Well, Josh, you know, from the highest levels of finance to the passionate arenas of professional sports, you've got a unique vantage point right now about what it takes to build and rebuild iconic institutions because that's what you've been doing. After Josh graduated from Wharton and Harvard, he co-founded Apollo, which he and his partners built to be one of the best alternative asset managers in the firm. A stunning achievement, but Josh's drive never stops. And it certainly didn't stop there when he founded in 2022 26 North. His next generation of an alternative asset manager being built entirely in his vision. And of course, as you know, Josh's influence extends far beyond the boardroom, which is really exciting. He's the managing partner of the Washington Commanders, who I guess beat the Giants yesterday, but you know, that's not exactly a high bar. Sorry, Josh.
And the Philadelphia 76ers and the New Jersey Devils. He's also the general partner of London's Crystal Palace Football Club, which is on a roll in the Premier League. So, that is a bright light. And then just recently he announced that he'll be bringing a WNBA franchise to Philadelphia. But importantly, you know, having known Josh and Marjorie for a long time, his commitment to philanthropy, something that has been unwavering over a long time, youth development and education, particularly in the places that his teams call home, has been something that I think is 100% commendable. So today we've got a builder, a rebuilder if I could say, and a pillar of the community. As you all know, we'll take some questions at the end, if I feel like it. So use Legends Live on Slido. So Josh, before we get into it, not many people know that you were a wrestler at Penn and even an Outstanding American in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. So, how much of that mindset, Josh, from your standpoint, the discipline, the one-on-one strategy, and frankly, the sheer grit has influenced the way you deal with a boardroom and when you negotiate. What has wrestling done for you?
Yeah. So, I mean, obviously grew up wrestling and there's nothing like being physically dominated by another human being to sharpen your mind, right? I remember, you know, you literally go, it's one-on-one and you know that someone's trying to choke you and kill you. So what you find though is that when you prepare, when you're disciplined, when you run, when you lift, you know, you do better, right? And that was a great life lesson for me. I was not a good student when I was younger. I was very into sports, wrestling being one of them. And I, you know, kind of blew off school. I didn't focus. And the experience in wrestling changed the trajectory of my life in the sense that I started applying it to life and once I started studying and getting competitive in school I started getting good grades and so that really helped. And then the other thing is, I say this jokingly, it prepares you for the financial markets, right? It prepares you for all what we do in the sense that you know you go through, I remember being at Drexel in 1987 and 1990 at Apollo and '01 and '08 and then COVID. I mean, you get knocked down, right? And there's always someone that is going to be better than you and it's about resilience and getting back up.
And it's also the legendary stories about Josh running investment committees where he doesn't stop until he gets the answer. But Josh, you grew up in Chevy Chase and I know a lot about your childhood. How did it sort of shape your business acumen, your leadership skills because you went through an interesting childhood. And aside from, you know, now owning the Commanders which were the Redskins, were there some key mentors? What did this early upbringing do for you?
Yeah. So, my mentor that I always talk about is my dad. And I would say that what he did is he just believed in his family. Like he was there at every soccer practice, at every wrestling match. He was also like pretty focused on, he wasn't really happy when I wasn't doing well in school. So, that was his one, you know, thing. And he just taught me about family and community and being present. And then, look, he was an orthodontist. I mean, my grandfather was a US postal worker from Philly. My mom went to Temple University. He got a two-year degree, first generation college student. Dad was a first generation college student at Penn and he was an orthodontist, right? So, he had nothing to do with finance. So, I went to Penn. You know, I followed in the footsteps of my father and I ended up finding my calling early which is investing and Wall Street. And I took an Econ 1A class literally that didn't look back.
And that was the beginning. Was it Penn and then Drexel? Some people here don't remember Drexel, you and I know it very well. Was that when you began to view private equity as a route to go forward because Drexel was really the leading financer?
