I order exactly one thing from Starbucks. An iced green tea. 16 ounces. Don't know what it is in Starbucks speak. Unsweetened. That's it.
That's it. Green tea. What about you?
My go-to is a little complicated.
Of course it is. Of course it is.
Now, if it's like a fun day, like a sort of treat, I kind of got hooked on the raspberry cold foam. So, like an iced coffee with the raspberry cold foam. And you're really making a face of judgment at me right now.
This is by Design from the Fast Company Podcast Network. I'm Liz Stinson.
Our guest today is the man who's changing how you get your morning coffee.
That's right. We'll share my conversation with Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol in his first public interview since taking the job a year ago.
But first, the news. So, first up, the Nike Skims collection is finally here. Mark, the other day I was at the gym and I looked around and I noticed that there were, you know, largely two kinds of gym people at my gym. There were those like myself who were wearing, I hate to admit it, matching Lululemon pants and tops. Then there was this other camp who had on, I don't know, like cool Calvin Klein bras and vintage cut off shirts. And it really drove home this idea that we are in an interesting moment when it comes to athleisure where I think the taste is changing a little bit. And our first news item is a really great example of this. And I'm talking about the launch of Nike Skims. People have been waiting for this collab for a really long time. The partnership was announced this past February and they were aiming to get the collection out last spring, but it was delayed due to production issues, but it's here now and people are excited. And as our resident fashion host, that's what I'm calling you now, Mark. I'm curious for your reaction.
Fashion host, Nike aficionado, for sure. I would say that for the most part my initial reaction when I just loaded up the lookbook was okay like this is definitely Skims, right? You have a lot of the colorways, you have a lot of those sort of cuts. So, a lot of it was just like Nike Skims as you might expect. What really pleasantly surprised me was probably not actually just the main line, but a few individual garments. There was this oversized track jacket that felt like you could, you know, go for a jog and then use your member pass at the MoMA really fast and it'd be fine. There were these really oversized almost patent leather looking pants, very like, you know, Y2K kind of Matrix styling, but there's only a little bit of that. And so I'm really curious when we look at like the next season release and after that, like how much they're going to lead into that like fashion expression versus that sort of core workout gear. But what did you think? Is this going to replace Lululemon?
I'm not sure that I'm a Nike Skims type of girl, unfortunately.
Well, you know, it does have a flavor of shapewear. It does feel a little bit Lululemon, but cooler, you know, and I just don't think it's the vibe of my gym. Like, I'm just reading the room. It's not really something that I think makes a lot of sense for where I live. If I lived in Tribeca, maybe. I don't know. I was going to say I, you know, I walked around Manhattan on a beautiful day after our innovation fest and so, you know, everybody's out working out and like this is very much of that really clean sort of body advertising aesthetic of that microculture.
Yeah. But you know what I liked about at least the marketing materials is that they showed women exercising and that's really cool, right? Like they had all of these famous athletes in their campaign. Serena Williams, they had college athletes wearing these things. And I think what they're trying to communicate is this is fashion, but it's also something that you're intending to wear to actually exercise. I don't know what that's actually going to look like in reality where these people are going to be wearing a pair of pants that also has like a belt clip on it. That just doesn't really read cycling class to me, but I might be wrong about that.
There's a bit of a technical wear flare, right, that Skims got with Nike. It's almost like part of the Nike ACG line or something like that was infused with it. And I like that little bit of edge on it. I think it is a nice counterpoint to Lululemon. I don't know that it's actually as functional necessarily as it is in some of like the elite technical wear out there, but I'm curious.
Well, I think what we're seeing here is what any fashion brand is trying to do. This is their chance to say this is our perspective. This is who we are. What's going to sell is very different than what they're going to put lead in their campaign, right? Like because they're trying to communicate a perspective, a fashion perspective from the outset. So, I get it. Like those are two different goals. I think they're probably going to look at what sells over the course of a year and use that as a guide. But I'm seeing this as a bigger trend in athleisure, right? So, Alo, the yoga company, recently launched these. I believe it was three bags. Really expensive. They ranged from like $1,200 to over 2,000. And these are bags that you're not even going to wear to the gym, right? So, this was Alo's way of saying, 'We're a fashion brand now. We want to go high market. We don't want to have a store in the outlet mall, right? Like, we're trying to reach a different type of person, which by the way, Lululemon has lots of stores in outlet malls. But Lululemon is also facing headwinds. People are just really tired of the style. I think that it's just a little played. And Lululemon itself has sort of admitted as such. So I don't think we're off base saying that. So the Nike Skims positioning is really interesting to me because, you know, it wants to be gear you can run in but also go on coffee runs in. And to your point, it's just slightly edgier than what we might expect from the other athleisure brands on the market right now.
