Chief Executive Officer, Twitch Interactive, Inc.
Dan Clancy on How Twitch Stands Out in the Attention Economy | WSJ
Dan Clancy, Twitch chief executive, emphasizes that his streaming platform fosters a sense of belonging for its users rather than isolated content consumption. He also discusses creator safety compliance, the patronage business model and collaborating with Twitch’s parent company, Amazon.
Photo: Maurizio Martorana for The Wall Street Journal
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About Dan Clancy
Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch, has continued hosting the company's "Let's Chat" podcast, interviewing streamers including JaharaJayde, Emilycc, TheSushiDragon, and JellyYT. In these conversations, Clancy discussed topics such as the Twitch Ambassador program, the challenges of long-duration streaming, and the importance of collaboration among creators. He stated that "collaboration is so foundational" to streaming and that "streamers have a lot of talent that they can go beyond their video game." Clancy also spoke about the role of luck, hard work, and raw talent in a creator's success. In a June 2026 interview with the Wall Street Journal, Clancy described Twitch as fostering a sense of belonging and community, contrasting it with what he called "antisocial" short-form social media. He said that "people really build communities on Twitch" and described the platform's subscription model as "patronage" rather than a paywall for content. Clancy also addressed creator safety compliance, collaboration with Amazon, and the evolving demographics of Twitch's audience, noting that the largest age group is now 25 to 34. He acknowledged challenges related to AI's impact on artists and creatives within the Twitch ecosystem.
Transcript (102 segments)
I
Interviewer0:00
Dan, let's just start talking about your audience at Twitch. What are the demographics today and how has that evolved over the past few years?
D
Dan Clancy0:08
Yeah, the interesting thing—everybody always thinks of Twitch as, oh, it's a younger audience, and it is a younger audience. We have a young audience, but interestingly, if I had to say what our range is that's the largest, it's actually 25 to 34 now. Because people have basically aged up.
I
Interviewer0:27
How did that compare from like three years ago?
D
Dan Clancy0:29
I think then it's probably three years younger.
I
Interviewer0:32
Yeah, okay, so they're following you, got it.
D
Dan Clancy0:33
And we still have a strong younger population, but it's sort of like when you go back in time—when Twitch first got popular, it probably was the 18 to 25, but we didn't have as many of them, and then they all aged up. But it really shocks me how many people of all ages I run into that are using Twitch. There's a woman at the Streamer Awards—she was a, I don't know, let's call her 50-something Black woman that makes puzzles, and that's what she streams. Right, and she got Newcomer of the Year, and she was wonderful. And so our audience is younger, but it's really surprising. It's not only young, if you will, and it tends to be more as you talk about younger—17, 18, 19. We're not a platform that focuses on the younger, not that there aren't some, but it's not like some of the other platforms where it's all 13, 14, and 15 year olds. So it's more kind of that 18 on up.
I
Interviewer1:38
Other platforms—we'll get to that. I'm assuming primarily more male than female?
D
Dan Clancy1:45
More male than female still, although that's continuing to change. I think you always have this historical factor.
I
Interviewer1:51
Yeah.
D
Dan Clancy1:52
Right, because we started as a gaming platform, and especially as you go back in time, more males gaming than females gaming. But now there are a lot more women gaming, there are a lot of women gamers, and now we've diversified from gaming. So it continues to change, but it's still more males.
I
Interviewer2:08
Is it a focus? Are you actively trying to get more women?
D
Dan Clancy2:11
It's not—I mean, we are conscious of diversifying our creator base and the content that's on Twitch, not so much from a viewer perspective.
I
Interviewer2:20
Yeah.
D
Dan Clancy2:21
We just want to continue to support a diverse range of voices on Twitch.
I
Interviewer2:25
Right.
D
Dan Clancy2:26
And so we try to support women streamers. And women streamers aren't always getting women viewers, but sometimes they do, and that's great.
I
Interviewer2:35
So you worked at Google for years. How does that inform how you're running Twitch today?
D
Dan Clancy2:43
So for those, I worked at Google for nine years. I ran a project called Google Book Search. I did a bunch in everything except web search—like search quality for everything else—and I was at YouTube for two years. And there's nothing magical. I mean part of it is, of course, I've been in the tech space, so I understand the space. I think being at YouTube for a few years really helps me. But there isn't some short pithy thing, because each place is just so different.
