Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool are talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal. But what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Ravindra Reddy installation. And I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been at it for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk. It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking.
Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much, Dr. Goenka, from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy. Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have ghost laws, dadas which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly when you have policies like the urban land sealing, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger, stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family. And my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi. And Shivika comes from Singapore, but they're both very happy living here. So, as far as we are concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends, how long it goes on for, and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours?
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies, we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi, specifically, he leads us and Sure.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy. You know, you're also in the retail business apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses. Are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But as far as we are concerned, yes we do realize that two or three months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story, it's about the great potential that India has. And yes, two months or three months or four months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there. But in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example the power distribution business it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business it doesn't impact us. In the music business it doesn't impact us. In the film production business it doesn't impact us. So you know having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about and our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit, our EBITDAs are about just over 8,000 crores to get to 20,000 crores. We have a complete and in place block-by-block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired and how you're trying to deal with this?
You know AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidates?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said, Dr. Goenka, about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40-50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next five-six years. And we've just started a solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanocarbon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still end up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. And you've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them, five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've hopefully we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention not all of it very good with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant. Why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened? So much chatter in terms of...
You know with Rishabh there has never been a tense situation ever.
Social media, social media, no? It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv Goenka punching bag now. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues. But Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena. Top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention all over. Say what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Out of course people upset or beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many morphed versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean for a person who's never really played cricket it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed. I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14, 15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores.
That's doing better than most of your businesses in terms of how the valuations have grown.
And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of it and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got... Now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity. Now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know, you compete on the field but you're friends off the field.
So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aiman and Satya. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know, it really is a sport, you will win some, you will lose some. And you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated, upset with the performance because beyond a point like in an Excel sheet you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do, here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know at the end of the day you are disappointed when results don't go your way but disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport so not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football?
This is in Kolkata's blood. This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
Hi guys.
Hello. How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll, winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy. This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also, Dr. Goenka, are very entrenched rivalries. Mohammadan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even. And that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So, so what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together, work together. We are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
Uh-huh. So, what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team? Because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So, how does Lucknow Super Giant start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Thank you for picking me. No, look, like, similar to Vin said, we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition, but in the end, they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management? How much is taken say by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
Management and owners. Winning mentality.
It wasn't that easy because these as you were saying are entrenched rivalries, deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked.
So you know Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled. And frankly you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences, you learn from mistakes and you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it, excepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know, frankly, Wisden is entitled to their views. As an Indian, I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds, but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How's it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. There's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target when you think your team is winning the IPL season?
You know I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17. In 2017 in the first five games we had won one, lost four. Then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence. Who's to say?
Fantastic. Never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time for NDTV.
Always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How is it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. It's not as... there's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target for when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17. In 2017 in the first five games we had won one lost four then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence, who's to say.
Fantastic, never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time, always a pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool are talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal. But what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Ravi Shankar installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk.
It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking. Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much, Dr. Goenka, from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy. Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have ghost laws, dadas which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family and my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi and Shivika comes from Singapore but they're both very happy living here. So as far as we are concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends? How long it goes on for and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours.
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi specifically, he leads us and sure.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and it is a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy. You know, you're also in the retail business apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses. Are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But as far as we are concerned, yes we do realize that 2 or 3 months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story, it's about the great potential that India has. And yes, 2 months or 3 months or 4 months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there. But in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example the power distribution business it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business it doesn't impact us. In the music business it doesn't impact us. In the film production business it doesn't impact us. So, you know, having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about and our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit. Our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores to get to 20,000 crores. We have a complete plan in place, block by block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired and how you're trying to deal with this?
You know AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidates?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said, Dr. Goenka, about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40-50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next 5-6 years and we've just started our solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still land up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. You've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've hopefully we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention not all of it very good with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant. Why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened? So much chatter in terms of...
Art situation ever? Really? Social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues. But Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena, top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Of course people are upset but beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean for a person who's never really played cricket it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14-15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores.
That's doing better than most of your businesses in terms of how the valuations have grown.
And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
But now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity, now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aman and Satyan. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know it really is a sport you will win some, you will lose some and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated, upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do, here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know at the end of the day you are disappointed when results don't go your way but disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport so not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football?