Totally. And you know I think if we look at athleisure it's been popular for what like 15ish years and a lot of the aesthetics are a bit unchanged and so I do think there's a moment here just with any trend cycle that it's established but like now what right like how do we move that aesthetic conversation forward and I think we're starting to see it and you know clearly this is really important for Nike you know Nike is a mega super profitable company but at the same time they're sort of not profitable enough for Wall Street which is you know a repeated kind of thing we've been hearing, but a big open market to them is appealing more to women. And you know, I think there's been a lot of arguments is Nike Skims pushing sort of sex appeal over performance was a big narrative when it first came out. But I would just say about Skims, like this is a beloved brand either way. And it does feel like there's a large Venn diagram for them to play together.
You can do both. You can be both.
I'll report back when I wear my first Nike Skims to my boxing class.
So, our next news item is something that some of you might be looking at at this very moment. We're talking about Liquid Glass. It's Apple's big UX update to its operating systems, and it just hit phones, computers, iPads, if you decide to not opt out of it.
Liquid Glass is Apple's big thesis on the future of what its user interface is. At the core is this liquid glass metaphor. And the idea is that many elements on your screen are now made of a semi-transparent glass that kind of distorts light and at the same time can sort of reshape itself to larger or smaller menus for various contexts.
Yeah. So, if any of you are habitual listeners, you'll know that we talked about this in our first episode when Apple originally announced Liquid Glass. But over the last few months, we've seen Apple testing its thesis through beta releases and these really subtle iterations where they, you know, would tune the transparency up and down just to kind of get a sense of where the sweet spot was for people. But now that it's here, people really do have thoughts on this. And Mark, you've done a ton of reporting on this topic and recently talked with several user experience experts about Liquid Glass. And so I want to know what are people saying?
Yeah, I mean I think anyone who's in human factors and really like thinking about how the brain processes information is just really disappointed in Liquid Glass. I think that's the long and short of it. I talked to about half a dozen experts and their consensus was that Liquid Glass is somewhere between mildly disappointing and just like outright broken. It's interesting because you can deactivate Liquid Glass through accessibility settings, right? You can basically say like, 'Hey, make the glass completely opaque. Make the background really dark and you know you can read it relatively okay but you're also just getting rid of the entire glass metaphor when you do that right it's like you have the liquid and not the glass so glass essentially becomes like a marketing tool for Apple that is divorced from its actual OS and you know talking to human factors experts they say like if you're on the furthest end of the spectrum where you're using a voiceover reader for your whole interface this doesn't affect you, but it does affect an older adult who has macular degeneration. It affects somebody who has ADHD. Like all these people are going to have struggle more and more to actually like read what's on the screen at any given moment.
Right. One of the sources in your piece was talking about how her older father is going to look at this and be like, 'No, no, no. I'm going back to Samsung.' And that's the worst possible thing that Apple could hear.
That's about the worst outcome. I mean the other thing was Google is respecting human factors a little bit more than Apple and that's also sort of not a great thing to hear. So it's not done app to app Liquid Glass still feels very different. I think they're really struggling with information hierarchy. They're struggling with how the menus are going to shrink and grow together. I think they're still tuning what the glass actually is and how it will function in various contexts. But basically there's a lot of work left to do. This doesn't feel finished. Doesn't feel polished, right?
But it is notable that this is really meant to be Apple's big UX bit as it moves into the AI era. And you know, the thinking here is that we're going to need a more flexible and transparent interface that can adapt to its context. But as you wrote in your piece, the liquid part, which shows up as these stretchable, reshapable buttons and animations, that's a really interesting idea, right? It's a more fluid interface than the static one we've had for so long. But there are issues with the glass part. And the other thing is that Apple's also tinting the glass in various colors, even just aesthetically the way that works. Like some people are just like, I don't know, like I don't know. I'm really on board for that. The other thing is that every developer kind of has to learn how to master this too. And so Apple is in the process of doing that very publicly, right? Like we're basically seeing public experimentation on a platform with over a billion people on it. But next up is essentially going to be the challenge of every developer figuring out exactly how they tune Glass, which elements they use within their own apps so that they feel cohesive to one another.
