Principal of 5S Diversity and Executive Fellow at Yale School of Management. Richard and Antonio focus on the role business must play as today’s most trusted institution, the significance of brands in people’s lives, and how they can address societal issues with purpose-driven action.
This podcast is produced in association with Advertising Week.
Questions asked in this interview
8
0:18In your opinion does trust drive growth and if so why?
2:15Is it that suddenly we have belief-driven buyers?
4:01Do you think this connection of stakeholders is a permanent phenomenon post pandemic?
5:31How do you look at those five component parts and does it depend by category on which matters most?
7:36Is that why brands are expected to speak up on issues ranging from race to sustainability to education and is there some limit to what brands should take on?
10:11So see black men for who they are.' Is that a good example of purpose-driven but also action by a brand?
12:37Do you feel that advertising continues to have a trusted position among consumers or do you see in a world of more horizontal peer-to-peer that the talk is a challengeable proposition that people prefer converse with?
18:49... game plan would be you want advocates and you want people to buy your new products and you want people to stay loyal if there's a crisis and you want them to participate one way or another as your spokespeople. What's the play, Antonio?
Hi, this is Richard Edelman and you're listening to the Trustmakers.
Morning. This is Richard Edelman. I'm joined by Antonio Lucio for the first ever episode of Trustmakers. Trustmakers is going to be a bimonthly podcast done in conjunction with Advertising Week and we are going to be talking about the importance of building trust in brands and corporations. Antonio, as many of you know, is probably the most famous CMO in the business having worked at Facebook, at Visa, at HP. He's now on his next mission to bring greater diversity to the industry. I can tell you when he was a client at HP he was the first one to insist on numbers every quarter of the diversity of our teams which was an incredible contribution to Edelman forcing us in the right direction and we have made huge strides. Thank you Antonio. So Antonio let's just get right to it. In your opinion does trust drive growth and if so why?
Good morning Richard and great to be here with you today. I think trust will become the new brand equity within the marketing and communication fields. We already have data from the Edelman Trust Barometer that actually shows the significant level of correlation between trust and long-term growth. The consumers that we're facing today, particularly younger millennials and Generation Z, expect to know the values and mission and character of the companies they buy products from. And that is research after research has proven that. So more and more companies are going to need to take a more purposeful and intentional stand in defining what they do, why they do it and what are the values that the company embraces.
So historically that's been the remit of the corporation that purpose and CSR and whatever has sat with the chief communications officer. What's the change? Is it that suddenly we have belief-driven buyers?
Well, the big change is that normally in times where you and I grew up, that was the subject matter of the corporate communications and it was mainly aimed at elite. The big difference now is that reputation and trust matters to consumer in their buying decisions more than brand equity. Brand equity is a brand value within the context of the category. Brand trust is that plus doing it within the societal context that is relevant to the consumers and or citizens that you serve. That immediately changes the game because comms and marketing and policy and even HR need to be working closer together so that there is consistency in the narrative related to the what and the why a company operates. So in that sense it is a very different game. The corporate brand needs to behave like a consumer brand. Consumers need to know the product brands need to link back into the corporate values or consumers are not going to want to purchase your products. And then you're going to have to do this in an integrated way through employees, elites, clients, consumers, and opinion leaders. That's what's different.
Antonio, let's go more about the employees. So we found in our first studies during the pandemic that one of the key motivators for consumers to buy brands is whether or not those companies and brands were protecting the employees with PPE and you know time off away from the workplace or rapid test whatever. Do you think this connection of stakeholders is a permanent phenomenon post pandemic?
Absolutely. And again I've had the privilege of working in companies that have been around for 100 years as well as companies that have been around for 17 which is the case of the Facebook company and all its apps. If you looked at tech today, it's a reflection of what the rest of the world will be tomorrow, which is the bulk of your population are going to be young millennials and Generation Z. They expect, your employees expect to have a voice in everything and anything that you do and they expect to have the space to actually voice their feelings. That's not going to change. There are the tools available through technology to actually allow that. So the first order of the day is that you have to finally focus on your employees as your number one priority in terms of stakeholders because without those company and or brand ambassadors nothing else really matters. They're going to call it as it is more so than any other stakeholder.