Yeah, so when I started, right, I went to Penn and I always tried to focus on, and I transferred to Wharton. I never heard of Wharton. I got in like the backdoor way which is you transfer. I didn't even know Wharton existed at the time. I had done well in school and then you quickly realized that Wall Street is, you know, the highest life form at Wharton in terms of getting a lot of responsibility at an early age, you know, getting a lot of, being where all the smartest people are going. And so I gravitated towards Wall Street actually against the advice of my parents that I should be an accountant because it was safer that way. And so I went and then I was choosing, you know, between, you know, like Goldman Sachs, you know, Morgan Stanley, Salomon which is now part of Citi, obviously a lot of firms, you know, I go back to Kidder Peabody and L.F. Rothschild and all these firms, right? And so I was choosing and the best and the brightest talent were going to Drexel at that point because of the high yield market and the innovation that was going on at Drexel. And so I went to Drexel and then obviously private equity was just starting up right then. There was like KKR and Forstmann Little and really in 1985 a small firm called Blackstone was formed. And after I applied to one business school which was Harvard and I said if I get in I'll go and I lifted my head up and went to Harvard. And it's a really interesting story. I joined this small 5-year-old firm with 30 people called Blackstone. And so at that point, you know, it was a very evolving industry and again it was all about the smartest people going, it was the most intense. And I always shot high with my own aspiration and I just went where that took me. And that's when Apollo came calling 60 days after Blackstone.
And I remember it well. But in fact, look, you worked for Mike Milken, a good friend of both of ours, the legendary Mike. But in fact, you know, you talk about your parents wanting you to be an accountant. I mean, you went through the bankruptcy of Drexel. I mean, this amazing firm went bankrupt and then after this, how should we say, short stint with Steve at Blackstone, you then turned around and co-founded Apollo with Leon and Mark, right? Just walk us through what impact collapsing, the collapsing of a giant came and then how you were able to turn around and start to begin the vision for the birth of Apollo.
Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, Apollo, you know, Drexel went out of business. 10,000 people lost their jobs and it's a great lesson in, you know, kind of the ups and downs of Wall Street, right? And I actually happened to be at Harvard Business School at that time. I was literally interviewing, I mean, a lot of this stuff is even crazy to talk about. I was interviewing with Steve Schwarzman about getting a job at Blackstone and Pete Peterson walked in and said, 'Banks are pulling, Drexel's done.' And I saw EF Hutton, right? So, I was literally in their office. It was February of '90. And then the entire high yield market collapsed because the government decided that savings and loan companies should no longer buy high yield securities. And so the bid fell out of the market and all these great bonds, the debt of great companies, it sounds kind of hard to believe now, but RJR Nabisco, McCaw Cellular, Turner Broadcasting, had traded down to like 50, 60 cents on the dollar. And that created an opportunity for Apollo to innovate and to change the way private equity was done even though it was a nascent industry.
But you took a risk. I mean, Josh, you didn't come from money, right? I mean, you had gone through this. You'd seen something implode. What made you think that the vision of Apollo could actually work? Because people forget there were, as I remember well, there were three of you sitting in Bennett LeBow's conference room, right?
245 Park. Um, look, I think I always, I mean, a lot of times I talk to people about these career choices and I think when you're making a career choice, I decided to start a business at age 25, right? So maybe I took a bit of a risk but I felt that one, I had worked with, I had my Harvard education, my Wharton education and my MBA and my Drexel two years to fall back on. So I thought I had some downside protection. Apollo had already, you know, I was confident that I joined as we were raising our first 400 million. And so I knew the lights were going to be on, right? And I was working with people that I knew and respected and I thought we were innovating. And so I weighed all that. I kind of think, you know, every career choice you make, you have to kind of weigh the risk and return. And I did that and I decided to make the jump. And obviously I haven't looked back since. And by the way, if I had stayed at Blackstone, I don't think it would have ended up, there was only 30 people there at the time. So I think, you know, look, when you're joining, I mean, look, the real lesson is so I think, you know, treat yourself like an investment. Go through the risk, the returns, the upside, the downside and decide, you know, when you make your bet. And today in today's culture, everyone wants to do startups, right? But for every Mark Zuckerberg or success story, there's probably a hundred failures you haven't heard about. So, I always caution people like wait for the pitch, you know, wait for the fat pitch and the fat pitch comes at 25, you know, make sure you have your overhead covered and then you can survive it, right? And I was young. I didn't have a wife. I didn't have kids. I was 25 years old and so it was almost like the perfect time for me to take a risk.
