11 mouths, where we would get at best one new pair of shirt and shorts maybe sometimes once in two years, but we were very happy. We spent a lot of time with each other. New friends would come home. Whatever little we had, we would share. So I somehow, I am somewhat biased to say that happiness does not depend as much on material comfort as mental comfort. That is the milieu I came from. So, for example, a few of my younger colleagues' wives, they were very rightly articulating, 'It's eight years, still nobody has got even a scooter, forget about a... What is it that we are trying to do?' But the husbands explained to them why it is so, how the future will be, why we should not hesitate to continue this journey, etc. So that desire, that determination, that passion, I think, is what kept us going. So, having come from a poor background, lack of material comfort has not impacted me as much as most people think.
Can I ask a question on behalf of Gen Z? I'm not Gen Z, but I'll ask a question on their behalf.
I'm a millennial. I'll ask a Gen Z question.
You never thought about work-life balance at that time. So...
No, I have to ask the question. The moment I entered, 'What about your work-life balance while you were having French fries, traveling on the bus, sleeping in dangerous places, making sacrifices for 15 years?' All of you people listen, making sacrifices for 15 years. Nowadays, after one week of joining Republic, some people tell us, 'What is our work-life balance?' So...
No, I think that's a very valuable...
I wanted to give an honest reply because I know this is going to go viral.
You know, let me start with what one of my friends, who also was one of India's very successful corporate leaders, said. Probably Arnab, you may remember it. It was at the Economic Times CEO Awards, 26 years ago. He was being interviewed, and I don't know whether it was one of the James or somebody was interviewing him. So he asked him the same question: 'What is your view on work-life balance?' Now, that gentleman gave a brilliant answer. He said, 'Sir, first we should all get a life, then we should worry about work-life balance.' So he said the need of the country is to ensure that those of us who God has smiled on would work hard, work in a disciplined manner, work smart, and create opportunity for those people who still do not have any jobs, so that they too can have a life, and then we can worry about work-life balance. You know, I mean, you know that you yourself are probably the most hardworking person here. Why? Because I haven't seen... That's what my father used to say, that's what my mother did. You know, from 6:00 AM in the morning using wood. Wood was what we used in our kitchen. There was no coal, nothing, no gas stove, nothing. Wood. And sometimes that used to be wet. And I have seen my mother do that from 6:00 AM to night 10:00 PM in the kitchen. So my personal view is that I haven't seen anybody in the world who has achieved anything without hard work. Only because of what you have done, what your team has emulated looking at you, you have this wonderful place. It would not have come by your talk. It only came because of what you did. That's why I often say performance leads to recognition, recognition leads to respect, and respect leads to power. Therefore, if India wants power, it has to perform. No words will satisfy.
So, what about this argument that is being put? Since I'm right now putting myself as a global ambassador of Gen Z, you know, they'll say, 'Oh, Mr. Narayan Murthy, in your time, in Arnab's time, it's okay. We are the new, mobile, trendy. We're a different kind of people. You don't even understand the words we use. You know, so you may have had to work hard. It was your compulsion. It was the national situation. Unfortunate that wood was used there. By the way, my grandmother also used wood, I remember that. But we are different. You didn't need a work-life balance. Unfortunate. Too bad for you, Mr. Narayan Murthy. We want it.' What would you say to them? Because you triggered a national debate. You know, I don't know if you know. You said you went to work at 6:00 in the morning and worked there till 9:00 in the evening or something. And you said that you've done 70-plus hours a week for 40 years.
Actually, yes, they all know what you said. Do you, Mr. Narayan Murthy? The nation wants to know.
Yeah. You know, I will, being an engineer, I will use data and facts. I don't want to use perceptions, biases, and opinions. I have spoken to a lot of politicians all over the world, developed world, developing world, etc. I have spoken to a lot of corporate leaders, Fortune 20 corporate leaders, Fortune 50, all of that. I have spoken to extremely well-known professors. I used to be on several top universities in the US and in India, of course, also. But one thing has come through, and that is: no individual, no community, no country has ever come up without hard work. When I say hard work, not going to the office and sleeping there. When I say hard work, it means hard and smart work. Let me give you a few data points. I was speaking to one of the top five astrophysicists in the world. He has produced some 70-plus papers in Nature. I don't know, in India, if some people produce four or five, it's considered to be great. So I asked him, 'What is it that makes you achieve this? Is it because you're very bright?' He said, 'Look, people all around me are as smart as I am. There is no shortage of intelligence. However, what distinguishes me from those other people is that I have put in a lot more hard work. My family has fully cooperated with me in my doing this, and therefore I have achieved.' For example, my belief is that our respected Prime Minister must be working 100 hours a week. I don't think he's working any less. Most of his cabinet colleagues must be working. Many of the bureaucrats would be working. I have spoken to top cricketers. They have also told me that at the end of the day, it is practice, practice, practice, and that's hard work. So, I believe that hard work is necessary for success of any individual, any community, any country. Let me come to a point. In China, there is a famous saying which is practiced even today. Last year, Katamaran senior and middle-level staff went to China, and they went to tier-one cities, tier-two cities, and tier-three cities. They stayed in tier-three kind of hotels because we wanted to understand the real China. And you know, there is a saying there: '996'. You know what it means? 9 AM to 9 PM, 6 days a week. And that is 72 hours a week, friends. Now, if you look at Germany, when Germany was defeated in World War II by the Allies, the German Chancellor met with the corporate leaders and he said, 'Look, it is our job to build a new Germany. And that requires all of us to work very hard.' And he said, 'If you, the leaders of your corporations, work hard, then people will start trusting your words, so everybody will work hard.' And Germany rebuilt itself in a matter of seven to eight years. So my belief is that at this point of time, thanks to the extraordinary work done by our respected Prime Minister and his cabinet colleagues and various state chief ministers, we are at an important point of inflection. We have crossed Japan, gone to $4 trillion plus. As we saw, when the Prime Minister took over, we were the 10th largest. Today, we are the fourth largest. This is the time when we shouldn't give up. This is the time when we have toned our body, we have toned our mind to run this marathon and complete it. Therefore, it is the responsibility of every leader assembled here to create trust in their words amongst the youngsters and then say, 'We are all running a noble marathon. We are all supporting our Prime Minister. We all want to create an India of which posterity can be proud.' And this is the only way we can give lives to a large number of Indians who still don't have jobs. What is the value of human life unless you can share and care, as my mother used to say? You know, I mean, sometimes youngsters would say, 'Don't know what is this. We are already 11 people eating. Why have you brought one more child?' She would say, 'Child, it is very important for you to share and care. Otherwise, you are not a human being. The beauty of human beings is that it has given us the power of thinking and the power to articulate, the power to listen and react. That's the unique thing about human beings.' And she would say, 'If you do not practice these values today, you will not be a worthwhile human being. Your life will be a waste.' So, my view is that while I respect the views of all those wonderful youngsters, it's normal at their age, but it is the responsibility of us, the elders, to impress upon them the need for building up this country, the need for girding up our loins and then say we'll complete this marathon started by our respected Prime Minister. And that requires every one of us to work a little bit harder. I think it is our responsibility. If the country fails to get to $10 trillion, it is our failure, not the failure of the youngsters, because we have not been able to convince them of the need for building up that India of $10 trillion, that Viksit Bharat that our Prime Minister wants. You know, finally, let me tell you once. In 2008, I went to Beijing. Today, I think Infosys has five large development centers in China. That's my understanding. I left Infosys in 2014. They had just built their Olympics in July. I landed there in March or April. Huge airport. Brilliant. Absolutely top quality. And then I go to the immigration officer, very well-dressed, very sophisticated. She did all her work very quickly. And then I said, 'Ma'am, congratulations. I'm very impressed.' You know what her reaction was? 'Sir, but you should know we are Chinese.' I mean, look at the pride in the nation. Look at that pride in the nation. Look at that confidence. Look at how, as a Chinese, she had to demonstrate to foreigners that Chinese were perfect. So I think it is the responsibility of all of us here, and much more so important people in your community, because media is a very powerful instrument to communicate to youngsters how this country can achieve its extraordinary vision set by our Prime Minister. What I would suggest, Arnab, is this: you people do extraordinary things. Why don't you kindly produce a series wherein you show 10 hardworking, intelligent youngsters from different parts of the country trying to build that Viksit Bharat? I think that will impress and make sure it is in Hindi, it is in English, it is in Kannada, Bengali, whatever, because the value of that will be so extraordinary. Sorry, I took it.
