When have you ever had good food at a conference?
At the Scalable Summit. [laughter]
I don't know if you know this about me, but I am terrified of outer space.
What, did you block all Apollo content?
No, I watched it. I could not stop watching it. I'm obsessed with it, but terrified with it at the same time.
Here's to Scalable Summit 2027.
The sequel. Maybe [laughter] earlier.
Hi, Ka. And hi, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in to our weekly show about the creator economy. It's always so nice to be in person and in studio. [laughter]
We did it. Our first Scalable Summit. It's behind us. What was your favorite part?
Oh my gosh. I think this was months of hard work. So seeing it all just like come together was really exciting. I mean obviously the people, right? Like most importantly we wanted to curate a great event. The people in the room are so important from the speakers to the actual attendees and just like the energy like we were so blown away.
It felt like a party. It did not feel like work. It just like everyone was like buzzing and the energy was so good and the weather was amazing. I mean like nothing major went wrong.
Nothing major that we know of.
I know we haven't [laughter] done our debrief yet, but that is a testament to the Lighthouse team. The only thing that happened though is that we ran out of lanyards.
Yes. [laughter] But that's because we were expecting about 250 people and over 400 ended up showing up. But like checking in, not registering, but actually [laughter] being there.
But the Lighthouse team had that handled too because they had extras and they were able to dip into those. But everything we cared about went so smoothly. Like people loved the food, which was really important to us because food at conferences can be so hit or miss.
It's always so bad. When have you ever had good food at a conference?
At the Scalable Summit. [laughter]
Exactly. We got really good feedback on the content, which is important, and people were connecting and chatting, which is what we really wanted to happen. It got so loud at [laughter] one point though that I had to tell people to move the conversations outside, but I think again that just shows how much people were excited to be there and talking to each other. So, it was great.
Yes. And such a big thank you to our speakers. We had such an incredible lineup from across the creator economy, right? Like we had traditional media, we had social platforms. I loved kicking off the day with Twitch CEO Dan Clancy. Honestly, the best person to start the day with.
A great way to kick off. And what I appreciate about Dan is that he's the rare CEO who speaks his mind and actually isn't afraid to give a real take on something and not just kind of stick to these scripted talking points. He's not afraid to name drop competitors. A few examples, he said that he doesn't think there's real [laughter] community on TikTok. He also called AI overhyped, which is the opposite of what every major tech CEO is saying right now. We also dove into clipping with him, which we definitely wanted to talk about because, you know, how much is too much when it comes to clipping? The industry has been really divided, but we also wanted to get his take on kind of the paid armies of clippers and what he thinks about all that.
Well, speaking of Dan Clancy speaking his mind, I think one of the things that stood out to me was when he said that the social platforms are going to start quote toning back on clipping once it starts affecting their bottom line. And I don't think a lot of people have really connected the dots there, but it makes a lot of sense if people are paying armies of clippers to clip and distribute their content. I mean, that's basically marketing and the social platforms aren't directly monetizing that content and they're not going to let that fly for long. And that's, you know, what Clancy was pointing out that they want people to pay for ads to market their shows or products or whatever it is. And I think it's very similar to what we're seeing happen now in influencer marketing. I mean, for so many years, the social platforms basically let brands and creators partner on their platforms. They didn't play a big role in it. I mean, of course, they had like a few different programs here and there, but for the most part, it was happening, you know, outside of their control, and they certainly weren't taking a cut of spending. And now you're seeing everyone from Meta to YouTube to TikTok really pushing creator ads so that they can also, you know, make money off of this activity. And then in Meta's Q1 earnings call recently, the company said the partnership ads now have a $10 billion revenue run rate. So clearly it's working. And I asked Arthur Leopold, the CEO and co-founder of Agentio about this later in the day during the influencer marketing session, and he said something very similar to what Clancy was talking about. And he said that the social platforms aren't incentivized to show short form content with a sponsor. Meaning, as a brand, you have to boost that content as a paid ad in order to break through the noise and make sure you're reaching audiences.
Yeah. And I think what's so interesting about Twitch is that it's the rare platform that is not relying on advertising. I mean, they definitely want to grow their advertising business and their parent company is Amazon, which has also been growing its ad business. So, it's a key priority, but Dan said on stage that about two-thirds to three-quarters of their revenue comes from their viewers. So, paid subscriptions to streamers, for example. So, that is notable because he kind of called out Instagram in particular because they recently announced that accounts that primarily aggregate and re-upload creators' content will no longer be eligible for recommendations in the app. And he took this as potentially a crackdown on other people. Yeah. So Tessa Lyons, who's the VP of product at Instagram, had a different framing when her and I sat down in the afternoon [laughter] for a fireside chat and she said that the goal of this, you know, change is that Instagram wants quote the people who are doing the creative work to get the value of that distribution rather than aggregators or others. So obviously this makes sense. Two things can be true [laughter] at once.
Exactly. But also from that conversation, I mean, she said long form content is going to make a comeback on Instagram as it pushes into smart TVs.