So let's just talk about the component parts of trust. So in our studies we find it's ability which means I can do something, dependability meaning I can do it all the time, integrity which means that I do it with a purpose, also the aspect of what does it mean about myself, and last is that in fact there is a mission somehow. How do you look at those five component parts and does it depend by category on which matters most?
I don't think it changes by categories. To me the first thing is you need to be very clear and intentional about what you do and why you do it and what your values are. That is your north star. That is what should drive every single action that you do. Number two, just like you said, you have to be intentional in the application of those principles across every single interaction and across every single stakeholder. And then when you mess up, because you will mess up like every single company that I've worked for and every single company that I have read through, if they're blessed enough to stand the test of time, you're gonna mess up. That means that you stand up, you acknowledge and then you work hard to fix those issues. For some companies is as simple as fixing a cap. For other companies is going to take years to actually be able to fix, you know, artificial intelligence to drive new dimensions of technology. And then you have to be able to every time that you are implementing these actions to be able to enter into conversation with all your different stakeholders so that they understand your point of view and the why of the actions that you're taking. So that playbook is consistent regardless of where you are. Unfortunately, as you know, it is not consistently applied in most categories and in most companies.
And Antonio as you look at trust, that trust is highest now in business well ahead of government, media, NGOs and for the first time in fact business has passed NGOs. It's the only one seen as both ethical and competent. Is that why brands are expected to speak up on issues ranging from race to sustainability to education and is there some limit to what brands should take on?
Number one, as your Trust Barometer has indicated, Richard, and it's a global phenomenon, is that we don't trust the institutions that usually were the lighthouses of good and purpose in the world, whether that is government or even the bastions of the press. It has become polarized. It has become geared to follow very specific agendas. And the same holds true I would say about NGOs in general. So within that context the fact that corporations that have stood the test of time are raising their level of profile is not surprising to me and it's an opportunity that I think the business world needs to tackle and take advantage of. Going to your second question which is a very important question indeed is I think that it is important for corporations to take a stand in issues that are relevant to citizens but corporations have to be very purposeful and they have to make very tough strategic choices as to the issues that they're going to embrace and lead, the issues in which they are going to collaborate with the industry and then the issues that they're going to just react to. To me it is important that every corporation looks at two filters: relevance within the context of the business and values to be able to then select what are the societal issues that they're going to drive because it's important for the business and it's important for their values, which are the ones in which they will fly as a flock if you will with the rest of the industries and the ones that are going to be reacted to. What a company should not do is to stand up every single week on every single issue. Whether that issue is one day race, the other one is health, the other one sustainability, the other one is gun control, the other one is the borders and so on and so forth. I think corporations have to make that strategic choice so that they can actually earn credibility within the space and that people really understand what they stand for.
11 more exchanges in this transcript
Sign in free to read the rest of this interview. No card required.
Lucio, A. (2025, July 2). Meet The TrustMakers with 5S Diversity’s Antonio Lucio [Interview transcript]. Edelman. CEOInterviews.AI. https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/809289/
MLA
Antonio Lucio. "Meet The TrustMakers with 5S Diversity’s Antonio Lucio." Edelman, 2 Jul. 2025. Transcript, CEOInterviews.AI, https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/809289/.
BibTeX
@misc{lucio2025_809289,
author = {Antonio Lucio},
title = {Meet The TrustMakers with 5S Diversity’s Antonio Lucio},
howpublished = {Interview transcript, Edelman. CEOInterviews.AI},
year = {2025},
month = {jul},
url = {https://ceointerviews.ai/interview/809289/},
note = {Speaker-attributed transcript with timestamps}
}