I will certainly take that at face value. It takes me back when you were talking about hard work. You know, I once interviewed Sachin Tendulkar, and I have this bad habit: I keep repeating one question about 20 times. So I kept asking Sachin, 'Why don't you retire, Sachin? Why don't you retire?' This way or that. And that's the question nobody likes to hear. Nobody likes to hear 'Why don't you retire?' But the national debate around that time was on why Sachin Tendulkar is not retiring. And then later, about a few weeks or months back, I'd gone for lunch to the Mumbai Cricket Association dining hall, and I saw that on a very, very hot Mumbai sweltering afternoon, I saw Sachin Tendulkar come out for batting practice. Sir, this is towards the end of his career, and I've been very critical of Sachin on many issues. I keep saying, 'Why doesn't he speak on match-fixing and things like that?' I still disagree. But I want to tell you one positive thing here, sir. I was sitting and having lunch, and I saw Sachin Tendulkar come out with all his pads and everything, and about 10 people behind him for bowling practice, batting practice. I tell you, sir, the average temperature must have been around 40, but with humidity and all, Mumbai can get very difficult. I don't know, but Sachin must have been towards his retirement, so well over 40. He kept practicing one shot. The people who were bowling at him were getting tired and going away. But he kept at it. And I saw him practice that one shot at least for three or four hours. And I found that totally incredible. Which brings me to a beautiful word I want to share, sir, called tenacity. The ability to do something repeatedly over and over again. Absolutely. Isn't that a very important human trait, sir? You know, we all want different experiences in life. And when I quit my job, I was told once that we don't like the fact that you're going, but you've got to be tenacious to succeed. Do you relate to that word, sir? Tenacious. So that we don't get bored. We are not perfect till we get it right for a long period of time. Building Infosys must have been like that, right? I mean, you don't go and hit the NASDAQ. Everyone wants to know that you got this multi-billion dollar entry at the NASDAQ, but nobody wants to know what happened between 1981 and 2001. Tell us about tenacity in that sense. What was the tenaciousness you had to show as a leader, the hard work you had to put in?
Well, you know, you put it very well. You used the right word: tenacity. It's a very important aspect of the mindset of an entrepreneur. The whole world around you says, 'I will succeed. I will succeed to do that.' As I pointed out earlier, performance is the only thing. Performance needs practice. Performance needs action. Performance needs taking decisions. And almost in any case, in any issue, it is hard work, discipline, constantly learning and improving from your work and observing people better than you, being open-minded to learn from others. That is what is needed. And that's the only way. I mean, if you built this wonderful thing five years ago, it was not there. It all happened because it originated as an idea in your mind, and it slowly took shape. Of course, you had wonderful colleagues, there is no doubt, but that idea started in your mind. And that idea started in your mind because you had the audacity to dream something which everybody thought was impossible. So, an entrepreneur like you, you're a great example of a successful entrepreneur. You go after plausibly impossible dreams. And as Abdul Kalam used to say, 'Everything starts with a dream.'
Everything starts with a dream.
And then only it becomes reality.
True. But audacity you mentioned and tenacity. Do we have the audacity to beat China? It's a very important thought because I really love it when you say, and I always tell people in Republic, believe in the higher purpose. Believe in the higher purpose. The newsroom you went to, sir, it's not 'got news first' written or 'nation first'. Contribute to the country. You are also saying work 72 hours not for yourself, not for your EMI bank balance, but because what you're doing will make a difference to this country. Now we need to beat China, sir. We need a bigger dream, don't we? We need a bigger dream. We need to beat China. And when they come here, when the Chinese come here at immigration, when they see our processes... Because I know, sir, your son-in-law has been British Prime Minister and all that, but I don't mind what I'm going to say next. I love the United Kingdom. Sir, I studied at Oxford University. Of course, I was a fellow at Cambridge University. I've lived many years of my life in the UK. But when I went in 1993, when I went there as a 20-year-old, first time I went abroad, sir, you know, I landed with Leander Paes. We were on the same flight. We are the same age. I smuggled myself up to business class as the air hostess told Leander that there are three poor Indian students sitting in economy. Lift kar, and we were taken up. And Leander took us. We went business plus. And when I landed, I was looking around like you've landed on another planet. I was seeing cans of Coke everywhere. I thought it was all free. And then I saw phone booths. It was a different world. Today, sir, when I land from Heathrow and I land in Bengaluru or I land in Mumbai, I feel I've come from a developing to a developed world. Today, sir, I truly believe that we've made a big difference as a country. You said on China's role model, sir, you said if we can provide a hassle-free environment for entrepreneurs and businessmen, if we make policies that make their growth faster and easier, we can not only match China but surpass it. But you've also cautioned that the ambition to become a global manufacturing hub is still audacious given China's lead. But surely we can do more to catch up, sir. Surely we can do more to catch up. So is it too aspirational to think about outgrowing China in manufacturing or anywhere else? And what do we need to do given we are a democracy?
Well, I think it's a good question. Given that we have moved so far at a reasonable pace, 6.5-7% economic growth, I do believe that it is possible to catch up with China. But China is about approximately six times our GDP, and that's a tall order, no doubt about it. But, you know, I once asked a mountain climber who had climbed the Himalayas, 'How do you know when you stand at the foot of the Himalayas? What is your thought? How do you become confident?' He said, 'Look, I have been brought up to do what I think is impossible for me. And the way that I have been taught is to use the power of my mind, the power of my body, and discipline, and finally high aspiration.' Therefore, if we have high aspiration, if we have great ideas, if we back it up with extraordinary action in every aspect...