Yeah. But they hadn't talked about that until this point. And, you know, they know that Reels is just not going to be enough of a draw. I mean, we've heard this from, you know, platform executives from YouTube to Instagram that people are watching Reels and Shorts on TV screens. We don't personally do that, but I think it's an acknowledgement like they know that short form videos, even if a percentage of people are watching them, it's not going to be enough to draw people to TV screens. We also talked about some of the downsides of Reels, you know how it's getting harder for creators to reach their actual followings. If you tuned in to last week's episode, Tan France had some choice words about this, saying, you know, he doesn't actually have 4 million followers on Instagram. He has as many followers as Instagram decides he wants. But this is something that Tessa said Instagram needs to do a better job of balancing. I mean, obviously Reels has helped creators grow and reach new audiences, and that's important, but like if they can't continue to reach those audiences or their loyal fans, like that's a problem for creators. So, another thing that is on Instagram's radar.
So, I also asked Marissa Hammonds, who's the global head of creator marketing and community, about whether or not we could see TikTok bring back a TV app. Now, of course, that Instagram has one. She told us that it wasn't on the road map, but quote, 'Never say never.' So, maybe we'll see something there at some point. I mean, I think it makes a ton of sense for them at this point. Like, obviously, their original one.
Yeah. It didn't work out, but again, the moment is different now. They're also pushing really heavily into micro dramas. Like, yes, it's short form content, but it's serialized and it's scripted and it makes more sense for TV than, you know, normal low-fi quirky video clips that TikTok has. So, speaking of that session, [laughter] one piece of feedback that we got from Jim Louderback was that.
Shout out to [laughter] Jim, he always speaks his mind, which I enjoy. Was that Dan Clancy took a swipe at TikTok during his session and then it didn't come up in the conversation with Marissa that happened right afterwards. Okay. So, [laughter] I was in the green room while you were talking to Dan Clancy, so I didn't actually hear that comment until after my conversation with Marissa, but I do agree that it was a missed opportunity.
At the same time though, I do have to wonder how much value the audience would have necessarily gotten out of it. I, you know, it could have made for a great headline, you know, pitting these two executives against each other, but TikTok execs always stick so heavily to their talking points. They're some of the hardest executives to interview because they rarely give you anything more than the party line. And I think her response would probably just have been, 'Well, we disagree.' Which, you know, is fair, right?
Considering community is in her title.
Yes. [laughter] Exactly. Exactly. And to the point about TikTok execs sticking to their talking points, I mean, they do their job very well. I mean, that's what they're supposed to do, but it does, you know, sometimes make for more challenging conversation. Of course, our job is to push and to try to get an answer, but it doesn't always work. Anyway, I think it's probably more valuable for the audience to learn about how TikTok thinks about its app, about content, about monetization, and there were some really good nuggets in there, especially about how TikTok is thinking more about premium content. So what Marissa said is that premium doesn't necessarily mean long form which is interesting.
Really interesting because I think a lot of people associate premium content with long form. Also doesn't necessarily mean highly produced which is very TikTok of her to say. Also has to be original content but she did admit that it has to have a story arc which does kind of lean more into the production value type side of things meaning it has to be a little bit better produced than you know some of the very low-fi short form trending content that most people associate TikTok with. Probably also a little bit longer than clips. To have a story arc, you know, you probably need more than like six seconds, right?
But for context, you already brought up briefly the comment that Clancy made, but.
We got to read the quote. We got to read the quote. Okay. Quote, 'How many people did [laughter] you think met their partner by leaving comments on TikTok? Anyone? I personally think it's zero. Wow, I really liked your comment. Want to get together sometime?' I think that'd be a little creepy. [laughter] Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
It's amazing. I mean, it's such a good quote and you know, it's such a fair point that Jim Louderback made, also a fair point that Clancy was making. Although, I do have to say that Elon Musk reportedly met Grimes on Twitter.
In the DMs. Yeah. So, it's a little bit different.
And I think it's a fair point because we do hear tech executives throw around the word community all the time and most of the time what they're talking about is audience and those are two very different things. I do think though when you're comparing TikTok to other social platforms like Instagram or Facebook, there is more of a community feeling and you know Marissa was talking about some of the communities that they have like BookTok of course is a really famous one but it's still probably not as strong as in live streaming where people are like interacting and engaging with each other. So fair points all around and a lesson learned for next time.
Totally. I think the value of having these executives is to like ask the question, see how they respond and also to get a pulse from what is important to TikTok, what's important to YouTube, right? We had all the major platforms represented and there's value in that to the audience of like how are they thinking about things. I think it's hard, you know, things are moving so quickly like the day went by in like 2 minutes for me. Like the entire day I was like, wait, how are we already at the closing remarks? What's happening? And I also didn't get to listen to every session. So, it's definitely something we'll think about when we're kind of planning. But we did so much prep. I've never prepped more for anything than this event and you know just for a little bit of behind the scenes like we put all of our questions into one massive document and at the top had like the themes like cuz I think you know you have all these different groups and how do we connect the dots for the audience right like what Twitch is focused on is different than TikTok or YouTube or sports or influencer marketing but like what are some of the themes and obviously we don't want to ask the same set of questions to each person that's boring right but we want to get at some of the same themes and like connect the dots.