This is in Kolkata's blood. This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
Hello. How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll, winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy. This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also, Dr. Goenka, very entrenched rivalries. Mohammedan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even. And that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So, so what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together, work together. We are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
Uh-huh. So, what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team? Because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Um, thank you for picking me. No look, um, like, similar to what Vin said, we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition but in the end they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions do you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management? How much is taken say by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
Always expectation and fans.
It wasn't that easy because these, as you were saying, are entrenched rivalries, deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked.
So you know Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled. And frankly you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences. You learn from mistakes. And you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it. Accepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know, frankly, Wisden is entitled to their views. As an Indian I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How is it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. It's not as... there's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target for when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17. In 2017 in the first five games we had won one lost four then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence, who's to say.
Fantastic, never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time, always a pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool are talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal but what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Ravi Shankar installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk.
It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking. Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much, Dr. Goenka, from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy. Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have ghost laws, dadas which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family and my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi and Shivika comes from Singapore but they're both very happy living here. So as far as we are concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends? How long it goes on for and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours.
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi specifically, he leads us and sure.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and it is a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy. You know, you're also in the retail business apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses. Are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But as far as we are concerned, yes we do realize that 2 or 3 months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story, it's about the great potential that India has. And yes, 2 months or 3 months or 4 months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there. But in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example the power distribution business it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business it doesn't impact us. In the music business it doesn't impact us. In the film production business it doesn't impact us. So you know having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about and our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit. Our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores to get to 20,000 crores. We have a complete plan in place, block by block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired and how you're trying to deal with this?
You know AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidates?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40. So you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past, you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here, you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say, 'Give us a prompt. I mean, give us a lead on how he's done competitively.' And you get that.
A lot has been said, Dr. Goenka, about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40-50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next 5-6 years and we've just started our solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still land up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. You've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've hopefully we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention not all of it very good with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant. Why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened? So much chatter in terms of...
Art situation ever? Really? Social media. This is social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes, you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues but Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena, top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Of course people are upset but beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean for a person who's never really played cricket it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14-15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores.
That's doing better than most of your businesses in terms of how the valuations have grown.
And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
But now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity, now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aman and Satyan. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know it really is a sport you will win some, you will lose some and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated, upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do, here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know at the end of the day you are disappointed when results don't go your way but disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport so not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football?
This is in Kolkata's blood. This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
Hello. How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll, winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy. This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also, Dr. Goenka, very entrenched rivalries. Mohammedan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even. And that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So, so what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together. Work together, we are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
Uh-huh. So, what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team? Because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So, how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Um, thank you for picking me. Now, look, um, like, similar to what Vin said, we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition but in the end, they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions do you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management? How much is taken say by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
Always expectation and fans.
It wasn't that easy because these, as you were saying, are entrenched rivalries, deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked.
So you know Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled.
And frankly, you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences, you learn from mistakes, and you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it, excepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know, frankly, Wisden is entitled to their views.
As an Indian, I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds, but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How is it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. There's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target for when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17.
In 2017, in the first five games we had won one, lost four, then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence. Who's to say?
Fantastic, never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal, but what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Raja Ravi Varma installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk. It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking.
Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much Dr. Goenka from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy.
Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have ghost laws, dadas which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state, we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family. And my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi. And Shivika comes from Singapore. But they're both very happy living here. So as far as we're concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends, how long it goes on for, and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours?
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies, we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly, there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi, specifically, he leads us.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy.
You know you're also in the retail business apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses. Are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But as far as we are concerned, yes we do realize that two or three months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story, it's about the great potential that India has. And yes, two months or three months or four months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war, but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget, it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us, we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there, but in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example, the power distribution business, it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business, it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business, it doesn't impact us. In the music business, it doesn't impact us. In the film production business, it doesn't impact us. So you know, having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about and our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit. Our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores. To get to 20,000 crores we have a complete and in place block by block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said, we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired, how you're trying to deal with this?
You know AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean they are done by AI and at the end of the interview you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidate?
So that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said Dr. Goenka about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise, a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40, 50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next five, six years and we've just started a solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still end up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. You've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them, five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've hopefully, we know what we need to do. I think we're still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting, but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention, not all of it very good, with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant. Why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened? So much chatter in terms of...
It's social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv Goenka, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues. But Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena. Top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Of course people are upset but beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean for a person who's never really played cricket it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations. Since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14, 15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores.
That's doing better than most of your businesses in terms of how the valuations have grown.