Yeah, I feel like Apple right now has two camps. People who are like Apple is past its glory days. It is no longer a design-led company, which is something that you wrote over a year ago, Liz. And then there are people who still are really buying into this, right? Earlier this month, Apple had a presentation where it launched its new iPhones. One of those iPhones is called the iPhone Air. It's just this ultra thin iPhone that the whole idea around it is that it's just a thinner iPhone, right? It's still as big, it's just thinner. And I saw a tweet from Sam Altman that was just praising it. And then I saw a million other tweets that were like, 'Who needs this? Who's asking for a thinner phone?' And that's my question. Who is asking for a thinner phone? I want a smaller phone.
No, I mean the other funny thing is I read this one post that was like the camera of it still sticks out a ton, right? Like the whole camera and all the processing units in that. It's like an engineering marvel, but it's really wide. And someone's like, 'Yeah, I mean, the iPhone Air is that thick.' Similarly to like, 'My waist is this small if I measured at the neck.' And that just kind of ended me.
Yeah, that's a burn of a metaphor right there. Apple has continually reinvented the way that we interact with personal technology. And I do think that there is room for making wrong decisions and still coming out on top, right? I think that we're going to see how the iPhone Air sells. We're going to see if there's a market there. I think it's sort of a misguided like gadget for gadgets sakes, even though some people are saying that like this is going to lead to a foldable phone. So maybe it is lading up to something. But don't count Apple out. Obviously, it's the most successful hardware company in the entire world, and I think what they're doing is still going to be a signal to other technology companies of where things are heading.
Finally, Amazon was in court last week for a suit filed by the Federal Trade Commission, and Amazon has since agreed to pay $2.5 billion in settlement to Prime customers for deceptive UX. Back in 2023, the FTC accused Amazon of using UX dark patterns to both get 40 million people signed up for Amazon Prime unintentionally and then lock them in to stay through a wild maze of buttons and screens that Amazon itself nicknamed after Homer's 16,000-line epic, calling it the Iliad flow. Mark, can you break down the FTC's claims against Amazon?
Yeah, sure. So, the name sort of says it all. The FTC alleged that for years, Amazon used all sorts of tricky UX tactics to get people to sign up for automatically renewing Prime memberships. And once they did sign up, Amazon made it really hard for people to cancel. So hard, in fact, that they gave this flow the name that you just said, they called it the Iliad flow, but I really prefer the FTC's rebrand, which it laid out in court documents. They were calling it Prime's four-page, six-click, 15-option Iliad flow.
That's just good headlining, FTC. I gotta hand it to you. You got a job.
Yeah, really descriptive. So, I'm just going to briefly give you a taste of what this looks like. First of all, it's really hard to find anything on Amazon. Have you ever tried to cancel one of your automatic subscriptions because you just like already had too many paper towels in your closet?
Yes, 100%. And that's just like anytime I subscribe and save, I'm like, how many tens of thousands of dollars am I actually going to spend on this by the time I'm 80 years old? Right.
Exactly. Well, anyway, cancelling Prime is even harder than that. So, first you had to find the page where you could start the cancellation process. And once you found it, the page was a mess. It was filled with hyperlinks and at the bottom, Amazon gave people three options. So, there was a button to remind you later, to cancel. You could cancel at a later point just in case. Exactly. There was a button to keep your benefits and then there was another button to continue the cancellation process.
The keep your benefits button is hilarious because you can just close it, right? But they're like, double down. Repledge your soul to Amazon right now.
So, you know, one would think that you could just simply offer the cancellation button right then and there, but no, no, no. Anyone who wants to continue to cancel has to land on another page with exclusive offers that are trying to convince you to stay on again. And then the exact same button options. So, if you click continue to cancel again, then you get to the last step of this like extremely winding journey. It's a page with five buttons. Five buttons. The last of which lets you choose end now. Just like a stark end now. So interesting and probably unsurprisingly, this worked for a while. The FTC said that in 2017, this flow led to a 17% drop in Prime membership cancellations.
Oh my gosh, that's such a large figure for anything in UX, right? Like that was a home run of evilness. So, it was really working for Amazon obviously until it didn't because now Amazon is paying a lot of money. But what I think is really interesting here is that I was reading this in the Times that you could get up to $51 if you qualify for the settlement, which like doesn't even cover...
