Welcome everybody to The B Word. I'm Steve Lee, the lead of Square Crypto, and I'm here today to moderate a discussion about Bitcoin that will span from what makes it special to its relationship with energy, the community ethos, and the future of Bitcoin. I'm joined by three special guests: the first is Cathie Wood, founder, CEO, and CIO of ARK Invest. Next is Elon Musk, technoking of Tesla and chief engineer of SpaceX. And finally, Jack Dorsey, CEO of Square and CEO of Twitter. So we have a lot to talk about today, so let's get to the talk and get right to it. I'm going to start off by asking each of you a question, which is: what's shaped and influenced your views on Bitcoin? And let's start with Cathie.
Okay, Steve, thank you. Well, the first thing was our focus on disruptive innovation. So starting in 2011, Brett Winton, our director of research, who I know will be on the program later, he started talking about this thing called crypto, well, Bitcoin at the time, and it was a curiosity as we were doing our brainstorms in research. But as we learned more about this open-source ecosystem that might fulfill the role of the payment system that the internet neglected to build into the system, not expecting commerce, we thought, 'Huh, this might be something.' And then I became even more interested when I realized that my economics would come into play as well here. And Art Laffer, my mentor from USC and a monetary scholar, in 2014, I asked him if he would collaborate on a paper on Bitcoin. And he was a bit of a naysayer at first, but agreed to read the paper. He read the paper, tore it up, and from an economics point of view, really wanted to understand this. And he said, 'You know, I think you got something here. This is a rules-based monetary system. I've been waiting for this for my entire career.' So the combination of disruptive innovation generally, economics on top of that, and the huge misunderstanding out there as to what this is, that was intriguing and launched our research effort.
Thank you. Elon, what's influenced your views on Bitcoin?
Well, I've thought about money for quite a while, obviously since the PayPal days, and then the companies that preceded that, X.com, which I created, and Confinity, which Peter Thiel, Max Levchin, Luke Nosek, and others created. We combined the companies and made PayPal. So I've been thinking about money for a long time. And really, it's best to think of money as an information system, primarily an information system for labor allocation. And for practical purposes, it exists in a series of heterogeneous databases, like very different databases in bank mainframes around the world. It moves quite slowly in reality. It may seem to move fast sometimes, and it does with PayPal, which is real-time, but the vast majority of the systems out there are batch processing. So the actual reconciliation may take one to five business days, sometimes longer. And you have a system which is ancient and still in operation, which allows transfers effectively like a check would be, but it's not secure. And you've got the credit card systems, which are also not secure. It'll be like handing your username and password to a stranger in a restaurant if you buy a meal. So there's definitely an opportunity for something that is better from an information theory standpoint. And you can think of it like data on a network, I think, is the way to view it. What has the most throughput? What has the least error loss? What drops the fewest packets? Fraud, for example, being a source of error, and government interference in currencies being a source of error. But it's fundamentally an information system. So I think it makes sense to support something that improves the quality of information with which we conduct the economy. And you know, Bitcoin is a candidate for that. It does, I think, some things well, and it's obviously evolving. And there are additional things like Lightning being done on top of Bitcoin. But Bitcoin per se is mostly solving for scarcity, or rather, solving for essentially having no throat to choke, decentralized. So there's no one who can be coerced in any way to empty that Bitcoin account. Well, I guess they could technically on an individual basis, but the system as a whole cannot. And it has an open ledger, which is also quite good. But transaction volume is low, transaction cost is high, and usability for the average person is not yet very good. But it has a lot of potential. And I should say that, like, I'm not—I apologize taking a long time, but there certainly is a lot to say. In general, I'm a supporter of Bitcoin and the idea of cryptocurrency in general. But as I've said publicly, we do need to watch out for crypto taking, especially Bitcoin using proof of work, to maybe use energy that's maybe a bit too much and not necessarily good for the environment. So, but on balance, I support Bitcoin. And I'm not an investor. The only publicly traded stock I own is Tesla, and the only significant thing I own outside of Tesla is my SpaceX stock that helped create both companies. But apart from that, I do own Bitcoin, and Tesla owns Bitcoin, SpaceX owns Bitcoin, and I do personally own a bit of Ethereum and Dogecoin, of course.
Good, great, thank you. And we'll get into some of those issues in more depth as well. Jack, how about you? What shaped your views of Bitcoin?