And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of it and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
Now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity. Now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know, you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aman and Satya. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know, it really is a sport, you will win some, you will lose some, and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated, upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do, here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know at the end of the day you are disappointed when results don't go your way but disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport so not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football? This is in Kolkata's blood.
This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy.
This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also Dr. Goenka are very entrenched rivalries. Mohammedan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even and that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
We all stay together, work together, we are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
So what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Thank you for picking me. No look, similar to what he said, we're a very tight group and everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition but in the end they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management? How much is taken say by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
Management and winning mentality.
It wasn't that easy because these as you were saying are entrenched rivalries, deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked.
So you know Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled.
And frankly, you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences, you learn from mistakes, and you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it, excepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know frankly Wisden is entitled to their views.
As an Indian I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How is it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. There's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17.
In 2017 in the first five games we had won one lost four then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence who's to say.
Fantastic, never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal. But what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Raja Ravi Varma installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk. It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking.
Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much Dr. Goenka from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy.
Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have ghost laws, dadas which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state, we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family. And my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi and Shivika comes from Singapore. But they're both very happy living here. So, as far as we're concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends, how long it goes on for, and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours?
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies, we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly, there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi, specifically, he leads us.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy.
You know you're also in the retail business apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses. Are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But as far as we are concerned, yes we do realize that two or three months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story, it's about the great potential that India has. And yes, two months or three months or four months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us, we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there, but in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example, the power distribution business, it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business, it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business, it doesn't impact us. In the music business, it doesn't impact us. In the film production business, it doesn't impact us. So you know, having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about and our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit. Our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores. To get to 20,000 crores we have a complete and in place block by block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said, we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired, how you're trying to deal with this?
You know AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidate?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said Dr. Goenka about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise, a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40, 50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next five, six years and we've just started a solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still end up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. And you've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them, five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've hopefully, we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting, but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention, not all of it very good, with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant. Why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened? So much chatter in terms of...
It's social media. This is social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv Goenka, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes, you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues but Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena. Top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Of course people are upset but beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean for a person who's never really played cricket it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations. Since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14, 15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores.
That's doing better than most of your businesses in terms of how the valuations have grown.
And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of it and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
Now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity. Now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know, you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aman and Satya. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know, it really is a sport, you will win some, you will lose some, and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated, upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do, here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know at the end of the day you are disappointed when results don't go your way but disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport so not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football? This is in Kolkata's blood.
This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy.
This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also Dr. Goenka are very entrenched rivalries. Mohammedan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket, honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much, much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even. And that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So, what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together, work together. We are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
Uh-huh. So, what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team? Because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So, how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Um, thank you for picking me. Look, similar to what Manir said, we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition, but in the end, they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management? How much is taken, say, by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
It wasn't that easy because these, as you were saying, are entrenched rivalries. It's a deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked. So you know, Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled. And frankly, you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences, you learn from mistakes, and you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it, excepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know, frankly, Wisden is entitled to their views. As an Indian, I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds, but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How's it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. There's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17. In 2017, in the first five games we had won one, lost four, then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence. Who's to say?
Fantastic. Never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool are talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal. But what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Ravi Shankar installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk. It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking.
Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much, Dr. Goenka, from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy. Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have goonda laws, dadas, which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state, we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally, people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly, when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family and my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi and Shivika comes from Singapore, but they're both very happy living here. So as far as we are concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends? How long it goes on for and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours.
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies, we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly, there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi, or Narendra Modi specifically, he leads us and Sure.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and it is, a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy. You know, you're also in the retail business, apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses, are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But say as far as we are concerned, yes, we do realize that two or three months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story. It's about the great potential that India has. And yes, two months or three months or four months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war, but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget, it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward, the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us, we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there, but in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example, the power distribution business, it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business, it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business, it doesn't impact us. In the music business, it doesn't impact us. In the film production business, it doesn't impact us. So, you know, having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about. And our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit, our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores to get to 20,000 crores. We have a complete and in place block-by-block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said, we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired, how you're trying to deal with this?
You know, AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidates?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said, Dr. Goenka, about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise, a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid, prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40-50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next 5-6 years. And we've just started a solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still land up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes, we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. And you've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them, five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've, hopefully we've, we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul, if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention, not all of it very good, with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant, why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened, so much chatter in terms of...