Every citizen, every bureaucrat, every politician, every corporate leader, every civil society leader, I do think we can do that. But the job is not easy. We must realize the job is not easy. It requires each one of us to set high benchmarks for our own actions. And it is the sum of those that will make India reach China.
What is the hurdle? What is the one big hurdle?
No, there are, first of all, our mindset.
What about the mindset? Piyush Goyal said recently at an entrepreneurs conclave, startup conclave. I think he said the problem is you people think you're doing startup but you're only delivering food, doing food delivery. I didn't say that. No, you didn't say that. Piyush Goyal said that. So all the...
So you only spoke about working about 150 hours a week, sir, but...
No, no, but Piyush Goyal said you said mindset. I think there's a mindset problem, sir. I think there is a mindset problem. We have to redefine what our understanding of startups and entrepreneurship is. I think Piyush Goyal was absolutely correct when he said everybody wants to do a Zomato in this country, nobody wants to do manufacturing. But there are people who are doing robotics, people who are doing drones, there are people who are working in new areas.
What you referred four times so far to mindset. What is the mindset issues? Can you elaborate on that?
You know, my friend Romesh Michelle Khar used to teach me a very important lesson about 40 years ago. He said every one of us is constantly battling between our mindset and our mind. What is mindset? Mindset is the database of our experiences of fear, dilemma, lack of confidence, hopelessness, etc. And mind is the engine that says I will overcome that. And he told me, 'Murthy, remember that if you want to succeed, you have to win the battle in favor of mind over mindset when you are confronted with a very tough situation.' So if every one of us says, for example, we have to enhance transparency, we have to enhance accountability of bureaucracy. We have to set global benchmarks in terms of how quickly we approve foreign indirect investment, in terms of how we have to reduce the number of times people have to come to Delhi for approvals, domestic people. We have to ensure that there is honesty in approvals. Many, many things we should do. Similarly, we entrepreneurs, we have to look at a noble objective and that is I want to create 10,000 jobs, 20,000 jobs, 100,000 jobs and towards that in the short term and medium-term I am willing to make whatever sacrifice is needed because at the end of the day I want to reach that aspirational goal. Our education system has to change from one of rote learning to one of understanding the problems around us using what is taught in the class.
And many, but given the fact, sorry to interrupt. I want to go on what Piyush Goyal said because given this Shark Tank culture which has come in right now where people are looking at valuation, not value, exit, not legacy, advertising, not product. What Piyush Goyal said was very interesting, sir. He highlighted a worrying trend in our startup ecosystem. Can I play that sound bite please and then I would like to pick your brain because I thought it was a very interesting soundbite. Do we have the sound bite of Piyush Goyal? Yeah. Can we play that?
What are India's startups doing today? We are focused on food delivery apps turning unemployed youth into cheap labor so the rich can get their meals without moving out of their house. And against that, what does a Chinese startup do? Work on developing electric mobility, battery technologies, and with that they're today dominating the electric mobility ecosystem. We are very proud of what India has done. But are we the best in the world as yet? Not yet. Should we aspire to be or are we going to be happy being delivery boys and girls? Look at the second one. I've been going through a lot of our startup success stories and when I go all over the country, we often have startups presenting to us what work they're doing. Fancy ice cream and cookies. In fact, I know at least three or four billionaires whose children make one brand or the other very fancy ice creams and cookies and run a very successful business. And I have no complaint against that. But is that the destiny of India? Healthy ice cream, zero gluten-free, whatever, I don't know, vegan. Entrepreneurship, business, intelligence. They are investing heavily to become self-reliant, building chips, AI models which will prepare the nation for the future.
It's a very important point. Do we want to make ice cream or chips? What are Indian startups doing today? We are prioritizing food delivery apps turning unemployed youth into low-wage gig workers so that the wealthy can get their meals delivered without stepping out. Are we just here for retail? It's very rare that a minister makes a very direct point but I think it's what is your take on that, Mr. Murthy?
Well, you know, I have a lot of affection for Piyush. I know him well. He's a wonderful minister. Let me state my view. There are two most important requirements for an entrepreneur to succeed and these are the things that he or she must do. First, an idea whose differentiated business value compared to existing ideas will take market share away from existing players. That is a novel idea, an innovative idea. Second, you must conduct a very simple, inexpensive experiment to assess the market. How do you assess? You look at the disposable income, you look at the importance of what product you are offering, whether that product is absolutely necessary for people or not. So without that market opportunity, no idea will succeed. And third, you need competent and value-based talent. These are the three things. Money and all will come easily. Now if our youngsters are going to make what, like Zomato or retail like Flipkart or Amazon, etc., the reality of India is that that is what people can buy given their disposable income. Let's not confuse here. If you say I want to make Google glasses which will give me access to the internet, there are very, very few people. Let me give you one simple example. You know, I use a patch here to measure my blood sugar level on a real-time basis. It costs about 4,700 rupees per piece and you need two pieces per month. In other words, you need approximately 10,000 rupees. There is not even 0.1% of the population that can afford to buy that. So blaming the entrepreneurs that they are going to make some food delivery or this or that, I don't know, maybe Piyush is more intelligent than me, but for my limited intelligence, I would say that I would look at our market, the disposable income of people, buyers, and then I want to succeed. You know, as Voltaire once said in French, that means there's only one life, I want that life to be as better as possible. Therefore, whether it is food delivery or something else. Let me tell you, in China how China started. China started, in fact, even Japan, forget about China. Japan, you were not born at that time so you wouldn't know, in the early '50s, Japanese made toys, they were not very good, they used to break down, but gradually they went from toys to radios, then to transistors, then to TV, etc. So we also should create such a strategic path. You know, in the '70s, we had a policy called phased manufacturing program in '75. That first manufacturing program said we want to encourage people to make parts in India. I don't know what some brilliant bureaucrat did. He reduced the duty on finished products to such a low thing and very high on importing parts. You know what happened? People simply imported the finished product. You see, this is where you need to think very carefully. You need to think what is the impact of our policy? How will it affect jobs? How will it affect India's exports? How will it affect our domestic thing? So I am not experienced in public governance system. So I am not the right person to comment, but my own interactions with entrepreneurs tells me that these are the three things: one, an innovative idea; second, a market which suits the disposable income; and third, a set of smart and value-based talent. That's all.
So you'd already hit the NASDAQ by 2001. Atal Bihari Vajpayee was prime minister. 1999?
99, Atal Bihari Vajpayee was prime minister. We had H.D. Deve Gowda, Inder Kumar Gujral.
Dr. Manmohan Singh, now Narendra Modi. Nobody asked you to join their cabinet.
