Senate Finance Committee Hearing, Frank Bisignano, Social Security Administration Commissioner

The committee will come to order. Today we are having our hearing on the IRS 2026 filing season and the IRS organization. Thank you, Mr. Bisignano, for appearing before the finance committee today in your capacity as the chief executive officer of the Internal Revenue Service. On tax day today, I look forward to hearing from you about driving taxpayer-first outcomes at the IRS while implementing the working families tax cuts and delivering larger refunds. As you well know from the private sector, there are always critics, especially when running the day-to-day operations of an agency historically ranked as one of the least favored and most distrusted by the American public. But your distinguished private sector experience leading institutions through crisis, modernization, and transformation are the exact skill set that the IRS needs right now. We welcome your insights on how the IRS can better serve American taxpayers. This hearing comes at a consequential moment. Last year, President Trump and congressional Republicans acted to prevent the largest tax increase in American history. Had the 2017 tax cuts expired, taxpayers earning less than $400,000 would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. Let me say that again. Taxpayers making less than $400,000, and most of them making well less than $400,000, would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. Not only did Republicans make those tax cuts permanent, but the Working Families Tax Cuts Act also delivered significant new middle-class tax relief. Implementing the new provisions from the working families tax cuts in time for this filing season was no small task. Indeed, a few months ago, there was no shortage of commentators predicting a major disruption. With the individual tax filing deadline today, the results are now in and the data speak for themselves. The filing season opened on time. Through April 10, the IRS received about 120 million returns and issued about 80 million refunds, millions more than last year. Average refunds increased about 11% to over $3,400, and refunds totaled almost $274 billion, tens of billions more than last year. While no filing season is perfect, the 2026 filing season has proceeded smoothly for tens of millions of Americans. Indeed, the lack of a major disruption has required some of your critics to change their tune. And in an attempt to avoid giving you credit, they now attribute this filing season's success to work that happened over a year ago. However, that shifting narrative ignores the work that you have led at the IRS to build the technology set necessary to implement the working families tax cuts. New provisions for tips, overtime, car loan interest, and senior deductions were claimed on over 53 million returns, nearly half of all filings. These figures indicate that the IRS has done its job to ensure delivery of significant new middle-class tax relief. It also is a testament to the dedicated and skilled IRS employees who have worked to ensure that tens of millions of Americans received their refunds promptly and accurately this filing season. Looking forward, the IRS modernization and combating fraud in the tax system issues remain top priorities for this committee. Excuse me. Two pages stuck together. And I look forward to hearing what steps the IRS is taking to make improvements in these areas. On the topic of modernization, ranking member Wyden and I recently introduced the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act or TAS Act. This bill includes 64 common-sense provisions drawn from finance committee member proposals and the National Taxpayer Advocate recommendations. The TAS Act would improve the taxpayer experience and strengthen taxpayer rights. It has broad support across the tax community and I'm glad to be able to working with my colleagues to advance it. Mr. Bisignano, I look forward to working with you and the Treasury Department to modernize the IRS to benefit all taxpayers. And thank you again for appearing today.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and colleagues, it's April 15th in America, tax day, and Americans have gone through all kinds of headaches associated with filing their taxes. Adding to the headache, millions are frustrated that Republicans and the Trump administration specifically killed the direct file program for the year and put those workers back at the mercy of the tax software giants who overcharge for a service that ought to be free. It's a reminder that Donald Trump operates pretty much the entire government on the same basic corrupt approach to benefit himself and his friends, to punish people he dislikes, and particularly to degrade public service, no matter the cost to typical people. His handling of the IRS is a perfect example of all three. Direct File in America died on Mr. Bisignano's watch. Shutting it down was a big gift to the Republican allied prep giants who lobby relentlessly. I've remembered years when they spend millions lobbying free for the status quo rather than giving Americans a shot at what people have all over the western world, which is a simple way to file their taxes because the government already has the information. So these rent seekers are engaged in a multi-billion dollar ripoff