What did you use to bother as a child?
I was bullied all my life as a child.
He is small, black, and stutters. My friends' parents used to tell them, 'Don't be friends with him.'
What was the biggest problem when people used to say such things?
Mostly, it used to pinch me that whenever I did something, when I used to speak, people would not listen. But now, even if I stammer, people will listen to me.
Deepinder Goyal, a success of quick commerce in India, he revolutionized the way we shop. So, have you ever doubted that this would not happen? Will you be able to? We didn't even have a vision of what we wanted to make. We were just doing things because we wanted to do things.
So how did you talk to investors? We never give predictions to investors. Even today, the organization works in such a way that we don't have quarterly goals, annual goals, nothing. We trust people to do the best job that they can, and they do.
The cost of working alongside you is very, very high. Do you think so, sir?
Yes. Why? You have to be obsessive about building something. I don't want them to think this is a job. They have to think of this as life.
What kind of signs do you see in people that make you think they are no longer like the owner, that they are thinking like a job?
You know that this is a big flaw in the system. It will take two hours to fix it, and it's Friday at 6:00 PM, and you say, 'I'll do it on Monday.' I would not go home on Friday at 6:00 PM. I'd finish that job. Startups don't get built on a 9-to-5 attitude.
You bought Blinkit. Everyone said you were crazy. Yes. What was going on in your mind?
That I had never personally experienced a service which was as addictive as Blinkit.
Blinkit happened to be a company of someone who was your friend since he was 15 years old. People say that you bailed him out, that you saved your friend, just gave him the money.
Look, we were objective in what we were doing. Right after we acquired Blinkit, I asked him to leave.
You're not going to be able to cut it.
Tell me about Swiggy. At one point, they were very ahead of you guys. What do you think they were doing well that you guys weren't? Were you able to do it?
How did you know that customer love was very strong?
When your own friends are talking, 'Dude, I'm not ordering from Zomato anymore, I'll order from Swiggy,' then you know that you have a problem at your hand.
Swiggy recently had one condition on Shark Tank. In that, they fired you as a Shark Tank judge. I heard from the Shark Tank team that Swiggy sponsored us and they told us that we can't have you.
You think about Zepto, another competitor? Doesn't matter. We don't think about all this. Just do your work.
What money are you making today? When somebody's potential is 100 and they are playing at 10 and they are chill about it, why is that? It just scares me. The world owes you nothing. People say that you feel zero problem in firing randomly, that you treat people as disposable. As long as there is work, okay, the day it's a little bad, go.
I think that's what people on issues by tech say these things.
And how many do you hire every month? One and a half to two lakh. We are the only company which has created so many jobs. How much do you pay on average? 7.5 lakh for gig workers. If I work six days, 8 to 10 hours a day, the daily income is more than Rs 25,000.
See, recently an MP said that close it, delivery requires 10 minutes because riders are dying with that extreme pressure. They are running away, breaking the red light, not following the rules. Don't you think it's true?
I don't think so. First of all, our delivery partners, our Blinkit and Zomato, neither any rider nor anyone has ever died on the timeline.
But the timer shows me that in 6 minutes it will take 7 minutes. Only you can see it.
Achha, scene of a delivery rider's death. Why and what happened?
These are road accidents. They are just mishaps, basically.
What happens if someone dies? What is the policy of the company?
There is insurance, and then we also extend job offers to the family.
What fraud do customers commit? You kept saying there was hair in my food, give my money back. Now days, AI has even made it easier to convert your fully okay cake into a smashed, smudged cake as well.
You started Zomato with Pankaj together, and then eventually Pankaj quit. Why did he quit? Five co-founders left in 4 years. Even after IPO, why do you think in building Zomato, you have heard people say that you have become an underperformer now. In April 2025, you will have fired 500 to 600 employees. It described inhumane treatment.
You are not getting distracted. You are also entering into aerospace research and continuation. You are doing it and running the temple also.
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For the 0.1% of people who don't even know who you are, who are you?
Interesting question. For the 0.1% of people who don't know who I am, I think I'm a child-like, curious person who just wants to do things. That's it, nothing else.
Define you. That I am the founder of Zomato, I am a billionaire, I have this, I did rags to riches. I don't know the identities that you give to yourself.
I don't have any of those things. I never define myself like that in my head. People do, and whenever they try to do it to me, you have to stop yourself from doing this. Define yourself.
Because then you lock yourself into just that. Then you can't become anything more than that.
But isn't it that you have to work hard for that only? I have worked hard, that's something that you should own, that this is what I made with hard work. Isn't that why you worked so hard for this identity?