Social media. This is social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv Goenka, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes, you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues but Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena, top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Out of course people upset or beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean, what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean, for a person who's never really played cricket, it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in, you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14, 15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores. And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of it and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
But now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity. Now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know, you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aiman and Satya. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know, it really is a sport. You will win some, you will lose some and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated or upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet, you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do. Here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know, at the end of the day, you are disappointed when results don't go your way. But disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport. So not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So, the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals and...
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting. There's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football?
This is in Kolkata's blood. This is in Kolkata's blood and now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You play football growing up?
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
Hello. How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll winning one championship after another.
Yeah, it is very good. Last two years we win the trophy. This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These also, Dr. Goenka, are very entrenched rivalries. Mohammedan Sporting, Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket, honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much, much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even. And that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So, what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together, work together, we are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
Uh-huh. So, what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team? Because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So, how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
Um, thank you for picking me. No, look, similar to what Manir said, that we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition, but in the end, they'll get there.
So how much of the decisions you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams and the management, how much is taken, say, by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
It wasn't that easy because these, as you were saying, are entrenched rivalries. It's a deeply competitive league. To be able to win again and again is an interesting code you've cracked. So you know, Mumbai Indians have done it in cricket. CSK have done it. I've said it before. I think Nita Ambani understands this better than anyone else. I try and follow her.
What are you learning from them?
You learn every day from everyone. But Nita has been remarkable. Her knowledge about the sport, her knowledge about her passion is unparalleled. And frankly, you learn from everyone. You learn every day. You learn from experiences, you learn from mistakes, and you grow every day. So it's a process and sport teaches you that you will win some, you will lose some. Enjoy the moments when you win. Don't let the defeats get you down.
So I see you're wearing the right kind of shoes. Can we see you kick a few balls with your boys?
I can certainly do it, excepting that I'm horrible at it.
Okay, let's go. Let's go find out.
Beyond just what you've done in India with football and cricket, you've also now taken this to South Africa, England. How is that working out? Because you know, you've seen what Wisden said recently. They're saying that India or BCCI is taking over world cricket and that's not a good thing.
You know, frankly, Wisden is entitled to their views. As an Indian, I feel very proud that India dominates cricket and the world of cricket. So our experience in South Africa has been very good. We've had one season with England so far in the hundreds, but this is going to be our first season of control and let's see how it goes. But it's great working with the Lancashire Club. They're wonderful.
How is it different from the IPL? What do you...
It's not as intense. There's not that much pressure.
So, you've set like you said business targets and objectives. You set a target when you think your team is winning the IPL.
You know, I had the Pune team in 2016 and 17. In 2017, in the first five games we had won one, lost four, then we went on to winning every game till the finals when we lost by one run to Mumbai. So we ourselves have a precedence. Who's to say?
Fantastic. Never say never. That's the fighting spirit required both in business and in sports. This has been a lot of fun. The weather could have been miserable for some reason because the gods knew we were shooting. They've kept it really delightful with Kolkata in April. This is not usually what I'd expect, but you've been a great sport as well. Thank you very much and I wish you all the very best. Thank you for taking our time.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
And all the best to all of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Hello and a warm welcome to NDTV's Walk the Talk. I'm Rahul Kanwal. I'm currently in Kolkata which is caught in the midst of an election frenzy. And as we hear the political parties stake their claims, I want to spend time talking about what West Bengal needs for a bright industrial future. Both the BJP and the Trinamool are talking a lot about new industrial policy in Bengal. But what really do the practitioners require on the ground? To get a sense of that, I'm currently at the RPSG house in Kolkata in front of this lovely Ravi Shankar installation and I have with me the scion of one of the longest serving industrial families in West Bengal. Their family has been here for the last 200 years. Dr. Sanjiv Goenka, welcome and thank you so much for taking our time for NDTV's Walk the Talk. It's an absolute pleasure to be here talking.
Always a privilege to be with you.
We're hearing so much, Dr. Goenka, from the political parties about what West Bengal needs when it comes to industry. You know, as the one family that's actually here in Kolkata, like a lot that have moved on to other parts of the country, if you were imagining a new industrial policy for your home state, you know, what are the kind of things you think the new government in West Bengal needs to keep in mind so Kolkata becomes competitive like a Bangalore or a Mumbai or a Gujarat?
The first thing really is consistency of policy. Not policies being changed every few years. Bengal doesn't have goonda laws, dadas, which were a feature of Bengal's past and that is something that's completely gone out of the system. Right? So those are not issues. But I think overall as a state, we need to believe that we can get to the top again. And I think somewhere we need to instill that sense of confidence and self-belief that Bengal is capable of getting back at the top.