year after year. And unfortunately, Donald Trump is on their side. So he acts continually in self-interest. Right now, he's suing the IRS and the Treasury Department for 10 billion over the leak of his own tax returns. During his second term, his administration is violating the exact same taxpayer privacy laws that underpin his lawsuit by illegally leaking tens of thousands of taxpayer records to ICE. Hypocrisy is not the only problem. There's a conflict of interest for Trump staff at the Treasury Department, IRS, and DOJ. And it's an enormous one. The powerful and unstable men they work for is suing the agency they lead and they're in charge of deciding whether the taxpayer, the American taxpayer, be on the hook to pay up. I believe this is a depth of corruption that would have been unthinkable during the first 248 years of our history. Now it seems to be routine stuff for Donald Trump. So, let me talk briefly about the IRS's data sharing agreement with ICE. I have been warning for a year that this would lead to serious mistakes and violation of taxpayer privacy laws. That is exactly what's come to pass. There is a strong likelihood that this system misidentified taxpayers and sent ICE to hunt down innocent people who may now be setting in camps or worse. This is not an overstated danger. Countless families have had their lives ruined as a result of the Trump mass deportation campaign. 46 people died in ICE custody since January of 2025. There are a lot of reasons to protect taxpayer data. One reason is it helps to promote trust in our system. If people believe filing taxes will lead to their abuse or detainment by the state, they aren't going to comply. Non-compliance is a disaster. It criminalizes people who would otherwise be on the right side of the law and it also drives up the deficit. Those may be the unspoken goals of this administration as Donald Trump and Republicans seek to justify mass deportations and further cuts to essential priorities like health and food stamps. Now, on the subject of degrading public service, there is little doubt that the numbers will show IRS customer service has gotten worse as a result of Doge and Trump layoffs. The Trump administration's decision, for example, to phase out paper checks for tax refunds has caused real problems and delays for millions of vulnerable Americans. These are people who don't have bank accounts to take direct deposits. It was pretty obvious this situation was coming, but the IRS did no outreach to avoid it. Now, a whole lot of Americans who count every spring on timely refunds to make ends meet are in trouble. With filing season ending, I'm sure the committee is going to hear some Trump administration spin about the whole refund question. The reality is the tax law is a dud for the vast majority of working people. Refunds aren't anywhere near the original Republican goal. Any benefit people get from the law is swamped by inflation resulting from tariffs and additional costs with the war in Iran. The people coming out on top, as is always the case, are the super wealthy. Millions of people have found that the Trump economic agenda is a loser for them. The most regressive economic policy that they have ever seen. I'm going to close on this. This committee has held a filing season hearing on many occasions. To my knowledge, this is the first such hearing where the witness has no real authority to talk about the subject because they don't actually have a Senate confirmed role at the IRS or the Treasury Department. Mr. Bisignano is called the chief executive officer of the IRS. My view is this CEO job is fake. It's an end run around the vetting process for a real nominee, which is a way for Donald Trump and Mr. Bisignano to have direct control over the IRS. As for Mr. Bisignano, his recent appearances before the Ways and Means Committee sure didn't do much to convince anybody the IRS is in good hands. Even the Republican side of the dais in the other body was unsatisfied. Now, he's got an actual job running Social Security. And by the way, that's another agency in crisis due to mismanagement. I believe the individual with us, Mr. Bisignano, ought to be focused on cleaning up that Social Security mess. Over the past 15 months, the administration laid off more than 7,500 Social Security employees, which worsened Americans' access to their earned benefits and gave Doge free reign to pilfer their most sensitive data. As of a few weeks ago, we learned that a former Doge staffer downloaded onto a personal thumb drive a copy of one of the Social Security's tightly restricted databases of Americans' personal information. So, my colleagues and I have repeatedly urged the chair of this committee to hold a hearing to dig into these important issues. These issues for working families and for seniors and disabled are just about the most important thing in their lives. But Republicans, no hearings, basically just no. I don't think that's right. This is Mr. Bisignano's first appearance before the committee since his confirmation last May. And it's not even focused on the agency that he was actually nominated to lead. I find every single bit of this unacceptable. So, we got a lot to do here, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Senator Wyden. And we will now proceed to you, Mr. Bisignano. Please proceed with your statement.