This has been achieved through hard work, but I did not make that identity for it. I didn't do this for fame or money. I was just curious. Meaning, one step after the other, this happens.
Never in your life have you had to think, 'I need to make a lot of money'?
You had a poster on your wall when you were a child. I felt like I was going to lead this. I heard my dad say this a couple of months ago: 'I was born to lead, I was never born to be ruled.' Something like that. So this poster was put up, right? Then since then, there will be aspiration, there will be ambition that I will lead, I will become great.
It could also be that I used to be bullied all my life as a child. So it could also be my revolt towards that. I don't know. I don't remember why that poster was there.
What were you bullied for?
So right now you can see I am like 6 feet tall. But I basically gained about a foot and a half when I was 12 years old. So I used to be a very short, dark, stammering kid. So it means he is small, black, and stutters. And I used to be bad at my studies as well. So all of those things combined was like nobody liked me. My friends' parents used to tell them, 'Don't be friends with him.'
Because intelligent, good marks will come, so the child should have friends like that. So I think all of that was good. I mean, that poster is a bit stupid too, because I got 42% in 10+1 marks and something like that. So that poster just doesn't make sense. It does make sense because only those who have marks bring it.
But what used to bother you the most? What was the problem? When people said things like this, they used to say, 'What is this, you are black, you are so small.' What pinched more in that life?
Mostly, it used to pinch me that whenever I did something, when I spoke, people did not listen. So mid-sentence, people used to start talking about something else and stop listening and look away. It's like whatever he says is of no use, and he won't be able to say whatever he wants to say. Those things combined. I think that was the biggest hurt probably.
And sometimes it happened at home that even mom and dad might have said something which disappointed you.
Of course. It was all part of the package.
So the family members also started talking about it. They used to point this out.
They did use to point it out. They were actually supportive in terms of the stammer, that this is in your head, this will be solved easily, speak comfortably. Whenever I used to sing, I could sing, so I didn't use to stammer at that time. So my home was actually supportive.
But you know, even if your home is supportive, you don't think of that as valid, right? The world is telling the truth. It is your job to love it. It is your job to say this, then it means you are lying. I think that might also have been going on.
Does it still bother you, the stammer?
It makes me nervous. So for example, this also means it is not easy and comfortable for me to do this. That's why I do less of this. But now I'm like, okay, I will get stuck. Finally, the word will definitely come out.
But you still look at me like this. Is it insecurity or a challenge that you see stammering as?
Not really, not anymore. I'm very at peace with it. It will be okay, it will get stuck. I think that also comes with that. Even if I stammer, people will now listen to me. Right? So I have earned a little bit of that, so okay, now I don't care. Otherwise, I used to care that I would get judged, people would stop listening to me, attention would be tuned out, it would make me nervous and bother me. Now I'm like, a five-second pause doesn't matter.
I think it gradually changed over the last five years, and it's still not fully finished. It means it has happened, but there is a little inside that will remain and never be complete.
But you said that you don't do interviews, don't talk much publicly. How do you lead a company then? If the stammering in the mind is the reason you don't do interviews, in a company, speaking at a board meeting, inspiring people at large town halls, pitching to investors, you have to do it. So then this is not a bother.
I ask a question. Guess when was the last town hall held where I was present?
I don't know. One month ago? Three? One quarter ago?
So you don't do it? No, I think it's been seven years since I did a town hall.
So you have not addressed everybody at once in seven years?
No. I think the seven-years-ago town hall was also something that I was forced to do. It was a bad time, I had to really put things back into shape. But I just do Slack town halls. So chat messages, I do town halls like that. People reply to them, threads are made, and then next message, next message. I do town halls on text. The reason is the stammering. Yes, I just can't do this. Too much effort. Stage, public presence, they're just not my thing.
Interesting. And investor pitches? Investor pitches are one-on-one, it's cool.
Was there any point where, during an investor pitch, because of your stammering, you felt nervous and maybe that deal was lost, or somebody pointed it out?
Not really. Maybe people chose not to invest in Zomato because of that, maybe I don't know, because they would never tell you to your face. But I didn't feel that.
But have you ever felt that you are in a room and you want somebody, maybe you want a client, and you want investments, and at that time you sensed that he doubted my ability, that I can inspire such a big team, that I will be able to lead?
No, it's not like that. Never in my mind.
Are there words that are still very difficult, on which you stutter?
It's very random. I would stutter on certain syllables like 'd' or 'b', something like that. There is no such list. I can't say 100%. It's not like that. And on a good day, I can talk about anything. So it's not a chronic, structural issue. It is a mental issue.
