Any other ideas that you're planning? Even The Crazy Ones, anything else you thought about doing with the banana?
Yeah, I'm thinking two things. You know, one, tape it to Elon Musk's spacecraft and send it to Mars. You know, that's something I'm thinking about. And then, you know, of course I want to tape it to the White House. You know, besides Donald Trump, you know, he has like a banana taped to the wall. Yeah, I think banana might be the world's most famous artwork today because I asked ChatGPT yesterday, you know, I asked him, name me one artwork that is more famous than banana. You know, I'd be the banana comedian, and ChatGPT told me, you know, so far there is no artwork that has more traffic than the banana.
Justin, what are you doing? Last time, not long ago, you had dinner, spent millions on a dinner with Warren Buffett. Then we spoke and everyone is talking about Tron becoming the hub for meme coins. Yes. And now you bought the world's most expensive banana. You don't stop, man. You don't stop.
Yes, yes, yes. Well, it's a pleasure to speak to you.
So Justin, what I want to start with is, everyone in crypto knows you. I think we know what you've built in the ecosystem. But a lot of people outside of crypto just heard about you when you had dinner with Warren Buffett and now when you bought a $7 million banana. So just give me an overview very briefly for anyone listening of your journey into crypto and more importantly, not just about building Tron and what Tron is, but your story in 2017 and your journey to build Tron, because it's a pretty fascinating journey that you don't talk about a lot anymore.
Yes, definitely. So I got into the crypto industry in 2012. So at that time, you know, Bitcoin is less than $1, right? So you can even buy Bitcoin from Taobao at the time, you know, it's an e-commerce platform in China. There's lots of miners in China, you know, mining Bitcoin, and you can buy Bitcoin from them. There is not really an exchange so you can buy Bitcoin. That's how I got into the industry. And later, of course, Ripple Labs, at the time their name is OpenCoin, you know, start a new company, call a new token named XRP, right? So I joined Ripple at that time, you know, back to 2013. And then, you know, there's lots of story about XRP. Later the company become like Ripple Labs, you know, all those stories. And then I started to find my own startup, you know, doing crypto stuff in 2014. So it's like 10 years ago.
Yeah, please. But doing what? Like people don't comprehend how it was. I was going to post a video yesterday, it was of Andreas Antonopoulos, but you know, he was giving these presentations many years ago. I don't know if you've seen the video, like five, six people listening to him and he was talking about Bitcoin when Bitcoin was $100. And people just can't understand how that was. Bitcoin before, now Bitcoin is at almost $100,000. When you built a business in 2014, what services... I got into crypto in 2017, heard about Bitcoin in 2015. What type of business could you build in 2014? What could you do?
Yes, in 2014 at that time we're building two things, right? One of the things, we are creating a platform so people can trade XRP, you know, Bitcoin. Our platform at that time, we don't tell this is like exchange or something, we say it's a Gateway. It's a gateway, right? So from this gateway you can basically convert fiat into crypto and also sell crypto to fiat. You know, that's one business we do.
Which crypto? Which crypto did you have? Bitcoin, XRP?
XRP, yeah. We just do these two tokens.
Yes, yes. And what type of volumes were you looking at back then?
Oh, at that time, you know, at the top, we have like $10 million dollar volume per day sometimes, yeah.
What was the price of Bitcoin back then?
The price, you know, when we do it, it's already actually, you know, pretty expensive. Like at the peak at the early 2014, the price goes up to like $1,000.
But it dropped down to like $150, like pretty quickly. But at the peak, you know, go up to $1,000 even. Yeah, so in 2013 the price increased the most. So at the beginning, later 2012, you know, few dollars. At the end of the year is already like $1,000.
Yeah, well that's crypto for you. And then you talked about briefly about Mt. Gox's collapse. Did you lose anything in that collapse? Did you have any money on Mt. Gox?
Um, small amount of money, you know, few Bitcoin, you know, five, six, something, you know, not much. But I did use Mt. Gox earn lots of money back then because, you know, there's an arbitrage opportunity between Mt. Gox and Bitstamp at that time. So I arbitrage, you know, between Mt. Gox and Bitstamp like all the time to earn, you know, the first money I have in the crypto space.