Well, thank you very much, Mr. Bisignano. As the agency responsible for implementing the president's working families tax cut act, you have very well explained the benefits that it provides. I want you to just highlight a couple for us again right now. These are new tax relief that Americans were given in the bill in addition to the tax relief that we gave them by not letting their existing taxes increase. But could you please give me the latest IRS data on how many taxpayers have claimed the no tax on overtime, no tax on tips, no tax on social security, and American-made car interest loan deductions? And could you also, I'd like you to do this quickly because I got another question, but could you also tell me the same data on how many people have opened Trump accounts and have received, of those open Trump accounts, the $1,000 seed funding?

Thank you. I appreciate that. And my next question is I'd like to give you a chance to respond directly to the attack that you've already received today and have on other previously received for pausing the direct file program at the IRS. My understanding is that an October 25 treasury report found that the IRS significantly misrepresented the direct file costs and that in fact, notwithstanding the cost of that program to the US taxpayers, about 70% of all US taxpayers are already eligible to use existing IRS free file programs, a public-private partnership at no cost to them or to the government at all. Could you just give me your response to this?

Thank you very much, Senator Wyden.

Yeah, let's just be clear on direct file. Direct file is working very well today and taxpayers love it and all the data shows that and they don't like what you're doing. So we're clear on that. Let me begin with questions with respect to some of the issues relating to the illegal disclosures of tax information to ICE of all people. In February, a federal judge found that the IRS had unlawfully disclosed taxpayer information to ICE in nearly 43,000 cases. So, Mr. Bisignano, I'd like to start with a couple yes or no questions. Have the affected taxpayers, the people who face this illegal sharing of their information, have they been notified that their confidential tax information was illegally shared? This is just a yes or no answer.

Well, the district court judge who reviewed the disclosures found they were illegal, and yes, there's activities going on, but somebody's got to stand up for these people, and it sure doesn't look like it's you. When you testified before the Ways and Means Committee, you told me that no one had been fired or disciplined over this. Is that still true today? So Americans need to know here you have an illegal sharing of taxpayer data. Did you do anything about it?

Well, you have a federal judge who said it was illegal. And it seems to me that at least should cause you all to wake up from the slumber down there and stand up for people. Now, does the IRS know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ICE? So, Americans understand what's really going on here? Their data is being shared with ICE, personal data, important data. And you say, 'Well, you know, we're waiting around and maybe some court will tell us something someday.' But how about the answer to that question?

Same thing. Does the IRS know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ICE?

Okay. You can sit it out all you want, but these are Americans who are angry. They don't get up in the morning and say, 'Gee, let's wait around after our data has been illegally shared.' They get up in the morning and say, 'Somebody better do something about it.' That's what we give people an election certificate to do, and that's what we're going to stay at. Now, Trump IRS illegally shares the sensitive tax information that I've just been asking about, but at the same time, he's suing the IRS for $10 billion over his returns being released during his first term. That was under the watch of his own Treasury Secretary and IRS commissioner. So, yes or no? Have you been involved in any discussion of the lawsuit or a possible settlement?

Are you going to recommend that the US taxpayer pay him? So that's something that's within the province of your duties. What are you going to recommend? Are you going to recommend that US taxpayers pay him?

Should US taxpayers pay Donald Trump on this matter? That's a yes or no question.

What's your opinion?

What advice did you get from your ethics office on this?

This is a conflict of interest on the part of the president. One of the most flagrant conflicts of interest I've seen in all my time in public service. Did your ethics office give you an opinion? Or maybe they gave you one and you didn't read it.

No, but give me your opinion. Your opinion counts because you have an important position. You're ostensibly somebody who's supposed to be doing stuff. So, let me ask you one last question. My understanding from the press is that you require rank and file staff to show up every single day and yet at the same time you get on a private jet to come two days a week. Is that true?

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Bennett.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Bisignano, for being here today. I don't really understand what the reluctance is to be able to allow taxpayers in Colorado and across this country pay their taxes with a prepopulated form like people have in other countries all over the world, you know, for decades and decades and decades. People in other places all across the OECD countries, all across, frankly, all across the world have been able to pay their taxes so much more efficiently with so much less red tape, with so much less bureaucracy, and now it sounds like we're sort of going in the wrong direction. Could you just explain why it is that we can't seem to catch up with basic technology in the rest of the world?

Because the prepopulated forms that people are able as a matter of course in places from Australia to the OECD countries, people in America don't have the chance to do. And direct file, which was, you've answered your question to the chairman about direct file, but that was something that was very popular with the American people, something that gave them the chance to more expeditiously file their returns. I'm not saying it was perfect. That's not my point. My point is different than that. Why is it so hard for us to deliver the basic level of customer service that the rest of the world enjoys? And by the way, that's a question I've asked your predecessors. It's not just you.

But what is the reason not to have to make it easier? What is the reason?

I'm not, my problem is not with the people working at the IRS. Although I have some question about whether or not they're in the right place right now. But the thing that's so shocking to me is we're making it harder for people that are working people to file their returns than in other countries around the world. That's indisputable. I mean, you can read off these statistics, but it's indisputable that it's much easier in Australia to file your tax returns for working people just to pick one place than it is in the United States of America. And at the same time, so we're making it harder than other places for working people. At the same time, the estimates are that the lack of cops on the beat at the IRS is going to cost the Treasury of the United States $646 billion in unpaid taxes by the wealthiest people in America, contributing to the $38 trillion deficit that we have, debt that we have in this nation. By the way, I remember you saying when you and I met before your confirmation that you were deeply concerned about the level of national debt in this country. It is $38 trillion and a lot of that is because of the completely unpaid for tax bill that is the Trump tax bill. So what do you say about the $646 billion of uncollected revenue taxes people owe in this nation?

Okay. What we just heard, Mr. Chairman, was testimony that said that nobody has ever worked on the tax gap. I think it's long overdue that the IRS should be collecting taxes from the wealthiest people in this country. And the head of the IRS says they're not doing that.

