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When you're on the field, kill the other dude. When you're not on the field, you don't have to kill the other dude. But when you're on the field, you want to win. You just have to realize when you're not on the field. The problem is I don't think people don't realize when they're not on the field.
The best-selling author and host the number one health and wellness podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, you know that I'm fascinated about speaking to people from different backgrounds, different walks of life, people who've made interesting choices, decisions, had life events that have changed the trajectory of their journey. And I like diving into the insights that they have, the wisdom that they have, some of the mistakes and failures that came along the way as well. And today's guest is one of those individuals. I'm talking about the one and only Ariel Emanuel, chief executive officer of Endeavor, a global sports and entertainment company, home to many of the world's most dynamic and engaging storytellers, including me, brands, live events, and experiences. The company's composed of industry leaders, including entertainment agency, sports, fashion, events, and media company IMG, and premier mixed martial arts organization UFC. In 2009, Ariel orchestrated the largest talent agency merger in history when Endeavor, the agency founded in 1995, joined forces with agency William Morris to form WME. Now, we're about to dive into his story. He doesn't do a lot of podcasts, so we're very lucky. Please welcome to the show and On Purpose, Ariel Emanuel. Ari, thank you for being here.
Yeah, you've had quite the journey. And
We're just talking about it. When I was in the mail room, you know, there the Thomas guide, 15 cents a mile. I was figuring out cuz your house was... I maybe we don't want to let people know where it is. Way up in the hills. I would have never been able to get here using a Thomas guide. Thank god there's, you know, Waze and Tesla their system. So.
Yeah, I wonder what that was like when you were like meeting clients. You're like
Horrible. It was not horrible actually. You realize how to get around. It was a great experience that, so if I'm going to be in the valley and I had that thing that it does take 45 minutes to get there. So, once you kind of, it was actually the right steps and a lot of people went through the mail whether it be Barry Diller, David Geffen, Mike Go. I mean, everybody did it. And I would have never been able to get here though using the Thomas guide.
That's good. That's funny that you
Me saying the Thomas guide.
Well, no. I remember my parents we used to drive to Europe because my parents couldn't always afford to fly. And so we'd have the A to Z in England which is like this big map A to Z big map that they'd pull out and then track it across like physical map. And then we'd have one for Europe, one for like France and Switzerland. And so we'd drive over and I'd see my parents like pull over and ask for instructions. It was a different world. And you've watched that. And I mean, you still look incredible. I'm like when you haven't aged yourself at all. But when I think about how much times have changed like what is if you could say that these are the couple of the biggest changes you've seen in the last three decades in this industry in the world that you're most astounded by because I think we're getting used to change. I think for I didn't grow up with a phone. Like I got my first phone when I was 13 or 14 and it was a Sony Ericsson like brick with a little antenna.
I yeah, it was one of those old flip phones Sony Ericsson. Had a little antenna on top of it. My mom had one of the big like chunky brick style phones. But I feel like we're getting so used to change being so rapid that we actually don't spot patterns. Have you spotted any patterns over the last three decades, what would you say they are?
I don't know if there's patterns, you know, but I think you have to look at them in different sectors, whether it be tech, whether it be the entertainment business. The one pattern I do see, change is happening a lot faster. So, the pick up the phone probably took seven years. The speed of adaptation, the one big change, it's just now happening very quickly. And that just lets people you better be really comfortable in the uncomfortable and change. And that's a mindset, that's a process to get to. That's what you have to realize it's and all this is going to happen a lot quicker now. Which is I don't think it's good or bad, it just is what it is.
Yeah, I love what you just said. So, my entire show, I just went on a world tour and the entire show was based on the premise of getting the audience to sit in discomfort. So, I would literally bring up random audience members and one of them was locked on stage for 15 minutes alone without any sound. We had other audience members come up and have to do tasks that were uncomfortable. I love the idea of getting comfortable
You better breathe through it.
You better breathe through it.
I was going to ask you like how have you trained your mind to be comfortable with discomfort?