I'm just thinking, it would have been a good thing, wouldn't it? A man who knows how to scale up an institution.
Well, you would have done brilliantly, I'm sure. You have been offered sometimes, and I'm sure that thought has crossed your mind because you would have been, you would still be, by the way, very effective in government?
I mean, you are very kind.
No, I'm not. All the youngsters would be very happy because then you'll go and make the bureaucrats work 100 hours a week.
But you would have been great, I think.
No, but again, you know this better than I do. Private conversations between the prime ministers and ordinary citizens are not for public consumption. I think you are a great motivational speaker. I took out plates on the phase two on the genesis and building of Infosys. Our team was researching. We found some wonderful quotes of you and I'm going to lead on from there to your dear friend and our dear friend Dr. Mohandas Pai, what he has to say for you. You said that performance leads to recognition. Recognition brings respect and respect enhances power. I think that's a fantastic quote. You also said a ship is safest at the harbor but that's not where it's supposed to be. Leading on to that, I think your most brilliant quote, which I want you to talk more about, where you said that growth is painful, change is painful, but nothing is as painful as staying stuck where you do not belong. This is a beautiful quote.
Thank you.
Could you please elaborate briefly on this particular quote?
Well, you know, these are some of the quotes that I used in talking to my younger colleagues. They're all extraordinary. They're all extraordinary people, highly motivated, very capable. But sometimes they too would get a little bit frustrated in convincing their younger colleagues because not all of them were as, well, I don't know the right word, aggressive as I was. Okay. So I had to sit down with them and tell them that yes, we are putting our youngsters into a very painful situation because you need to work hard, you need to think a lot, you need to work in teams, you need to subordinate your ego to the idea of some other people whose ideas are better. All these are painful. But I said at the end of the day, that's the only way you can escape this painful orbit and go to the next orbit. So they would then use some of their own stories and communicate to younger people. You know, from being Infosys's first chairman and CEO from 1981 to 2002, then executive chairman till 2011, you raised it from a Pune apartment to a $100 billion NASDAQ-listed company in that era. And there's one man, one very close friend of yours, one man who had a great association with you and with Republic, by the way, who has this surprise message for you, sir. Please let's have a look.
I'm happy to know that Republic is paying a tribute to Shri Narayana Murthy. Narayana Murthy is a legend. He's a person who, along with his colleagues and others, built Infosys, built a great industry, the IT industry, and took this country forward at a time when India had opened up and got respect for Indians and India globally. He focused on creating global standards for the industry and for Infosys. He achieved that by sheer personal grit and hard work. He inspired thousands of people to follow a path of good corporate governance. He set standards in every aspect of life. He took his company to NASDAQ for the first time, got global recognition, and at a time when India was not reckoned to be part of the global technology scenario, he made sure that India is widely recognized. A lot of credit goes to him for creating a $250 billion export industry and creating 60 lakh jobs. There are so many people whom he has helped by providing them the skills and a platform to work in, and he has made sure that everybody who worked with him and industry were proud of what they have done in the '90s and the first two decades of the 21st century. Narayana Murthy certainly was the star in the epoch where India was lacking behind and India just opened up economically. He made sure that India got its rightful place. If today India is the third largest digital power, a lot of praise should go to Narayana Murthy and Infosys for doing what they did. I worked with Narayana Murthy since 1994 as CFO of Infosys, reporting to him, then as a board member and a senior close quarters. His great qualities of heart and mind. He led by example. He was a man of great integrity. He never, never asked anybody to do anything wrong. He always set standards in whatever he did and he made sure that we created a global industry by looking at global markets. He also made sure that the West's confidence in India went up by creating fantastic infrastructure, training facilities for people, treating people with great respect, starting the largest ESOP plan to make sure that people could participate in the growth of the company and in making sure that investors made a lot of money buying Infosys shares from the IPO and onwards. All this has changed India tremendously and today if the Indian passport has some respect all around the world, a great deal of credit should go to Narayana Murthy. I want to congratulate Republic and to tell Mr. Narayana Murthy that he deserves a Bharat Ratna for his great work as a business leader, as a great citizen, and a person who transformed India. Thank you.
I think we all echo that sentiment. He is extremely kind, very generous. He was one of the most important players of the think tank at Infosys. He brought so many innovations. I learned a lot from him and so therefore I am very, very grateful to him. My only regret is that for some reason our country has not been able to use him at a much larger macro scale.
Because I haven't seen anybody else who came out with such brilliant ideas.
And I only hope that this lacuna that I pointed out will be corrected and that Mohandas will add value to the country at a very high level in our public governance system.
Absolutely. I think all of us who know him would feel the same. Mr. Murthy, you have once famously said that to me, patriotism is about working ethically and wholeheartedly in our chosen field, and that's a powerful thought, that's unparalleled inspiration to our youngsters. And here is a youngster inspired by your values, someone who knows you very closely and has followed your journey every minute, every day, and who's amongst the few people who has seen you unlike anyone else. Can you please play that second video message for Dr. Narayana Murthy?
Asked, 'What is it that I've learned from my father's life?' And to me, his organizing principle that he has lived most consistently by is respect above all else. And I think he attempts to achieve this through a couple of avenues, a couple of traits. The first of which is he most consistently lives by the philosophy that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, to quote Star Trek. That is, he's always putting the larger interests of either the company he founded or society he lives in or the country he's from, which of course India, above his own personal considerations, and he does this consistently. It's perhaps more plausible to do this in small bursts, but it's very hard to constantly, to a fault, to be able to do it consistently, and that's something that really stands out when I look at his life. The second is, I asked him once, 'What is your definition of patriotism?' and he said, 'Look, saying and doing the right thing, particularly when no one is looking.' And whether it is his country or whether it is the institution he founded and ran, he was never afraid to speak the truth, never afraid to do the right thing, never afraid to do an unpopular thing as long as it served a larger purpose and a larger interest. And I have seen him under tremendous pressure often where the easier thing is to let go and to just not do the right thing, but he has never shied away. That's just not how he is built. And in those moments, he has tremendous courage, tremendous clarity of purpose. Nothing sways him because he believes he should do the right thing. And the third key trait is his ability to be generous. Perhaps the best example of this is to see the history of Infosys itself from its very founding. If you look at the cap table, no founder anywhere in the world, no senior founder like him anywhere in the world at any point in time would have ever given away as much, shared as much wealth or equity as he would. It's just not practical, nor is it the way that the world works. Of course, there will be all the stock options and so on later on, but this is something I think many startup founders will find quite interesting and useful and relevant in how do you go about sharing equity. And finally, I find that he has, to achieve respect above all else, he has gratitude for people in his life throughout his life. It doesn't matter who they are, who have helped him or who have shaped him. And most often these are not people who are very well known. They have money or power, but his gratitude to them has been eternal. And it's very important because the lesson that I've taken away observing how grateful he is even after 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years to people is that it keeps him rooted. In fact, he often reminds me saying the good that has happened in his life is a function of luck and the people he's crossed paths with. And I think that stems from his ability to always remain grateful to people and to not forget how people have actually helped him throughout his life. So these are four traits that I attempt to emulate. I don't know how successful I am on a consistent basis because my father is, if nothing else, he's consistent in following these, but they've influenced me significantly and the older I grow, the more I realize that these are perhaps good ways to live life.