We all agree we should address the tax gap and I think he said that he is too.

Good. Well, I agree. Thank you for interpreting.

Senator Welch.

Thank you very much. Welcome. I have, what was the deficit number when President Trump took office in January 20th of 2025?

Well, do you know what it is today?

Big number. And I want to just follow up on some of the questions my colleague from Colorado asked. On enforcement, we have a chart here that there has been significant cuts in the staff for enforcement. And this chart here shows that 25% loss of staff has led to longer wait times. And I understand you dispute that, but that is our experience in Vermont. And also as the senator from Colorado mentioned, $598 billion in lost revenue from the Doge layoffs. Do you want to contest that?

Let me interrupt for just a second. I mean, you believe it is absolutely essential that the IRS enforce collection particularly from...

All right. And one of your predecessors in the Trump administration, Mr. Reddick, you know him. He says that while he described the agency as outgunned by wealthy, well-advised taxpayers and Mr. Reddick estimated that the tax gap, which is the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid, was approaching $1 trillion a year. That's from a Trump appointee who shares your concern about collection. What is your number?

Well let me ask, you know, the review has to be done. I mean, there's a well-known tax gap, and that is something that your predecessor in the Trump administration acknowledged. $1 trillion a year. That has got to freak you out. What are you doing about it?

But here is what's happening. I mean, the number of staff that are assigned has diminished. There were the Doge cuts that did a lot of damage to the organizational structure and the morale. You didn't do this. This is something you inherited, but it's something you have to address. And then Mr. Reddick says, 'We've got a trillion dollars in the tax gap.' That is just totally unexpected.

Well, we need you to bring in a ton of money from people who owe it, not a ton of technology.

No, I am all in favor of that. You've got some successes there you've talked to. But if there is a gap, and again, this is not my number. This is from the Wall Street Journal quoting Mr. Reddick, your predecessor.

Well, we've got the Yale budget lab that studies this with a PhD in economist and we've got a former IRS tax commissioner on Trump who puts that number at about a trillion dollars. So, the real question here is when you return to this committee with Senator Crapo and Senator Wyden, we want that number to be as close to zero as possible.

We don't want a ton of technology. We don't want a plan. We want people who owe taxes to the United States Treasury to pay taxes to the United States Treasury. And that is especially...

How long have I been... Don't I get to ask questions here?

No, it's about to be for the first time. Here is the reality. Okay. The new Trump administration came in and eviscerated the staffing at the IRS. It also changed its policy on audits of very wealthy individuals. And it's incredibly complicated those audits. The things that very wealthy people can do to avoid stating what their income is and inflate their expenses. That has happened. Mr. Reddick has acknowledged that it was so great that it got up to a trillion. That is a problem. That is the responsibility and burden you have to address and get that number down. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.

Thank you. I'm told that Administrator Bisignano is not going to answer any questions related to the Social Security Administration while he's here before this committee. That doesn't seem like a great rule. I don't know if the chair has approved that refusal to answer questions on that subject.

Well, this is an IRS hearing, not a Social Security hearing.

And does that mean that we don't get to ask questions about Social Security Administration?

Well, you can ask whatever questions you want. I leave it up to the CEO as to what he will answer.

Will you answer?

It's pretty simple. You and I have talked before about this subject and that is protecting the data of the Social Security Administration. When we first spoke and we had the hearing here, you said you'd do a complete review of the extent to which I called the doggy boys had gone in and exfiltrated data from the Social Security Administration. And you then reported back that it looked like there had been no problem, that the data was sound. Since then, there have been multiple reports of doggy boy people having removed potentially significant amounts of data from the death list and others and exfiltrated them when they left to provide as an asset to private sector employers and so forth. Would you like to update us on what your review has shown?

And what can you assure us about what social security data has been exfiltrated?

You don't see any data that left the house? Okay. The number of new exams, audits for taxpayers in very, very, very high income categories like above $10 million in income, has dropped by 9% and I believe it's supposed to drop by another 30%. I go back to the days when the majority of the IRS's enforcement effort was in states like Mississippi going after the poorest people. And I thought that one of the good things that we did on a bipartisan basis was to refocus the IRS audit on the people who are most likely to be tax cheats, which is people who have enormous resources and the ability to deploy complex tax cheats. What is up with the reduction in interest in auditing very rich people and the reduction in actual audits of very rich people?

So what explains that for instance the large business and international division lost 19% of its staff and has that affected audits in the large business and international?

