They just didn't like it because it was scammy or fraudulent in some way. Like that doesn't fly anymore. This is an active decision at this point not to have any sort of crypto in your portfolio. Like for a while it's like if you wanted to add it, that's good that you're taking a risk, but now at this point it's so large that it's an active decision not to own it. The real neutral decision is just to own some market cap weighted version exposure to it, which is still very small for the size of the asset class but it's still a decision. Morgan Stanley only allowed it in like the third, fourth quarter of 2025. So like this is a very new thing for them and they're leaning hard into it and you got to give them kudos. They didn't come in and then just say we're going to charge you know 20, 30 bips for the most expensive product in the market. They came in and undercut everyone and we're like, we're being serious here.
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Etherfi is giving Unchained listeners 15% cash back on ride shares, groceries, and restaurants right now, which honestly is kind of wild for a card like this. On top of that, I'm getting 3% cash back on every single transaction using my actual crypto. No conversion fees, no nonsense. My bank never once did that. And it goes beyond just spending. You can borrow against your holdings at 4% or less, which is super useful if you don't want to sell your assets. You can also earn on all major assets up to 8% APY just by holding. And moving money is just easy. No hidden transfer fees, no friction. It just works globally. If you want to check it out, go to ether.fi/chained to claim your offer. That's ether.fi/chained.
Advisers and people that couldn't even explain what it was or why it shouldn't be in a portfolio. They just didn't like it because it was scammy or fraudulent in some way. Like that doesn't fly anymore. This is an active decision at this point not to have any sort of crypto in your portfolio. Like for a while it's like if you wanted to add it, that's good that you're taking a risk, but now at this point it's so large that it's an active decision not to own it. The real neutral decision is just to own some market cap weighted version exposure to it, which is still very small for the size of the asset class, but it's still a decision. Morgan Stanley only allowed it in like the third, fourth quarter of 2025. So like this is a very new thing for them and they're leaning hard into it. And you got to give them kudos. They didn't come in and then just say we're going to charge, you know, 20, 30 bips or the most expensive product in the market. They came in and undercut everyone and we're like, we're being serious here.
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The world is about to see one of the largest infrastructure shifts of the century. New technologies are using more energy than ever before. But our legacy grids can't supply the demand and we are barreling towards a global bottleneck. So Fuse is rebuilding it. The energy network is an intelligent decentralized grid that coordinates smart devices to balance supply and demand. The network harmonizes existing infrastructure, increases grid capacity, and unlocks low-cost clean energy. Energy Dollar is the native token of the network. The more electricity the world needs, the higher the demand for the energy network, the value of energy dollars may fluctuate. From one of Europe's fastest growing energy startups, follow at Fuse Energy on X to find out more.
Multi-Chain Advisers is an emerging technology growth firm that has helped create over $50 billion in enterprise value for more than 80 clients like Pith, Moonpay Commerce, and Wormhole. They've worked with some of the largest and most impactful companies in the space. They're the partner you want when you're navigating markets and trying to break out from the noise. They help navigate TGES, go to market, BD and partnerships, capital markets, advisory, PR, media placements, KOA activations, and more, driving execution from launch to scale. Their results are measurable. To learn more and start building real traction today, visit multi-chainadv.com.
Bitcoin changed how money works. Catraa changes how Bitcoin scales. Catraa uses Bitcoin as both the settlement and data availability layer. As Bitcoin's application layer, Catraa enables the first trust minimized BTC on a fully programmable platform and a native stable coin for Bitcoin, CTUSD. Catraa offers Bitcoin capital markets with lending, privacy, payments, Bitcoin yield, trading, and predictions. Catraa expands Bitcoin's utility without sacrificing its security. Catraa mainnet is live. Get started at catra.xyz/unchain.
Etherfi is giving Unchained listeners 15% cash back on ride shares, groceries, and restaurants right now, which honestly is kind of wild for a card like this. On top of that, I'm getting 3% cash back on every single transaction using my actual crypto. No conversion fees, no nonsense. My bank never once did that. And it goes beyond just spending. You can borrow against your holdings at 4% or less, which is super useful if you don't want to sell your assets. You can also earn on all major assets up to 8% APY just by holding. And moving money is just easy. No hidden transfer fees, no friction. It just works globally. If you want to check it out, go to ether.fi/chained to claim your offer. That's ether.fi/unchained.
