Welcome back to the Carton Show. Chris McMonle, Craig Carton, and thrilled to have a dear friend of mine joining us in studio. And I didn't realize till last night reading the New York Post that James Dolan hasn't spoken publicly since he joined me and Evan Roberts three years ago. And now he's back. Happy New Year. Thank you for joining us.
Happy New Year. This is my biannual confession.
Is it that nobody asks you to speak?
Oh yeah, that's it. You know what? I want to speak all the time, but nobody ever asks me.
It's like the pretty girl at the bar. No one ever asks me out, so I don't have any dates. That kind of thing, right?
Or maybe not. Or maybe not. There's a lot to talk to you since you haven't spoken about a lot of Knicks and Rangers issues in the last few years. Let me start with the Knicks. Obviously, the great run last year. Looks like they're on their way to a special season this year. But in the process, you also made a decision, you and Leon Rose, to relieve Tom Thibodeau of his head coaching duties. And Mike comes in has done a really nice job thus far. Can you walk us through what the thinking was at the time you made it? If it was just Leon coming to you saying, 'We need a change,' if you guys collectively thought the team needed a different voice in the locker room, and what was the genesis of moving on from Tom?
Well, look, you know, Leon and I talk about everything, right? Even non-basketball stuff. But, you know, the team is really built on the shoulders of Tom Thibodeau, right? He built that core, right? We went as far as we did last year. And so you really got to take your hat off to Tom and the job that he did. But we did come to the conclusion that we had an idea of how we wanted to organize the team. And actually it goes for both teams. And that meant we needed to evolve beyond the old traditional coaching formulas, etc. And we tried to work that with Tom. It really wasn't his thing.
Let me not put words in your mouth. Do you mean like not using the bench that much, the style of play you're referencing there?
That's some of it, right? But it is much more about style of leadership, right? Collaboration versus sort of lone wolf type of thing.
Thank you for giving me the word. That's better than the one I was thinking of. But because of the way, particularly basketball but also hockey too, the way the sports evolving, how much more complicated it is. We're very big on development in both clubs. Because you can't, it's not like the old days like the old Yankees where they get Reggie Jackson and this guy and put together a team. It's almost impossible to do that in the NBA. You have to homegrow some of your talent and that builds trade currency, etc. But it's a development thing and that's a team of people. There are literally 20 people who are specifically dedicated to developing the players, getting their skill levels up, getting the strategy on the court in. So part of that is develop players that become trade pieces, develop players that become valuable depth guys off your bench. And that's important for development of a franchise. And that really, Tom liked development, but he didn't really...
Well, he's a guy that likes playing the veterans. He likes to bring the guys that buy into his system. And he has throughout his career have a shelf life, right? And he got to an Eastern Conference final. You guys collectively had to have felt that while the run was great and he gets a lot of credit for being a part of the Knicks turnaround, that you couldn't win a title with him. That had to be the thinking, right? Or it'd be unlikely that you would.
I won't say you can't win a title with Tom Thibodeau. I don't necessarily know that's true. It's just that if you want to build a long-term competitive team, you needed a different guy. You need somebody who's much more of a collaborator than Tom was. But still, Tom is still a great coach, right? He should coach again in the NBA. If I had a franchise that I was just starting with, he would be a gold mine to get. And he was like that for us when we first started and he first came in. He brought discipline, he brought strategy. He brought us all that way. But we really felt we needed to make a change to go the rest of the way.
Did you go to Tom and discuss these changes or did you just... and take his...
No, we decided to surprise him with it.
No, I'm saying like did you mention it wasn't this thing? Was there discussions about possibly getting him to change and it felt like it wasn't going to happen, or did you just make the assumption Tom wasn't the kind of coach who could make the changes you were looking for?
We talked to Tom all the time. Right. And you know, look, I don't want to get too deep into the interaction, but I would say that whole last year we were talking to Tom about where we wanted to go, etc. And he's a stubborn guy.
He would tell you that he's stubborn, but he'd also tell you that he's right.
Which is the problem with being stubborn people say.
So, one of the big names that Knicks fans have fantasized about, it's come out that he wants to be a Knick. How close were we to acquiring Giannis? And I'm not saying right now, I know you can't meddle right now as an active player in the league. But before this season started, there were reports that there was the possibility of a trade a year ago. Any truth to that?
No. And I think, look, we love our team right now. They have chemistry, they all like each other. I've never seen a locker room more copacetic. There's a lot of energy in there. And Leon can always overrule me, but I don't see us making a big change because we have to keep building up this group. This group can win a championship. I believe that.
Well, I think they prove that when they beat the Spurs and the Spurs won three straight against the Thunder. Obviously, right now they seem like they're a little stressed, a little pressed. You lose a few games in a row, people start panicking, dealing with some injuries. But the core and the depth of this team is different. I've been a Knicks fan since the 70s. There's not been a lot of Knicks teams that are...