I'm not sure any of us are really comfortable with ourselves as we mature and kind of get into... I said this to a client today. I said, there was a period of time I just didn't want anybody to find out that I really wasn't that bright. And it was, you know, I was scared, right? And with that, I think goes back to my childhood and being dyslexic and not believing that, you know, I'm okay, I'm not stupid, right? In my family, stupid was a definition and smart was but. I started fasting and once you start doing it, it's not comfortable. And I just started telling that little voice, no, I'm not giving in to that little voice. No, I'm getting up even though I don't want to get up. And then it's that conversation you're constantly having. Somebody said my constant negotiation with myself. And now it's, if I meditate for 20 minutes every day, it's not easy sitting there for 20 minutes. Your toe itches, something, you got to get through it. And it's just, oh, I'm going to do a cold bath for 5 minutes every day. That's not fun. And it's just teaching your body, no, you can get through this. I'm not listening to that voice. I'm just breathing through it. I'm just getting through it. And it's been probably 15 years of that and it translates into business. Because then, okay, we're taking over IMG. I'm going to move to London for 4 months. Kids and family's going to be on the East Coast for the summer. And it's going to be brutal. And yeah, you can do that and any of these new tasks that you take on cuz you're telling yourself a story that whether it's going to be good or bad. That's not the truth. You have to just realize that thing's not the truth and you just have to go through it. Yeah, it's not going to be easy. So what? Who cares? Like yes, that's part of the process. That's actually part of the interesting thing that we're all doing. So. It did start though with not eating.
Mhm. Yeah, no, I love that because
Yeah, interesting. When I started learning about what fasting does or eating windows do to your body and autophagy and etc., that then got your mind, okay, I can do this and then you just start building on that. I probably am past the point of health emotionally healthy, but yes, I'm way past it. But yeah.
No, but I love that because that's super practical, right? Like that's not an ethereal concept. The idea is you are able to put yourself through things that you didn't want to do, but that were actually good for you. And I find that that's why
Yeah, you hope they're good. Yeah, you're hoping.
But the idea that most of what we don't want to do, that we choose to do, is actually what helps us get ahead in life.
I said this to my kids. You know, success is a lot of things we're talking about. One of it is, and that goes to kind of putting yourself is showing up. Like, there's a voice saying, you mean I got to get on that plane for 16 hours? I got to just go have a lunch and I got to fly back from China? I don't want to do that. Okay, it said I don't want to do it, that little voice. I'm doing it. Yeah. And learning to say, oh, that's the voice. No, I'm getting on the plane. And showing up, going through it, yeah, that's part of growing up and being successful. A lot of people are too lazy to fight that voice. And over time, when you get older, and I'm a lot older than you, you don't want to fight the voice. And all the things I do now is, I think, because as you get older, that voice takes over more and more. It's easy. No, don't get up at 5 and work out. No, don't do this. No. I do it. I don't care. As soon as that voice turns on, I say, I'm doing this.
Yeah, it's really interesting you say that because I feel like a lot of people say they can't hear their inner voice, and it's because that inner voice
Cuz you're not listening.
It was so loud when we were younger.
But it gets quieter and quieter and quieter because the other voice, we kept listening to it, and it got louder and louder and louder. And so now we're having unlearn that loud voice and reframe
And for me it started with fasting periods. You know, I do the 24 and I do 16 and sometimes a 48 or 60. And it's then kind of evolved into multiple things to keep it exercise that I cannot listen to the voice.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you need friends who push you, too. I remember a few years ago, you know, whether it was skydiving or whether it was cold plunges, as you mentioned there, it's like you need to be surrounded by a community. I just literally I've got some friends from London staying with me right now this week and I took them to do a cold plunge with me, you know, every day we'd be doing a hike every morning. We've been doing infrared saunas
They don't do that. They've never done it before and it was just interesting
How did they do on their cold plunge?
They did really well and they were saying that because we were I was like trying to coach them through it and helping them breathe. So, on their first time, they did the first one one of them did 4 minutes and the other did 3 on their first time.
And it was amazing. He's just got to get past the first minute. Exactly. So, it was a brilliant result, but it was that idea of your community of people around you.
When you were, I love what you just said there that you were scared at one point in your life of being figured out
As not being so smart and you said that came from your childhood and yeah, you had ADHD, dyslexia from what I've researched. Walk me through how that idea stays even after you're starting to see success because I think people believe that when you become successful, when you close your big deal, when you build a company that some of that goes away.
You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, did you see that documentary?
The most recent one that he did. It's just about him growing up and bodybuilding
I think so. I don't think I saw that.