That's not even a year of Prime.
Exactly. It's not even half of a year of Prime.
I mean, that's the thing. So, the settlement is $2.5 billion, right? I think Amazon in revenue makes about $40 billion in Prime subscriptions every year. Give or take a few billion.
Give or take a few billion. I think it was closer to 44 billion in 2024.
So 44 billion in 2024. So like on one hand this is one of those absolutely massive settlements and then on the other hand it really doesn't kind of affect or move the needle of anything in a significant way. In many ways, the biggest update is that the FTC is just forcing Amazon to update its interface with a simpler way to cancel. And I think, you know, moving forward, that'll make hopefully a significant difference for all customers using Amazon service. I don't know. What do you think?
Well, I think the reality is that it's not going to have a huge dent in Amazon's financials. What it is potentially going to do is be a slap on the wrist for other bad actors in this space.
Exactly. It's a precedent. It's a big precedent. And I think we're yet to see how other businesses are going to heed this decision. Are they going to rethink the way that they design their own flows? That's a big outstanding question. We'll see how much this has a ripple effect, but I'm hoping that this is really going to benefit consumers. I think it's probably to your point a really good thing that all of those legal teams inside companies looking at mitigating risk across a product will start hopefully auditing some of these systems right like auditing some of this dark UX out of these workflows.
Well this is just generally the way companies do business right now you know these tricks work as a way to boost the bottom line and so a lot of companies have sort of followed suit will they continue to do so I don't know.
You know if anything else like we need a check and balance system with some of these UX practices and this seems like some small step to getting there.
All right, that's the news for this week. We'll be back with Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol.
This week we've got Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol on the show. This was a conversation that Mark did solo on stage earlier this month at the Fast Company Innovation Festival. I was there and it was really fun to see Brian get caught off guard a little bit. This guy is a consummate CEO. Really candid when talking about how he's thinking about turning Starbucks around. So without any further ado, here's Mark's interview with Brian Niccol recorded live on September 16th.
No matter what your feelings are about Starbucks, I think in your heart of hearts, and certainly my heart of hearts, there was a time that Starbucks was the best. And I don't know that we're going to agree on what that year was, but whatever it was, Brian wants to bring you back to it, right? And I think that's really the core of his Back to Starbucks plan, his Back to Starbucks strategy. You know, since taking over the position last year, he is leading a design-led turnaround for Starbucks, reskinning stores, bringing back seats, rethinking sort of back of house service. But I do have one little confession, which was when Brian and I met for this story, you see the cover story, it's floating around here. I said, 'Brian, I'll admit when you took the position, I wasn't sure you were the guy for the job,' which is always the best way to start a chat, right?
But you know, that's because his bona fides were really the top guy in the restaurant industry, right? He came from Taco Bell where he taught us all to live mas, right? He launched an app there. He turned that company around. He went to Chipotle, which is a very different company. And this is like Chipotle is very analog driven. And he installed screens, a second line for making burritos, and brought them new efficiency, brought them an app, upgraded their app significantly, and turned Chipotle around. And what I said was, Brian, well, here's the thing. Starbucks has the best app already.
Right. Like, and I think what we really got into quickly was that Starbucks to have a design turnaround really need to rethink the entire infrastructure.
Yeah, that's right. You know, and first of all, great to be here with everybody. Good to be with you again. You know, look, the Starbucks strategy of Back to Starbucks is all about ultimately getting to the place of being the best of Starbucks again. And if you think about what makes, I think, Starbucks special is how you feel when you're in a Starbucks. When it's truly a community coffee house, it truly is the third place. I think it is our point of difference and it's why people fell in love with Starbucks. It's why I fell in love with Starbucks, you know, 20 years ago, when kind of we had the first Starbucks come to the little town I was in just outside of Cincinnati. And, you know, I think there's no reason why we can't have that today. I actually think people want it more than ever. I know digital and AI and the ability to connect and get bits of information in all forms or fashion are like faster and easier than ever before. But I think nothing beats the good old-fashioned sit down with a friend, sit down with a family member, sit down for a job interview, face to face over a cup of coffee, it never can be replaced. And so I think when we do it right, you know, there's nobody better. And I firmly believe the best days of Starbucks are still in front of us. And I've had the opportunity to travel around the world and experience our coffee and the community coffee house around the world. And it transcends cultures. It transcends borders. It really is, you know, I think the best of humanity when you get people together around a table in a safe place over a cup of coffee where you can, you know, I really do believe it's important to get these ceramic mugs back, too, because there is something to this mug hug, when you get your warm cup of coffee. And, you know, we want all those little moments to be back again. I think we talked about this, you know, we're designing a new mug, we're designing a new seat, we're doing these coffee house uplifts because I do believe the customer experience, the aesthetic of that community coffee house is really important.