I
Interviewer3:14
Was there something you saw that they did with creators that you're like, I'm doing differently?
D
Dan Clancy3:20
I think it's not that I said I'm doing differently—it's because Twitch is just different.
I
Interviewer3:26
Sure.
D
Dan Clancy3:27
Of course probably many of y'all are very familiar with YouTube and other platforms, and some may be familiar with Twitch, but the creator in many ways is more central on Twitch. When our viewers come to Twitch, they may watch—around maybe four to eight creators in a week. On YouTube, you'll see hundreds of creators in a week. So there's a more intimate connection. And the way I kind of describe it is, there's sort of this continuum. On one hand you have a platform like TikTok where you'll see thousands of creators in a week. And if there's somebody you watch on TikTok didn't create stuff for a week, you wouldn't notice it. YouTube then is in the middle, there's a little more of the creator, but it's really the platform, TikTok, right? YouTube, it's the platform, but also the creator a little bit. And Twitch is on the other end, where it's really the creator that is the star. That's who people have a creator they love, they're coming to see. Half of our traffic is people direct navigating to their channels.
I
Interviewer4:35
This is the creator I wanna spend time with.
D
Dan Clancy4:37
Because I'm part of this community, and that's why I'm coming. And so we create a space. There's this very subtle difference if you're not a techie, but when you're live streaming on Twitch, you live stream on the creator's channel.
I
Interviewer4:51
Right.
D
Dan Clancy4:52
That's their channel. Okay, and when they get you there, it's designed so that you stay there. And that's what builds the community experience. Years ago when I was at YouTube, it used to be that you could watch videos on a creator's channel back in 2010. And when we launched YouTube Live, it was on the creator's channel, and then we took it off, so that you were always watching on what's called the Watch Page, where you have related videos. So on that platform, they're always showing you other stuff, right? To always get you to go somewhere else, where on Twitch, once a creator gets you to their channel, we keep 'em on that creator's channel until they decide to leave. And that's what makes Twitch kind of different. And that's what's right for Twitch, 'cause we focus on live streaming.
I
Interviewer5:36
So I kind of hear the answer to my next question. So I'm gonna ask it a little differently.
D
Dan Clancy5:41
I'll give you a different answer anyway.
I
Interviewer5:43
I appreciate that. I'll ask a different question. So I mean, I just talked to a creator who was like, 'YouTube is my home.' How do you compete with that?
D
Dan Clancy5:53
So really the issue is all of our creators use YouTube. Really what they're saying is, they mostly like creating edited content versus live content.
I
Interviewer6:04
Of course.
D
Dan Clancy6:05
And the reality is both work in different ways. And for some people, once they go live, they're like, 'Oh my gosh, this is amazing.' And there are lots of YouTube creators that create edited videos and then they start going live—we have a number of 'em coming—and they're like, 'Wow, I love it.' 'Cause there's this immediacy, and I'll use this analogy, everybody here, imagine that you are a musician, okay? And think of the difference between recording an album and putting out an album and doing a live performance. There's a wonderful part about crafting a song and putting out an album, but then when everyone's listening to it, you only know it because you look at Spotify and go, 'Oh, I have 1,000 listens,' or I have whatever. Which viscerally is not the same as being in an audience where you do a song and everyone applauds and you feel like, oh, I really affected them. Or for you being here versus writing an article, right? There's something about seeing people nod. He's nodding his head, right? And when you're live streaming, people are nodding their head, but by putting stuff in chat, by putting their emotes, and biologically we're designed to feel good about that. And so I think it's just—for some people, live is great for them. And then if you're talking about live, Twitch is—all the live stars are on Twitch. But for some people, they prefer editing a video, and that's great for them. That's just what's right for them.
I
Interviewer7:41
What about the audience? I mean you have TikTok, you have YouTube. How do you get people away from these, like how do you compete with them? I mean they're everywhere. My kids are on them all the time. No judgment please.
D
Dan Clancy7:55
Right, so obviously we're in an attention economy.
I
Interviewer8:00
Of course.
