So, New York Knicks owner James Dolan had a nice sit down where he's looking like a brand new man. I guess that's what happens when you finally find the right people to hire and run these teams. But it was all smiles and it's great to see him in good spirits. But he touched on a bevy of topics ranging from the Tom Thibodeau firing to not hanging up the Emirates Cup banner, MSG networks as the overall business of the league changes and even the expectations this season that he has for this next squad. But you guys check it out and every once in a while I'll check in.
But in the process, you also made a decision, you and Leon Rose, to relieve Tom Thibodeau of his head coaching duties. And Mike comes in has done a really nice job thus far. Can you walk us through what the thinking was at the time you made it? If it was just Leon coming to you saying, 'We need a change,' if you guys collectively thought the team needed a different voice in the locker room, and what was the genesis of moving on from Tom?
Well, look, you know, Leon and I talk about everything, right? Even not basketball stuff. So, but, you know, the team is really built on the shoulders of Tom Thibodeau, right? He built that core, right? We went as far as we did last year. And so you really got to take your hat off to Tom.
And we definitely do because Tom Thibodeau, make no mistake about it, last year going up against the Pacers, that was a real championship team. It didn't look like it on paper when it comes to the names, but just the way they were built, they really revealed who they were in the finals. A team that was well coached and had a bench that had four to five guys who were getting into these games and impacting it consistently throughout the playoffs. They had OKC on the ropes in game four and it looked like they were going to go up three games to one, but unfortunately for them, they couldn't quite close it out when OKC was cold from the field in that third quarter. The only difference between the Tom Thibodeau Knicks from last season and the Oklahoma City Thunder was the way that they responded in game two after the Pacers stole game one. That Eastern Conference Finals, when we all look back at it, there was very little breathing room for the Knicks to make mistakes period in that series. I stated this before, but Jaylen Brown had admitted that the Pacers were the toughest team the 2024 champions Boston Celtics faced in the playoffs. So, Thibs does deserve his credit. Had the Knicks closed out game one or had a better showing game two, that series would have probably ended up going seven.
They and the job that he did. But we did come to the conclusion that, you know, we had an idea of how we wanted to organize the team. And actually it goes for both teams and that meant we needed to evolve right actually beyond the old traditional coaching, you know, formulas etc. And, you know, we tried to work that with Tom. It really wasn't his thing.
And unfortunately, that not being Tom Thibodeau's thing came back to haunt him because out of the final four teams that was left in the playoffs between the Knicks, Pacers, Thunder, Timberwolves, the Knicks were the only team that was not consistently using their bench. Their roster was a little bit too topheavy when it came to the minutes. And also, let me add on this. When it comes to the bench scoring for the Pacers, it was so consistent. Even in game five with the Knicks winning, the Pacers bench was still able to drop 56 points. So regardless if the Knicks had closed out game one or not, there was always going to be very little breathing room to make mistakes throughout that whole series.
Let me, I don't want to put words in your mouth from that. Do you mean like not using the bench that much? The style of play referencing that?
The, you know, that's some of it, right? But it is much more about style of leadership, right? Collaboration versus sort of lone wolf type of thing.
Thank you for giving me the word. I got you. That's better than the one I was thinking of. But, you know, because of the way particularly basketball but also hockey too, the way the sports evolving, how much more complicated it is, you know, we're very, very big on development in both clubs because you can't, it's not like the old days like the old Yankees where, you know, you get Reggie Jackson and this guy and this guy to put together a team. You really, it's almost impossible to do that in the NBA. You have to homegrow some of your talent and that build that also builds up trade currency etc. But it's a development thing.
Hey, right there James Dolan is making reference to the new CBA something I've expressed for a couple of seasons now. A couple you fellas looked at me like I was bugged out. But within these new rules, the days of just buying out star players is over. Now, because teams don't want to hit that second apron and just deal with all those restrictive penalties to making your team better from year to year, they're going to have to land on a lot of gems late first rounds all the way to the second and even undrafted. So, in a way, the NBA today, no matter where you get drafted, your money-making potential is really unlimited. Fred Van Vleet went undrafted. He signed over $100 million contract. Look at Jaylen Brunson right now with the Knicks. You could even look at Jimmy Butler. He signed multiple $100 million contracts. So, the landscape today is definitely a lot different. And there's going to be a more focus on trying to avoid hitting that second apron. You could dip into it for one year, but you got to pivot away and flex out of it for maybe the second or third year. Look at the Boston Celtics with Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown. They quickly had to dump guys off even though they were considered a championship contending team because they don't want to deal with the penalties. And with knowing that situation, eventually we're going to have to take a close look at Karl-Anthony Towns and how that will affect the Knicks after next summer. This current version of the Knicks was never built to last long. They've already had a couple attempts at perhaps competing for a championship and this season may be the last one with this current version of the Knicks.
But it's a development thing and that's a team of people. There's literally 20 people, right, who are specifically, you know, dedicated to developing the players, to getting their skill levels up, to getting the strategy on the court in.
So part of that's develop players that become trade pieces, develop players that obviously become valuable depth guys off your bench.
Right. And that's important for the development of a franchise.
Aka Mitchell Robinson. He's coming through clutch for us right now. Shout out to Money Mitch. He's one of the longest tenure Knicks I've seen in a while.