Have you tried to fix it?
I'm done fixing it. If I try to fix it, it also means that I have to tell myself that I am still bothered by it. So I have just stopped telling myself that I'm bothered by it. So I just moved on.
But it never went like this. Too many founders and public figures, celebrities, they go to doctors, do stuttering exercises to improve themselves. Was all of that a part of your life that you never needed?
Can I go? And I think that also made me learn how to write really, really well. So I think what I lack in terms of being able to talk, I can more or less cover up in terms of how I write.
You said that it has helped you become a better writer.
But then in the middle of it, you said something that now that I have achieved it, perhaps now people will listen, it makes no difference whether I stammer or not. Do you think that there is something that shaped your life, that only if I achieve will people praise me, only then will they listen to me, so I have to achieve regardless?
I think so. That was the primary factor why I wanted to do a startup, why I wanted to do a successful startup. And that was not that I want to make the world hear my story. It wasn't about that. It was about my immediate social circle, the people who I wanted to call friends, they would value what I said.
So what happened was way bigger than what I wanted. What you wanted initially started like this. It just so happened that I was not respected. If you respect me, then I have to achieve it. These handsets make me think so because at that time I did not know with clarity why I was doing this. Maybe because in a class, sometimes you cheat with the teacher and you come third, and you did some whatever you achieved, and that very day, I became your friend and was praised at home. So you got some validation, not praise, from achievement, and people listen to you.
Yes, but now I am saying that in hindsight, this is how it happened. This was logical. At that time, life was just happening. I didn't consciously think I had to do this, why I have to do this. I think your generation knows a lot more about yourself. At our age, we knew nothing about ourselves. When we were 20, 30, nothing, zero self-awareness. Even we don't know our life. We are just better at pretending. We're just trying to make sense of our lives, but at least you know words like anxiety, but we didn't even have those words back then.
You know, there is research that really public big public figures and celebrities and founders who stammer, for them, they have social anxiety that people will think about me and judge me. Do you think it's true in your case?
No. I never think about what people will think about me. I mean, okay, I'll think about it. So it has nothing to do with this.
So stammer has nothing to do with anxiety?
No. It's just been there forever. I have just consciously avoided being in situations where the nervousness of that stammer would make me fall sick. For example, I have sometimes said yes to conferences, feeling brave, and then two days before, I used to fall sick. This was my body revolting against that thing that I had to do two days from now. So now I just stop saying yes to anything I don't want to do.
When you were a kid, a non-achiever, it doesn't matter, no one is listening, you are small and you are getting bullied every day by your family members too. What was going on in your head? What did you think at that time?
What was going on? I am useless. I will show you how to break it. But I don't think I have ever thought about the long term. I have always been focused on the next day and the next week, which also comes down to building companies. So if you ask me about Zomato, I don't know what the next 10-year vision is. We are very much focused on these are the problems we need to solve, let's just solve them. It's been like this since childhood. I have seen my childhood one week ahead, I haven't seen it beyond that.
And do you feel inferior right now?
In any sense, have you ever got an inferiority complex that maybe I am not good enough, maybe someone better than me? Imposter syndrome continues.
What happens? Explain imposter syndrome for you. What is it?
Imposter syndrome is like that you got here, were you actually good enough to get here? Because you know whatever you do, success happens to anyone, so there is a huge element of luck in it. You can't dissociate luck from anybody's success. People don't like to say that, but that is true for everybody. So when you consciously think, 'I got lucky in so many places,' and then you get all the credit for building this, sometimes it feels like a little disapproval, like this is not matching.
Tell me one place where you think in hindsight that you have got an absolutely great feeling, an incident.
I also think that my introverted nature and this all comes with me stammering, especially all this, the combination, I think I got extremely lucky with that.
Why do you think it's your feeling? Why is it a feeling that this is very lucky, that I was an introvert, I was bullied? What kind of feeling is this? The pros end of everything, what happens?
I think the kind of connections and relationships that I have had with people run very deep. So Zomato is a system built on trust. People trust me, I trust them. The kind of rapport we share is not something that you see in companies. That comes from me being just me. That introverted nature, I open up very easily. Being vulnerable doesn't take that much effort for me. That builds bonds, and those bonds last forever. I think I've been very lucky with that around me.
Do you think your father, in the beginning when you started Zomato, they started trusting you? He must have trusted that he would do it. They will definitely have doubts about something or not.