We've seen in recent years, you know, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu even, you know, emerging states like Assam try and bring a lot of new industry to their states. What would it take for West Bengal to be able to be competitive when it comes to the Indian Federation?
Today, every state is vying for investments, right? So, it's about actually being a better place to invest than some others. So it's not too difficult to get a McKinsey or a BCG or Accenture to do a very quick analysis and say what is required. And fundamentally, people must believe that policies are going to be consistent. And frankly, when you have policies like the urban land ceiling, the only state to have it at this point in time, not the best thing to have around.
The other big challenge of course is migration of the youth. A lot of young Bengalis going to places like Mumbai, Bangalore, elsewhere working over there. How does one change that? You've got young children, relatively young children. For people their generation and younger to stay back and be part of a new Bengal dream rather than just take the first flight out and say it's just much easier for me to be working elsewhere.
You know, I can speak for my family and my son Shashwat and my daughter-in-law Shivika were both given the option to move to Bombay or Delhi and Shivika comes from Singapore, but they're both very happy living here. So as far as we are concerned, we are very happy to be domiciled in Kolkata as a family and happy being here.
You know, we're talking at a time when the world finds itself in the midst of the biggest oil shock, energy crisis, global economic uncertainty. How are conglomerates like yours dealing with the uncertainty around when this war ends? How long it goes on for and the ripple effects it has on companies like yours.
Undeniably there is an impact and those companies, we have one company where fuel is an important raw material and therefore it's a huge impact on that. But frankly, there is also confidence that somebody like Narendra Modi, or Narendra Modi specifically, he leads us and Sure.
Yes and no. Because while of course the government can try what it will and it is, a lot of this is frankly out of the government's control and therefore you're having to respond and react to actions of the Israeli side, the Americans, the Iranians which are having an impact on the Indian economy. You know, you're also in the retail business, apart from a whole host of other consumer-facing businesses, are you seeing that impact already in terms of consumers holding back on purchase?
I think there is some impact and people are wanting to conserve resources and capital. But say as far as we are concerned, yes, we do realize that two or three months will be challenging. But it's about this whole India story. It's about the great potential that India has. And yes, two months or three months or four months, who's to say, will impact us. But these two or three or four months cannot be defining in the career of a company. And as I said earlier, the confidence is that when you have Narendra Modi at the helm of affairs, he will make sure that India gets its due soon enough.
Dr. Goenka, there's never a good time for war, but this war comes at a particularly inopportune time from the Indian economy's perspective because post the budget, it just seemed that the Indian economy was poised for a takeoff in terms of capacity expansion, industrial production and the economy seemed in a good space. Do you see the consequences of the war being relatively short-term or do you think this could drag on for several years if not just for a few quarters?
I don't think it's going to be very long-term.
Not the war. I'm saying the consequences of the war.
The consequences also I don't think will be very long-term, but frankly, it's difficult to forecast how it's going to impact us on a medium-term basis. There is a short-term impact of course and it's going to impact everything in terms of the company's performances. But I think going forward, the faith in India, in the Indian consumer, in the Indian market, in the Indian ecosystem is so high that I think it's going to bounce back. And for us, we have one set of businesses which are impacted because they are based on fuel and therefore the prices are impacted. So therefore there is an impact there, but in most of our other businesses it's not really impacting us. For example, the power distribution business, it doesn't impact us. In the renewable energy business, it doesn't impact us. In the BPO business, it doesn't impact us. In the music business, it doesn't impact us. In the film production business, it doesn't impact us. So, you know, having a diversified portfolio is actually proving to be an advantage at this situation.
You'd announced a lot of capacity expansion, new industrial projects across the country from Uttar Pradesh to Gujarat, Rajasthan. Does the war and the uncertainty that it comes with, you know, push some of those plans back or are you just bashing on regardless?
We are going ahead. We've got about 72,000 crores of projects under implementation across Odisha, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Andhra. And we are going ahead completely. So they are in diverse fields but it's something that we are very excited about. And our target is that in the next four years, it was three, it's now become four because the war we believe would set us back by a bit, our EBITDA is about just over 8,000 crores to get to 20,000 crores. We have a complete and in place block-by-block action and that's what we monitor. And as I said, we might be a few months behind but we'll get there.