I mean, it seems like in an age when everything is basically digital and convenience dominates that it's no longer a distinguishing feature for your brand.
I think all those things are just category entries, right? It's look, we got to have access through the app. We got to be quick. We got to be convenient. We need to have drive-throughs. I think the thing that separates us is that coffee house moment. And whether you're walking into a coffee house to just grab your cup and go, I think it's important that you walk into a coffee house. You know, I mean, we've all been in those places where we've gotten to-go food. And if you walk into a place and it's empty and soulless, you don't feel great about that to-go order. If the place has a soul, a connection, even if it's a to-go order, you feel much better about that to-go order. And I think the same is true for Starbucks. I mean that's part of the business argument here, right? That basically upgrading the physical space will actually increase digital orders and sort of other things along those lines.
Absolutely. And look, the other thing too is there was a lot of feedback from our partners on what it took to run the Starbucks because now you have three key access points, right? You got the drive-thru, mobile order pickup, and now you have the cafe or the counter experience for the cafe. And you know, we've worked on technology and process and flow and staffing to ensure that our teams are set up where they can do all three of those access points successfully. And some of the feedback I was getting initially is they're not set up for success. And so you might have heard us talk about this Green Apron service model that we just started to roll out. You know, we're investing $500, $600 million into additional labor into the stores, but it's purposeful. It's purposeful to make sure that every transaction is more than a transaction. It's actually a moment of connection both at the time you order and at the time you hand it off. And we say it starts and ends with the Green Apron partner because the great orders start with a barista experience and they also end with a barista experience. So whether that's a mobile order coming in and we hand the coffee to you or if you're going through the drive-thru. I mean some of the best experiences I've had just before I was flying out here to New York. Swung by one of our stores to go through the drive-thru. The woman was terrific. Super engaging at the order board and then really engaging when she handed me my coffee on my way out. She might have been a little bit surprised it was me, but you know, nonetheless, she was terrific.
I imagine like the most frightening and exciting customer they could have.
I don't know why I actually think I'm a good customer. So I want to rewind a bit which is you know you start last year you come into the role and tell me what drove you crazy.
Yeah. So well there were a few things that drove me crazy which was so I had left Chipotle and I had about a month, month and a half before I was starting at Starbucks and the thing I did was I started going to Starbucks with a lot more frequency because I was kind of between jobs and I heard that's kind of one of the things you do is you go hang out at Starbucks.
Exactly. Right. Write a novel. Yeah. But, you know, when I went, what I quickly realized is we had done some things that basically did not deliver on having a great in-cafe experience. You know, I walked into a store, outlets were covered or outlets weren't working. There weren't enough seats. It was clear that we had prioritized a waiting area for mobile order over solving how do we better sync up the timing of when you order your drink and when you show up for your drink so that you don't need as big of a waiting area and we can put those seats back in. You know, I also saw it was very transactional as opposed to giving our baristas or our partners the time to create connection and also do their craft correctly consistently. And so when I started to see these things and it was really interesting, there was one customer, he happened to be in front of me and you know he didn't realize I was the CEO. A lot of people at this time didn't know I was the CEO. And you know he ordered a brewed cup of coffee from our Clover Vertica machine. And our barista turns around, makes the brewed cup of coffee, and then sends it down the line behind lattes and everything else. And the gentleman's literally getting anxious. He you can tell he just wants his cup of coffee like right now. You know, just hand it back to me. He's good to go. And instead, we were sending it down the line. And you know, so I just asked him, I was like, 'Hey, does this happen to you all the time?' He's like, 'All the time.' Yeah.
He goes, 'And you know what would be really helpful?' He's like, 'I can put my own milk in my coffee.'
Like the good old days. And you know what I found out was we had removed the condiment bar during COVID and we never put it back. And we had also changed the process of brewed coffee to go down the line as opposed to just hand it back to you at POS and allow...