When I quit my job, he actually sent me 2 lakh, which was almost all our savings, to let me run this business. None of us knew about startups at that time, what are valuations, no idea. He was just trying to do something good. 'Let's try it, son. If I don't back him, who else would I back?' I think he had a mix of confidence and fear.
But has he ever said that you are not ambitious, don't fly so high? Because he was a teacher. A teacher would think that my son went to a good IIT, got a job at a very good place, and left it to scan menu cards?
I don't think I told them what I was doing and why I was doing it. So they were like, 'He is doing something good.' My mom and dad have probably had restaurant food 20 times in their life. So they didn't even know this space. They don't understand this, so they were like, 'Okay, he is doing something, must be fine.'
And how was your relationship when you were a kid with them, with mom and dad?
I actually got out of the house when I was 15 years old. So 15 years old, 10+1, 10+2, hostel, hostel, hostel. So I've been disconnected since forever. We are a family, we are connected, we're close, but we're not like we used to be. We stayed together, but apart.
You never had the time to think about it?
I actually don't think about things like that. I'm very much focused on the work. Mom and dad live together now. I keep visiting them.
And you have never thought that maybe it would have been better if I had stayed together?
Me and my dad can't stay together. Why? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I am stubborn, and so is he. Put us in the same room, if we have a difference of opinion about something, it just blows up.
Tell me an incident where a fight took place.
It's very simple things. This was a couple of years ago. 'Why have you taken this car? You spent a lot of money, you are wasting it.' I felt like I was having a bad day. He had a bad day. I lost 3 crores, you have taken the car, you have gone mad, get out, don't show my face from here.' I got furious first, then I hugged him. 'It's cool, it doesn't matter. Chill, the car will sell for the same money whenever.'
That's you making out, shaded it's not sugarcane, it will sell for the same price? We have to make up, shut up also.
So even today, he has these problems. But now the son has grown so much, if he is earning money, a difference of two to three crores will take a little. I think it's about the mindset. I also still have that mindset. I don't throw away money.
What is one thing where you throw money?
I think the only place where I really feel that I wasted money is on cars. Why? I don't drive them. It's just like a childhood dream of buying toys. Having a bad day, emotional ups and downs, feeling a vacuum, then I buy them. Luckily, cars also sell for almost the same price, sometimes more because rare.
Has it ever happened that you forgot how it happened? Tell me a day where you were feeling something and what were you feeling because of it, and you bought a car?
You don't remember it? I wouldn't have that memory.
You know, people say that those who had such a thing in their childhood, they are praised for something, achievement-based love is a thing, and the rest of the time they don't get love. Love is received only on achievement. And growing up very rich, very successful, and being very empty. Nothing beats that. They just keep running towards the next chase. Are you like that?
You can say I used to be like that. But now I have enough acceptance and love in life. I have faces of it. So sometimes it comes, sometimes it goes. But right now, I am happy. Right now, there is nothing that is interesting.
Talk to me about that day when you cheated on a teacher. Did you feel that cheating means I am third, so cheating is okay in life?
I don't think I got to that point. So it was very funny. I fully remember the visual. Which examination hall I was in, I was sitting on the third seat from the left, on the right. I vividly remember it. And I have no idea why that teacher helped me out. I have zero clue. It was out of the blue. That guy helped me, and he left after a couple of months. He was on transfer. My dad always said, 'No government job, keep fighting against corruption.' So I have grown up with values, very, very rigid. So I never turned to a point where cheating is okay. But for a moment, out of desperation, I tried to cheat. The next time, I was self-conscious because I didn't cheat the first time either. Someone got it done. So this is the second time I tried to cheat. I could not find a way to find a question paper or anything. Then somehow, last minute, I could get to a decent place, and then it's like, 'Okay, this is the kind of effort it takes to score well.' It wasn't my learning. Even back then, was that okay? It takes less effort to score well? I think that would be stupid too. It's not about less effort or more effort. It is about the right kind of effort. Go to the fundamentals and understand it, then you will build everything up later. So I think that was what I sort of softly learned. The tuning was that if you make an effort, it will work. Don't cheat. Somehow manage by doing the right kind of effort, not just effort for the sake of effort. Search for the crux, understand it well, and then you can build whatever you want on top of that.
And then I started studying. Now this was the turning point from where the effort started beating. Started reading a little. Then you went to Chandigarh for IIT tuition.
And there you said that you felt very dumb, out of place, because all the smart people were around.
Yes, all the best toppers from small cities of Punjab were there. So you were placed lowest, right? D section.
Yes, LB and me, both of us were last too.