Advisers and people that couldn't even explain what it was or why it shouldn't be in a portfolio. They just didn't like it because it was scammy or fraudulent in some way. Like that doesn't fly anymore. This is an active decision at this point not to have any sort of crypto in your portfolio. Like for a while it's like if you wanted to add it, that's good that you're taking a risk but now at this point it's so large that it's an active decision not to own it. The real neutral decision is just to own some market cap weighted version exposure to it which is still very small for the size of the asset class but it's still a decision. Morgan Stanley only allowed it in like the third, fourth quarter of 2025. So like this is a very new thing for them and they're leaning hard into it. And you got to give them kudos. They didn't come in and then just say we're going to charge, you know, 20, 30 bips or the most expensive product in the market. They came in and undercut everyone and we're like, we're being serious here.
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Hi everyone, welcome to Unchained, your no-free source for all things crypto. I'm your host Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream. Just FYI everyone that we pre-recorded this a few hours before the stream. Before we get started, a quick reminder, nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For more disclosures, visit unchainedcrypto.com.
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Today's topic is Canton. Is it a real blockchain? Here to discuss are Yuval Rooz, co-founder and CEO at Digital Asset, Haseeb Qureshi, managing partner at Dragonfly, and Alex Glukovski, co-founder and CEO of Matter Labs. Welcome you all and Alex.
So, we're going to start with you all. You all, I'm sure you're aware that you're probably going to be a little bit in the hot seat today. But I actually think you're probably somewhat used to it by now, judging from what I'm seeing on social media. So, let's just set a baseline for the listeners. Why don't you maybe describe what problem you're trying to solve with Canton and how you structured it to solve that problem and then we'll have Alex and Haseeb kind of give the criticisms that they want to have you answer too.
Sure. So first of all, great to be here. I don't know if I'm going to be in the hot seat. Maybe other hosts or participants will be in the hot seat but we'll see. You know, I think that for me, when we entered the space, so my co-founder started Cumberland, which is a big OTC trading desk. We both came from DRW. On your show, I can't remember who it was, said that this was founded by DRW. That's just not true. We left DRW to start this company. But nevertheless, our view was we wanted to bring capital markets onchain. And in order to do that, our view is that you need to be able to convince issuers to move their books and records to be natively on chain. And in order to do that, you really need to solve the problem of how do you give settlement finality, get an issuer to be comfortable if they don't want their books and records to be public for the whole world to see. There's a whole set of problems that you need to solve. And really how do you do that on a permissionless set of infrastructure? So, it's not to say every application or every asset has to be permissionless, but it's actually kind of similar to the internet. The internet is a permissionless piece of infrastructure. Yet, if you build a website on the internet, you're not kind of mandated to make your website public permissionless for everyone to be able to access it or see the information that is stored on it. So, for us, we're trying to make capital markets natively on chain and there's a lot of features that had to be solved as a result of making that happen.
And actually, I just wanted to go back when you said that DRW didn't launch Digital Asset. I mean, so you used to work there, you left working there to start it and then I believe Don Wilson who is the founder of DRW that he is also a co-founder of Digital Asset. Is that correct?
Yeah. But DRW has no access to Digital Asset's equity or anything like that. It's a separate company. It's an investor in our company. So DRW is an investor. They're not the largest investor. There are other investors. So again, both Eric and I, our third co-founder has nothing to do with DRW and he actually came from the world of cryptography. So, it's just that me and Eric, my co-founder, started our career. Well, Eric started his career, I actually started my career at Citadel and then moved to DRW and we both left DRW to start this company.
Okay. And just to paint the picture for listeners, you know, you have deals with DTCC. JPM is going to do their deposit token on Canton. Like you just, you know, Broadridge who is, you know, a very more obscure trad player I think to the crypto world but you know, clearly embedded in that world. So you're sort of at the center of, you know, trends around RWA tokenization, just general institutional adoption, privacy, stable coins, you know, these are all huge trends happening right now in crypto. So, you know, I think like you were sort of, I don't want to call it stealth mode because I don't think that's what it was, but to the crypto world, you didn't really come on the scene until like finally your token launched and all of a sudden we see, oh, there's this token with a high market cap that's on CoinGecko. So, I think that's why suddenly just the last few months there's just been a lot of public discourse about Canton and what it is. So, let's now start with the arguments. Alex, why don't we start with you? I know you have some criticisms against Canton, so why don't you go ahead and lay them out?