So let's talk a bit about the different components of that plan. I want to start with business process outsourcing, the BPO industry where you made an acquisition for a long while it seemed was doing very well and now of course there's the threat of AI and what this means for the BPO sector. So do you want to talk to our viewers about, you know, the threat that AI poses to the BPO industry in India and in the company that you've acquired, how you're trying to deal with this?
You know, AI is actually an opportunity. So I'll give you an example. It doesn't necessarily illustrate but it does to an extent. For example, all the HR interviews that we do now, all interviews that we do are not physical, they are not personal, they are done by robots. I mean, they are done by AI and at the end of the interview, you get a complete analysis.
How do you know the AI is not biased or how do you know the AI doesn't pick out the candidates?
So, that is where you need to then eventually the AI will shortlist maybe three candidates. You meet the three and those you still do physically but you're no longer meeting 30 or 40 so you're saving on those costs. A lot of the routine legal documents are now happening through AI.
Are you hiring better because of artificial intelligence being involved in the process in a big way?
I think you're getting much better research. In the past you sort of called up a few people and took references. Here you're getting a complete analysis of that candidate's performance over the last 15, 20 years or 10 years as the case might be. And then you can ask AI and you can ask Claude and say give us a prompt, I mean give us a lead on how he's done competitively and you get that.
A lot has been said, Dr. Goenka, about the impact of this war on the long-term energy consumption patterns of consumers across the world. Are you going to see, you think, a big pivot from fossil fuels to more renewable energies just as a consequence of this war accelerating the trends that we already seeing in the past?
I think whether as a consequence of the war or otherwise, a huge proportion of energy consumption will shift to renewable, whether it's solar, wind, hybrid, prompted by battery, the combination. I think that's going to happen and you will probably see say India maybe 40-50% of the total energy consumption over a period of time shifting to renewable and green energy. And that's a trend that we are ourselves embracing and we have a plan of about 10 GW of capacity over the next 5-6 years. And we've just started a solar module plant in Rajasthan. We are working on a complete solar cell plant in Uttar Pradesh and Odisha. So I think you're going to see a new energy. We're looking at getting into battery. We've started with battery components and our plan for nanosilicon actually goes on stream in the next few weeks. So I think there is a lot happening overall and there's a lot happening at RPSG.
But a lot of the critical components involved in the renewable ecosystem are largely dominated by the Chinese supply chains. How do you think a country like India should try and overcome that given how late we are as players in this game?
You know, one thing that I've learned is that you can be a late comer, but it doesn't mean that you've lost out. So, for example, the IPL has taught me that you can lose your first five games, but you can still land up qualifying for the playoffs. So, it's a learning. So yes, we are late but I think we are catching up very fast as a country, as a nation and so you will see India at the forefront of the energy transition.
That's a good segue to, you know, all the acquisitions that you've done in the field of sports and I'm told that there are a whole bunch of Mohun Bagan players who are all teed and kitted up waiting to meet you. So, let's just go and say hello to them.
Shall we?
We've now moved to the residence of Dr. Sanjiv Goenka. I see some of the Mohun Bagan players there practicing. They're doing some drills. Now, this finds you in a very interesting situation. And you've got a champion football team, reigning champion since you bought them, five times they won. And you've got the Lucknow Super Giants who have been struggling and I can see you getting visibly frustrated with their performance.
Well, I think in football we've, hopefully we've, we know what we need to do. I think we are still not quite there in cricket. Last year it was our bowling that needed fixing. So we fixed our bowling and retained the batting but this year we still have to fire. So hopefully.
So what's the football code that you've cracked which you haven't cracked yet when it comes to cricket?
Rahul, if I knew it I would have implemented it.
But you know that you've been in the center of so much attention, not all of it very good, with, you know, what happened with KL Rahul earlier, now Rishabh Pant, why don't you tell our viewers what in the world happened, so much chatter in terms of...
Social media. This is social media. It gets them views, right? So Sanjiv Goenka, punching bag. And one incident doesn't define a person. And when you make mistakes, you learn and you learn not to repeat them. So I think the dressing room is happy, the team is happy, the environment is happy. I don't think those are issues but Sanjiv Goenka has become a very convenient punching bag. You get views if you say Goenka, views you say.
But it's an interesting phenomena, top corporate owning a cricket team and therefore naturally so much the center of attention. All over, see what happens at Kolkata Electric doesn't really matter to the public. Out of course people upset or beyond that doesn't matter. Any step, misstep, hand gesture, movement on and off the cricket field then becomes a national headline.