A through line for people so they can have takeaways and so many people did which was really great. Those are fun to be reading on LinkedIn.
Totally. We've been deep in [laughter] our feeds getting through everything. [gasps] So, no, but I mean it was so much fun. It felt [snorts] like our wedding.
I know. It really did. Especially because we ate lunch downstairs in a private room with a sweetheart [laughter] table.
Oh my god. We have to shout out Michelle Curtis from the Wher group who is just like an events genius. And we could not have done it without her. And the whole team at the Lighthouse, I mean like obviously this was our, you know, we're hosting this event. We're so excited about it. But just having people around you that are equally as excited and bought in, care as much as you do every detail. I mean, it was just so like credit to our business partner at the Lighthouse and the whole team on the ground. But Michelle set up like a sweetheart table for us like in a side room so that we could just like eat really quickly cuz obviously we wanted to talk to everyone there and say hi, but we were like we need to eat. But it was very funny. We were like this is literally like our wedding.
I know. It also felt though that we had a team around us, you know, so important. Like I love working with you every day, but it's so nice to have the support. But I know it's amazing.
Well, here's to Scalable Summit 2027.
The sequel. Yes, [laughter] that was coined by John Goss, which is a great name for it. But anyway, what is next for us? Everybody has been like, well, now you can relax. Not the case.
Absolutely. [laughter] Probably not anytime soon.
Yeah, we are not going to be on a vacation probably anytime soon, but we are flying to the south of France to the Cannes Film Festival next, which we are so excited about. The team reached out to us to be part of their first ever creator economy summit. It's really an acknowledgement of the organizers realizing that the creator economy has become such a force in entertainment. For some context, so that my French accent is going to be really bad here, but I'll try. So, the Marché du Film is.
I don't know. I thought it was pretty good.
Okay, thanks. I took French in like fifth grade. [laughter]
I took it for like 5 years and I can say two sentences. [snorts]
Oh, sure. So, anyway, the Marché du Film is the film market iconic that takes place alongside the Cannes Film Festival every year and this event is part of that. So, we were very honored to get the call from them.
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll be taking the stage with Meta to talk a little bit more about how the company fits in with a convergence of the movie industry and the creator economy. I don't think people necessarily associate Meta with the film industry. So, I am very curious to hear how they're positioning that and where their role is there. Like, are they going to be producing movies? Who knows? Anyway, I don't think so, but we'll see. [laughter]
And then we'll close out the conference with some predictions and our analysis. So, we're super excited to be there. I also really want to go see some of the films because we didn't get to see any when we were at Sundance.
I know. So, we'll hopefully get into one screening. I've been told that we have to bring our best black tie or we will be Yes, we will not be told that. I know. I just found this out. I am leaving tomorrow morning and I haven't packed. Thank god. Okay.
And then literally 2 days later, I'm heading to the Podcast Show in London, which I had never heard of, but it's been around for a few years and it's gotten a lot of buzz this year. Major podcasting conference. And I'm really excited to take the stage with Piers Morgan of all people alongside Max Cutler who's the founder of Pave Studios. He's a podcasting expert. Previously, he sold a company to Spotify. And then I'm also moderating a session with Patreon the next day. So, it doesn't stop.
It doesn't stop. I am so curious to hear your takeaways from your conversation with Piers Morgan.
I'm so excited. Talk about candid.
I know. Seriously, I also just like have no idea really what he's been up to recently. Everybody knows his name and he's always kind of in the news cycle in some way. But like I just want to hear more about his business and what he's doing.
Yes, he is. He's building his independent media company. He just hired the ex-president of MSNBC, which now is called MSN now. So I'm very excited to hear more about what's happening with him. So we will certainly have takeaways.
And then we are heading back to the south of France. So I'm flying back to.
I mean can we talk about how of all the places in the world to have to go back to back.
100%. And also, none of this is a complaint. Like, I love all of this. Yeah. [laughter]
But this time, we'll be going for Cannes Lions, and we're so excited that Scalable is a media partner with Cannes Lions, which is actually bringing you this episode today. So, I have been going to Cannes Lions since 2022. Back then, there was barely any talk of creators. I mean, of course, there were some creators on the ground. They were brought there by the platforms. You think about YouTube, for example, as well as ad agencies. But I took a look at what I wrote as my takeaways that year from my conversations with the social platforms. Can you guess what was number one? At least from Meta.
Yeah. [laughter] It was high time for the metaverse.
Okay. And so when I went to their activation that year, they put me in VR glasses. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I am terrified of outer space.
I'm like I'm fascinated by the moon, fascinated by planets and stars.
Did you block all Apollo content? [laughter]