Yes, we met at NTSC, the National Talent Search's coaching camp used to be held in Punjab. Even there, we were the last two people in a batch of 96. We were rank 95 and rank 96. So these two last benchers of the smart class. So you guys reached there and then you said you felt out of place. Why?
I think low confidence again. 'I can't do it. People were grasping things, people were scoring higher than me.' I just felt like I'm in the wrong place. Lots of times, I used to think, 'Let's go back to the vegetable shop and chill. This is very hard. Why do you have to work so hard? Life is going to be good there.'
But you felt you had to use a specific word: uninvited guest. You felt like an uninvited guest here. Why this feeling?
Because nobody paid attention. It was like some different language being spoken. Even in classrooms, tensions were just like always catching up to understand what's going on, not coming, and then always scoring low. Sometimes I used to compare myself with a child. I was walking around, Peepal means I was the cow. My roommate was in the top 10% percentile, and I used to be the lowest. And what comparisons did we make? We used to go to the same stations, the same tests, so we used to know the scores. There were no comparison scores, but we used to know each other's scores. The comparison was in my own head. Maybe it was not in their heads. But in my head, I was like, 'Yaar, kitna duffer hoon main.'
Did you ever call your parents from Chandigarh and say, 'I am very dull, I'm coming back,' or cry in frustration?
I actually didn't want to do the JEE exam. Why? I was like, 'This cannot happen to me. Nothing comes to my mind. I will give it next year. Let them all go. I will take my time. I can't think of anything, so I don't want to be embarrassed.' So I told my dad, and he was disappointed that I was saying such things. But he said, 'Okay, cool, if that's what you are going to do.'
And what kept you going then? Why did you do it?
Papa was like, 'Fee di hai, saal ek, go to the bar exam and practice.' So I said, 'Okay, let's do it.' Practice and the exam was, I think, three months away at that time. My roommate had all this stack of books which I was scared to touch, thinking it would open and there will be more insecurity. One fine random day, I opened a physics book. He was not there. He had gone to his hometown. I turned the first page and, without thinking of having to solve it, not trying to achieve something, I was like, 'I think this is how it will work.' I compared, nice, good, and it just went on. For a month and a half, I was just solving his physics books. Then I went to that exam thinking I will take it next time. But physics was like I had a grasp on it. I think I scored quite a lot there, and you don't need to score much for JEE to get in. I wouldn't know, I've only heard it's the toughest thing. I think so too, but at least that time, I scored enough in physics, probably 100 out of 100. Chemistry must have passed the cutoff, maths must have passed the cutoff, and that landed me in Delhi. So this is luck. I have very strong luck. This is also luck. Probably not the introvert thing, this is like crazy luck.
And how did your friendships and relationships turn out in these years? Our friendship has had its ups and downs. We were close to each other, then we drifted apart, close again, drifted apart. I think we have had multiple phases of that.
Give me one incident where it was very tight, and then one incident where there was a lot of distance.
In 10+1 and 10+2, we were very tight. First year of college also, we were very tight. Then IIT, and then I think the second, third, fourth year, we were on different things. I was on different things. Divergence. We still connected, but not super close, not that far away. Then I think he left to the US to work, completely lost touch. Three or four years later, I got him to Zomato. We stayed together for two or three years. Then he started Grofers, and we again lost touch. Then COVID happened, and we came back again.
You said just now that you had borrowed money from LB for personal use. What was that?
I ran out of cash during COVID. Personal cash, not the company. So personally, you had nothing?
What did you tell him? How was the conversation?
'Vai, LB, can you please send me some money?' He was like, 'How much?' I said, 'This much.' He's like, 'Cool.' Did you feel bad? No. We have always been through that, LB and me, and not just LB and me, I think our friend circle is well. Back to college days, we have always operated out of shared wealth of money. It's never been 'tera, tera, tere paas kitna, mera kitna.' We don't keep an account. Even today. How many friends? Right now, it would be like four of us. We just don't keep accounts. Two of them are in Dubai, bankers. I mean, we don't need to do that anymore, but we wouldn't keep counting. If somebody asks, 'Cool, done.' Never ask questions, never ask for the money back.
And what makes you so sure about this friendship?
It's just that we've supported each other through so many ups and downs. Nobody's ever asked it back, and nobody ever abused the trust that you have with each other. So, cool.
Did you give the money back?
Must have. I don't remember. But you said that you have a problem with debt.
There is a problem with debt. In borrowing, there is a problem. It doesn't happen with these four. This is like family money. Why take money from your brother? Will there be a problem? And otherwise, why is money a problem from debt? What's that trauma?