Yeah, excepting that I'm now learning that even, you know, I am a person who naturally talks with gestures so I'm now learning to keep my hands behind, you know, because everything and you can take an angle out of context. You can, there are so many mocked versions, there are so many AI generated versions. But that's it, I mean, what can I do? I can only be myself and at the end of the day I'm fairly clear of being me.
How do you want to respond to all those critics or naysayers who think that you're interfering in sporting affairs or telling your cricketers how to play? You know, because this has been doing the rounds. How would you address this concern? What do you make of it?
I mean, for a person who's never really played cricket, it would be foolish to tell my cricketers how to play, right? I have a team of experts and it's a big team who does that. I want the team to do well, I want them to succeed, I'm passionate about the team, I'm passionate about cricket but I don't understand cricket the way an expert does and it would be stupid on my part to go and give cricketing lessons to the cricketers.
But where you've done well is in terms of how the business has grown in valuation since you bought it because when you came in, you came in at the highest price point at that time and lots of questions were asked about inflated valuations since then it's more than doubled. So forget how the team has done on the cricket field, off the cricket field you've done quite well and congratulations for that.
Thank you. I think I'm very happy. I've invested 1,800 crores to date and the values today would probably be 14, 15, I don't know, whatever thousand crores. And I've always maintained that for passion you invest so much only, the rest is business. And so this has been one of my best business appreciations in the shortest possible time and I was fairly confident of it and that's why I invested and I'm very happy that Rajasthan and Bangalore got.
But now there's a lot of clutter. Earlier this was the rarity. Now all the big corporate teams, all the big corporate houses. So you're competing for business and you're competing on the field as well.
You know, you compete on the field but you're friends off the field. So yesterday I was having a good chat with Aiman and Satya. There have been instances where Sajjan Jindal and I have watched the Delhi-Lucknow game together and you know, it really is a sport. You will win some, you will lose some and you know there are good relations all around.
But what I can tell from the outside is that if the team's not doing well, is it getting to you? Like are you getting angry or frustrated or upset with the performance? Because beyond a point, like in an Excel sheet, you can, you know, tell the CFO what to do or the CEO what to do. Here you really beyond a point can't do very much.
You know, at the end of the day, you are disappointed when results don't go your way. But disappointment does not mean anger. And it's a sport. So not every day is going to be a winning day and it's a question of getting that rhythm. We have good players. The batting lineup has not found its rhythm yet this season, but the day they will, they will then run because last year they were the highest scoring batting lineup in the IPL ever.
So the trolls are organic or you think they're being manufactured by rivals?
They're manufactured not by rivals but by vested interests. I think we know who they are, but it's no point talking about who they are.
It's interesting, there's a full Bollywood film or an OTT series to be made over there. What happens on and off then?
You can contribute to getting this right. Anyway, the champions are there. Let's just go spend some time talking to them. Why did you enter football?
This is in Kolkata's blood. And now it's getting to be a part of my blood.
You played football growing up.
I played football. I was never good at it. But the more I get involved or the more I see this team, the more I feel that there is potential for youngsters in the sport to do well.
Hi guys. How are you doing? You seem to be on quite a roll winning one championship after another.
Yeah, very good. Last two years we won the trophy. This season's a little bit closer, but we are confident that we're going to win the trophy again.
How's it been for you coming to India and playing in the Indian League?
It's been good, enjoyable. You know, the most important is the fans, the passion, and we have a good team, good group of boys and we've been successful.
These are also, Dr. Goenka, very entrenched rivalries. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal. So it's a bit like cricket in that sense.
It's much more intense than cricket honestly. Mohun Bagan, East Bengal is much, much more intense. And there are fans here who will wear maroon and green and they will not have anything red and yellow in their homes even, and that's the kind of passion that exists for Mohun Bagan.
So what's Mohun Bagan doing right, Manvir, that the other teams are not? Why do you think you're winning championship after championship?
Because we all stay together, work together. We are giving everything on the pitch and we got the result.
So what is your advice to Dr. Goenka in terms of what he should be telling his cricket team because he's waiting for his cricket team to do what you guys are doing. So how does Lucknow Super Giants start doing what you guys have been doing here in Kolkata?
I'm thankful for picking me. No, look, similar to what Manvir said, we're a very tight group. And everything takes time. We've seen some of the games, they're playing well. It's a tough competition, but in the end, they'll get there.
So, how much of the decisions you think are taken on the football field by the pros, by the teams, and the management? How much is taken say by corporate?
It's a good question for the captain.