Mr. Chairman, I think it might behoove the committee to have a kind of technical session on looking at how the IRS is implementing new AI and data systems in order to overcome what seems to be very dramatic reductions in workforce dedicated to audit. I hear the point that the administrator is making, but I think it would be helpful if we sat down at some point with some of the folks from the IRS to have it explained to us how that's actually playing out in practice. Because if what is happening is that less resources are being sent to large businesses, large corporations, international schemes, and super high-end individuals for audit, then the results are kind of predictable. They'll get off scot-free the way they often do.

I think your suggestion of getting that information is very good. Now, whether that means we'd have another session and have a committee meeting on it or whether we get the data and get the information.

Yeah. Either way, I think could just be a useful thing for us to do as AI enters the IRS enforcement landscape.

I've seen a lot of information that gives answers to that. So, I think we can get that information.

I think that'd be very helpful. I appreciate it, Chairman. Thank you, sir.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Administrator. Senator Cortez Masto.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to stay on the same line of questioning. Mr. Bisignano, how much time do you spend as the CEO of IRS versus your duties as commissioner of social security? I'm curious.

Can I ask because I don't have much time here. Percentage wise, how much time do you spend? 50/50, 60/40, 30/70? What?

But again, I need specifics. You could spend 14 hours a day on social security. You've got to figure out as a percentage. So, how is that?

Yeah. Let me just say it'd be helpful if you could look back at your calendar and you tell us how much time was spent on social security versus IRS. That would be very helpful. Just your days. That's all I'm asking. Secondly, I appreciate you the private sector...

Just a percentage. Yeah, I'll give you hours. Listen, let me just say this. This is an oversight hearing because the taxpayers pay your bill. The taxpayers pay mine. They're making sure that the agencies that work for them are run efficiently and we're spending the money in a way that is efficient for the taxpayers to the benefit of the taxpayers. That's all I'm asking is information for the taxpayers on how you're spending your time. It's not a gotcha question. I'm not here trying to attack you. It's just specifically how we see this moving forward. So, I want to follow up on some of the comments that you've made. You're focused on delivering measurable results across the IRS. I appreciate that. You come from the private sector. You're all about measuring metrics and...

Outcomes, and I think that's great. And in your introduction today, you've identified several deliverables that you're identifying for the IRS. My question is, as you're measuring these metrics, can you provide us more information on how you are measuring them? For instance, it would be helpful for me to understand, I get achieving the best filing season results and timeliness and accuracy. So it would be helpful if you give us the metrics, but you're basing it against how you are achieving that outcome. What I don't get is the building a world-class management team. I'm not sure how you do a metric on that, but if you've got a metric, that would be helpful. So, if you can give us more specifics on those items, I would appreciate that.

Thank you. So, as we've said, you're currently leading these two agencies. I do have concerns and I want to address this. In January, the DOJ admitted in court that Doge employees used an unauthorized third-party server to share social security data and that a social security staffer for Doge signed a data sharing agreement with a private political advocacy group. There are also allegations from a whistleblower that a Doge staffer took major Social Security Administration databases with him using a thumb drive. And then at the IRS, a federal court has found 42,695 violations of federal law stemming from the sharing of confidential taxpayer data under an agreement with DHS. My question to you is what changes are you implementing to avoid further breaches of Americans' private information?

Let me ask you this. I'm going to take advantage of you're here also as a commissioner of social security. I need help with something. In Clark County, Nevada, there is, I'm understanding from our social security office, that there is right now a backlog of foster children attempting to obtain their social security cards. And this is because the Social Security office in Las Vegas has informed us in southern Nevada that it would begin requiring physical stamped certified copies of foster children's vital records before issuing their social security cards. Prior to this change, Clark County worked with the social security office to provide certified copies of these children's vital records in a digital process. Now you are asking for physical. The challenge we have with that is because we don't have actually in Clark County a lot of the physical stamp certified copies because most of it's digital now. So can you take a look at that for me and figure out how we can move in a digital process?

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sorry I'm coming in late and if I ask some questions or make some comments have already been covered, I apologize for that. Another hearing. Mr. Bisignano, first of all, thank you for your service. You've taken on probably two pretty thankless jobs in two very difficult organizations, I think, to really reform. But you have the perfect background, you know, having come from the private sector in businesses where you have to process what, trillions of transactions. Okay. I just want you to compare that challenge and how you got control and had world-class businesses in the private sector versus the challenge you face right now and what you've seen in the first year of your service here.

So you're bringing private sector management techniques to the federal government. I noticed in your testimony you said you've got now a first-class management team. Were those all people you recruited?

So, you're trying to create an environment that's going to last beyond your term.

When you came into office in your position, how many people were still working at home? How many are working at home now?

Were there quite a few when you came into office? Like what percent of the workforce?

Did you, were there a lot of terminations as a result of that or just retirements for people?

That's fine. So what percentage of workforce ended up taking that retirement rather than have to come back?