Look how far we got with our group last year. Right. And then take a look at who was playing and who wasn't playing. We had injuries going into it. We're going into the second half of this season. Josh is still out till Monday, I think. And Landry is coming back soon. We got depth. And if we stay healthy, we'll go into the playoffs in much better condition than we went into the playoffs last year.
For sure. Now, one of the things you guys accomplished this year was winning the Emirates Cup in Vegas. I went on the other show earlier in the day because people know I'm a Knicks fan. They're like, 'Banner, banner.' I go, 'I can guarantee you we are not raising a banner.' Not that we're not proud of winning.
Yes. No, we are going to raise a banner.
We're going to raise the NBA championship.
That's the banner we want to raise. I said for all the accomplishments way back in the day, the Knicks had James Dolan and the New York Knicks are not as much as it's great to win. And I think what Mike Brown said afterward, which was important, teams have to learn how to win. That was a playoff game. It was a game seven atmosphere. Spurs are a really good basketball team. That fourth quarter was awesome. And I'm a fan of the cup because you get special games like that in the regular season. But I know the NBA wants teams to raise a banner. The Lakers said no for a while. Eventually they did because LeBron wanted one. Milwaukee said no for a while. Eventually they did. Was there ever a thought we're going to raise an Emirates Cup banner at Madison Square Garden?
I think that makes a lot of people happy. I never had that thought. I probably would have thrown... No, that's not true. But we want an NBA championship, right? We don't want the consolation.
And how do you guys view the cup in general? We know the players clearly want to play. How do you guys view the cup and a game that doesn't count in the regular season? You could argue the finals is the least important game that you play in it. What's the feeling of the organization going through it knowing you're playing games that possibly you were talking about the injuries you're dealing with now, all the ramifications of playing games that technically don't matter?
Well, it was only one game that didn't matter, right? All the other ones counted. So, you know, I think we felt good about the cup. And I was excited to be honest. When we played San Antonio, I thought we were going to play OKC. And I thought, this is going to be a great preview. But maybe that was the preview. Maybe the Knicks-Spurs beat them three straight. I don't know. But to get a chance at midseason to try out what you're going to be like at the end of the season, it was exciting. And I was very proud of the guys. They did a great job. So we're proud to have the Emirates Cup. But we're going to hang a real banner.
A couple more Knicks questions and we'll get to the Rangers here in a second. Is Leon long-term committed? Do we have to worry as Knicks fans that Leon Rose wakes up after this season, says, 'I had a good run. We're entering the conference final, maybe win an NBA championship.' Or is he locked into you guys long term? Because he's the only GM that never talks.
Yeah. Well, you have to ask Leon, but Leon doesn't answer questions. He's cut from the same cloth I am. As far as I know, Leon's on with us for the long term. We don't ever talk about an end to this. We have a five-year plan. Right now, we're actually on more like a two to three-year plan.
You built to win now, especially with the injuries to Indiana and Boston.
We didn't count on those. We were planning on playing those and I wouldn't mind if we...
I'm happy those guys are hurt. I want you. It's been a long time without a championship. I want that path of revenge possible.
I don't want any asterisks.
I told you this before. When you win a championship, five years later, nobody looks back and goes, 'Oh, yeah, but Tatum was out from Boston.' We just celebrate champions and we need a championship.
You need a championship as much as anyone. All right. As you know, I'm not the biggest hockey guy, but I have hockey guys and gals in my life. They want to know, knowing you coming on the show today, Chris Drury, obviously you're not happy. No one is with the current record and the way the Rangers have played. Do you firmly believe still in Chris Drury being the man to make your personnel decisions?
Yes, absolutely. He and Mike Sullivan, the new coach, are installing a new culture into that club and that does not happen overnight.
So, you're being patient.
I'm being patient. We're not out of it by any means. We're still very much in it. And we have the personnel that could, if they pull it together, what they did to Florida down in Florida was somewhat impressive. Just one game, but you see some signs. But culture doesn't turn around overnight.
What was the problem with the culture? Because they went for the President's Trophy just a couple years ago to now really struggling, and last season no playoffs.
I think we thought that they needed a change in the coach. This coach is a culture coach. He's also a collaborator and a builder of teams. And I think it's going to take a little while for Mike to get in there. But what I can tell you about Mr. Drury from the day I hired him is Chris Drury is a winner and a competitor. He's won himself. He can't stand to lose. So yes, he's probably not happy right now. I know he's not happy. Neither is Mike. But you have to be patient. The team has to gel together. They have to see that they can win. They have to believe in themselves. I think the team from last year didn't really believe in themselves. And that made it hard. Installing that kind of culture, especially in hockey because there are more players, is going to take a while. But don't give up on my team this year.
No. You said you're going to the game. What's going on with the home playing at Madison Square Garden? Really struggling this year in the building. Is that a confidence thing?