So, actually, hold on before we go to Alex, let me just jump in here because I want to set the scene of how we're gonna fan the flames a little bit. Because I don't see my role as necessarily criticizing anybody here, but more accentuating the drama. So, you've all, I'm sure you're well aware there's been a lot of drama in the last couple months around Canton. A lot of conversation happening on Twitter on X. How would you summarize the drama that has catalyzed around Canton? Where do you think it's coming from? And how would you summarize it for the audience?
I mean, my honest opinion why the drama has been created is because we've been able to sign a lot of these partnerships and deals and nothing else. To be honest I think that some of the things that have been said, Canton is a centralized database with a coin on top of it, it's a permissioned network, you know I can keep on going, are all things that first of all are not true and second of all I would say that if people really had those topics deep in their heart and really said that this is not good for the industry I would say that those topics would have come about a lot of L2s, some L1s that would have I would say even worse characteristics than Canton yet didn't seem to be problematic for the industry. And I think that very similarly I would say that some of the partners that have partnered with us if they were to choose different L1s to work with them they would have been deemed heroes and really the knights of onchain capital markets and yet what they chose Canton suddenly turned to be the bad guys. And again, this industry is very good at tribalism. And I think that that's for the most part a big part of it, not necessarily because it's focused on facts.
So to me, it sounds like the really short version is they're just jealous. Is that kind of...
I don't know if I... I don't know. Tell us, but I think that again I think that we didn't do a premine. We didn't go and publish all of these white papers that we're going to change the world and we've just very quietly executed and now we're signing all of these deals. Just today we announced a partnership in Japan with Mizuho Nomura and JPX around tokenized JGBs. We announced a partnership with Hanwa, you know, Visa, you mentioned JP Morgan, last week it was HSBC payments and we're just executing on those things. I don't know if they are jealous or what, but you know, a lot of people have been building positions and, you know, they are defending their position and I'm actually okay with it. It's normal for them to do that. But again, I would love to understand how what we're doing is so existential for this industry and is so terrible compared to other things that have been hailed with so much praise to date. You know, we'd love to understand that.
Okay, Alex. So, go ahead with your main criticisms.
Sure. I think this is going to be a really interesting debate. To give some context to the viewers, we are building Privium, a private institutional blockchain infrastructure on Ethereum. So, naturally, we are solving the same problem as you all formulated. We want to bring traditional institutions, issuers and capital markets on chain. And so we are in many of the same rooms where these conversations happen and we understand the perspective as it's presented to the capital market participants in traditional finance and we see the debate that's happening publicly on X and in other public spaces. And what was striking to me about Canton, I think where the core tension where all major criticism and emotional response of the community is coming from is there's quite a lot of misrepresentations around this specific project that is quite unusual for the space like the statements we've seen made are not accurately reflecting what's actually happening. So I would love to talk facts as you've all invited and actually go and dive and try to understand not the theoretical ideological things, well is it permissionless, is it decentralized, who cares, we're serving traditional institutions, we have a specific set of customers we want to bring them on chain because it's going to help the entire industry so we want to look from their perspective what they're actually getting and what they're being promised, what they're getting and I think it starts with definition. Canton is calling itself a public permissionless blockchain. This is how it's spelled on the website. This is what you all just said. I think this is the core misconception to begin with. I believe and I would like to understand it better in this debate that Canton is not really a blockchain because if you... and it's not about the definitions, it's not about semantics, it's really about the properties. When you say blockchain you're tapping into more than a decade of an industry with certain value, certain value that was generated, some innovations, some new ways of doing things that were not possible before that this industry brought into existence starting with the Bitcoin white paper which actually where the idea of blockchain originates from. And so my question, my first question to you all in this context would be, what is the actual innovation, what's the invention, what's the breakthrough that Canton has built that was not possible 10 years ago, why would something like Canton, why you could not build it 10 years ago.
I mean the ability to have first of all to say that Canton is not a blockchain. I mean Canton follows a UTXO model that can be validated by multiple parties. You could actually have decentralized composability on Canton which could not be done in a message-based architecture. So, Canton does do a decentralized state management which is the idea of a blockchain. Unlike Privium which is a single source of RPC messages that can be called by their customers and we can talk about Alex's ZK architecture but no other blockchain offers atomic composition of smart contracts with privacy. So you know that's what you can achieve on Canton that you cannot achieve on other blockchains to the best of my knowledge including on Privium.