I mean, if I owe something to somebody and I am not able to do it, what will that entity and that person do to me? I don't know. I don't want to think of these things. I don't want to get into a situation where a collection agent is knocking at my door saying, 'Bro, listen.' I know it's unreasonable, irrational, but I just can't do that.
So at some point, Zomato was almost about to shut down, and at that time, you had to return back. You borrowed equity, not debt. Why?
Just from this region, that's just my personal way of doing things.
So you never raised debt, right? Always raised equity. In some businesses, it genuinely makes sense to raise debt.
We are not in those businesses yet. And maybe I will have to be okay when those businesses happen to us, raising debt. But I would choose not to if it makes sense not to have it.
Is it family tuning? Did you speak like this at home?
Family tuning as well, but I don't know. It is tuning something in my head. I always told my parents and everyone at home that I should not take money on loan. I don't take loans for anything. The first time I remember, there was so much fighting over a car loan. I was like, 'I have the money, I can park it and take a loan separately,' and it was a three-month fight in my house. That's why my tuning comes in that I have a big problem with debt and credit. But now I have gotten better with it, but with your family and just your family, I think debt, you know, when you take debt, you're cashing in on the future. 'Future mein paisa kamaunga,' and you are cashing it today. What if you don't make the money in the future? What happens? I don't want to answer that question for myself. So I am very much like, the amount of money I have in the bank, that's about it. Live within that.
You're okay to shut down your business? Personal life, understand. For business, there is no money. The only way is that equity is not being raised, the business will close down. You are ready to take a loan to continue your business?
You are not like me. I will close my business, but I will not take a loan. I think if your equity is not being raised right now and your debt is being raised, that debt will be worse for the business than the equity at a lower price. So I would rather lower the price for equity and get equity than take debt. If equity is not being raised at that time, taking debt from a weak position is even worse, I think.
Walk me through what goes on in your head when it is a near-death situation. Let's pick specific COVID times when maybe you had to make 5 million calls at night to raise the dollar. Give a few to me also.
No, we're just like, so look, we have cost. And suddenly, the food delivery business got just wiped out, shut down, blacked out. So we still have that cost. First, we have how many, four or five months' worth of money in the bank, and suddenly we are down to only 45 days of money left. It was that bad because revenue was almost completely wiped out. Cost is cost. So that was scary. I had never come that close. I've always been at four months or five months, that is okay, I can fight. One and a half months is scary. One and a half months is like if you make one wrong call, you are not able to meet payroll. I've never been in a situation like this ever where I have not made payroll. I always paid salaries on time. It scares me too not to pay salary on time. So I was like, 'I need a couple of million to meet the next payroll problem.'
So what did you do? To whom? What did you do?
Everyone, investors, as much as they could, capital. How was the conversation? 'This is the situation, reality is very, very factual. This is the reality. Would appreciate it if you can buy one or two million dollars, whatever.' I was like, 'I will get one from this person, one from that person.' Same thing.
And how much money was raised at that time?
Zero. No one gave. Nobody had the time, and everybody was struggling with their own issues. It felt like the end of the world for everyone. So they were like, 'Dude, I will give you 1 million rupees, I don't have time. Please figure this out.'
How much burn was there at that time?
If you don't remember, it would be 45 million per month. And then no one would pay for 45 days. How did you come back from that?
So what we did was we asked for salary cuts. We didn't ask everyone to get 20% or 30%. We had a goal in mind that we had to reduce the salary bill by 30%. But we really asked for salary cuts that were your choice. As much as you can afford, take a salary cut. And in return, you get 2x or 3x ESOPs, I don't remember the numbers, but a significant number of ESOPs compared to the cash that you let go. By the way, we did tell people that we will give you ESOPs. So we asked for salary cuts. We met the target and more. Some people said 100% salary cut, some said 50%, some said they can't do it because they have to support families. And we were like, 'This makes sense.' If people can afford it, they have done it. If somebody couldn't, they didn't. So a flat model is better than a 30% salary cut. Over 80% of people took a cut out of an organization of about 4000 people. And they got ESOPs. Then the day we got listed, if they let go of ₹100 of cash, they made 30x in that IPO for that equity that they got. Equity was given to them as a thank you. 'You have company in the bad times, so now the company's good time is here, so we help you.' We gave them ESOPs like two days after. Immediately. Yes, I gave it immediately, but it was not in exchange.
Best thing. Then did you ever think at any point that the company will close down, that this is over?