D
Dan Clancy8:00
And people often think of us, 'cause we have this moniker social media, and they have a moniker social media, so they think we're competing with them. But really we're just all competing for people's time and attention. And it may be Netflix, or Prime Video, or it may be YouTube, or it may be reading a book, or it may be going for a run. We have to do something that engages you. And really what we offer is actually quite different. A phrase I say all the time, and every time I say it, everybody looks up and says, 'Yeah.' Social media is actually antisocial now. Sitting and swiping doesn't make you feel connected. That's not where social media started. It started with, 'Oh, I'm hearing from my aunt that I haven't heard or whatever.' But now you're sitting and swiping, and it's a little isolating. Okay, Twitch—people throw around this word community, I don't think they always use it appropriately. People really build communities on Twitch. As I look around, I'll use an analogy that folks here might get—it's like 'Cheers,' a place where everybody knows your name. And so it's actually quite different. Now, the reality is, people like short-form swiping, okay, but they also need connection and community. And so I think we offer something that's actually quite different than the other social media platforms.
I
Interviewer9:20
Just speaking as a parent, I'm gonna ask this question then—is it less addictive then?
D
Dan Clancy9:25
Yeah, I think the interesting thing—I'm a parent of a 28-year-old and 24-year-old, and I was very, when they were younger, minimized how much they were using phones and whatnot. And I'll use this other analogy, which is, 'cause there's been a lot of attention to social media, especially with teens right now. And a lot of it is because it's sort of isolating, and you're just sitting there by yourself. In the book that started a lot—Jonathan Haidt's book, 'The Anxious Generation'—he talked about how he expected to find the same thing with young boys in gaming, but he didn't find the evidence as clear. And I think the thing that he didn't realize is that, when I looked at this with my son, I myself am not a gamer, surprisingly. My son gamed to hang out with his friends. And if you have a son and you're like, 'Why are they gaming?' They're hanging out with their friends, and that's what they're doing. And that has this countervailing force. Yes, sometimes they're online too much, it'd be better if they're hanging out with their friends playing baseball in the park. But that's not for everyone. It's not always available. And Twitch is the same way—it's not actually, you may spend a fair amount of time, but you're not by yourself, sitting and swiping, and evaluating yourself against these images that you see. You are hanging out and talking to other people, which makes you not feel so isolated.
I
Interviewer10:58
So is Twitch good for our kids?
D
Dan Clancy11:03
So the phrase 'good'—it's always relative. If you're asking me as a parent, I want my kids out in the sand, and rivers, and streams, and doing all sorts of stuff. But we live in a different world in terms of having other kids that your kids can play with. Every summer I used to have this idea of taking a week where my kids would not be in any organized activity, and I'd get all their friends together, and I had this idea of just let 'em play, where we'd just organize my son and all their friends to go to a park, and they would play pickup baseball or basketball. There were never enough kids in the neighborhood to do it. Right, so that's this challenge. Okay, now this is when he was 10 or 11. So I do think that interacting with other people can be healthy, but as I said, our sweet spot tends not to be the 13, 14, and 15 year olds. Right, our sweet spot tends much more to be as they get a little bit older, and a little more comfortable in terms of 17, 18, 19.
I
Interviewer12:07
Yeah, interesting. Let's talk about the business. So you are owned by Amazon. How much interaction do you have with the other parts of the Amazon business? It feels pretty separate.
D
Dan Clancy12:17
Yeah, they've been great. I mean they're a great supporter. They still let us sort of maintain our own identity and do our own thing. And in that sense they haven't tried to deeply integrate us in various points of collaboration. We work with Prime Video a lot. Amazon Music has a channel on Twitch that they invest heavily in. Audible's doing some stuff with 'Harry Potter.' But in the end we still have a fairly unique identity as Twitch.
I
Interviewer12:47
Are there areas where you feel there's more opportunity to kind of do more together?
D
Dan Clancy12:52
There almost always are areas, in particular, I think, with Prime Video.
I
Interviewer12:56
Yeah.
D
Dan Clancy12:59
More and more you're seeing this convergence of what I'll call highly produced narrative content and creator content. And podcasting, which is really a creator artifact as opposed to a highly produced narrative show—and you see these platforms more and more thinking, 'Oh, we need to have more content that is not just the highly produced narrative shows.'
I
Interviewer13:26
Sure.
D
Dan Clancy13:27
And so I think there are various areas. I think that there's still lots of interesting ideas that integrate some type of recurring narrative VOD with a live experience.
I
Interviewer13:37
Let's talk about—so how are you doing in terms of ad revenue compared to subscription revenue?