So when you say atomic composition with privacy, you are talking about... like you're saying that this would not be possible to build with traditional messaging systems to which this sounds strange to me like the SWIFT messaging is atomic like the message is passed atomically between the two parties and so it does with...
Composition. You don't have a guarantee without a reliance on a third party, you don't have any guarantee of composition today so...
So this is amazing. So you're talking... so this is, I agree with you, this is what makes a blockchain, a guarantee like certain guarantees of enforcement of financial rules without reliance on third parties. Actually the point of the Bitcoin white paper where the core problem that Satoshi was solving is the problem of double spend. How do you solve double spend? It's actually in the abstract of the white paper. How do you solve double spend without relying on third parties? And so my question to you is how do you actually solve double spend with preserving privacy and with preserving the integrity of the composability with whatever rules that you want to compose in Canton? What's the mechanism that prevents the double spend on Canton?
I mean the issuer of an asset and the issuer, I just want to be clear, can be a real world issuer or could be a decentralized party like Bitcoin, is the mechanism that can protect double spend. No different, again, it's a UTXO model, they are a party to the transaction and they are the ones that prevents double spend.
Oh so then yeah it sounds like Alex's first point that maybe you don't like, it's not a blockchain, that could have been done before blockchains existed. That it sounds like that.
Exactly. Exactly. It's like a database can guarantee the same.
Right. No, that's just not true. Don't pick and choose what you want to listen to. I said either of a real world issuer or a decentralized party like Bitcoin is. Bitcoin is a decentralized asset. So you could have a decentralized asset that doesn't have a real world issuer. Meaning there is no centralized intermediary that can prevent double spend to be clear.
But you're outsourcing that function to a different chain then.
But if you don't... this is not present in...
Huh? Yes it is. Why do you say...
How do you prevent a double spend of a Bitcoin like you can put Bitcoin on Canton. Is that correct?
No, I said Bitcoin is a decentralized asset.
So, but you're... I'm asking you about Canton.
Well, there is an asset, cBTC, which is a decentralized asset on Canton. You don't rely on one third party to actually prevent the double spend. It's completely decentralized.
What does it mean like which party you rely on? Which party like what's the actual mechanism that prevents the double spend?
Relying on a consensus no different than other blockchains.
So, my understanding, I might be out of my depth here, but my understanding of Canton is that the super validators are responsible for...
Like they see all the state and they manage all the state.
That's not correct. Okay. No, please.
Okay. Sorry. I have clearly a shadowy understanding here. Can you explain what are the super validators doing if they're not guaranteeing the correct state transitions?
Sure. So the super validators do two jobs on Canton. What they do is they act no different than validators on Ethereum and Bitcoin with respect to Canton coin specifically. So imagine with respect to Canton coin specifically, Canton coin is a fully public permissionless asset like every other crypto asset. In addition to that they run a composability infrastructure to actually compose transactions and those transactions, they behave more like ISPs on the internet, they don't know what transactions they compose, they act as a decentralized ordering service but they don't have... they're not validating the actual business logic of the app.
These are almost like Bitcoin side chains that's sort of the relationship with Canton and the Canton coin.
Again, some assets, RWAs that are running on mainnet, the super validators purely act as a coordination layer and a timestamping layer, they do not get to see the transactions that they are actually helping to process.
So who validates the transactions? Who guarantees that when you spend one UTXO that has some asset and produces two different UTXOs?
Again, the issuer of the asset which could be of two types, a centralized issuer which is an issuer of a real world asset and a decentralized issuer which could be an issuer of a decentralized asset meaning has no real issuer behind it.
Well, cBTC is a... like it's not the Bitcoin validators or Bitcoin miners who validate it, right? It's a decent group of...
Yeah, it could be some group of...
So, essentially a multi-sig...
No, because they run consensus across them, Alex, and they don't just sign transactions.
I understand that they're on consensus but in the Canton itself when you consume one DAML contract and you produce two different DAML contracts, like how do you ensure that the same... you have one Bitcoin locked in this one contract that you consume, how do you ensure that you don't produce two versions of Bitcoin because your privacy infrastructure provides each party only with their view so like if I...