It can happen anytime, it can happen even now. But there was a time when my conviction went to zero? No. Not really. Always felt like we have yet one more day.
Have you ever doubted that this wouldn't work? What can't be made? Zomato. Did we ever even have a vision of what we have to make? We know this week's work. It should be so, what to do? But never thought, 'Maybe it won't be made or it's over.' No one ever thought how much money to make. LB is the same way. I am also like this. We never thought about the amount of money we want to make. We are doing things because we want to do things.
So how did you talk to investors? Investors must be saying, 'Give me a prediction, tell me something.'
We never give predictions to investors. No financial model, nothing. We told people, 'This is how it is going until now, and this is what we have. We don't know the future.' And that's all. Even today, the organization works in such a way. We don't have quarterly goals, annual goals, nothing. So we trust people to do the best job that they can, and they do.
I have questions now. First is, whenever you talk to an investor, you have a picture or a vision you must be painting. What was that vision?
That vision is generally a market size vision. 'Look, this market is going to be huge, and we are playing for that. Whether we get there or not, it's going to be an outcome of the 10 steps we take over the next few years. We could get them wrong. So we're just like, 'This market is big, and we have a fair shot at playing and execution. Look at the record so far, it's fine. So there is no reason to believe that spoilers lie ahead. That's what you should bet on.'
And second is, because now you are a publicly traded company, so quarterly goals must be happening. You have to present something.
Zero. Do you show up at AGMs? There are no goals in the AGM. There is a mindset in the AGM also. Till now, this is it. There is no talk of the future. I don't even talk to CEOs about the next quarter, how many goals, what is the plan. It's always like, 'Do better, do more, do better, do more.' That's what it is.
And where did this thinking come from? Because this is a very different sort of thinking, if I must say.
I believe that if I give someone a goal, they are going to fall 20% off it. First of all, how do I know that this goal is the right goal? I don't know. Nobody knows. So first of all, I don't want to negotiate with people to get this goal right. So I was like, 'If you are really a good person, a leader who cares, you will do your best.' And if I give you a goal, you will actually calibrate your effort towards that goal, and that may not be the best effort. Your best effort could be higher or lower than the goal. But all I want is your best effort.
But how do you judge that this person is giving their best effort? How do you even judge whether this person will be the best for my company, because you have no goal in mind?
It shows up when you are tuned in. When you know how people are responding to a customer care complaint, how people are responding to crisis, how people are responding to competition, whatever they are doing, how much they actually innovate, how many risks they take, you get a sense of whether they are doing their best work or not. It's a very subjective, soft sense.
So tell me an instant, when you are interviewing someone for some position or looking at a CV, and you see two or three red flags, immediately you know that you don't have to hire them.
When people sell themselves too much, I just completely switch off. Because we know that nobody is awesome. Even in our team, no one is perfect. So when people oversell themselves, that's when we switch off. This person will become messy, political here. If the husband is praising her a lot, then we will not do it for others. That basically means that you are saying, 'I did all the work, my team wasn't a part of it.' Nothing happens with one single person. The team pulls off whatever needs to be done.
And what's something that you like in an interview which you feel that this is right?
Put people in a tough spot. I mean, you know how to judge them. You do podcasts. You put people in tough spots, you ask hard questions, and you see how they actually respond to those questions.
Give me an example of that, a hard question in an interview.
I just talk to people and then I get to know more about them. And the hard question is about them, right? So it's not from a laundry list of topics. It's very personal.
Something that they must have shared immediately. Let's say if I was in front of you, you had to ask me a personal hard question. What would you ask?
Do you get tired doing all of this?
There are days when I do. Like absolutely. And what really goes on in your head when you get tired?
That... why do you have to like this? Why should I do this? But it is very temporary. I feel this... how often does it come now? This is a temporary feeling, once a week, once a month. After every bad podcast. After every bad podcast, it comes. It does not come apart. Many times it also comes when the team is in a lot of doubt. When I see it from here, it seems as if I am doing so much, I'm working so hard, I'm doing everything, and I am doing my best, and I'm tired of this. I can't see that I am tired, friend. And like, fuck it, why do this at all? I live my life normally. I accept it. What can I do by being so ambitious? I will, and that is what I get. But it's a feeling that goes away once I sleep and then get up. Sometimes it goes away. It has never happened in an hour. It has stayed for 10 days max, never for even a day.
So on these lines, I can go deeper and deeper, right? I'll just peel the onion until it hurts, right? So that's why... what were you thinking? Why do you think that you... what are the inhibitions or feelings of aspiration because of which you want to quit?