So, he talks about, you know, he won Mr. Olympia. And everybody was telling him how great his body was. Right? And they're all looking at like, oh my god. In his head, he was saying, this is wrong. That's wrong. This is wrong. And you're like, nobody would have said that to him. You know, some people say it's your inner voice, your shadow. My shrink used to tell me it's your shadow. Maybe people were thinking I was successful. I was thinking about that kid that couldn't read and that during Passover didn't want to read the questions because I was the youngest and going into the sewing, that's why I hate Passover now. The anxiety I had when I was a kid. So, it's just kind of upbringing. I'm no longer dealing with those issues. It's not like I'm beating my chest, oh I'm successful, but I'm comfortable. And it's that in a good way drove me. Like I'm going to prove everybody wrong and, you know, any bully comes up to me, yep, we're going to get in a fight. Anybody calls me stupid, yep, we're going to get in a fight. Physically, that's when I was young. And it's just held over. And then there's the point in time where you're saying, okay, I'm not doing this anymore. I have to deal with these crazy stupid... Yes, you're successful. Yes, it's okay. Nothing's being taken away from you. And so, that just came with age, a lot of shrinks and a lot of other therapies that we'll get into later.
Yeah, yeah. No, but I think it's really important because I think there's two things there. One is that it doesn't go away on its own.
Revenge is not the solution or proving someone wrong.
Got you to a certain point.
After you get to a certain point, if you stay with anger and resentment and fear, you only can get to a certain point in your life. And once you make the transition that, you know something, that's never going to get me over the hump. And you have to go a little deeper. And that's scary. And takes work. When you sit in yoga, I don't know what it is, it just opens up things to come to you. And the process to come to you. And that's what happened at, I don't know when it really happened. Probably 12, 15 years ago that I was on this journey to find out I don't want to be that guy that somebody says something, I go to code red nine. That's not healthy. That's way too much energy. It's emotional energy that is exhausting.
Absolutely. And that's what it is. It's exhausting. It's draining and it takes away from that creative energy, the spark that's
So, let things in that actually need to come in that then you can see the world differently and like, wait a second, you're not seeing it through those eyes. You're seeing it through a different like, wait a second, what about this? What about that? You can be creative. That's a better place to be.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to ask you as well, I mean, you probably get asked this all the time, but I think it's important context setting for everyone who's listening. The idea of like sitting in the discomfort as you were talking about it. My wife and I are huge Entourage fans and I can imagine that it's cool but uncomfortable to have your image displayed in a certain way that has pros and cons and
There were aspects to that character 100% true.
You know, I was very aggressive. And when we started the business, we couldn't compete on price cuz commissions were commissions. There was five other big players in the and we just had to, one, be more creative. Two, more aggressive. And fight. So, yeah, that was true to form. I mean, not all of it, but in the surrounding, yes. I don't know what Entourage would be now, that character.
Yeah. So, yeah. And what were stuff where you were like, that's definitely not me? Like, were there anything
Well, I don't know. To be candid, that show gave me anxiety. Gave me a lot of anxiety. So, I didn't watch a lot. And people now watch it. I mean, during the pandemic I got a lot of calls from guys I know that had kids and the kids started watching kids in college started watching. I was like, yeah. Yeah. I didn't see that episode. I did watch the episode, which I never did. I think he started using a squirt gun on people. I didn't see that. I mean, I did see that, but I didn't do that. Yeah, that's the one.
Good to know you didn't use a squirt gun. Yeah, that's important. How have you harnessed or how has your aggression matured in business? Because the reason why I raise that is because I think, you know, we swing in pendulums in the world. So, if you think about business back then and how we viewed Wall Street and even when I was growing up, like the dream was to be an investment banker. That's what everyone was becoming in London and that was the big goal when I was a kid.
And did you want to become one?
I wanted to become one without knowing what it was. Yeah, right? Like, that's what happens and I went to Cass Business School and did management science and I was training to go off into the corporate world because that's what I thought you had to do.
Don't you remember when you were growing up? The objective was how big the stack was.
I never had that objective.
For whatever reason, my parents didn't. That was not the objective. It was to do well in the world and make the world a better place all that stuff.
And I think a lot of my friends, that was how big is the stack?