D
Dan Clancy13:44
Yeah, so that scenario—most people don't realize that a little more than two thirds of our money has come from our viewers.
I
Interviewer13:53
So subscriptions.
D
Dan Clancy13:54
Subscriptions, and let me explain, 'cause most people don't know what that is. Most people think of a subscription as, oh you're paying for access to content. That's not what our subscriptions are. Our subscriptions are really patronage. When you subscribe you pay $6 a month, but it's not to get access to content. You don't have ads when you're watching that channel. But then you get access to these emojicons, or emotes as we call them, which is sort of an internal language of all the people on that channel. And you get status in the channel. And then we launched something called gift subscriptions where, if I'm already giving you $6 bucks a month, but I want to give you $50, as opposed to just tipping you $50, I give 10 gift subscriptions to other members of the community. So they now get a subscription for one month, and the community feels like I'm giving it to them, not just to you. And then I get celebrated. And so that is a big part of our platform and the community that's drawn. And advertising matters a lot to our creators, too. Especially as you get bigger, advertising becomes a bigger portion, you have broader reach. Also the generosity of your community tends to be more intimate when you're smaller, 'cause they feel like they're making a difference in your life, and as you get bigger proportionally, it's not per person, you may make more money, but that's 'cause you have so many people watching you.
I
Interviewer15:22
What are you doing to get the ad revenue up to where the subscription revenue is?
D
Dan Clancy15:27
The biggest thing actually is coming to places like Cannes. Seriously, it is one of the challenges we face—most of the folks in different media companies, brand companies, they don't necessarily use Twitch themselves. And it's not a platform that, if you don't have a creator you like, you can just open and sit there for hours. I've often joked that if somebody just suddenly put Kevin Hart live streaming, and you didn't know who Kevin Hart was, you'd never seen him, you'd never heard of him, you knew nothing about him. I don't think you'd sit there and watch him for two hours. Arguably Kevin Hart is the most entertaining human being on this planet. Okay, but if you're gonna sit and watch him, you need to have some context, you need to have some relationship, you need to have some knowledge. And so part of this is, they don't understand how Twitch is different than these other platforms. They're used to swiping, 'cause you can open up certain apps and just swipe and find something. And so most of it is spending time explaining it and then when they see it, they get very excited, because they realize that it's exactly where they want their brand connected. I often talk about how advertising is ultimately about emotional transference, especially brand advertising. You wanna put your brand next to other content where people are engaged and leaning in. That's why people like to do sports.
I
Interviewer16:58
Yeah.
D
Dan Clancy16:59
Sports is highly communal. People think sports is about watching the world's best athletes. Forget it. It's about our tribe. And you can see that with the World Cup, and how excited—and Twitch is about tribes for each creator. So you have that same type of the viewers. So it's the same type of emotional transference, even though it's not what I'll call highly produced premium, but you have the same thing. And when they start seeing that, and they start playing with it, they're like, wow, no, this is pretty special. But you gotta describe it to 'em, 'cause they haven't experienced it themselves.
I
Interviewer17:34
I mean it's interesting, 'cause when you look at the more, like the entertainment subscription streaming services, the Netflixes of the world, more people are willing to pay more to have an ad-free experience. But that's not the case on Twitch. Why is that? Do they like ads more?
D
Dan Clancy17:52
Well interestingly, that's not—no. First of all, I mean we have a site-wide ad-free subscription that does well.
I
Interviewer18:00
And do more—like how big is that compared?
D
Dan Clancy18:02
It's still a small percentage of our user base, right. But yes, people use it. I do think that on Twitch, because they know that the ads are supporting the creator as opposed to just interrupting the content, so you're a little bit—you still—I don't care, everybody has all these visions about how people are gonna love my ads, people are gonna want my ads. I'm sorry, people don't want to just watch ads, right. But that's okay, right. They still can have the impact. And on Twitch, of course people will complain 'cause we have ads. But the reality is, since it's supporting the creators they love, some people can't afford to subscribe and not get ads, and so they're kind of okay with it instead of it being interruptive in some narrative form.
I
Interviewer18:51
The other thing I've noticed is I feel like one big concern that advertisers have had historically around creators and live content is brand safety. Has that started to shift at all? How are those conversations going?