Yeah, so yeah, remember arbitrage? No one talks about it anymore because the markets are more efficient. But arbitrage essentially, I remember when I first learned about arbitrage was in 2017 when you could do it in South Korea. Sam Bankman-Fried did that a lot.
Yes, yes. In South Korea, I think Japan as well. Obviously in China do it as well. And there's other countries that had a lot of restrictions. But back then you could do it, just it was as easy as doing it just on Bitstamp and Mt. Gox. There was a discrepancy in price and you buy on one exchange and sell on another exchange.
Yes, it's 30, 40%, you know, at one point. That's crazy. What volumes were you doing in terms of arbitrage back then?
A few million dollars per what? Over what?
Um, I just buy from Bitstamp and sell.
Is that a few million dollars a month or total?
A few million dollars a month, something like that, yeah.
Wow. Okay, so and what I want to do Justin is I really want to understand your journey to how you got here and then I want to talk about some of the like outlandish things that you have from the banana to the dinner to what you're doing at Liberland.
So and I think your journey is going to be interesting because a lot of people are entering crypto now and they don't know the story of crypto. I could talk about mine but mine starts in 2017, five years after yours. So you did arbitrage between Bitstamp and Mt. Gox and that was before Mt. Gox's collapse. And for anyone listening, Mt. Gox was by far the biggest exchange back then and it's an infamous collapse that collapsed the price of Bitcoin by whatever 95%, whatever it was. So then Mt. Gox collapsed. What was your journey afterward? What did you do after that?
Yeah, after that we are continue, you know, doing our own project. So at that time we are starting to build a new blockchain, right? So in 2014, so we started to build a blockchain, started to talk about, you know, a new blockchain component called smart contract, right? Which today, you know, everybody has smart contracts, but back then, you know, none of the crypto in the space has smart contracts. So we are talking about, you know, building smart contracts. And later 2015, Ethereum doing a very successful ICO, raising a lot of money, right? So that's why, you know, we also invest lots of Ethereum. And then later Poloniex comes out, you know, become the most popular exchange in the world. People can start buying like other coins on Poloniex. There's lots of Ethereum and then like ERC-20 comes out, people start to issue tokens on the platform. So start from that time we are starting to think about building a new smart contract platform which is way faster and cheaper than Ethereum. You know, that's like our idea in the first place.
You invested in Ethereum's ICO. And for anyone listening, that was what, 30 cents, 20, 30 cents Ethereum price?
Yeah, because we always invest in Bitcoin, right? And the Bitcoin volatility is very big. So we don't even know the price in fiat, like how much money back then. You know, it's you at the price versus Bitcoin.
You compared the price versus Bitcoin? What the price of Ethereum was relative to Bitcoin?
Yeah, at that time because Ethereum, you know, is altcoin, right? No exchange is willing to list Ethereum. So there is only one exchange you can sell like Ethereum, is Poloniex. But the only pair you have is Ethereum/BTC pair. So you don't have stablecoin pairs. So at that time, so we don't value Ethereum price with a dollar price. So only... and at that time don't have Tether, right? So people use Bitcoin buy to sell.
So you're essentially invested in pretty much all the early things, all of them done really, really well. I don't know what Ethereum... what did Ethereum hit in 2017? What did it... what 2017 price goes very high?
High, June $400, December $800.
That was the peak. Not bad. You bought it during the ICO in 2015. Did you hold it in... that was 2014. Did you hold it till 2017?
Yes, yes. Um, 15. So 15. But I lose some amount on the... do you know the Ethereum fork?
I lose some money on that. But later, you know, because of the fork, we get money back. But you know, you need to be careful in the crypto space because at that time Ethereum don't even have wallet. So, you know, I need to learn a little bit.
How did you store it? How did you store your crypto back then? Can you share that? Because I know this is like a big taboo in crypto, you never ask anyone how they store it. But how did you store your Ethereum back then?