Totally. Same for me. I didn't grow up with a lot. My parents didn't have a lot, but they always gave in charity. They helped the community. My mom did a ton of community work and then I obviously met monks when I was 18 years old. So, like that became my paradigm shifted massively and I was always far more creative than anything else and that's what I enjoyed. But I guess the question I'm asking is I think we've gone from that very aggressive, very competitive, brash, harsh energy and then we swing to this pendulum where everyone's like, well, no, you just got to be fully like empathetic and vulnerable and compassionate. I'm like, so, how do you
What is the middle ground balance? Because the answer's always somewhere in the middle.
Here's somebody really smart, I won't say who, told me. You have to know, and this only comes with time and maturity, when you're on the field. When you're on the field, kill the other dude. When you're not on the field, you don't have to kill the other dude. For you, it's got to be a good deal. For me, it's got to be a good deal, etc. But when you're on the field, you want to win. You just have to realize when you're not on the field. The problem is I think people don't realize when you're not on the field. And that has come over time like when am I on the field? Okay, when I'm on the field, I'm playing to win. When I'm not on the field, I can be in a different mindset. That shift for me, going to fear, anger, etc., I always thought I was on the field. And for a long time, to get the company where I wanted, I was always on the field. Now I don't have to be on the field all the time. And that not being on the field enables you to think properly and just let things in and grow that gets you to other things that all of a sudden affect the field in a different way. You have different moves. It's probably how great players as they get older, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, their bodies are not the same, but they're better players because they just know how to do it differently. So when I'm not on the field, I'm not on the field. When I'm on the field, I'm playing pretty hard.
Yeah. That's a really unique insight. I like that because I feel like that's also what challenges people in their personal relationships because not only are people not on and off the field in business, they don't know how to switch it off when they go home.
And so your wife and your kids or your husband or your partner or whoever it may be ends up getting that same treatment as you do at work because you haven't reached that maturity level of knowing how to and it's not as easy as a light switch.
Like it's not just oh, I'm work hat off, work hat on. It doesn't work like that.
And your partner, depending on what they do, you might be off the field, they might be on the field. Right? Because they're going through their thing. It's just like that's what it is.
Yeah, I just got back from tour and we went to Bali for a couple of weeks just to relax with me and my wife. And it's so funny because she's a
She's a vegan chef and recipe developer and incredible with knows everything about Ayurveda and herbs and nutrition and she's made me very healthy compared to what I used to be. But she's on the field right now because her career is booming, she's doing incredibly well and it's so fun to watch. And it's so funny because I was like, yeah, we're going to Bali. She was like, you know what? I think we're going there for a bit long. And I was like, that was me. Like I used to say that like 5 years ago. And so it's just like, okay, it's not only your life. You have two people and you just have to navigate, oh, I'm not on a field trip. Okay, I got to think about this. Maybe even though I want to be there 3 weeks, maybe it's only a week and a half. And I'll just be off the field here. I'll figure out what to do.
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's hard because I think yeah, we struggle when you've done for other people too, when you've said things when you were on the field, it's hard for the person, especially in business, for now to view you differently when you're off the field. It's as hard as that.
Every relationship, every personal situation changes after 10 years. I was not the same person I was from '95 to 2005. I'm not the same person from 2005 to 2015. I'm definitely not the same person from '15 now. And yeah, people's viewpoints of me is probably what it was in '97, '98, and let me just say something. That guy was not I mean, he was a good guy, but he was always on the field and he was ashamed, nervous, angry fighter. Not that I'm not aspects of those things, working on them, but
Yeah, yeah, that changes. It's hard.
They come into your relationship, they have all this now they can read everything, see everything, and like, oh, that's the guy. Or not. That's why I'm doing this, dude. I'm such a gentle, nice, hugging
Well, no, I the reason why I always enjoyed these conversations is because I think I struggle with that in perception, too, where I feel people believe that someone who is mindful or meditative has to be a certain way at all times.
Do you know when you're on the field?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And that's why I love that piece of advice is that you said it in a way that I think makes it so easy to think about, and that's why I really appreciate it. And that's exactly what it is for me. Like my team knows that. They can see that when I'm in the zone and I'm not or where I'm wearing my home kit or away kit. Like however you put it, like
I like that home kit. Home jersey, away jersey, right?
And I can feel that, and I think that you have to know that, but I think the idea is that we like to simplify people because it makes it easier for us
If you're going after the stack, and that's the goal, right? Which is like crazy.
It's so arbitrary, the stack. You're always on the field. What you don't realize is you can be happy at whatever the level the stack is. There's just a different way to think about it. And you will get to a very big stack by figuring out this first, when you're on the field or when you're off the field.