The network and the community. You know, it's deeply principled, it's weird as hell, it's always evolving, and it just reminded me of the internet when I was a kid. And you know, I encountered cypherpunks when I was fairly young, and this was a topic of discussion for years. I didn't touch it until 2008 when we started Square. You know, Elon and teams at X and PayPal inspired a lot of what we were trying to do, trying to bring it more to a physical world. But we encountered this crazy predatory system that was slow, that was obtuse. And I think, you know, one of the things that we tried to do, which X and PayPal also tried to do, is build an abstraction layer around this complication and around this predatory nature that the financial industry can tend to be, and make it work for people. But when I saw Bitcoin in 2009, you see a chance to replace the whole foundation and everything that Elon was talking about in terms of the credit card networks were built with very different agendas and a very different time frame. And it's crazy that they still exist and they have scaled, but they just are not relevant to today, and they're certainly not relevant to the future, especially when you consider the entire world and countries like Nigeria or Ghana or India and its interconnection with countries like the United States and Canada and all over Europe. So what really drove my thinking and drives my passion around it is like, if the internet gets a chance to get a native currency, what will that be? And to me, it's Bitcoin because of those principles, because of that creation story, because of its resilience, because of the number of tests it's been. But what inspires me the most is just the community driving it. It just reminds me of the early internet. It's the only reason that I have a career, because I learned so much from people who are building Bitcoin today, and I continue to learn in that sense. And I'm so grateful for it.
So that's a good segue into the next question I'd like to ask you, Jack. You said before that Bitcoin changes everything. Can you speak more to that?
Well, I just think that, you know, a lot of what we experience in life, when you really get down to the foundation, a lot of our monetary policies, a lot of our monetary systems cause so much distraction and so much cost. And when you get to a system where you have the potential for people to truly own it, they can verify it themselves. You don't have to have trust going in. You don't have to trust it at all. You can verify it through source code or whatever your appetite is. And that any particular person can help drive the future of it. And at the same time, it's not controlled by any state, it's not controlled by any bank, it's not controlled by any corporation. And these three parties—people who participate in the network, people who mine, and also the developers—constantly debating the correct roadmap and the way forward is a beautiful thing. And I don't know of many other consensus-based models that have existed at that scale for this long with this amount of success. And we're still fairly early. So when I met a woman in Ethiopia two years ago, and she was trying to create the Lyft for Ethiopia—Elon, I think I reached out to you at that time as well—because she really wanted some Teslas. She still has to take paper fiat cash from her passengers and pay all of her drivers in the same way because there's no monetary system that she can utilize. There's nothing digital. And Africa as a continent is hugely interconnected from a monetary standpoint, but also hugely taxed in that same way. So a lot of the potential that I see, you know, the internet having a native currency helps her build her business in a much faster way. And also, if you consider something like Bitcoin existing before YouTube, before Twitter, before Facebook, a lot of the business models that we have today would not be the same. We would certainly not have the dependency we have upon the advertising business model if Bitcoin existed pre-Twitter. And I think the amount of business models that enables, the amount of innovation it enables going forward, especially when you can consider the whole internet instead of going country by country by country by country, which you have to whenever you're dealing with finance, it really just opens the aperture. And that is what I want to see in my lifetime: a currency that is standard and sound for the internet that everyone can use.
Great. A hallmark of Bitcoin is its fixed supply of 21 million coins. Elon referenced that earlier. It may be the first system that humans have created that humans cannot later change. Cathie, I'm curious, with your background in monetary history and macroeconomics, what are your thoughts on that type of system?