Right. And that really, you know, look, Tom liked development but he didn't really... well, he's a guy that, you know, he likes playing the veterans, he likes playing the guys that, you know, buy into his system.
And guys like that and he has throughout his career have a shelf life, right? And he got to an Eastern Conference final, you guys collectively had to have felt that while the run was great and he gets a lot of credit for being a part of the Knicks turnaround that you couldn't win a title with him, that had to be the thinking.
Not only that was the thinking, you could see the proof. The Knicks went up against a young Detroit Pistons team that really couldn't shoot, but yet they didn't have one game throughout that whole series where they actually pulled away. Matter of fact, our offense went through too many dry spells. In game two, in the third quarter, we only had 18 points. In game four, in the third quarter, we only had 14 points. In game six, the closeout game, we only had 20 points and was low-key struggling the whole time. But the only reason the game remained close is that the Pistons couldn't make a three-point shot. OG, everybody was going under screens and just daring Cade to shoot. So, the offense in that series left a lot to the imagination going up against a young Pistons team like that. And finally, the dandatada of it all was game two going up against the Pacers. The Knicks had to play with a certain sense of urgency on the offensive end with them stealing game one and the offense overall was just pretty stagnant. So, the proof was in the pudding throughout the playoffs.
I will, I won't say you can't win a title with Tom Thibodeau, that I don't necessarily know that's true. It's just that if you want to build a long-term competitive, compete for the, you know, you need a different guy. You need somebody who's a, you know, much more of a collaborator than Tom was. But still, you know, Tom is still a great coach, right? He should coach again in the NBA. If I had a franchise that I was, you know, just starting with etc. He would be, he's a gold mine to get.
That's facts. Everywhere Tom Thibodeau has gone they kind of struggled afterwards. I believe the Knicks right now is one of the first teams where this really is not necessarily the case because the team relatively is still at their peak. But when he left Chicago, that team instantly fell off. And the same thing in Minnesota. Minnesota missed the playoffs for the next like two to three seasons.
He was like that for us when we first started and he first came in. He brought discipline, right? He brought strategy, right? He was right. He brought us all that way, but we really felt we needed to make a change to go the rest of the way.
Now, did you go to Tom and discuss these changes or did you just and take his... No, I'm saying, like did you mention it wasn't his thing? Was there discussions about possibly getting him to change and it felt like it wasn't going to happen or did you just make the assumption Tom wasn't the kind of coach who could make the changes you were looking for?
We talked to Tom all the time. Right. And, you know, look, so I mean I don't want to get too deep into what, you know, the interaction but I would say that whole last year we were talking to Tom about where we wanted to go etc and he's a stubborn guy.
He's stubborn. He'd probably tell you that he's stubborn but he'd also tell you that he's right.
Which is the problem with being what stubborn people say. And also for Tom, the talent pool that has entered the NBA in the past couple of drafts due to the global appeal of the game. There's going to be a lot of guys coming out of the second round with a very similar story to the Jaylen Brunson archetypes or even Jokic. And again, just the way the league is structured right now, you're going to have to have a couple of those guys coming out of your bench and actually utilizing them, whether you're a contending team or a team that's struggling to get into the play-in. Look how the Oklahoma City Thunder were able to capture a title with guys like Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe, Aaron Wiggins, Ajay Mitchell. They got a consistent group of guys that they drafted and developed within their system.
Last thing on Thibodeau, do you think he was surprised or do you think he kind of saw it coming just based on, you know, interpersonal relationships and how things had evolved for him?
I think he was mildly surprised.
Right. Like I said, he's a great coach, right? So he had probably a reason to be surprised.
I believe the only surprise was how quickly the Knicks fired him after the season ended because had they done it right before free agency and with the finals ending, they would have seen the reality that the Indiana Pacers were a championship team the whole time. But shout out to Thibs. He definitely deserves his flowers because he did set a standard when the Knicks were coming off those seasons with David Fizdale and Jeff Hornacek. Now, James Dolan was asked about raising the championship banner, and as we all know, the media loves to try to find that trigger point to troll the Knicks fan base. Even though successful teams like the Bucks and the Lakers had won the Emirates Cup previously, but yet their banner situations wasn't really a big deal. It's amazing how that works. But I'm always saying, my fellow Knicks fans, you will have haters even through success because all the other fan bases as well as the media, they already know the league looks quite different when the Knicks are popping. That's why they all come together like Thanos and hate on you.
I go, I can guarantee you we are not raising a banner. Not that we're not proud of... No, we are going to raise a banner.
We're going to raise the NBA championship.
That's the banner we want to raise. I said for all the accomplishments way back in the day the Knicks had, James Dolan and the New York Knicks are not as much as it's great to win. And I think what Mike Brown said afterward which was important, teams have to learn how to win. That was a playoff game. It was a game seven atmosphere. Spurs are a really good basketball team. That fourth quarter was awesome. And I'm a fan of the cup because you get special games like that in the regular season.
But I know the NBA wants teams to raise a banner. The Lakers said no for a while. Eventually they did because LeBron wanted one. Milwaukee said no for a while. Eventually they did. Was there ever a thought we're going to raise an Emirates Cup banner at Madison Square Garden?
I think that makes a lot of people happy. I never had that thought. And I probably would have thrown the... No, that's not true. But, you know, we want an NBA championship, right? We don't want, it's a consolation.