D
Dan Clancy19:07
I think it has shifted a lot. First, we've done a lot to make sure we can control like different types of content to make sure you're only appearing in front of content that matches your particular concerns. We have what we call content classification labels that creators have been very good about labeling. So that, for things like with drugs or alcohol, or a little more sexually themed content, you can avoid that completely, and that's working great. So we have a pretty good system there to make sure you don't appear. And then there's—with live, there's always some component of oh, something will happen. But as they realize those are small things and fairly rare, and that the value that you get from Twitch of kind of authentically being there greatly outweighs that.
I
Interviewer19:56
Yeah. What's the biggest mistake you find that advertisers make when they're trying to work with you or working with Twitch? Or with creators?
D
Dan Clancy20:05
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we always come from that which we know. And of course many advertisers have grown up in the world of linear TV, and then streaming TV, of produced content, where you know the content in advance. You understand it completely. Today's world, our youth is just very different, right. And part of what you need to do is adapt how you think about advertising to what the younger generation is doing. And they are looking for more immediacy and authenticity in what they're seeing. And so I think the biggest thing is realize, look, the reasons you are doing certain things, they don't necessarily need to transfer exactly. In other words, like if there's a particular movie that you don't want to be next to because of the theme of that movie, if something randomly happens in a live stream, it's not the same.
I
Interviewer21:11
Right.
D
Dan Clancy21:12
As being next to that movie, because it's not central to everything that's going on.
I
Interviewer21:16
Right. How do you—I mean you have thousands of creators on your platform. How are you thinking about content?
D
Dan Clancy21:21
Millions.
I
Interviewer21:22
Millions, I'm sorry, millions. How are you thinking?
D
Dan Clancy21:25
If only we only had thousands.
I
Interviewer21:26
Right, sorry.
D
Dan Clancy21:27
It'd be so much easier to deal with them.
I
Interviewer21:29
Yeah, exactly. Well, so that's the question. How do you manage content moderation? How do you catch things before they blow up?
D
Dan Clancy21:36
Yeah, so there are two parts of moderation. One part is in terms of the content, and the interesting thing on Twitch is, it takes a lot to build an audience on Twitch and to build your community. And if it gets taken away, 'cause we suspend you for three days, a week, a month, it impacts your livelihood. And then you can't just go create another channel, create another bot, create another whatever. In other words, if you're on other social media platforms, go get another email and create a new thing and hope that it goes viral. Like that's not the way Twitch works. It takes time to build. So our creators care a lot about adhering to our rules, and we have a team that gets reports, looks at them, and then if somebody steps out of line, we offer some form of a warning or a suspension. And then we've seen extremely low recidivism rate.
I
Interviewer22:32
Interesting.
D
Dan Clancy22:33
In terms of that. I forget the exact number, but it's quite low, in the single digit percentages or something like that in terms of recidivism, in terms of violations of our community guidelines. The other thing we do is we have moderators that are looking at chat, and one thing that—
I
Interviewer22:53
Real people.
D
Dan Clancy22:54
Huh?
I
Interviewer22:54
Real people.
D
Dan Clancy22:55
Real people, real people. The other thing that people don't realize, and now I'm gonna morph this a little bit to how it's different for creators. So all of us are familiar with going on short-form social media and seeing all sorts of responses and replies that can be offensive or whatnot, right? Or attacking and all that. When you're live streaming, in general, if you post a piece of short-form content, if there are 100 people that like you, maybe 10 of 'em will comment, right? If you have 10 people that don't like you, all 10 of 'em will comment. Right? So now you've got 10 and 10, so 50% of your comments, and you think 50% of the people don't like you, but it's really only 10% of the people that like you will comment, right? On Twitch, the 100 people that like you are chatting all the time.
I
Interviewer23:46
Right.
D
Dan Clancy23:47
The 10 people that don't like you won't sit there and watch you for an hour and a half or two hours, right? They'll show up, they'll say something a little ornery, our moderators can then ban them or take care of them. But the other 100 people are all chatting all the time.
I
Interviewer24:02
Yep.
D
Dan Clancy24:03
So each one of the 100 people will say 10 things.
I
Interviewer24:06
Right.
D
Dan Clancy24:07
And the 10 people who don't like you will say one thing.
I
Interviewer24:09
Right.
D
Dan Clancy24:10
So now you have 10 nasty things and 1,000 good things. So it really just kind of disappears.
I
Interviewer24:15
Well, I mean you mentioned bots. I'm wondering with AI, are AI bots becoming more of an issue? Are you able to filter all those out too?