Oh, well, I'll just recount the story about Art Laffer and our going through the paper. And he said, as I said, first rules-based monetary system, global, ever. This is a very big idea. Once we had convinced him of the ecosystem itself, now this is the role that it's playing, given that the rule is a quantity rule—that 21 million units—is really a store of value role. So there are three roles of money: store of value, very important; means of exchange, so for transactions; and the unit of account, so every good priced in terms of whatever the unit is. So store of value is its primary use right now. The others exist, with unit of account, reserve currency of the crypto asset ecosystem that's being ceded a little bit towards stablecoins right now. But the store of value is a very big role, and means of exchange with apps built on top of the Bitcoin blockchain, we think is going to become more of a reality. Right now, high-value transactions take place over Bitcoin, and that is a very useful role. So we look at those. And I remember saying to Art, 'How big could this be?' And he said, 'Well, how big is the US monetary base?' Well, today it's eight trillion dollars. At the time we were talking, it was four trillion. So we've gone through another crisis since then. And so this store of value, this idea that purchasing power will go up over time if demand rises relative to supply, supply ultimately fixed at 21 million units, that's a very good thing. Purchasing power going up globally around the world. And this idea that it's a hedge against confiscation of wealth, and that can take place in a myriad of ways, but inflation and especially hyperinflation in emerging markets is the primary way to talk about destroying purchasing power. So that's a very big idea. And I'll also mention deflation. In some ways, it's a hedge against deflation. I know some people are confused that we at ARK think that we're in a deflationary environment here in the United States. If that is true, the odds of a hyperinflation in the rest of the world, especially in emerging markets, is also true. But this deflation, and we learned from '08-'09, there's counterparty risk associated with deflation, and I think Bitcoin would be a hedge against that eventuality as well. So it's a very big idea.
Right. I suspect among us there's not a lot of debate about Bitcoin's potential as a store of value. But Jack, you referenced earlier it being or becoming the native currency of the internet. Can you speak more to that, and also how it relates to maybe how institutions think about it?
Yeah, I mean, like, just a simple example: if I happen to be in Ghana and my family is in Nigeria, currently I can take anywhere from—I need to send money back—I anywhere from 10 to 30% off the top just to send that money back. Whereas if you just focus on the worldwide remittance problem, Bitcoin solves so many of those problems today, instantly, without having to go through any intermediaries or any slowness or complicated systems at a corporation or state created. So I think, you know, having sound money that is separate from the state is the idea. Having it completely verifiable by everyone, including the state, including corporations, including individuals, including developers who want to build on top of it, is quite powerful. And that's what keeps it secure and strong. And I think that's, you know, we need more of that, which is why this conversation is so important. As entities come into the space, it's not just buying an asset and holding on to an asset and treating it as an investment. There's something special that created this, and something precious, and something very unique, which has to be protected. And we need to do whatever we can to help that thrive as well.
Elon, I'm curious your opinion on this. You mentioned earlier about Bitcoin's throughput or the importance of throughput, maybe some concerns around Bitcoin. Can you speak—do you think Bitcoin can become peer-to-peer cash?
Well, Bitcoin does have a fundamental scarcity limit at the base layer that's designed in. That doesn't mean you can't have some Layer 2 system in theory, like Lightning. And understand, Lightning is doing well in some small countries. There's some question mark as to whether you need a money transmitter license, just a debate as to whether that's needed, given that it is not an open ledger. So it's—and that's a whole separate debate, of course. But Bitcoin by itself cannot scale to be the monetary system for the world at base layer. But with a second layer, this is possible, depending upon how that second layer is implemented. And yeah, that's part of why I think there may be some merit to something that may seem silly, like Dogecoin. I think Ethereum also. Like the three things I own outside of SpaceX and Tesla—obviously, it's a new Lincoln company, but of any significance—are Bitcoin by far, and then some Ethereum and some Doge. So, you know, if the price of Bitcoin goes down, I lose money. I'm not sort of, you know, I might pump, but I don't dump. So, you know, it's not a case of—I definitely do not believe in getting the price high and selling or anything like that. And I would like to see Dogecoin succeed. I think there's some merit to considering—this is not a slam on Bitcoin—there's some merit to considering something that has a higher max transaction rate and a lower transaction cost, and kind of seeing how far you could take a single-layer network where the exchanges act as a de facto second layer. I think you can probably take that further than people realize. And as bandwidth increases over time, latency decreases—SpaceX's Starlink is actually playing a role in this—and I think long-term, people probably have, you know, worldwide access to gigabit-level connectivity at low latency and at low cost. And so then, you know, your base layer could do a lot of transactions if you take that into account. So yeah, but like I said, Bitcoin with a Layer 2 system could scale to do a vast number of transactions. Same goes for Ethereum.
Question about the scaling at Layer 1. The concern from, you know, the past five years of debate in the Bitcoin community is that that would sacrifice too much decentralization and hurt the censorship-resistant properties of Bitcoin. I'm curious, you know, what are your thoughts on that? Are you sensitive to that? And are you concerned about losing some of the special properties of Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency by scaling at Layer 1?