Well, I think the biggest compliment you can get is from your own child. You know, thank you because he's a... I have a lot of admiration for him because he has done something which I never could do. He has got a PhD in computer science from Harvard. He was at MIT. He was a member of the Society of Fellows at Harvard where they select only 12 people out of 800 PhDs that appear for that contest every year. So I feel very grateful. Thank you for that thing and I'm very grateful to Rohan.
Last two questions, sir. Is AI a bubble or will it last? And how does it challenge players like Infosys and the IT base of India that you built?
You know, AI is not a bubble because it is based on very strong theoretical principles. Whether it is machine learning or deep learning, both are based on very powerful theoretical principles: multiple regression as well as neural networks. Now we have generative AI which was founded by OpenAI. They have given us the power of using the entire internet as your database using large language models. The need of the day for us is to use AI as an assistive tool rather than as a replaceive tool wherever it is possible. For example, in autonomous driving, I would prefer autonomous cars to cars driven by Indian drivers because I see a lot of accidents every day. So I look forward to the day when there will be autonomous cars on our roads. Second, remote surgery, remote precision surgery is extraordinary. Third, you can use it to enhance our agricultural productivity. So there are many, many areas where we can use AI in an assistive manner. But what I have found is that any tool is as good as the person who uses it. You know, two or three years ago, I don't remember, Rohan, my son Rohan, told me, 'Dad, what is this? You are not using generative AI.' So he showed me how to use it and I started using it for my speeches. Before I used generative AI, I would take approximately about 30 hours for preparing a lecture, in other words 4 days. But today I can do it in about 6 hours, in other words my productivity has improved by a factor of 80%. I also conducted an experiment. I found that the quality of the draft is proportional to the smartness with which I write out my prompts or questions. The prompts which are better thought out by me will produce a better draft. If I don't use that much time, if I don't think that much and put in some prompt, I'll get an ordinary draft. So my belief is that there will always be opportunity for bright and hardworking people in this world, whether it's India or US or whatever it is, whether it's AI or something else. But because at the end of the day if you are bright, if you're hardworking, you can use all these tools as your helping tools rather than your masters. Only those of us who do not do this, we are the ones who will become their slaves. So I am not worried about AI. In the past, we had the case tools which came up in 1975. The whole world said that programming will go away, design will go away, all of that. It didn't happen because the human mind started building complex systems and case tools couldn't handle. So I'm very positive.
We love globally scalable models. Recently on our campus, Sridhar Vembu had come, a great man.
Wonderful person, you know, building Zoho. Very inspiring, isn't he? Sridhar Vembu, Zoho, building globally scalable models. It's exciting to hear about taking on Microsoft, Google, and all the other platforms globally. Do you think we are going to build our globally scalable models very soon and what's the time frame for that? When will we have our own major deep tech, global foundational tech companies?
You know, that issue is a very deep one. Unless we evolve our educational system, we will do a DeepMind 5 years from now. That is gone, per se.
Gone. I mean, OpenAI is there, Google Gemini is there, something else is there. All of that is there. But that's too late. Why? Because our education system has taken us to the level that we can apply the ideas invented elsewhere to produce something. That's what India has achieved at the highest level. In fact, you know, when I was at Infosys, out of 33 years, when we got the customer feedback, about 30 times our customers said, 'Your employees are extraordinary. They are very hardworking. They will not leave the office until they complete. However, we have not come across a single occasion where they came out with an independent thought and say, you know, I have this idea. If you use this idea, you can improve your productivity this much.' In other words, what they were saying was, 'You Indians are very wonderful people. You work hard, you're bright, but you will only do well what we ask you to do.' Almost everywhere, whether it's some Zohos, Flipkart, everything is something that was invented elsewhere. Let's be very clear. So how do we sort it out? The way to sort it out is to transform our education systems starting from primary level to emphasize on using classroom theory first to understand nature. What is the meaning of saying sun rises in the east? You know, why does the noise go away when the car moves away from me? Like that, many questions. Second level is to say why is nature like this? The laws that I know somehow this doesn't seem to fit that. For example, how did Einstein come out with his special theory of relativity? What he found was he was studying the perihelion of Mercury. You know, Mercury is nearest to the sun, it is just 29 million miles from the sun, whereas Earth is 92 million miles, and in between is of course Venus. So Einstein found that the movement of Mercury did not follow Newton's laws. So he said there must be something here, and that's when he came out with the impact of gravity, and that's how he came out with special theory and then general theory of relativity. The point I'm making is similarly, look at quantum mechanics, same thing. Niels Bohr and Schrodinger and others came out with this unbelievable concept called quantum mechanics. That is the need of the day. In other words, help our children to first explain nature through what they learn in the classroom, and at the second level, to help us to observe the anomalies of nature and then sort it out. For example,
AI can't do that, right? AI now everything is outsourced to AI.
It is all here. If you use AI, it will only improve your productivity. AI will...
Well, that's a very loaded question because certain instances it can, certain instances it cannot. But the fundamental issue I'm talking about is you. It is the human mind that has to primarily be the innovator, and if that happens in the country, then everything will happen. That's beautiful, sir. So my very last question today: I saw you singing Elvis Presley style for Sudha Murthy. She's not here. It's good. Are you a crooner, sir? Croon, I mean, and also about Sudha Murthy, we've not spoken much about her. She's amazing, isn't she? She's amazing.
Between the two of us, I'm the luckier, that's what I would say.
Who speaks more in the house, sir? Obviously she.
Well, I mean, I think it's been an absolute pleasure to have you with us. This has been a learning morning for us. I intended this conversation to be a learning morning. I see some people want to ask you questions. I know you have a very, very strong schedule. But I'll tell you this, sir. So many people absolutely, you know, silently listening on and ingesting everything you said. I think we've learned a lot about your life. I've learned about your simplicity, your humility, your hard work, your sacrifice. And most importantly, I've figured out that you're a very authentic person. There's no mirror between what you say and how you feel. So, thank you for making it such a wonderful weekday morning for us. Shall we give him a nice strong round of applause this morning, please. Thank you. It's people like him, people like Mr. Narayana Murthy, who have built the nation, and whatever the youngsters in this country are inheriting is because of the hard work, sacrifice, perseverance, and tenacity of people like you. You're a true legend, sir. Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us today, sir. Thank you. Do we have a few questions? Okay, I'll take two questions. Two questions. Do we have a mic in the room?
But one first, a girl and then a boy. That's better, huh? Okay. First the lady, first the lady. Ladies first.
Okay. Can we put a mic out to... but not long questions.
