Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Today I would like to welcome Justin Sun, founder of Tron and the driving force behind HTX, one of the most globally active networks in the digital assets ecosystem and stablecoin settlement. Justin is known not only for his entrepreneurial boldness, including a certain 6 million dollar banana that became crypto culture legend, but also for building infrastructure and moving billions in value every single day. Justin isn't just a founder. He's built Tron into one of the largest settlement layers on Earth. He's helped push stablecoins into markets that banks always ignored. He has been at the forefront of crypto diplomacy whether it's Asia, Africa or Latin America. This conversation matters today because Pakistan is stepping into a new chapter and Justin is one of the few people who can help advise Pakistan as he understands the scale, the risk, the opportunity and the regulatory environment on what happens next. So let's just dive directly into it. Justin, welcome to Pakistan.
How is the experience going? You arrived last night.
Yes, this is my first time to Pakistan and it's a really beautiful country. And with a very unique experience.
You are looking very nice, very smart. What do you think of your dress?
Yes, it's very unique to me. It's also my first time to try the Pakistan style dressing. Yeah, and I think I'm looking good.
So Justin, it's been more than a decade if I'm not wrong that you've been in crypto. So for the Pakistani audience, please I want you to tell us about your journey. How did you start and today became one of the most influential figures in the industry?
Yes. So I got into crypto in 2012 when I was 22.
Tell us about your journey for people who are coming into this industry now because from 2012 you would have seen a lot of change. Tell us about your experience there, your learnings. So other people who are coming into the space now, you don't make the same mistakes.
Yes. So first of all at that time there's only Bitcoin. So basically all the industry builders together, CZ, me and other people, all together we built exchange, stablecoin, and all the infrastructure, DeFi, NFT, all kinds of different structure together. After 13 years, right, after the evolvement, I think if you check on the crypto landscape today, you will see there's new innovation coming out like every year. This year we have seen decentralized perp become super popular and of course prediction markets start to grow. And I think every year you will see a new topic, a new technology get adopted in the markets. So that's why I think crypto is a place that never sleeps. So if you are in the industry, you better be like 24/7 focused on it because new things just going to come out every day.
Yeah. And I strongly agree that this is such a growing space. And you need to learn before you can earn from this space. And I think this is where the degen mentality comes and they want to, you know, do their 100x on the first day. No, because I think now that when Larry Fink starts to talk about tokenization, when JP Morgan...
Yes. It's the best time to be in this.
And somebody like you who's seen way more difficult times with the bans and, you know, whether you are in China, Hong Kong, you've seen that all evolve. Why Pakistan? You know you have access to all different markets and you are making a very big bet on Pakistan.
Yes, of course. I think first of all I really want to help Pakistan to grow in the future because our crypto ambition and our vision is to build an equal and decentralized financial infrastructure. So we have seen the same story of Pakistan with China like 30 years ago. At that time China is very young. China has the biggest population in the world. But the personal income is very low. So at that time China started taking off for the economy in terms of labor, in terms of manufacturer, but because China don't have a very good financial infrastructure so people still get ripped off by the financial infrastructure, especially traditional financial infrastructure because it's very hard for people to get bank accounts, to get a credit card. Those are super expensive and nobody can even afford it. And if you wire like $100, you probably get like $20, $30 for the transaction fee, which occupies like 30% of their income. So I think for crypto, we want to change everything. We basically eliminate the intermediary fee for the financial infrastructure. Today, for example, if you want to get an exchange account, you want to get a crypto account, right? A Tron account, BNB account, is all free, right? It's $0 for get access to that and also for the transaction fee is also almost zero as well. So I think we are building a better infrastructure, more advanced infrastructure for the emerging states like Pakistan and help them to get rid of the traditional financial infrastructure which also cost hundreds of billion dollars to build in the first place. And now we have the crypto infrastructure better than traditional financial infrastructure and way cheaper and way more easier to get access for everybody in Pakistan.
So now tell me with the Pakistani context we have 100 million unbanked people in the country. With how quickly the stablecoin adoption is happening and you are one of the major players, when do actually stablecoins take over banks?
Yes. So first of all I believe if stablecoin and the blockchain overtake banks is a good message actually for Pakistan. I can give you an example. So in the past like 30 years in China, China is always fall behind on the credit card markets. The reason is very simple because China is an emerging state. It don't have the credit card infrastructure. And of course if they try to use this credit card is super expensive for the card fee and the Mastercard, Visa will charge a huge amount of the fee on every dollar they spend and be very selective. So you need to be a millionaire to have a credit card. So that's why the whole financial infrastructure support is super slow until WeChat Pay and Alipay comes out. So WeChat Pay, Alipay comes out, zero dollars for the account opening, everybody can make payments and almost zero fee for the payments. So it's overtake the whole credit card industry for crazy and China don't need to spend hundreds of billions dollars on the credit card infrastructure anymore. So ATM they don't need that, credit card infrastructure they don't need that, only WeChat Pay, Alipay, everything. So that's I think will be the same if we do the right job in Pakistan. Stablecoin will be everything and crypto will be everything and Pakistan can save billions, hundreds of billion dollars on not need to build credit card infrastructure and no need to build the traditional mobile payment system anymore. So Pakistan will have the most advanced financial infrastructure which you know JP Morgan is trying to switch on right, and be free for every citizen of Pakistan. So I think that's the spirit of crypto and that's something we are trying to do here.