About 25%. So do you feel you're understaffed at this point in time or no?

I remember when... I read the stats. I just wanted you to be able to relay your philosophy how you can in the business world.

Which by the way that was the next place I wanted to go. I mean is the technology being updated is it up to snuff or are you dealing with the legacy systems that are just creating all kinds of havoc?

Well, again, I just want to encourage you to continue this. This is exactly what these agencies, including Social Security, need. They need a private sector approach. Do a lot more, a lot better with less. My final time here, what I always ask of people in charge of the IRS, our tax code is grotesquely complex. Costs 400 billion plus to comply with. I want to simplify and rationalize it. I think there's two separate approaches, but simplify and rationalize. What I'd ask you off the record, take a look at what are the most complex areas that if we simplify, if we did rationalize that could help taxpayers, you know, reduce those compliance costs, help you become more efficient in terms of implementing the tax code and stuff. So again, you don't have time to if you want to just quick mention, you know, something top of your mind, but otherwise really take a serious look at that. I've never really got a serious answer back from former. So, I'd appreciate... Do you have a current comment right now? It's just off top of your head.

Okay.

Keep up the great job. Thanks.

Thank you, Senator Blackburn.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for being here. I appreciate that on tax day you're spending some time with us and hearing about what the American people are talking about in Tennessee as I've been out and about over our Easter work period. I had more people comment about the enhanced deduction for seniors. And that is something, as the chairman knows, I really push this. It's something I've worked on for years, getting income tax off of social security and I appreciated your comments that 30 million filers have taken advantage of this and that it is one of the most sought-after deductions and that we're seeing those increased deductions. So, I thank you for the work on that. I do want to talk to you about the IRS current administration of the R&D tax credit as it relates to manufacturers. Tennessee is one of the best states in the country for manufacturing and as we are pushing more into the additive and advanced manufacturing concepts we are seeing a lot of manufacturing come back. Now, some of our manufacturers have told me that the IRS has asserted that research that manufacturers conduct on their shop floor doesn't qualify for the R&D credit and that supplies used in shop floor research are not research expenses. And we know China has supercharged their R&D incentives. So I think it is very important for us to look at this engagement and allow this shop floor research to be considered in that R&D. So, I'm going to ask that you work with Treasury, that you convene the tax policy folks at Treasury and the folks that are administering the R&D credit at the IRS so that everybody gets on the same page and that we continue to lead in R&D. And we're looking for these best practices that R&D leads us to. So, can you commit to working with us on this issue?

Thank you. We want to get that one addressed because I do think that we need to clarify this R&D issue if we're going to repatriate a lot of these manufacturing jobs. I also want to raise a Treasury Inspector General report on tax administration. And after reviewing the IRS partnership audit efforts, many of which began under the Biden administration, it remains difficult to understand how these programs actually fit together. And the report identifies several overlapping efforts. And I know you were working on rooting out duplications and redundancies and the large partnership compliance program, the pass through organization, the PTE campaign, the PTE program, but their structure and their relationships are not clarified. Therefore, you get that duplication. And the LPC created in '21 now appears to sit within the pass through organization that was established in 2023. While the PTE campaign and program operate alongside or within it at various points. This leads to monumental confusion to companies that are trying to comply with the law and I would ask that you work with us and you can see how there is so much redundancy here and we need to know that you're going to be open to simplifying this structure and bringing some clarity to it and moving to an efficient enforcement in these measures. Will you work with us on that?

Thank you. And keep processing all of those enhanced deduction for seniors. I think it's section five as seniors file their reports. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Blackburn. As I understand it, that's $6,000 deduction for the qualifying seniors.

That is correct. And per person.

That's correct. 6,000 per person.

And as we worked with committee staff during the time we were doing the big beautiful bill, it removed the income tax from 88% of our social security recipients.

Thank you. I appreciate you helping focus on that. Senator Grassley.

Thank you and for being here, but also thank you for several meetings I've had with you over the last year to discuss various things. I get the opinion by listening to people on the other side of the aisle that all you have to do is hire 100,000 more people in IRS and you'll get a lot more money. Under the previous administration, the IRS placed an emphasis upon law enforcement through increased audits. My understanding is that the IRS is taking a more tactful approach under the Trump administration rather than relying on an army of IRS auditors. There's a greater focus on using modern tools. And I'll let you discuss whatever modern tools is to improve case selection. How is the IRS using technology to improve enforcement?

Yeah. Now, I want to bring up legislation I got passed a long time ago to see how IRS is working in that area. It's long been my view that the IRS needs to do a better job of targeting bad actors to avoid imposing costly audits on innocent taxpayers. A program that I have championed to do just that is the IRS whistleblower program which incentivizes those with knowledge of high dollar tax evasion to alert the IRS. To date, this program has brought in over $7 billion to the Treasury and could raise billions more if used by the IRS to its full potential going forward. Can I expect the IRS to put more emphasis on the IRS whistleblower program to further focus IRS audit resources?