I think you have a time schedule today.
Yes, of course. Thank you.
We Indians have a way of giving a speech before asking a question.
So was that meant for me, sir?
No, no, you can say directly.
No, no, your job is to... I do that every day. Thank you.
So I am Akansha Yadav and I want to ask one question, sir. How do you define success after achieving everything in your life? How do you define success now?
You know, I was asked this question a long time ago and I thought a little bit and said, success is the ability to bring a smile onto the face of people when you enter a room. That's how I define success.
Good afternoon, sir. My name is Sal Gupta. I'm an engineering technocrat turned into development. A very small question is about a suggestion rather. Our nation's philosophy was earlier 'Soshi, Sadasuki' and now a dynamic change is required because we need nation first with much ahead with a big philosophy mindset for ethically attained growth on a global scale. And the third pillar, what you tell that working so... My suggestion was there is nothing like work-life balance. There is no thin line. Work is happiness and you achieve happiness as long as you could, like you said for 70 hours. I do more than 72 hours a week. I'm a son of a freedom fighter too. So nation first. So we need those education to the current regime and generations that there is nothing like work-life differentiation. It is only one thing that is happiness through sustainable work. So what do you suggest for that? Thank you, sir.
No, I, you know, I have observed most poor people in India work very hard. For example, near my house there are lots of carts which sell vegetables, fruit, and all other, and they're standing 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours a day standing. I told my secretary the other day, 'Man, why don't we buy some chairs and give them?' Number two, my uncle was a farmer, my mother's elder brother. He had to leave at 6:00 a.m. and then he would be back at about 7:00 p.m. Factory workers work very hard. It is by and large this whole thing about work-life balance is an issue amongst white-collar workers. So my humble request to all these wonderful white-collar workers is to keep, as Mahatma Gandhi used to say, keep the life of those poor people in your mind when you work an hour extra, because if you can make a small difference in the life of those people, then everything is done. You know, the other day at home at about 6:30 in the morning, I saw a vegetable cart which was being pushed by a woman and there was a small child of probably 9 months on that cart along next to the vegetables. So I asked her in Kannada, 'What happened?' She said, 'Sir, my husband has run away, now there is nobody at home. I have to make two ends meet, so I'm bringing my child.' To me, you see, it is not our 4 trillion, 5 trillion, 10 trillion, they're all okay, but can you make the life of the poorest child in the remotest village in India better from the perspective of nutrition, healthcare, education, shelter? That's what the founding fathers wanted. So to me, real development is that, not per capita GDP of 4 trillion, 5 trillion, etc. When you see such a scene, you start weeping because that whole thing of our discussion everything becomes meaningless for that woman. So I think, you know, all the work-life balance, etc., it has to be seen in the context of the fact that we are a poor country. We're a poor country. Why? Because our per capita GDP is low. There's a lot of poverty around us. The government has been very kind to feed 800 million Indians with free ration. We give free electricity. All of that. Now this is the context that you and I have to imagine when we think of work-life balance. That's all right.
Very well. Once again, we thank Mr. Narayana Murthy for spending his valuable time with us, for making this a wonderful episode of 'The Legends'. Thank you so much, Mr. Narayana Murthy.
Today on 'Legends', ladies and gentlemen, we meet the man who turned a dream into one of India's proudest success stories. The Padma Vibhushan, the Padma Shri awardee, the founder of Infosys, and a leader who has inspired generations to aim high and stay grounded. Please welcome with a huge round of applause, Mr. Narayana Murthy, in conversation with our editor-in-chief, Mr. Arnab Goswami.
They're giving you a standing ovation right at the start. Mr. Narayana Murthy, it's an absolute privilege, pleasure. When you look at India's economic rise and you look at various reasons, I fundamentally think that it requires a coming together of vision and discipline which you represent. It requires a coming together of dreams and determination which you represent, and it also requires a synthesis, Mr. Narayana Murthy, of aspiration and pragmatism which you represent. For all the people in this hall and especially for all the youngsters, there can be no better role model, no better role model I can tell you than this great man sitting 2 meters to my left. Incredible.
Well, Arnab, first of all, thank you very much for this opportunity. You are one of the most important players in this constructive and pluralistic dialogue that is happening in our country about creating an India of which every one of us can be proud of. So therefore I thank you very much for your precious time and I am very grateful to you for this opportunity.
So we are, thank you very much for that. So we are looking upon this morning as a learning opportunity for all of us. We want to learn from you, learn from your stories, and then hear from anecdotes about your life and your experiences and take away something. Everyone watching on streaming, digital, physically will be looking forward to that. Sir, tell me about your childhood because every person's rise begins with where they are from. You were born in a modest middle-class family. Your father was a teacher. Your mother was a homemaker, and you've said that your parents taught you discipline, humility, and the importance of learning. Can you tell us about your childhood in terms of what learning it gave you in life?
Well, you know, my father was a high school teacher. We went from one mofussil town to another in Karnataka. We were 11 mouths to feed. But my mother believed in a practice that was prevalent in Karnataka at that time called 'Vana'. That translates to feeding a child from a poorer family once a week. So in other words, we used to have seven children from seven poorer families for dinner with us. In other words, my mother had to prepare for 12 children. And my father was a strict disciplinarian. His aspirations were very high. I still remember when I got the fourth rank for the state in SSLC, when I went and told him, he said, 'What happened to the other three?' And I worked hard and I got the third rank for the state for the pre-university course. And at that time I didn't go to him because I knew what the answer would be. He was a strict disciplinarian. Mother was full of compassion. She believed in sharing whatever little we had with poorer families. She believed in each child making sacrifice for other people. I had some of the finest teachers in my primary and secondary schools. The most important principle I learned from my high school headmaster was putting the interest of the country ahead of your personal interest. I still remember the incident. He was teaching us chemistry and I was sitting in the front row and he was trying to put a little bit of sodium chloride or common salt into the test tube. He was extremely careful and a colleague of mine burst out laughing. So then Mr. Keshava Narayan, my teacher, stopped the experiment and came to him and said, 'Young man, why did you laugh? What happened? What is so funny?' Children are generally very honest and he said, 'Sir, you are very stingy with common salt which is so inexpensive.' Then he said something that formed the foundation for my corporate governance principles. He said, 'Man, remember that this common salt belongs to the community of Sharadavilas High School. It belongs to you, it belongs to me, it belongs to all the 60 students in this class, students in other classes, etc. So because this is community property, I have to be extremely careful in how I use it. He said, 'At 5:00, this class finishes. You please come to my house. I will give you a glass full of common salt free because that is my personal property.' So therefore the imperative to put the interest of the community ahead of your personal interest formed such an important core of my corporate governance principles and I remain very grateful to all these people.
That's very good advice, sir, because nowadays we see in this Shark Tank age, everyone wants to have valuation immediately and everyone makes Ashneer Grover their role model. So that's very important for you. Corporate governance is sharing and responsibility, it's not showing off. Such a great principle you've started with, sir. And I also fundamentally believe in the principle of simple living and high thinking, sir.