Absolutely. And I think that's the difference. I wanted to ask you the difference in success and happiness or success and contentment. Because you've worked on both and tried to be conscious of both. How have you seen the difference and how do you work on them as well?
I was never content before. Probably the first 20 years of business. I mean, I was just going to prove everybody wrong. I was going to prove to myself I wasn't stupid. I was just running hard. When I say this word, that doesn't mean that I'm not in business. I'm content. And all the things I thought about that I wanted to accomplish and how I saw the world kind of played out. I'm a really lucky guy. I'm comfortable that I'm not stupid. And I got a lot more I want to accomplish because I want to accomplish it, not to get the stack any bigger. And I'm happy doing that. That's a completely different place from the first 20 years where I had no idea. I just thought about the stack and what success was in such a different way than I think about it now.
And do you think everyone there's that brilliant quote from Jim Carrey where he said that everyone should become rich and famous and achieve everything they ever wanted just to realize that it's not the point. Do you think that there is [clears throat] something
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's I love that statement because I feel like there's something about pursuing success as you see it which may not be a perfect definition. Experiencing some success and then going, well, wait a minute, this wasn't it. And I feel like because you always hear successful people say, oh, it isn't it. But it's almost like I think
Oh, I'm happy where I am.
I'm really I'm so glad that it played out. Those statements are actually accurate, you know, like it's enabled me now to kind of when I started this 12 years ago or whatever to get to this place. I'm not sure I would have ever gotten to it with a different mindset.
Yeah. And in '95 you had a big accident, right? Like there was something that really messed you up.
I was working at ICM. There was a breakfast place called Kate Mantilini's. I was walking down Wilshire. It was about three blocks away. Coming back and I and just sitting on the curb I said to myself I was going to the breakfast like, well, you know, I got to move back from this curb. These cars could hit you. And I was not in the street. Cut to I'm walking back from breakfast in the crosswalk right outside of where the ICM building was. And a flatbed truck didn't see me, took a left onto Wilshire, hit my left side 9:00 in the morning Friday. Guess what happens? Your life changes. You like life's not a dress rehearsal. Was laying in there. I just wiggled my fingers and toes. I said, okay, I'm not crippled. Kind of my I was outside my body screaming. I was laying there watching myself scream. And then I just said to myself, life's not a dress rehearsal. I did a rehab cuz I couldn't bend my leg. And then I did a surgery on my leg. And then I did another rehab. So, that was 18 months of hell. And then I said, what do you want to do? And I definitely didn't want to be at ICM. Yeah, what was the phrase I used to hear when I was at ICM back in 1990? It's like, I cover myself. That's what it stood for. So, there was no camaraderie, culture, anything. And so, me and three other guys decided to start when I could be healthy and then we got it in '95 on my birthday, March 29th, we let loose. So, and that was the catalyst to say, life's not a dress rehearsal. You got to get to what you want to get to. And that kind of thesis at the 20-year mark change in how I look at life and am I still going to be that angry guy and all the different routes we all take in our lives to get to where the end is. So,
Yeah. Did you try and change some aspects of the culture based on that statement that you built or did you find that
I just wanted to treat people well. You know, inside and share clients and communicate better. There was a guy by the name of Phil Raskin, the first employee. And they fired him. In the Israeli army, you don't let anybody stay. You go get the bodies. So, I said, you're hired. Now, we had no money. We're not making any money. And I said, we're hiring you if they're firing you. And how we treat people was kind of the crucial thing different about how we did things. I think one of them. And I think it's progressed. I don't know if it's perfect now. You'll have to ask the guys running the agency right now, but I think overall, I hope people feel that way.
What was it like building something from scratch when there wasn't any money? Because I feel like it's easy to look at you now and every you know, it's
And no salary because you're out on your own. There's
Well, we were in a tussle with ICM over commissions. And because we couldn't pay the commissions because they said they deserved it because we're in a contest this whole thing and they were going to sue us for certain things and so we had no money. I mean, we knew things we had money, but a lot of stuff was old stuff. About a year, year and a half, 2 years in we settled. I might be getting dates wrong, but right around then. And then we had money. And in that period of time the world changed. Michael Ovitz left the business who was the god and Ron Meyer, Bill Haber. And then Gavin Polone left this company UTA. And a lot of shifting happened and we had put on we had taken a couple people from CAA, Marty Adelstein and we put on a bunch of TV shows that were successful and we had money because of those because they were going into syndication and packages. And so it was like free agency in baseball. We had money and people are like shifting what are they doing and we were home. We were in the right place at the right time.