Well, that's got to be my last question. But just let me say this in regard to this program. I get a feeling after all these years that this has been on the books even though it's brought in seven billion dollars that there's people in the bowels of the IRS that don't like it. And I think we got to overcome that bureaucratic opposition to people outside reporting that the IRS isn't doing their job.

Thank you, Senator Daines.

Chairman Crapo, thank you. Well, it is tax day and thanks to Republican leadership, President Trump's leadership, the work of this committee, in fact, we passed the largest tax cut in American history. I'm proud of that. Said another way, we stopped the largest tax increase in American history. And I'm proud of that fact. As we're having these debates about affordability, which we understand one way to help the American people make it a bit more affordable, is put a little more money in their pocket through tax relief. We champion the no tax on tips, permanent relief for small businesses, permanence in the estate tax, credits to expand school choice and the new markets tax credit, some of the things I personally worked on to push across the finish line. These provisions enable families, enable farmers and ranchers back away in Montana, enable our main street businesses to keep more of their hard-earned dollars at a time when they need it. In fact, recent IRS data has confirmed that. We're about 45-50% through now the filing process and guess what? We're seeing refunds going up somewhere around 11 to 13% already. Montanans are receiving over $3,500 in the average refund more and that's a significant increase from last filing season. I know our friends across the aisle have had some concernation the fact that we stopped the largest tax increase in American history. There's been some fear-mongering claiming that changes that we put in place that is actually putting more money in the pockets of the American people is actually creating a disaster for filing season which just isn't true. And we'll talk more about that. You've streamlined customer service and we're getting these refunds through and thankfully at the end of the day that's all it means to an end that is putting more money in the pockets of the American people. Mr. Bisignano, hey, we see the data that's showing the opposite of some of this fear-mongering. Can you tell me how we've ensured that a successful filing season and how we've helped millions of Americans receive their highest refund ever?

You do, you should be here. We can be talking about this. You know, I'll tell you, it's not being talked about enough either. 90% of senior citizens are not paying taxes on their social security benefit.

Well, we got a lot to talk about. I just want to wrap up here. One of the challenges we faced is the fact that 45% of children in the United States never claim the benefits of a surviving social security payment benefit. We see that in Big Horn County in Montana, child beneficiaries make up 11% of all Social Security recipients. That's four times higher the statewide average. So we have rural states like Montana, these communities, they're facing barriers to access. We're failing to reach all eligible children. In addition to the personal hardships these children have, too many of them face financial hardships by not receiving their duly owned benefits. My last question and I'm done here with my time. Given your dual role as IRS CEO and social security commissioner, do you commit to working with my office on this important issue and ensure that all eligible children across my state receive these benefits they're entitled to?

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Warner.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate the fact that you know my arguments are going to be so powerful that you allowed three Republicans to go in a row to try to build up and buttress your case. But now let's bring some facts back to the discussion. Commissioner, it's great to see you again. On the big bill, in your testimony you said you're going to has returned 274 billion in refunds to the American people. Now we tried to actually look at this in terms of what this means in terms of actual cost and let me just talk about my folks in Virginia. Average refund is $346. Now, I believe that number is skewed high because there are some of us at the top that got a much larger refund than that. But we'll give you credit for the full 346 in terms of refund. What has it really meant for Virginians and Americans in their pocket? Well, because of data centers, other issues, you know, average electric bill increases, $24. The president's liberation, or I would say to farmers who don't exactly feel liberated, their tariff costs average family 370. Rent because we haven't done enough on housing supply. Ranking member Senator Warren has gotten a good bill out of the bank committee unanimously. But rent increases up 307 bucks. Actually, I'm sorry, rent increases at 600. And this number of this is just the gas price increase in the 47 days of a war where we've not had regime change. We've not got back the enriched uranium. They still have capacity to do ballistic missiles and clearly the Strait of Hormuz is closed both by the Iranians and now us. So the way I add it up is that yes there may have been a refund but in terms of total cost to an average Virginian or average person from Idaho I see 1,852 bucks. Now do you refute or would you take issue with any of those?

Is that 346 or 386? You said...

346. What we tried to get from which would have been much fairer if you would have just said, 'All right, what's the average amount of refund for say folks that make less than $400,000 a year?' That number would go down.

I would respectfully disagree because the amount of a lot of that number under the 346 is because folks at the very top and I've been blessed to do very well. My refund was much bigger than 346. I actually think it would have been perhaps fairer to have this distribution a little bit geared more for...