D
Dan Clancy24:24
I don't think—it is an issue, but because, if you will, the good speakers are speaking a lot.
I
Interviewer24:36
Right.
D
Dan Clancy24:37
We can eventually figure out, and you can ban or suspend the bots and get them out, and we have all sorts of techniques to do that, and we have verification on accounts and all sorts of stuff. I do think people often talk about, 'Oh, AI and scary AI.' I think the one area that, when you talk about short-form social media, X, and other things, so much we are influenced by what other people say. And what happens now is you have all these bots, and more and more they're gonna be AI bots, that you think are real people that are expressing a view when you see something posted, and they're not real people, they're just bots trying to shape the way you think about something. And again, on Twitch, since the good people are speaking so much, they don't get dominated by the AI bots.
I
Interviewer25:31
Right.
D
Dan Clancy25:32
But when you're on short-form social media, where the good people only say one thing, and only 10% of 'em say one thing, I think it's a real tricky thing, because you think it's a real person, and it's not a real person making that comment at all.
I
Interviewer25:47
Yeah, no, that is tricky. I'm mindful of the time, so I wanna make sure if there are any questions—I mean I can keep going, but does anyone have any questions? One right there.
A
Audience Member25:59
I'm curious what you're seeing in terms of the opportunities for sports and Twitch.
D
Dan Clancy26:03
Ah. So remember, let me tell you where the opportunity doesn't exist, and then I'll tell you where it does exist. Okay. The opportunity doesn't exist in just taking a linear stream of sports and sticking it on Twitch and saying, 'Great, I'm done!' Right, and there's some chat there. That's not a community, right? A community is shared people that come together. And so where we see most of the opportunity is, we do see one thing we're doing, like with the NBA, we're doing something with Prime where we create what's called a Creator Cast, where streamers are not—it's not an alt-cast where they are like the Mannings—what it is is kind of a watch party, where streamers are hanging out with two of their friends, and then everybody in chat is hanging out with them going, 'Oh no, he missed the shot!' And then people in chat saying, 'He definitely fouled him!' 'No he didn't foul him!' And they're talking to each other, and it creates like the feeling you get in a sports bar, right? And I think we're gonna continue looking at this, about how creators can build community around sports. You see it now, actually right now with the World Cup, you have all sorts of folks IRL streaming. Noted one is Speed, but there's really lots of streamers that are going to the games, IRL streaming from the cities, and you feel the energy of everyone there. And it's not just about the game. People mistake and think sports is just about the game. 50% of the time we spend on sports is on shoulder content, right? So I think the opportunity is building communities, both around shoulder content or for watching it together, but not just putting the content linearly on there.
I
Interviewer27:41
So that means we shouldn't expect you to bid for NFL rights.
D
Dan Clancy27:44
We're not gonna be—we'll let Prime and everyone else do that, but like the one we do with Creator Cast, it's the Prime—we had like 14 games this year from the NBA on Twitch.
I
Interviewer27:55
Got it, wow, okay.
F
Fiona28:04
I'll stand so that I can see you. Hi everyone, I'm Fiona, and I just have a question about your markets strategy. I'm from South Africa, from another platform, and so I'm very interested to know, for example, in Africa there's been quite an organic interest and growth in the streaming arena without so much investment that I can see. So I just wondered what your guys' thoughts and plans were around emerging markets and things like this.
D
Dan Clancy28:41
Yeah, and well, I'll focus on Africa in particular. And of course Africa is a very diverse market, as you talk about. South Africa is very different from other regions in Africa. And I think it is kind of starting to emerge now. I mean previously they didn't have the internet connectivity outside of South Africa, of course, there's been streaming there, and that's fairly—but in other parts of Africa. And I think we start seeing, and it sort of happens naturally. In other words, we don't have to invest a lot, because we're a platform that works where people can start streaming and then we support that. So it's definitely an area in Africa where we see that evolving as the connectivity is there, 'cause so much depends upon the connectivity, so that it's not just about viewing. That's the key difference. Like if you're gonna be watching other African streamers, I need to be able to stream from Africa. Whereas I can watch Netflix without having to have a high bandwidth uplink. But you need to have decent uplink, and sometimes in the cellular system it's still—you have okay downlink speeds, but your uplink speed is limited, in which case it's hard to create a rich streaming culture.