So is it true that you could not join IIT because of financial constraints?
Can you tell us about what happened when you were about to go to college and is this story true that you cleared the IIT but you could not join it because of...
That is very true. In fact, I got a pretty high rank in the Joint Entrance Examination. But those days, the scholarship amount used to be given at the end of the year after the year was over in April-May. So I went to my father and said, 'Look, I have cleared the JEE now. I may go to either IIT Madras or to IIT Kharagpur, those were well-known ones to us, but it will cost about 60-70 rupees per month for the hostel.' He said, 'Look, my salary of 180 rupees is not enough to even manage these 11 people. Therefore, I don't think I'll be able to support you. I cannot take a loan of whatever 700-800-900 rupees because your scholarship will come at the end of the year. So my advice to you is to join the local engineering college and as long as you work hard, as long as you have a certain level of intellect, as long as you use that intellect to do well, you will succeed. Doesn't matter what college you go to.' So there were two of us who were selected from Mysore. The other one went and I didn't go, and he used to send me every week a letter on life at IIT Madras. So it is true, but you know, I didn't lose out by not going there. But that's a fact.
How did it, what kind of a setback was it for you psychologically? Because that's also a lesson for all of us, including young people, that when you don't get what you deserve and the only thing that you lack is financial resources. People often think, 'Oh, you know, this is...' I believe, Mr. Narayana Murthy, I was speaking at the startup park in Bengaluru last week. I said the most beautiful thing in life is starting from zero. But many people, especially young people, want to start with an advantage. You did not start with an advantage. He got into IIT and could not join because he did not have the money. So I want the life lesson that you learned from it and how did it prepare you for the future?
You know, it all depends on your context. Your aspirations are defined by your context. Your hopes and your dreams are defined by your context. So therefore, frankly, while I used to feel a little bit unhappy when I received those letters from Chandru, my classmate in pre-university and then he went on to IIT Madras, but because of the beauty of the teachings of Hinduism, which was my religion, which spoke about contentment, which spoke about doing whatever best you can do under a certain circumstance, because I was surrounded by extraordinary friends, because I was under the guidance of my parents and my grandmother, my wonderful teachers, I don't think it had much impact, that's what I would say.
But does adversity teach you and prepare you better for the future? Does it make you dream harder? Does it make you more hungry? Because when you started Infosys almost 18 years later, you must have been very hungry. You must have been like what, 36 years old? 35 years old? 10,000 rupees in your pocket. You had a job. You were by now an IITian and you had done your postgraduation from IIT Kanpur if I'm not mistaken. So you were sorted. You were living the middle-class dream. Everything was fine and then you gave it up and you wanted to start something. So I want the audience to relate between the Narayana Murthy who got admission to IIT and could not join because he did not have 60 rupees per month to pay for fees and the Narayana Murthy who at the age of 35 starts Infosys with 10,000 rupees. Did your early adversity make you more of a risk taker, Mr. Murthy?
You know, in some sense, I have been shaped by the compassion, generosity, and the conviviality of my mother. She had just passed her eighth class. She was from a village. My father's side, they were very highly educated. And she taught us the importance of contentment. She taught us the importance of generosity. She taught us the importance of working hard. She taught us the importance of moving up through hard work, discipline, and high aspirations. So I would say that it really did not matter too much. Just to give you an idea, when I founded Infosys...
And that's the story of a legend. Thank you, Mr. Murthy.
I invited six younger people, most of them were five to six levels below me. I took 1/10th the salary I was getting, but I ensured that all my other six fellows got at least 20% higher salary. I just kept only 23% of the equity. I gave 15% equity to people who had not even completed two years of work. And I have not come across another example of such a thing in India anywhere else. Maybe I'm ignorant. Now all of that I credit my mother. I'm extremely grateful that she gave me... that she taught me the importance of sharing, caring, and generosity.
Tell me about the Infosys start stories. Some anecdote we've read about it but something we don't know when you started Infosys, a story.
Well, you know, when I decided to found Infosys on December 26th, 1980, I spoke to my colleague Mr. Narayana Murthy on 29th of December 1980. Then I spoke to Mr. Kris Gopalakrishnan, who was the third person, on December 30th. And then I spoke to Sri Nandan Nilekani the next day, December 31st, 1980. Narayana Murthy and Kris immediately agreed to come on board. Nandan agreed immediately, but I told him, 'Friend, you're going to get married now.' He got married on 6th or 7th of January 1981. 'You may want to consult your fiancée and your future parents-in-law.' He says, 'No, no, no, that's not necessary.' I said, 'No man, please listen to me and go and do right.' So after 3-4 days, he came back with a sheepish smile and said, 'Mr. Murthy, would it be possible for you to come and meet my uncle, Sri D.G.I.' Sri D.G.I. was an entrepreneur who had founded D.G.I. Metal Works in Pune. He said, 'My parents-in-law want me to arrange a meeting between you and Sri D.G.I. He wants to talk to you and find out your idea of entrepreneurship.' I said most welcome. So Sudha and I went to Nandan's grand-uncle's house in Worli, and Sudha and Nandan's grand-uncle hit it off very well because they were both from the Indian Institute of Science. Of course, difference in years was there. D.G.I. and I went into about 2 hours of conversation about my idea of founding Infosys, why it is well-founded, why the probability of success is higher, all of that. And finally, Mr. D.G.I. seemed to have been quite satisfied with this middleman's crazy idea. And then he must have communicated to Mr. Suma Rohini's father, and then Nandan came back and said, 'Yeah, everybody is happy, now I will join you.' On the other hand, Kris Gopalakrishnan came from a business family, he said, 'No, I have no issue, I have lot of faith in you, I'll join.' Then we invited later on after about 3-4 months, we invited Sri S.D. Shibulal and Sri S.D. Arora. So that was one interesting incident which is probably worth mentioning. And it took about 20 to 50 visits to Delhi to get a license to import a computer. It took about 10 visits to even modify the license because in the US every month there used to be a new model of the equipment which was probably 50% more powerful but which was offered at 30% lower price. But getting the approval from the Government of India, the Department of Electronics, was a torturous affair. It took about 9 months.
Why was it made so difficult? Can you explain to everyone who would have no recollection of that time, to buy a computer would take a year's approval?
Well, first of all, our exports were very low. Second, we had to import our basic needs like oil, even some wheat, etc., because we had still not fully leveraged the power of the Green Revolution. So the government had to be extremely careful in releasing foreign exchange. I understand that, probably I would have done the same thing if I were in their position. But looking at it from the perspective of an entrepreneur, it was different because we were moving with the times. Our dreams were seeded in the most advanced nations in the world. So our expectations and the reality of India had a huge gap. So I understand, thanks to the 1991 reforms when we had only 15 days' worth of foreign exchange for imports. Today we have somewhere around $650 billion, which is an excellent...