It went down the line because the barista was the one to pour in the oat milk or whatever milk...
Sugars and inevitably people are very, you know your coffee is very personal. So to tell somebody how much milk to put in or how much sugar to put in, it's very hard to get it correct when the person doesn't see what's going on. So, we also had a scenario where we're redoing these coffees a lot. Or worse yet, I saw somebody hand somebody their cup of coffee, a cup with some milk, and then a cup full of sugars. And then this person's got now three cups, you know, and is looking like, well, where am I supposed to go with this because we don't have the seat for him to sit down to go put the cream and sugar into his coffee. So, you know, those were little things where I'm like, gosh, this is really frustrating and there's no reason for it to happen. And it made it hard on our partner. It made it hard on our customer. And these were simple things to solve. And hopefully you've seen that already go into effect where now we have the condiment bars back. When you do order brewed coffee, they should hand it to you right at the order point.
Let me pause you here though because yeah, on paper it's simple enough to, you know, put the milk back on the condiment bar. On the back end though, you stop charging more for different milks, right? Alternate dairy milks or whatever, right?
And that's a relatively big decision, but you made it pretty quickly.
Yeah. Well, that was another thing that I was hearing from customers. And I guess probably the point to go back to your question. When I first started, I always take the approach of what are customers saying, what are our partners saying, what's working? What's getting in the way? And then, you know, it's a really easy list to create to say like, okay, if we just fix these things to eliminate these pain points for both our customers and our partners, I think we're going to make a lot of progress. And you know, one of the pain points was why is it, you know, regular milk, there's no upcharge, but there's an upcharge when I want oat milk. And, you know, I was kind of listening to it. I'm like, I think they're right as a customer. That would not delight me. So, we made the decision to stop charging for alt milk. And with doing that, that also freed us up to then have the right milks on the condiment bar. Because what I found out was one of the weird little barriers was, well, we wanted to charge for the alt milk, so we didn't want to put it on the condiment bar.
Yeah. I mean, I saw the hacks where people like, get the espresso, pick up the oat milk, dump half the container, kind of like screw everybody, but also save a dollar.
Yeah. Well, what's so interesting is like you see these compensating behaviors and you're like, this is really silly. We can make it very simple and the simplicity actually works for everybody. And so, we made that decision. We put the condiment bars back in. I mean, the one thing I had to get comfortable with at Starbucks is, you know, and if my team was here, I'm kind of a broken record of like, I want to do it faster. Why can't we do it faster? But I found that in my time at Chipotle. I found that in my time at Taco Bell. I've always, I guess, been a little bit impatient, especially when you get clear feedback of what you know you need to go do. And the scale of Starbucks resulted in like we had to track down, you know, hundreds of thousands of these cars. And that took a little bit of time. So I couldn't get it done.
They were gone. I wonder where the cars went. That's a good documentary in that.
I'm guessing people's closets are full of cars. I don't know. I don't know.
You're changing store design quite a bit, right? So there were all sorts of store designs before. Moving forward, there will be sort of three core store designs. I would say small, medium, and large. That's probably the wrong framing.
Yeah, I was corrected. It would be, you know, tall, grande, and venti.
Yeah. And you know, the tall in particular is going to be a new format store we haven't really seen before, and it's modeled after a classic espresso bar.
Yeah. So, the idea is in a small format, you can still have a great barista connection and still have a couple seats. Like, you've all experienced these places, right, as you've traveled around the world. The traditional espresso bar is actually though just a walk up to the bar, get a shot of espresso, maybe have a few words, and out you go. I do believe we still need to have some atmosphere where if you want to sit down and have your drink, you can still have a seat. So they'll be small formats primarily driven towards the idea of like hey I want to get my coffee maybe just have a minute or two with the barista and then move on or a minute or two with others that are in the store but also provide you know six to eight seats where if you want to sit down you can sit down. And then obviously when you go to the medium or the grande size store, you're going to have probably 30 seats and then you know as it gets bigger you can get to 50, 60 seats and in some cases even bigger like you might have seen there was getting some news we just opened a flagship store in Spain at the Bernabeu in Madrid and that is like the third place on steroids.
I mean you have a complete view of the pitch for the Real Madrid soccer team. It's amazing.
Yeah. It really is amazing. I think actually I think Fast Company says the most beautiful Starbucks in the world right now.