But then you did it again. I mean, who would have dreamt at that time that Apollo would have a 70, 75 billion market cap, 900 billion under management and then after 32 years at Apollo building something that was absolutely phenomenal, you turned around and started again to build 26 North. Are you creating something sort of fundamentally different because Apollo has now become this incredibly broad asset manager? What's the vision for 26 North in your mind?
Yeah. So, first I did a startup when I was 55 and I did one at 25, or 57 and 25. And look, I think doing one at 57 when you're well capitalized and you have a lot of knowledge and relationships and expertise is, you know, you have a lot of advantages. On the other hand, I'm exhausted. You work super hard, right? And so I would say that for me personally, I had two or three things in mind. One, I had taken a year off from Apollo and after asking my kids to go to lunch multiple times finally they were like, 'Dad, get a job.' So, I'm just a better, I just personally am a little crazy in the sense that I love doing this. I love working. I love creating things. I love creating institutions that are excellent that are mission-driven. And I'm a better father, husband, friend, and person when I'm really busy and redlining. This is a bit too much. And then secondly, I saw an opportunity. I saw an opportunity that, you know, the big firms had gotten so big and they had created these incredible ecosystems with incredible talent and people and technology and, you know, integrated business models. And then the, you know, below the top 10 firms, top 10 firms in alts now get 80% of the capital. Below the top 10 firms, the middle market really hadn't kept pace. Anyone who's now big, anyone who's middle market is now big. And so I felt that there was this opportunity to create a next generation alts firm that would in a small way be disruptive in terms of our ability to get better, get the best talent, you know, and to create alignment. I'm the largest investor and, you know, many of the people that join us, you know, they're taking big pay cuts but they have this upside that I used to have at Apollo but now it's harder to get at these.
Have you had any major milestones in the three years that you look back and say these are the things that we've accomplished on this journey? Anything in your mind that you would...
Yeah, I would say, you know, obviously hiring, you know, Mark Weinberg out of Brookfield, hiring Brendan McGovern, hiring Evans, a lot of it is like making key strategic hires. And then obviously, you know, we're at 32 billion now. I would say, you know, we've, you know, I would say the big reinsurance transaction we did with American Equity Life that put us in business. And then, you know, we're now, we've now raised the largest private equity fund ever and first time fund, you know, which is, you know, now approaching five billion. And, you know, and then, you know, our direct lending platform is now 8 billion. And we have a $5 billion BDC. But as far as like key milestones, you know, those first investors, right, which I can't really mention, that really supported me, the first key hires that left these like massive jobs and took a risk with me. I have a lot of gratitude to them. And then the first big investors who literally said to me, 'Listen, it's you and a business plan and some people that look good on paper like this is on you, man. Like we were counting on you to deliver.' And so those first people that supported me, you know, I feel a lot of gratitude and those were big milestones. And by the way, you know, it's a little nerve-wracking. I mean, you're talking to people in your kitchen. Not everyone, I mean, going from having a staff of, you know, thousands to a staff of 20, right? It's a big responsibility.
It's a big responsibility because you don't have the infrastructure, but the vision is keeping you excited. But at the same time, when you were at Apollo, you and my good friend David Blitzer launched into the sports arena. So, you were doing that at the same time. What do you and David look at when you think about this? First of all, your timing obviously was superb, but we'll come back to that. How do you put that same winning culture that you have so clearly enunciated into the teams, the leagues in the different country? How do you translate that drive into a winning culture for these teams?
Yeah. So, I think in both cases, you're a steward, right? So, in the case of private equity alternatives, you're a steward of investor capital, which means their capital is more important than yours. Then you're selling, you know, value creation, you're selling stock price and dollars and cents and the investors really have to trust you. In the case of sports teams, right? You're selling memories, like you're selling wins, you're selling memories, you're selling experiences. I look at it as the teams really belong to the cities. So first of all, you have to start with, you know, what is the culture you're creating and then you have to get incredible talent, right? Like both things are driven by incredible talent. Like those first, you know, your coach, your GM, your president, your star quarterback, versus your head of private equity, your head of...