So you are very bullish on Pakistan.
Yes, of course. Yes, I think crypto is actually designed for emerging states because it has zero cost on opening accounts, right?
But let me stop you here. You see this is also a problem that is seen here within the status quo, within the regulators. They say if anyone can open the account, if anyone can pay money, then there will be a lot of money laundering, there will be a lot of illicit activity, there will be terror financing. How, please use this as an opportunity to educate people who think that this is where exactly the problem is, what you are defining as opportunity is seen as a problem in many circles.
Yes, of course. Yeah. First of all, I want to say blockchain actually if any criminal decided to use blockchain to make any criminal activity or terrorist activity he going to be the dumbest criminal in the world because every transaction is transparent and every transaction is with IP, with all the identification. So actually I have been through some of the case collaborate with...
Give us example, I think this is very helpful so give some actual example.
Yes we have like one example. Basically a hacker hacked like one of the website and stole the money from the website and stole the money of course in crypto and moved around crypto addresses. And we basically after we find out, immediately find out the transaction how he made those transaction and also the IP behind those transaction. And when we caught him, he is kind of like surprised like why you guys even know this is me. We show him all the evidence and I think he start to learn about crypto more right because you know how crypto works. For every transaction you will actually leave the message, leave the database, leave the IP which is easier actually for other people to track you. If you are using cash, using other way you probably can hide your identity, hide where you are but if you move on crypto it's basically move to a 100% transparent ledger which everything will be recorded.
So for all the regulators out there and even for Pakistan people who think that oh you know crypto is money laundering, Justin is offering to be the onchain investigator. And if you have any concerns where you think or where you still want to believe the narrative that crypto is for criminals.
He said only dumb criminals will use crypto because they will get caught.
Exactly. Exactly. And you will have all the evidence fully transparent for you on the website. So that will be a very strong evidence right there, no way for them to destroy any transaction, no way for them to hide any transaction. So basically I think crypto is open for transparency, financial system and that's also I think a good part is once crypto get adopted, crypto will replace the black markets, crypto will replace the unregulated markets which make everything transparent and regulated. People don't need to be afraid of their money going to be hacked. They're going to be stolen anymore. It's going to be safe, transparent and low cost for everybody.
So Justin, you've of course had a very successful journey in crypto and it was also recently shown with the artwork that you bought for $6 million. The banana artwork. Tell us more about that.
Yes. So the banana artwork is very iconic. It's iconic conceptual art. So the question I got asked most is what if the banana is gone, you know, like what's the next art? So basically this is a concept of tape a banana to the wall. So once the banana rot or something you can just change to a new one. But this is also have a very complicated meaning behind the story is because you know it's just like human beings right like everyone grow, die, and but we always going to have a new one to carry on the mission, carry on this like artwork.
And my understanding is that outside crypto, you also have other missions. You are very interested with space. Tell us more about that.
Yes. I have been always passionate about space, you know, since I was five. So I always dream to go to space, you know, in the last like 30 years. And finally, I have the chance to go to space in August this year. So it's a tremendous journey for me, you know, we prepare and finally we did it right. So this time I have been into the space but this is just going to be the start of my space journey. I also start to plan to go into either International Space Station or you know we're going to make the new space station around 2026, 2027 around that time. Haven't decided yet, but my next goal is to live in the space. So I'm going to space and live in the space and in the future probably going to Mars if...
I thought you would say you will go to the moon. Because at least you...
Before first. Yeah. You are in the space. You are closer to the moon.
Great. So Justin of course you've been very successful and you have all of these ambitions. Talk to me now and I want you to speak to a Pakistani who is 22, 20, in their 20s and they have access to the internet. What should they do to become like Justin if they want to be successful in life? Because I'm sure you only had internet and a laptop.