Yeah, I mean, these things are helpful to, like, use the physics tools of thinking and say, you know, scale up, scale down, and see if it still makes sense. So if scaling up the transaction block doesn't make sense, why don't you scale it down and have it be, you know, so that somebody with a laptop from 2008 can still run a Bitcoin node? When you slow it down, oh, you want to slow it down? Well, maybe you're at the wrong number. Then there's actually people—there's members in the community that do want to slow it down. But I understand it's silly. The reality is, like, the average person is not going to run a Bitcoin node. So this is—and Bitcoin, you know, it was a lot of clever ideas, but, you know, these parameters were set, I don't know, in 2008 or something, maybe 2009. And there have been some improvements since then, but not a lot. So, you know, it's sort of like if there was still in 2008, there was still a non-trivial number of people on modems. So, you know, now it is quite common to get 100-megabit connection just for a house. Some houses have gigabit connections. And that trend is obviously in the direction of higher bandwidth and lower latency. And if somebody else doesn't do it, Starlink certainly will. So I have high confidence that you will be able to maintain a decentralized finance system while still having a much bigger blockchain, a.k.a. text ledger, a hash ledger. You can make the hash ledger bigger without suffering from decentralization as the average connectivity improves. Obviously, one idea would be to run or to put a Bitcoin full node in Starlink terminals. That way, more people will be running it. Actually, I have run this by the team at one point. I had this idea, which is kind of off the wall, but like, let's say you need a little space heater, and normally your space heater would just be pure entropy. Well, what if that space heater was also a, you know, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Doge mining node—pick your currency—and so then you'd be heated up and you would also mine your crypto and have connectivity in one.
I love that idea. Yeah, I mean, better than running a space heater.
Are there any other—so you're drawn to Dogecoin a little bit. Are there any other gaps in Bitcoin that you see that cause you to be drawn towards Dogecoin?
Oh, I think—I mean, I think there's—Dogecoin has—the Dogecoin community, I think, is somewhat irreverent, obviously, and has great memes and loves dogs. And I love dogs and memes, and it doesn't take itself too seriously. And, you know, I think there's Occam's Razor, which is the simplest answer is the most likely. It's a summary of Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is the most likely one. Then there's a friend of mine came up with a variant on that: the most ironic outcome is the most likely one. And then I have a variant on that, which is the most entertaining outcome is the most likely one. So if that is true, then the most ironic and entertaining outcome would be that the cryptocurrency that was started as a joke to make fun of cryptocurrencies ends up being the leading cryptocurrency. That would be the most ironic outcome.
Jack, what are your thoughts on that? Is Bitcoin resilient enough to overcome that?
I think it's resilient, but also I think, like, you find—I mean, that's what attracts me to Bitcoin in the first place is the irreverence. A lot of that just brings it forward. And at first go, it makes it a little bit inaccessible, but as people get into it, it makes it more accessible and more spreadable. And I absolutely think the resilience is there. I think it's important to have fun as well. And any way folks can express themselves, I think that goes back to the main idea of, like, how do we create a native currency for the internet? Anything that goes towards that path, like, whatever wackiness or fun we can have along the way, that's going to make it a lot more enjoyable and it's going to make a lot more people want to use it.
I'd also point out there's nothing stopping someone from creating a Bitcoin wallet that's like fun and has memes, has dogs. That's possible as well.
Great. Let's move on right now at this point. Let's move on to the next topic, which is Bitcoin and energy. It's a really hot topic that lots of people are talking about. Let's start with Elon. You've been vocal on this. You've said many things about it. You've also said that Tesla will resume payments in Bitcoin if the renewable energy is approximately 50% and sort of looks like it's on a positive future trend. What do you think the state of things are with respect to that?