The reason I emphasize this is because I believe it's always important to keep remembering how far we've come. How far we've come, and for many in this audience they would not have a living recollection of the India of 2010, 2005, 2000, leave alone the India of 1985. And for some of us who've seen how much we've come, we must remember how long a distance we have covered. Also for you, because after you launched Infosys there was a time, because this is very relevant nowadays, people make companies and they sell companies. You ask somebody, 'Why are you making a company?' 'For exit.' 'What are you doing a company for?' 'To sell it.' You ask somebody, 'What is this? What is the business plan?' 'It is a sale.' It is the truth. And this is the culture which unfortunately is being encouraged by these Shark Tank guys. The first thing you ask a person, he says, 'I want to make a cycle tire.' 'Why do you want to make a cycle tire?' 'Because I want valuation.' 'Why do you want valuation?' 'Because I want to sell this company as soon as I can.' And I say, sir, those who build a company to sell it are all frauds. And this fraudulent culture must stop in this country. It makes for good startup television, good 10 minutes of TV viewing, but it's rubbish. The question to you is this. In the late 1980s, some of your co-founders were forcing you to sell Infosys. Is that right? Can you tell us the inside story of what happened? Because Infosys nearly shut down. Nearly shut down. Some of your co-founders wanted to sell the company. You refused, and apparently you went around pleading, 'Give me one more chance. Give me one more chance.' Is this true, Mr. Narayana Murthy? Can we have the inside story of what happened on that occasion?
It is true. However, I would not put it the way you did because you have a different perspective.
No, no, no. Not way. No, no, no, no. A different perspective.
You know, that's the beauty of a pluralistic society. Your perspective is as right as mine. But I will stick to facts because I was part of it. What happened was, sometime in 1989, I met the head of finance of a large family company at Mumbai airport, and he said, 'You know, we are looking at acquiring a software business. Would it be possible for you to come and meet me?' I said, 'Sure,' because I wanted to see his perspective so that I can understand my business, my opportunities, etc., better. So I went and met him, and he said they were quite willing to buy Infosys at $1 million US. And I said, 'Sir, please give me some time because I have six younger colleagues of mine. Their aspirations and their hopes are probably stronger than mine. So therefore, I will listen to them, and then we'll have discussions, and then if we agree unanimously to the decision to sell, I'll come back to you.' So I arranged a meeting in our Jayanagar office in Bangalore. Two of my colleagues were abroad and the rest were there in Jayanagar. There was one person who was very enthusiastic about selling. Other three in India were neither here nor there; they were okay, they were also perhaps very respectful of me, therefore they didn't want to oppose too much. And the two people from the US had to be very cryptic because those days it used to cost 32 rupees per minute of call to USA; there was no internet, nothing. So you had to spend $32 US per minute of telephone. So they were very cryptic, and as they were thorough gentlemen, they said, 'We leave it to you.' But finally, my style was to listen to all my younger colleagues and then say what I wanted. So I told them, 'Look, we have run this marathon for the last eight full years. We have learned to make sacrifices. Our families have made huge sacrifice. They have made our lives very comfortable within whatever little we have, and our aspirations continue to be strong. Yes, it does look like we are passing through a dark tunnel, but I do believe that we will see light at the end of the day pretty soon.' And they all agreed. They were all very kind. My colleagues have been extraordinary people, very kind people, very decent human beings with high aspirations; they agreed. But you know, as luck would have it for us, 1991 under the leadership of Shri P.V. Narasimha Rao, Dr. Manmohan Singh, aided by Shri Montek Singh Ahluwalia and P. Chidambaram, ushered in the liberalization. And that's when licensing was abolished, current account convertibility was introduced, the role of government in determining the IPO price was removed, the control of capital issues was abolished. That gentleman seated in Delhi had no idea of the stock exchange. So a lot of good things happened, and then we started growing.
So what was the bleak period like? What was that dark tunnel like? What was the most difficult moment? There are anecdotes we've heard about how during one client engagement you were so tired you had to sleep in a store room. And so we would like our viewers to know that behind every legend there is always a backstory. And I'm sure we would like to learn from the difficulties that Mr. Narayana Murthy has faced pre-1991. Can you tell us in as much personal detail as possible, sir, because we'll relate to it. The dark period, what was it like? What was the issue? What was the moment of despair? And that's when someone was trying to buy you and you still held on. So we want to know the difficult period at that times.
Well, there were several incidents that could have sapped our energy, our enthusiasm. But what kept us going was our passion and our dream. Because when I returned from France, my desire was to conduct an experiment in entrepreneurship and see if that could succeed in India. Because I had studied all the isms — I had studied socialism, communism, libertarianism, and capitalism — and had come to the conclusion that capitalism, which offers free market competition and entrepreneurship, was the only solution for countries like India to create more and more jobs and solve the problem of poverty. Coming to the incidents, you know, we used to stay in the most dangerous part of New York City. I don't want to say that because I don't want... In Republic we speak very freely.
No, but no, you have that authority.
The world burdens you easily, it doesn't pardon me. So I have to be careful. Anyway, so we used to stay in extremely inexpensive hotels where it was very dangerous, and our dinner used to be at McDonald's, just French fries. I remember one night when my flight from India got delayed. It reached at about 11:30 PM. Those days we would take buses from JFK to Manhattan. There was no bus. So I slept in the airport. I washed my hands and my face in the morning right in the airport, sprinkled some water, and I went to make a presentation to the client. I think not just me, my colleagues too have made such sacrifices, because it all came from their passion to succeed in their objective. But none of those things seemed to make an impact on our enthusiasm, on our confidence, on our hope. Because just like when I was a child, where there were 11 mouths and we would get at best one new pair of shirt and shorts maybe sometimes once in two years, but we were very happy. We spent a lot of time with each other. New friends would come home. Whatever little we had we would share. So I somehow, I am somewhat biased to say that happiness does not depend as much on material comfort as mental comfort. That is the milieu I came from. So for example, a few of my younger colleagues' wives were very rightly articulating, 'It's 8 years, still nobody has got even a scooter, forget about a car. What is it that we are trying to do?' But the husbands explained to them why it is so, how the future will be, why we should not hesitate to continue this journey, etc. So that desire, that determination, that passion I think is what kept us going. So me not having come from a poor background, lack of material comfort has not impacted me as much as most people think.
Can I ask a question on behalf of Gen Z? I'm not Gen Z, but I'll ask a question on their behalf.
I'm a millennial. I'll ask a Gen Z question.
You never thought about work-life balance at that time. So because...
No, I have to ask the question. The moment I entered... What about your work-life balance while you were having French fries, traveling on the bus, sleeping in dangerous places, making sacrifices for 15 years? All of you listen, making sacrifices for 15 years. Nowadays, sir, after one week of joining Republic, some people tell us, 'What is our work-life balance?' So...
No, I think that's a very valuable...