I know Alex where you're going with the global state verification of an asset. I know that that's where you want to go. And we're going to talk about zkSync and some of your reliance on a third party that sees all the information and they can actually upgrade the smart contract to be a malicious smart contract without the user actually ever knowing about it. We can go into that. So like honestly I answered the question on Canton you could have fully decentralized assets and you could have centralized assets that rely on a real world issuer that anyway you run the same risk that you would run on any public permissionless network.
It's absolutely not the same risk. So let me then explain how I understand it and then you can correct me if my understanding is wrong.
Okay. And before you do that just one quick note for the listener. Alex mentioned DAML contracts which is Digital Asset Modeling Language that's specific to Canton. It's basically like a smart contract on Canton. I just wanted people who didn't know what that term was to know that.
Sure. So what happens in reality is the standard DAML contract provides the rules that... so the way, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going to be sharing my understanding. Obviously, you are the expert here on Canton, but the Canton functions as not as traditional account-based blockchains. It's a UTXO model. So, each contract is a separate UTXO.
Exactly. Like Bitcoin. So like all UTXOs are encrypted. So you only see the hash, only individual parties that are designated by the DAML can see what's inside the UTXO. And when you... and it basically acts as like each of the UTXOs is really a multisig, a small multisig with a number of parties who are privy to the state approving the state transition. And the validators or the mediators serve the role of the counter of these votes. If you get enough of the votes, then the jigsaw is consumed and new contracts are being created. And so what really happens there to prevent the double spend is the standard DAML finance contract templates require the issuer to always be the co-signer and authorizer of every transaction. And this creates two big problems that directly go into Canton's claims about integrity and privacy. On the one hand, your integrity now completely depends on the integrity of each individual issuer. And so what this practically means and I really need we really need to clarify this. You depend on the signature of a single hot server which is basically exactly the same process assumptions as what happened to Layer Zero yesterday with the DVN one of one multisig approving the invalid transaction. And if this happens, if the issuer gets compromised by a sophisticated attack like state level actors like North Korea, the situation gets a lot worse because now the minted assets are going to propagate throughout the network without anyone being able to catch it, creating systemic risk for the entire network.
Thank you for bringing that up, Alex. Actually, very good, very good example. So what I would say...
But first is this the correct description of what happens?
Can you clarify what actually happens there?
So the nice thing about Canton is that we don't rely on an issuer to save us unlike in Privium where an issuer whether intentionally or unintentionally hacked as you said by North Korea or whomever can upgrade your smart contract without your knowledge as a user of Privium can upgrade your contract with...
Alex now I'm gonna talk and you can listen and you can refute my claims later. How about that? So within a block a user can actually upgrade the smart contracts of zkSync can literally drain an account, downgrade the contract and all you're going to get as a user is an RPC call from a closed sourced piece of software again your Privium is closed source which is not a good idea for a security based...
Yes it is. Your privacy one, your open source one is not the privacy one can upgrade a contract, drain your account, downgrade the contract, and all you're going to see is a proof that EVM processed the state transition correctly. You have no idea why your account balance went down. Again, in order for you to know your account balance, you have to keep on pinging an RPC. You don't even have the state on your own node. Privium just writes some kind of a proof to Ethereum mainnet which you have no clue what that proof actually proves other than EVM acted correctly. And that's it. On Canton, what I would say to you is that in order for you to actually do a state change first of all you need to have multiple parties agree to a state transition. The issuer would be one of them. So already your point about a one out of one signature is a bit odd. But second of all, I would say if someone wants to change the smart contract, which I would assume on Privium the issuer has or the operator has that right if you want to do the proxy model of being able to upgrade software without... at least on Canton, what I would say is every user would know that there's a change to the smart contract because they are the ones that are actually validating the transaction. They're not looking through an RPC on some proof that they were not even participant to creating that proof. So again, first of all, your description is incorrect. And second of all, I would say that the attack vector on a Privium user not only is worse, the consequences are even more terrible than Canton.
So what happens on Canton when the issuer is compromised is it's not that any of the individual smart contracts that exist before gets corrupted but instead the issuer will just mint a huge amount of the token and inflate the token supply with the underlying asset being fixed. It means everyone is going to lose the corresponding proportion of the asset. They lose.
Well, what happened yesterday with Layer Zero and what happened last week with Parity was not that individual users were compromised. Let me just finish this. I was not interrupting you. But the asset was printed. There was an unauthorized inflation of the asset for Polkadot and for Kelp. So the attacker basically just minted a huge amount of assets for themselves and dumped on the market and inflated, it propagated for the market. This is unpreventable in Canton and not just unpreventable it's undetectable.