Exactly. And but you had a grit to learn. And to try new things. What is your message to this country? Because our country is majority is youth who wants to be very successful.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. I think first of all I wish I can be younger, you know. Which I think is the most precious wealth for a human being. Actually is the age not the wealth. I for example I think for Warren Buffett, he himself today he definitely will willing to trade all his wealth to become 20 years old again, you know. So that's why I think when I hear your data I'm kind of surprised, you know, in Pakistan like the average age is 23. Yeah, 23, yes, that I think that's the biggest advantage of the country right. And the all the technology we are adopting today is very democratic. So as long as you are a human being, get access to a mobile phone, you will get access to a blockchain technology, you will get access to crypto technology, you will get access to AI technology, you will get access to all different technology. So basically with those technology you can find every job, every knowledge, making every transaction around the globe. I think this kind of the power, empowerment is what we have today and what we don't have like 30 years ago when I born. So when I'm born I born in a very small village in China and at that time, you know, so we have only very little access to the internet. So most of the time I can only learn knowledge from books which has a big problem because I'm in village, most of the knowledge is in cities and if I want to know something I need to basically fly to those cities to know about it which has be a big problem for me because it's very hard to do travels. Right. So basically keep me in a very limited stage, you know, before I go to Peking University for the college. But today, you know, even you are five years old, you know, if you have a mobile phone you can basically get access to everything right. So I think that's the biggest difference after 30 years development and I believe this is the biggest opportunity for the emerging countries like Pakistan.
So Justin you've actually shared a roadmap for somebody from having nothing to go to having everything. Which is reflective of your journey. You came from nothing. And today approximately for the youth of Pakistan to inspire them. What is your net worth?
Yes. So first of all net worth is something, you know, at my stage, you know, I never like track it. So we don't have like a robot basically tracking like net worth and tell me so I don't really know like how much I worth but according to Forbes is around $8 billion.
$8 billion and you achieved this in 10 years.
But you are not just making of course you are creating value and hence why money is following but you are also very generous with your donations and you recently donated towards the fire incidents in Hong Kong. Please please tell us more about that.
Yes, we delivered and donated to Hong Kong government, Tai Po fire incident fund immediately after we know about the fire. It's the biggest fire incident happen in Hong Kong and cause 150 people die. So this also of course increased the awareness, you know, we need to be paying attention to the safety and the construction regulation in terms of the building and the framework. But also I mean for myself I think what we do is about charity right to help the people get a better life. So we donate to that fund immediately. And also in the past we have donated to Binance Charity Foundation and we have donated to Warren Buffett, you know, Gates Foundation and so many of the charity group try to make a way to make people live better.
How do you want to be remembered?
Yeah. So first of all I want to advocate for the value for transparent charity right so that's like why the reason...
You already have a settlement layer. When do you think we can see more charities coming onchain? You know we have the metas of prediction markets. When do you think crypto can really come and disrupt this sector of social impact?
So for me I think the product is there right so we just need to find the right people to do the right thing. So that's why I donated onchain to Binance Charity Foundation at that time so we enable in Uganda the students education program is all onchain so you can see every transaction is spent. And in the past because you know even the audit itself cost a lots of energy and cost lots of the money to audit everything right but for blockchain because every transaction is transparent for auditing is almost zero work you need to do. So that's why I think that's a very successful program and hopefully I think in the future all the major charity foundation will find crypto as a way to help them, right? To grow their business, to increase their transparency to the public, to give like everybody a way to know where their donation going, right? Which is definitely I think every donor wants that. So I think once it's got adopted, it will be widely adopted. Because I believe in terms of all the aspects, cost, easier to auditing, easier to transfer those data, and for the nature of the charity itself, blockchain has all the benefits.
Talk to me about tokenization as well. So emerging markets like Pakistan, you know, this belt from Morocco to Malaysia I think is ripe, is asking for blockchain to come and help unlock assets that are illiquid, remittances, corridor, unbanked people. So talk to me, give me a scenario on how Pakistan can benefit from tokenization.
Yes. So I can even give you two examples. I think...
You are very generous. Thank you.
Yes. Yes. To how Pakistan can be benefited through crypto. First of all Pakistan has a very big labor remittance system and the country receive like 20 billion dollars every year, right? From...
36 billion dollars. Yeah.
From the remittance and we need to be aware first of all using the traditional remittance system they charge a very high fee on every remittance depend on which country you are but you know at the end of the day when the money arrives in Pakistan 10, 20% is taken by all the middle layer on all different kinds of the region for wiring fees, for foreigner FX trading fees and for different like bank maintenance fee. So adding all the cost. So basically for every $100 you are earning here 10, 20% actually goes to the traditional financial sector. But for adopting blockchain stablecoin and tokenize it on the blockchain the transaction fee is almost zero and the cost of open account on those and the maintenance is zero too. So basically I think it can immediately unleash like tens of billions dollars of the growth even for the remittance in Pakistan because easier for people to make wiring. Before that like for most of people like $50 cannot do the wiring because the amount is just too small right.
Now $10 can go, you know that's the first thing.
And second thing for every remittance the fee is down to almost zero, you know so you can make whatever remittance anytime you want and also the speed is way faster because right now if you make a remittance it take few days to arrive but blockchain confirm immediately.
And that is very important for a country like Pakistan. So tokenization can enable the masses of our country to start to invest. So they can start to earn five, 10, additional 20, you know, the masses. Dollars per day even $20 a day and that I think tokenization is the biggest sort of catalyst.
So how I am kind of looking at it that you can see where the future of finance is right. But let's go into the past right now. What at what price did you buy your first Bitcoin?