And the top 1% sir and I'm a hardcore capitalist but the top 1% controls a greater share of assets in our economy at a level that makes the 1920s look equitable compared to where we are today. Let me move to my last question. One of the things I think we would agree is that the inspector general, I believe the data is, you know, every dollar invested in the inspector general actually gets back to close to $100 back because of trying to find misuse and abuse. So could you explain to me why the administration's fiscal '27 request for the inspector general literally has cut 17% from '26 numbers. That'll mean the inspector general will have lost over 130 full-time employees since the start of 2025. If we're going to try to bring about greater efficiency, doesn't the inspector general play a critically important role? And why are you cutting them at such a dramatic rate?

Right. So, but you don't refute the fact that for every dollar spent, the data shows...

I would think the average cost to a Virginia family has actually gone up under this president and I think it is a, you know, as a former business guy myself, a bad allocation of resources when you cut the inspector general. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Young.

Well, thank you for being here, sir. Thank you for your important work. One of the things that I hear about as it relates to the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, also known as the Working Families Tax Cuts Act, is the importance of Trump accounts to millions of Americans. I'll remind my constituents that the IRS has played a very active role in the Trump account enrollment through the administration of the new form 4547. This allows parents to enroll their children in these tax advantage savings accounts so that they can help build wealth and enhance their future opportunities. The IRS announced at the end of last month that 4 million children have been enrolled in the program thus far. That's commendable and exciting to me. Of that, 1 million of these accounts are entitled to the $1,000 seed contribution from the federal government. In your view, sir, is the IRS on track to fully administer the tax reporting and compliance aspects of Trump accounts by July 4th when contributions can begin to be made?

Well, great. Thank you for the... we'll continue to track that. And if there are any snags you run into, I hope you'll let this committee know so that we can be helpful where needed. The Working Family Tax Cuts Act prevented the largest tax hike in American history. Failure to act, I remind others, would have amounted to a $2.6 trillion tax increase on households earning less than $400,000 per year. That would have of course damaged our economy. Mr. Bisignano, what other changes are we seeing in business formation, wage reporting, or other filing behavior that reflect taxpayer response to the many pro-growth provisions in the tax cut?

The last thing I wanted to touch on, the Wall Street Journal over the last roughly 24 hours had a column, you probably saw it, entitled 'America's New Tax Mantra: The IRS isn't going to catch me.' And I think you know none of us likes taxes. I think it's really important that we're enforcing our tax law and that people aren't cheating on their taxes. So I know the IRS often finds itself up against very sophisticated and well-resourced taxpayers that may or may not be attempting to abuse tax rules. Hence the importance of effectively identifying cases to audit. How can your digital first approach and the IRS adoption of new technological tools help in determining which cases to investigate further so the agency's manpower can be better focused on the core accounting and legal work and if necessary enforcement work?

I'm well over my time. Thank you for your and your team's efforts to root out fraud and abuse. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Senator Barrasso.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations. Thank you for the great job that you're doing. You know, there have been some allegations from the ranking member, from Senator Whitehouse, Senator Cortez Masto, Senator Bennet. I want to get the record set straight on the data privacy and what you've been doing in the record since you've been there because the IRS does prior to this had a really troubling history I believe of failing to safeguard taxpayers' personal information. 2022 government accountability office report found almost 500 instances of IRS employees improperly accessing taxpayer data. Under the Biden administration, an unvetted IRS contractor leaked the confidential records. Believe it was over close to a half a million Americans. Then they did it to liberal news outlets. In a separate incident, the Biden IRS accidentally published the data of over 100,000 taxpayers and they took it down. Then they republished it again months later. Not a single person in the Biden IRS has ever been held accountable for any of this. This is the record that you inherited and I think you moved quickly to change that. So for the first time in the history of the IRS, you mandated the risk management staff now report directly to senior leadership. You launched comprehensive cyber security review. You brought a lot of new oversight. So how has your approach changed the way that data security vulnerabilities that we've seen in the past get identified and are addressed?

I do want to recognize also for the incredible work you're doing at the Social Security Administration. Last year, we've seen faster customer service, better outcomes for beneficiaries. So, you deserve a lot of appreciation for that. But today is tax day, which is the reason that you're here and closer filing. Service, we're seeing under this new law that we passed, refunds are up, total refund dollars are up, a total of 70, 80 million people got refunds this year compared to which is like 7 million people higher than last year. So many of those claims that come in. New tax on tips, they've benefited from that. No tax on overtime, social security. You talked about some of that in the opening remark. What made it possible for you and the IRS to process more returns and issue bigger refunds with even you have a smaller workforce? How have you done it?

I do one final question because I heard this from an old rancher in Wyoming. Old time rancher long time multiple generations there. Could you make it very quick?