What was the hardest thing you had to do in those 2 years?
You just had to work. You know, with no money but just putting the time. You were doing 17-hour, 18-hour days. Wife was pregnant at the time my ex-wife with our eldest. And keep on building and how we going to do it and, you know, the five of us I think Marty would have joined and then 2 and 1/2 years in Patrick Whitehill had joined and just kind of how we keep on progressing and doing it. Like with no none of us had ever done it before. We were all as my father was saying in Yiddish, we were all pishers, you know, like small nothings. And so we just figured it out. But you know, it wasn't like oh we went from no money to ah. It was nothing. And it was we were happy. We were really happy because we were in our own heads it was successful. And it was hard, but we had fun.
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Yeah, while I was a student and before I ever started doing things online, I used to do events in my local area in London, and like 10 people would show up every week to hear me speak about spirituality, psychology, human behavior. And I loved it. I did it for 10 years before
Wait a second. You went to school to possibly be a banker.
And then what, not that we're going to reverse the interview now.
What was the transition to like, oh, I don't want to do this. What happened in your mind or life event?
So, I think life event that I met a monk. And I'd never met a monk before.
At school. So, they would come in. We'd have speakers come in, whether it be CEOs or athletes or celebrities or former alumni or whatever it may be. And one day a monk was invited to speak at a small college session, and some of my friends were getting
No, not a business session. Just a general like, yeah. And I was invited to go because some of my friends were getting into meditation at the time. This is early, like we're talking about like 2006, 2007. So, we were doing that, and my friends were kind of getting into that space, so they were telling me to come along. And I was like, yeah, I'll go if we go to a bar afterwards. Like, that's the kind of guy I was growing up. So, I went along
You weren't married at the time?
No, no. I'm 18 years old. I'm about to start college around that time. And so, I go to this event, and I hear this monk speak, and I'm kind of there going, okay, when are we going to leave? Like, who cares about this stuff? How does it benefit my life? And I actually walked away feeling completely just reflective because this monk was saying that the greatest gift was to use your skills in the service of others. Like, he was saying that whatever you've been given,
That was his main theme, to improve other people's lives. And it was like, I'd never heard that from anyone before 18. And I realized that when I was 18, I'd met people who were rich and famous and beautiful,
And thought that was the stack.
Yeah, but I was like, this guy seems happy. He seems content. He has something that
At what point in the lecture did that hit you? Because at one point you're sitting there and let's go get some beers.
Yeah, at the beginning I was kind of like, okay, what is he going to say when he came out and he's dressed in robes and he was from India and like, you know, I'm a kid in London like, there's nothing externally attractive about him. And then as he spoke, like as I actually listened to him, I was just mesmerized. And so I said to him, I just want to follow you around. So I ended up following him around for the rest of that week. He was doing events in
London, homes and different things. And then at temples. And then I started visiting him in my summer and Christmas vacations in India.
And then when I graduated from college, I went and actually lived with him as a monk for three years in India and the UK.
And what did your parents say?
They were like completely scared and worried and our son? Yeah, and all of our friends and family he's been brainwashed. It was really interesting because and I'll talk to this about perception. It's really interesting because everyone now is kind of like, 'Oh Jay, you just, you know, this is a good story.' And I'm like, 'Dude, when I chose to become a monk, it was not a good story.' People thought it was the dumbest idea of all time. Like, it was like career suicide. It was like, 'He's been brainwashed. Like, what happened to this kid who got a first class honors degree at university, straight A's, you know, like what is going on here?' And all of a sudden I'm taking this path. Your parents must have freaked out.
My parents freaked out and my extended family freaked out even more which made my parents freak out more. They came from India.
So that upbringing and that going back that way? Oh my god.
Yeah, exactly. So and but I felt called. I started listening to my inner voice when I was 14 years old and it's been so loud ever since. I don't know any other way to go and so for me it was so loud. And so that was the shift in my trajectory where
So you come out after 3 years, what happens?
I hoped I'd do it forever and that I really thought I was going to do it for the rest of my life. It did not work out.