But it's different. It's very different from the standpoint of what you went through. But now you've got a big public persona because when you're the managing partner of these teams here right now, how do you sort of make sound business decisions while at the same time honoring everything that you said, which is the passionate commitment to the community, the fan base, and the recognition that in some ways you're a steward for other people. How do you make rational...
Right? So what you have to do is set up a business plan, right? That allows for you to make non-economic decisions in the short run. Like we have massive families, we have, and when we included them as partners we said, you know, we said look we're going to try to win that means we might go into the luxury tax that means we're going to try to invest we might upgrade facilities and equipment rooms and stadiums eventually and you need to understand that. But I think that the experiential, you know, kind of sports is really an amazing place to be that the media ecosystem is exploding that people now want to watch sports all over the world and it's going to, and the growth in the media and these big teams will offset that. But like we're going to spend and do things that in the short run might depress our profitability. We're going to invest to win. And if you try to make short-term cash flow oriented decisions in sports, the cities figure it out quickly and they just, they kill you, right? So, you have to be all-in for the cities. And again, it's a different currency. One is memories and one is value creation. But the good news is sports, everyone loves sports so much. It's so important to the media ecosystem. It's growing so quickly that in these major sports, you can do that and still make a lot of money. And it's been an amazing experience financially for me. I mean, the Sixers we bought for $280 million, right? The Devils we bought for $330 million. Palace we bought for, you know, two or three hundred million pounds. And even the Commanders now. So, all I'm saying, what I'm saying is that it's worked out financially incredibly well and we had that vision in our head. I wouldn't have done it if I thought I was going to lose money. But I still really go to the bat for the season and I just don't worry about it.
No, but the bet just as you are the face for 26 North, they put it all on you, you're the face for a lot of these teams at the end of the day. And there is, as you know, when you certainly when you look at some of them, they seem to, you know, blame and praise the owner depending on the day of the week. So, it's a different profile from what you've enjoyed over a long time. But you talked about these, you know, few hundred million dollar purchases, which we can now look at in hindsight on the 76ers and the Devils. You then turned around on the Commanders and paid a record-breaking price. Just over six billion. And as opposed to just writing the check yourself, you brought in a really, really great group of investors, many of whom I know, Mitch Rails, Magic Johnson. What sort of guided you when you were thinking about who I want to go on this journey with because this was a partnership you were creating. How did you think about it? Especially when everything about this as you said is as much about like community trust as finance. I mean community trust is critical. How did you think about your...
Yeah. So first of all, it's worth taking a little bit of dirt. So the NFL, right, you're allowed to put a billion dollars of debt on a franchise. So, I paid the highest price ever in the history of the world for a sports team, which was 6 billion. At the time, I would joke that my credentials as a value investor were shattered. It looks smart now. And I really was a fundamental believer in the NFL, number one, and then the Washington franchise because I had grown up with the Washington franchise. I thought it was bigger than everyone else was giving it credit for, and that's turned out to be true. But when you're putting, and there's 20 incredibly important founders. You mentioned a few but there's a lot more. And so what you do is you're just super transparent, like you try to pick people with, so I had to, I couldn't afford a $5 million check. I just couldn't do it. So, I had to go out and raise capital. And the reason I got the Commanders was that I could raise capital and no one who didn't need to raise capital. And, you know, I had bid on the Broncos the year before and was outbid by the Walton family. They just waited for me to price it. They didn't have to raise capital. And Jeff Bezos was eyeing the Commanders and I knew that going into it that I might lose, right? Because at the end of the day, I needed to raise capital. He didn't. But we ended up getting it and the partnership was created by people who were like-minded, who were willing to be stewards, who understood, many of them loved Washington football, right? Many of them love Washington and they felt it was almost like public service to do it. Like for example Mitch Rails, he loves Washington football. He wanted to do this for the city. But at the same time, you know, they all wanted to make money, right? And so I had to make the case that we could do both. And I did make the case and so no one gives me a hard time. If anything, they're like kind of let's go win, let's go do that. They're incredibly supportive right now. And obviously the investment's gone as well as anyone could have ever expected. But, you know, you need people that are like-minded value-wise and that understand.