There is some emotional insecurity which makes you feel bad when the bad podcast hits and the team says, 'Why is he doing what he is doing?' You don't want to be a leader. Leaders don't have time to do all this. You can't be tired if you figure out your energy. Are you a leader or are you part of the team? You are part of the team, of course, but you have to lead. You can't be tired. And so I would then dig further.
Interesting, right? Taken to the zone. But yes, the answer to me in that situation is that I am human, and this is what I get from the team. I don't show it in front of me. Rarely, maybe three or four top team members might have seen it too. And I also show them the majority. I will not do it in front of 70 people.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, in front of them, I will put up like I can't be the low version of me.
Or even during your best days, you have to walk into your office and smile, right? Best days, worst days, all of this. So it's a question for you as well now. Leadership style is contradictory. There is one type of mindset you think I have. The same I think you're having. A bad day, everything is going well, whatever is going on, you have to have an athlete mindset and you have to show up and you have to go hit a century. You can't show in front of the team that you are sad. Yes, because if you are sad, then the rest of the people will become more demotivated, right? You have to just buckle up and show that today we are going to smash it, regardless of what is going on. And then there is one type of leadership that Jai Jain Alpha speaks about: vulnerable leadership. That you have to show that yes, friend, today is my bad day, I'm stressed today, I am feeling sad today. It's human to show that. 'I am sorry, this went wrong.' All of that, right? So which leadership do you think is good? Do you ever think about it?
Why do they have to be different boxes? I think they can be the same box.
But then you say that we cannot show weakness and more in every... no, sadness can show. You have to go and steel up. No.
I would... the way I do things and would do things is like... listening to guys running... I am giving an example from when we ran out of money. Let's say whenever we used to run out of money, I put 50, 100 top people in the room and say, 'Listen, we're running out of money. Life is gonna be bad. OK, I'm stressed. Cool, but that doesn't mean we can't make it. Breathe in, breathe out, let's go.' So you address the feeling, but then you give the team that confidence that I'm not going to let this situation get the better of me. And I will make sure, in my best capacity, this is not a permanent situation. We will win.
You manifest your wins beyond point. So, you started Zomato with Pankaj together, and then eventually Pankaj quit in, I think, 2018. What happened? Why did he quit?
I think our leadership styles were very, very different. So he was more rational, I would say. I am more emotional. Or I was more adventurous. Punjabi mindset. So I was like, 'Let's try this too. Yes, they also do it.' And he was more rational. And in hindsight, I also became rational. So during those days, our leadership style just diverged.
When did you first realize that there is a change between us? These changes are coming because we were together for 10 years, right?
Man, I don't think any of us were those people who realize these things until the realization just hit hard, right? So there were no faces and there were no conversations for either him or me. Even myself, there was no talk either.
No. And then you just walked away. It's just like, 'This is not going to make sense.' And an introspective moment for me as well, and I said, 'Yes, this is not going to make sense.'
But then who decided that you wouldn't go? They will go.
It was just... I had more equity. Like, I started Zomato and ended up buying him out six months later.
So you kept the baby. But what was the conversation? The last between you and him?
Don't remember. It was very pleasant.
How do you bring that up with a co-founder? You co-founded it 10 years ago. What are you saying, 'You are not my brother? You will be able to go?'
I think we were just chatting over a drink, and he just mentioned it to me. He said, 'Yes, that's what I'm feeling.' And I think over the next half an hour of trying to fight that, but also knowing that yes, this is true, acknowledging beyond a point, 'Yes, cool, this makes sense.' And it was reflection more for me, because I knew this was on me, it's not on him. And I realized over the next few years that it was really more on me than on him.
What was on you? I mean, behaving differently, working differently.
So do you guys still talk? Are you on good terms?
I mean, decent terms. So the same as me and Albinder. So we go on different paths. We diverge because people who run startups generally don't have time to connect with anybody else than work. Right? So that's a good part, I think.
But then see you and Albinder, your relationship would be very different because we were friends together. Same with Pankaj. But Pankaj must have seen that he lost in some way, that he lost a big pie and maybe he lost an opportunity too to truly become something really... He had his equities and he also started a new startup, so he is doing his own thing. So there is also an identity attached to it, friend. I also have to do Zomato's part now. I like the way you take the limelight today. Maybe I'm sure he must be thinking about it. I don't know, you should ask him those questions.
No, but no, he never said anything, you know? I have not talked about this.
He started a mental wellness startup. Do you think that has something to do with working alongside you?
I hope not. The cost of working alongside you is very, very high. Do you think so?