Yeah, so I do think that there appears to be a positive trend in the energy usage of Bitcoin. Actually, part of this is due to the drop in Bitcoin price. So what I observed, or what I thought I was seeing—there may be some disagreements on this—but from when Tesla announced that it had acquired Bitcoin and was doing Bitcoin transactions, there was a massive run-up in the Bitcoin price and also a massive increase in the amount of energy used to mine Bitcoin. And I think, you know, I understand renewable energy quite a bit. I mean, Tesla does solar and interacts with a lot of wind generation up through our Megapack, because, you know, basically need to store energy from wind and from solar. So we're pretty plugged into the renewable energy industry. And there's just no way that you could basically double or triple the amount of energy in such a short period of time with renewables. You could shovel coal that fast. And so I'm like, look, this is too sketchy. Tesla is accelerating the advent of sustainable energy. We can't be the company that does that and also not do appropriate diligence on the energy usage of Bitcoin. So all I did was I said, look, we're going to suspend Bitcoin transactions for now. We're not selling any Bitcoin, nor am I selling anything personally, nor is SpaceX selling any Bitcoin. Again, I want to emphasize, SpaceX, Tesla, and I own Bitcoin. I also own a little bit of Ethereum and Doge, but the companies just own Bitcoin. And the Bitcoin that I own is worth much more than the Ethereum or Doge. So clearly, if I was purely financially motivated, I would not express this reticence about Bitcoin energy usage. Now, it looks like Bitcoin is shifting a lot more towards renewables, and a bunch of the heavy-duty coal plants that were being used—unequivocally being used, this is not a question mark—have been shut down, especially in China. So I think it's probably—we want to do a little bit more diligence to confirm that the percentage of renewable energy usage is most likely at 50%, and that there is a trend towards increasing that number. And if so, then Tesla will resume accepting Bitcoin. Yeah, so I think we want to just do a little bit more diligence, and I think most likely the answer is that Tesla would resume accepting Bitcoin, most likely.
I would agree with that. Yeah, may I ask a question? You're not quite sure if you saw the paper that Square and ARK did together on making Bitcoin mining a part of a utility, a broad-based utility ecosystem, whereby the overage from sunshine or wind powers the Bitcoin mining machine, thereby enabling the proliferation of renewables to a much faster extent or at a faster rate than otherwise would be the case. What do you think of that?
Well, the problem is that in order to operate so-called mining or hashing rigs, in order to operate a bunch of hashing rigs, you effectively have to run them 24/7, which means you need baseload. You can do that with solar and wind plus battery, but if you only did it based on solar wind overage, your hashing regularization would be much less, so you'd be at a disadvantage. Sure, hydro or geothermal are great as renewable means. I'm also pro-nuclear. I think modern nuclear power plants are safe, contrary to what people may think. So I really think we, you know, it's possible to make an extremely safe nuclear—I'm talking about fission, you don't need fusion. And then of course fusion, you just got that big fusion reactor in the sky called the sun, comes up every day. So, but I think a combination of solar and wind plus...
Okay Jack, I'm curious. You've stated that Bitcoin incentivizes renewable energy. That's what we're talking about now. Do you have any additional thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, everything that Elon said and Cathie mentioned, but it's also incentivizing a lot of innovation in the energy space and just looking at unused energy. There's a company called Great American Mining that caps the methane flares on oil fields to power their rigs. And just imagine, and you mentioned nuclear as well, Elon, just imagine all the unused energy that is just being wasted every single day and being able to get that energy and convert it into a secure sound money system for the planet feels like a worthy trade-off. And that's the sort of incentive that I think is most powerful, is how do we reuse what is being currently just dumped on the ground and wasted and not considered, and how do we do that at scale? And I think that's a bigger conversation that I think is missing. But I agree with everything that Elon has said and also the paper we put forth. I'm curious if any of you have thoughts on how the industry could, what the industry can do to accelerate this transition to renewable energy. And like Elon specifically, could Tesla or Starlink play a role?