With my computer. You know, it's very hard to use actually. Because Ethereum, you know, at that time the wallet is called Parity something, you know, it's building Ethereum clients and you need to run the full nodes. You know, like every time takes like a few hours to sync the wallet in the first place. Like extremely hard to use at that time. And also you need to take the risk of losing all of your money. And then at that time I was thinking, you know, I shouldn't keep them in the wallet, probably I'm going to lose them all. So I'm thinking like putting on Poloniex exchange. But you know, the Poloniex exchange look more fishy, you know, the Parity wallet, because the web page is superficial. So at that time we don't even have place to hold Ethereum actually, to be honest. Very hard to do that.
And I know you acquired Poloniex not long ago, like in 2019.
Yes, 2019, something, yes, yes.
So back then, did you invest in Poloniex when they launched?
No, no, no. Poloniex is launched by the Poloniex founder, you know, he is a musician something, you know, but part-time doing crypto. So back then, but Poloniex is the only exchange, right, you can trade Ethereum. And later, you know, Kraken. So that's why, you know, even today you see, you know, Vitalik, Ethereum Foundation, any Ethereum OGs, they all sell their Ethereum on Kraken. So I think that's the reason why.
Yeah. So in 2017, so obviously you had your big success investing in Bitcoin, invested in Ethereum, XRP. You invested in what else did you invest in back then that did really well? Did you invest in Litecoin? You invested in Doge?
Yes, a little bit Litecoin, you know, Doge. Yeah, I have lots of Doge too. But it kind of like surprised to me, right? Elon, you know, eventually, you know, take Doge as his like meme coin something. But back then, you know, people is thinking, you know, Dogecoin is more like a joke, right? So even in the crypto space we use those to send to our friends for free. Right? Even today I'm thinking like I probably lose like at least $50 million just by crazy tipping other people. You know, because at that time, you know, Doge doesn't even matter the price. I give away like five million, like 10 million Doge to everybody I know, basically at that time. But those people might not even keep the Doge in the first place, you know, because they think Doge might be a joke so they don't take it seriously.
Yeah, back then. So it launched in 2013. Back then the price of Doge when it launched was 0.0026. That's what Doge was back then. And you're saying you were giving it away as friends because it seemed almost like the Bitcoin Pizza. Someone bought a pizza with Bitcoin. Bitcoin was not seen as worthless, what it stood for was worth a lot, but Bitcoin itself was far from being the Bitcoin it is today. But Doge was pretty much seen as worthless, was seen as a joke before memes were a thing. It was at what, 0.0026, now it's at 0.42. I don't know how many X's, I can't do the math of how many X's there is. So I'm actually going to check if you put $1,000 back then what it would be worth today. But and I know that hurts people to even know the stories. But I think people don't understand Justin, they get annoyed. Like to be honest, they get annoyed to see people that early in crypto that invested in Doge at 0.00 whatever or invested in Bitcoin at a few dollars or a few hundred dollars, invested in ETH at a few dollars. And you were one of those people, one of those really, really early people. But there's two things that you need to do to make that crazy money. Number one is invest at those cheap prices, you need to have the conviction and understand the value. And number two, you need the ability to hold it. So when your $100,000 became $100,000 or became $10 million, you need to hold, have enough conviction to hold it to $100 million or a billion dollars. So my question to you is, how did you get that conviction? How did you, when you became, you made your first $100 million or $10 million, why didn't you sell? Wasn't that enough money to live a good life? Why did you keep holding to get you to where you are today?
Yes, I think the biggest reason is because, you know, crypto is the first, my first company I started is doing crypto. And also the first job I have is in crypto. So I'm very satisfied with what happened in the crypto. So I never plan to leave in the first place, right? If I sell like all my crypto, where I'm going to go, right? Probably I'm going to go with Elon Musk to Mars. But I don't have, you know, before I have my next target, right? So I have nothing to do. So I didn't basically make like sell decision by on the price. You know, crypto even today, you know, Bitcoin goes to $10 million, I wouldn't sell my Bitcoin. One of the reason is because I didn't find out anything more excited compared to crypto. So if sometimes if I find out, you know, go to Mars is better than holding crypto, I might sell like all my crypto to go to Mars. But before that, you know, so I never intended to sell because I don't know where I can go. So that, I think, that's the main reason here.
When did you start selling? So just for anyone listening, I think your net worth is above a billion dollars today. And from what I know about you, you weren't that wealthy before crypto. When did you... so two questions I have. When was the moment where you're like, holy shit, I'm worth millions right now? Did you have that moment?