And exactly. And while the next deal may be at 10 or more, it already has been with the 49ers. Let's just spend one minute because I know how important Washington is to you from your upbringing and not many people know that about you. Talk about your vision for the stadium which I'm really excited about because it's going to be transformative for our nation's capital. What do you see going with the...
Yeah, so the context for sports now is that they're so important to the ecosystem that so we're building an arena in Philly with Comcast. We're building a stadium in Washington. And we're building a football stand in London with Crystal Palace. And especially in Washington, but everywhere, the stadiums, the arenas become anchor tenants for developments. And so they go beyond sports. People want to, you know, they want to hang out there, they want to go to restaurants there, they want to live there, they want to work there. And, you know, if you look at how Dallas has set itself up, right, as maybe the most sterling example, but there are a lot of them, you know, they're anchor tenants for communities. If you look in Washington, right, they have where the Washington basketball and hockey teams play, right? And that's changed the whole area. Or the Nationals, right? The Nationals changed the Navy Yard. So, what we're going to do is we're going to make the largest private investment in Washington, $4 billion, and we're going to build a stadium and then a whole community around it. It's going to create billions of tax revenue, thousands of jobs, affordable housing, retail, two hotels, office space. And so, you know, it's going to redevelop the whole area behind the Capitol, literally in front of the Anacostia River. So, it's going to tie Anacostia, which is a tougher area, into the rest of DC, and it'll tie the Mall into and the Navy Yard together. It's the last big property in Washington. So, it's, I'm going to be doing it the rest of my life. And it's an incredibly exciting project. We're going to manage the development on behalf of the city and we're going to create a whole new area for...
No, it's going to transform Washington.
It'll be the national, it'll literally be the national stadium. I mean, if you think about it, it'll be right behind the Capitol and the best acts. And what you learn about stadiums and arenas, which now I'm a student of, is that the technology has evolved tremendously. So, every new arena will be closer. You'll have better sound, better premium. So, the arena itself will be better in many, many ways just based on our investment in the technology. And then it'll be a net, you know, all the best acts will want to come. Well, it's similar to what's happened with Steve and the Clippers. It becomes a completely different thing to the days of having an isolated stadium.
Yeah. Let me change course a little bit here right now. I mean, Josh, you've been a leader since you were 25, but you've done it in a bunch of different places. I mean, private equity, the locker room, philanthropically, etc. How do you sort of, do you adapt your leadership style when you think about drilling an investment committee versus sitting with your teams? How do you adapt yourself?
Yeah. So, I've evolved, right? So, when I first started work, I was like a doer and I was just like I would do everything and then I became a manager and I've been told that maybe I was a little hard but I'm very mission-driven to deliver on behalf of clients, right? On behalf of, you know, the people that we're managing capital for. And then what happens is you evolve from being a manager and motivating people to being a leader. When you're being a leader, right, you're setting a vision and a mission, right? And our mission is to create alpha for our investors. And then you're hiring great talent and then you're trying to motivate them to in essence achieve the big vision that you've laid out. And from our point of view, obviously we're in a hard environment like we compete against all these big firms. And I always say to people and it's about who we hire, how we work as a team and, you know, we have to basically win against these big players. And so we do use a lot of sports analogies. I'm going to stand up at my holiday party today and talk about how we've made the playoffs. But now we need to go to the Super Bowl and I'm going to thank everyone, but I've become a servant leader. For me personally, I'm driven by how do I create an incredible ecosystem for my employees and my partners and then how do I deliver for investors on our commitments? And what we talk about is wrapping dollars and cents into impact. And so we talk about helping retirees and school teachers and police officers save for their retirements. And honestly, it was interesting. I was over at the NFL before I came over here and the real question is how do you, if you can wrap it in something bigger than just people's personal career ambitions, you're going to win. And you give them something. People want to have impact. They want to change the world. They want to drive positivity. They want to leave the world better than when they came. And so like kind of mixing these concepts. Yes, everyone's focused on their own, especially on Wall Street. Everyone's focused on their own personal career growth. But I always say, look, let me focus on that. You focus on your teammates and on the clients. I'll focus on you. And I promise you, if history's a guide, you'll do better here.