Well, I think Tesla can play a role. Tesla's literal reason for existence, I mean, the reason I've put so much of my life energy into Tesla, which is a lot, in fact, I would say I've had some pretty tough life experiences and Tesla is responsible for probably two-thirds of all personal professional pain combined, just to give you a sense of perspective there. So this is a hella hard situation. But we do solar, commercial solar, solar retrofit as well as the solar roof, and we make consumer battery packs called Powerwall for houses and small businesses, and then the utility scale which are gigantic. We've done a number of hour installations like that, that's a lot. And a lot of them actually have been for load leveling the grid mostly. And combined with like big, so like the first really big one we did which is a 100 megawatt installation in Australia, that's actually helped stabilize a huge portion of the South Australian grid because it's able to react so fast. In fact, at first, they've got a bidding system in Australia that I think works at the sort of millisecond level and we were operating at the microsecond level so the system was operating so fast that the measuring system couldn't see it. So Tesla is certainly doing a lot to enable renewables, especially wind and solar. In fact, the limiting factor for us right now is cell production. So we need to both internally get Tesla's internal battery cells produced as well as increased supply from suppliers. And generally when I talk to our suppliers and they say how many cells would you like, I say how many cells can you make? Because sometimes they're concerned like, well, is Tesla going to compete with them on cells? I'm like, no, no, if you want to make the cells, be our guest. It's just that we need a crazy number of batteries and they need to be done, obviously needs to be mined and produced and manufactured in an ethical and environmentally sound way. So at Tesla, we really do aspire to be the good guys, like to be a company that people can believe in. It doesn't mean we don't make mistakes, but that's what we try. So yeah, but I think generally hydro, especially existing hydro, is good for mining. Geothermal, there's lots of places in the world that have geothermal energy. And like I said, nuclear is also good. So yeah, I think just like as I said earlier, the expectation is not that the energy production must be pure as the driven snow, but it can't be using the world's dirtiest coal, which it was for a moment there. So that's just difficult for Tesla to support in that situation. But I do think long-term renewable energy will actually be the cheapest form of energy. It just doesn't happen overnight. But as long as there is a conscious and determined and real effort by the mining community to move towards renewables, then obviously Tesla can support that.
That's great. Cathie, we've been talking a lot about energy, but many institutions are facing questions around Bitcoin's relationship with ESG. Can you maybe speak a little bit more to what is S and G in ESG and how Bitcoin might support those?
Sure. So E of course is environmental, S is social, and G is governance. And there is a massive movement afoot in the institutional world especially to embrace ESG and make sure that their asset managers are doing the same. So if you, we've just talked about environmental and I really do believe that Bitcoin will be much more environmentally friendly certainly than traditional gold mining or the traditional financial services sector. In many ways it already is and it's just going to get better that way. In terms of social, I know that many institutions when they are thinking of social, they think of diversity and equity, pay equity and all of that. But from our point of view, the disruptive innovation point of view, social is much more than that. It is saving lives, of course, autonomous technology that would be another topic for Elon, but in this case, allowing access to payment technology as Jack is saying everywhere around the world without friction. And just back to the remittance example, I think if I've got these stats correctly, you know, there are certain countries in the world that are dependent, incredibly dependent on remittances for GDP. Tonga 37%, El Salvador which just deemed Bitcoin legal currency is 24%, Nepal 24%. And I think the remittance industry globally roughly 700 billion. So saving people these egregious fees, you know, think about it, you're paying anywhere from 8% to as Jack said 30% of your $100 that you're sending back to your family, that is a social responsibility I would submit, as is just the economic empowerment that Bitcoin will enable. We've talked about that already and I know that Alex Gladstein is going to be talking later about the 4.3 billion people in the world who are hostage to authoritarian regimes or the 1.3 billion who are living in double digit and triple digit inflation if not more. Saving them from the destruction of their purchasing power certainly is a noble social goal. So we expand social to be much more than the traditional ESG community. And then on governance, you've got the transparency of the ecosystem. It's completely transparent unlike the opaqueness of financial systems and the toll takers in the traditional financial world. And I think a huge part of governance in the Bitcoin ecosystem are the Bitcoin core developers. Now before I met them, and I've had the pleasure and the honor of meeting many of them, that was a part of this ecosystem I didn't understand. But actually getting to sit down and talk to them, if I have a learning curve need, it's on the technology side, but in terms of talking to them about economics, economic theory, failed monetary regimes historically, they know economic history many of them better than anyone I've ever met. So that gives me a great degree of confidence that they do believe they are on a noble mission. They could be paid a lot more than they're being paid right now if they worked at Google or Facebook or some of these other areas, but they've chosen this sense of purpose for a noble goal and they have incredibly strong technology backgrounds as well as a good understanding of economic history, especially monetary history. And it gives me a great deal of comfort as I think about the governance of the ecosystem, much more so than I think we would find in other financial ecosystems. And just to give you an example of that, I think two years we were talking about that apparent, I mean not apparently, there's a big debate about reorganizations I know in the Ethereum network right now. Well, we saw the core Bitcoin developers and others at work back in 2019 when Binance tried to reorganize in order to reclaim 7,000 Bitcoin that were hacked and they just wouldn't allow it. So we've already had some very good tests of the Bitcoin ecosystem including developers. So that would be my answer.