Yeah, yeah, sure. I think it's back in 2017, you know, oh sorry, sorry, 2013, you know, because 2013 everything, every price goes up. So Bitcoin, XRP, all goes to, you know, price skyrocket. And later, you know, 2017, you know, Ethereum price also goes up like very high. I think I made my first like $1 million around 2013 because of the Bitcoin price increase. But I didn't feel like anything, because at that time I already started my companies. I started to pay employee salary, rent, and I started to think about things in the long term. I always told my team, you know, I need to reserve at least 18 months burn rate, you know, runway for my company. So even $1 million probably a lot to most of the people, but at that time I already moved to a stage, you know, I have lots of employees. So even though, you know, not much, you know, at the time is like 10 people or something, but still I think I need to be prepared for their salary. I only sell crypto when the company needs to pay salary.
Was there... so everyone loves the bull market, Justin, and then everyone forgets the bear markets and how tough those are. I remember in 2018 we capitulated as a company, it was very difficult. I got scammed too.
Was there moments where you were worried whether you'll be able to pay employees, whether where everything was at risk? Can you tell me some of those moments?
Yeah, there's a lot of moments. It's very dangerous actually. You know, for example, in 2015, 2016, you know, these two years is very tough. Like Bitcoin price goes to very low. And at that time our team is trying to develop like a new blockchain with smart contract. Basically at the time, you know, it's a new version of Ethereum, you know, but nobody even know us, right? So like how can everybody even know our platform in the first place, right? So this is tough. Nobody wants to invest in there. And Ethereum itself is not even successful. So I think that's the first like tough two years for us. So at that time we are making live streaming apps to actually earn money, you know, paying for crypto business. For live streaming business actually is doing quite well at that time. We're making $5 million a year. So it's not much, but enough to incubate our crypto business back then.
And I remember back then live streaming was very popular in China. It was blowing up.
Exactly. So I'm doing a live streaming business and all the profit we made we all invest into crypto business. But you know, at that time crypto business doesn't pay off. So nobody wants to invest it. And actually the hard moment is like when, because at that time we have lots of investors back then in our live streaming business. And once those investors know like I'm going to move the company profit to crypto business, basically like everybody wants out. You know, say, oh no, no, no, no, we don't want to be associated with crypto. And we don't want company profits to be used in the crypto business. So at that time we have to pay the investor money back with returns to buy them out. So I think those years is quite tough.
2017 must have been very good for you. So 2017 is the first, in my opinion, the first time crypto goes mainstream. And this is when you launched Tron to where it is today.
So tell me more about your journey in 2017 because it starts off as a feeling of relief. The difficulties of 2015, 2016 paid off.
That's number one. Number two, you make a ton of money. So now you've got money and then you go on to your next thing and that's building Tron. Can you give me just an idea of your journey in 2017? I think this is when the crackdown on crypto started in China and around the world. So I want to know your journey, what led you to build Tron. I want to know some of these crazy moments and also some of the difficulties you faced in 2017 and 2018 during the crash.
Yes, of course, sure. So first of all, you know, there's two phases, right? I think on the one hand, it's beautiful, right? Like everybody excited about crypto, right? And we are doing like ICO on Tron. And at that time, you know, Binance started. People always saying, you know, Bitcoin is dying, Bitcoin going to go back to zero, you know, because at that time, you know, Chinese exchange dominates most of the volume for Bitcoin. It's all CNY pair. So that's why, you know, when people... there's a lot of FUD. And at that time, you know, is also we are forced to leave China, kind of like leave China to go overseas for the crypto business. You know, it's also feel like complicated, right? Because you are kind of like forcing to leave your homeland to go somewhere else.
When did you leave to Hong Kong?
I leave China in September. Later in 2018 I go back a little bit. But of course at that time, you know, China environment is not good for crypto anymore. So eventually, you know, so that's why I think 2017 is kind of like a grow up moment. Everyone have a moment to be a grown-up, right? So for me, I think it's 2017. At that time we know we cannot rely on a country, rely on anything. We need to rely on ourselves. That's, I would say 2017 is a grow up moment.