It's way worse than in public blockchains where there is a single canonical state that everyone can see. So what you describe about Privium is absolutely incorrect. Whenever you have a public change on any smart contract on Ethereum, it's going to be visible. Anyone will see what's happening in the block. It's impossible to hide. So like if something like that happened, it would be publicly visible. And we can talk about the consequences. What this means like we're serving institutions. They have very different requirements from the cypherpunks. They have other mechanisms to correct but you cannot hide the change of the smart contract. But in Canton you cannot prevent it. You're exposed to the same exact attack vector as what happened yesterday to Layer Zero and you cannot detect it because if this happens in a... so the way the attack unfolds is the issuer is compromised. They get a proposer or submitter who is also... basically the attacker just gets some asset to themselves. Then they go and make a submission to the issuer. The compromised server signs the submission and the attacker ends up with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of asset and then they slowly start propagating this through the system. Tell me how you prevent this.
So I just want to be clear. So first of all, real quick because you said that it's not closed source. Privium uses an open-source licensing model. The zkStack is fully open source and provides all components required to run a standard L2 chain. Period. Privium trademark adds closed source enterprise modules that enable private permissioned deployments for institutional environments.
This is correct. There is no contradiction. The protocol part is fully open. The protocol part is open and visible. What's closed source is the middleware that you run to control, to connect to your banking systems, to connect to your authorization systems and so on. They don't touch on the protocol in any way.
Well, seems like a stack that does privacy with closed source should enter...
The privacy, the protocol part, smart contracts, zero knowledge proof circuits, everything open source, fully open source.
Literally your writing says to provide privacy...
Literally I just explained what this means. It's a middleware that you use to configure the access of the users in a role-based account model.
Okay. And yeah, this episode isn't about Privium. So just...
No, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry, sorry. If I... I'm totally fine, but if a person who runs a chain that...
I think it's fair play. I think it's fair play. I think he gets a bunch of back...
Author of the claims about his... to say that Canton is not decentralized but Privium is run by a centralized party that gets to see everything and writes...
I don't care if it's decentralized or not.
I'm saying your properties that you advertise certain properties that you don't possess in your system. Your system is worse than public blockchains in terms of integrity, like containment of systemic risks, like in fact it's worse than the traditional systems. So what... it does not have the characteristics of a blockchain. So I would describe Canton as a mediated messaging network and from this perspective it has a role to play in the traditional finance. You know, there are some workflows that don't require a blockchain and I believe Canton is actually deployed in some of these workflows maybe like with Broadridge where it's essentially being used as a better database, a database with specific financial workflows that are more easily configurable and it has a value there. It's just not a blockchain and it does not offer the properties of a blockchain.
So again, I just want to take your attack vector. What prevents today from any stable coin provider if they got hacked to mint a billion dollars worth of stable coins on chain? How do you know that they got hacked?
You will immediately see the transactions happening like they...
They are allowed to mint coins, right?
The way... so the way they usually work... I'm replying, I'm replying. Can...
Can someone mint a billion dollars of stable coin on chain?
Cool. And they didn't know that.
I'm... look, I'm replying to the way they structure... we cannot talk about every issuer because they all have different procedures in place. But the way... so I'm not deeply familiar with how all of them operate. But I'm familiar with the industry-wide best practices and they run something like this. In exchanges you have hot wallets and cold wallets and you have different degrees of different permissions on what can be done with hot wallets like they usually have lower limits and then most of the assets are in cold wallets. I assume the issuers operate similar model. I'm not familiar with exactly how they structure this but there is a huge difference between the model.
One second, you wanted to attack Canton by saying the issuer got hacked. So, can we acknowledge that the issuer got hacked? Because you can't say like, oh, they run these great services and all of that stuff. I'm going with your claim, the issuer got hacked. So, now suddenly you're saying that the issuers are all very safe. Like, I'm just going with your model. Just go with me. The issuer got hacked. You started by saying the issuer got hacked on Canton. So, let's just say...
Sure. Fine. Fine. Fine. Depending on how the issuers are structured. If they have a single function mint which is operated by a single hot key on a hot server that's a really bad design of security for the issuer and I don't know who...