And so it's about attracting people and then making sure they are carrying on this mission. But does that mean your definition of personal success has changed? I'm sure it has.
What? But today is it ensuring that you have winning teams which include 26 North, your partners at 26 North, your investors, the community of Washington, Philly. How's your definition of success?
You know, so my, I mean obviously when you first start, right, it's like the hierarchy of needs. I was, you know, upper middle class kid from Chevy Chase, right? And you go to Penn and you're like okay you get a job on, you know, Wall Street and you're just trying to like achieve success and for me it was less about financial success and more about personally, you know, winning. I was just personally achieving, right? And getting the face down in the mat. Yeah, probably something like that. But it wasn't against others it was against myself. So now it's about impact. How do I impact the world in the most positive way, right? And so for me it's about, okay...
That can be returns, it can be wins, it can be a stadium, it can be philanthropy, it can be, you know, being an amazing father and, you know, setting my kids on the right path. So, for me, I spend my time and then what do I enjoy? You can't leave, you know, I enjoy working hard and building amazing mission-driven organizations. Not everyone does. When I started 26 North, people were like, 'What are you doing? You don't need to do this. You're putting your own reputation at risk. What if it had failed? You're stepping into the arena, you're putting yourself at risk and for what? You have enough money.' And for me, it wasn't about money. It was about creating something great again that would benefit the world in a positive way. And I did see this opportunity between the medium-sized firms and the big firms where we could do something very different.
But you've always put yourself out there because frankly owning the sports teams is putting yourself out there. And let me dig a little bit further. I'd love your view. NFL, NBA, NHL, and the Premier League. What are the differences in owning teams in each of these different four markets or leagues? How do you see what are the characteristics that...
Yeah. So, first of all, the big sports are increasing, more and more people want to watch, they want experiences, right? So, they want live sports content. If you think about the world that we live in today, there's a lot of divisiveness, a lot of bad things are happening. Sports brings people together. It's unity, right? At that moment when Jayden Daniels throws the Hail Mary, if you're in the stadium, you're part of our community. If you're watching on TV, you're part of our community. You're experiencing that moment together. And I remember watching Washington football win Joe Gibbs' first year, 1982 Super Bowl, then going up to Philly and watching Moses Malone and Dr. J and Maurice Cheeks and Andrew Toney win in 1983 and everyone came out and they were both divided cities racially, economically, socially and everyone came out in the streets and were cheering for their team. And so sports does that and there's a breakdown in community and everyone wants sports. And so that's really important. So all the big sports are rising. As to the differences, the NFL is dominant. It's as extensive as US culture. 17 million people watch an average NFL game. One and a half million people watch an average NBA game. It's much bigger and then it goes down from there. It's much bigger than anything else out there. It is mostly a US sport. So, the NBA and the NHL to a lesser extent are growing internationally. The NFL is introducing flag football. It's become an Olympic sport because you don't have to be 6'4 or 300 lb. It's very hard to play NFL football. You need a lot of people. You need pads. It's generally not for anyone who's not big, right? It's very unusual. So I think that the NBA and the NHL are more global. The NFL more US-based but much bigger and all are important to the media ecosystem. The Premier League and European soccer, right? That's the most popular sport in the world. We're in London. The financial setup of European soccer and the Premier League is harder than the US sports. The US sports obviously, they're in the leagues, you market your trademarks collectively, they're organized for parity so when you lose you get a high draft pick. The Premier League and European soccer have things called relegation which is a financial disaster, right? So if you get relegated, so Palace probably gets 200 million of media money, it goes to five, but our salaries don't adjust very much, right? So, we got to win, right? And so, you're much more short-term and then you're competing against Man City, Man United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, much bigger clubs. And so, there's less, the US leagues operate with player caps and salary caps. The Premier League and European soccer is heading that way, but everyone is allowed to spend. We're never, it's very unlikely that Palace will ever be as big as any of the bigger clubs because they're increasingly moving towards a system where you can spend your revenues plus or minus.
