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But I do personally think it's the best thing I've ever done in my whole life. Full stop. And I was like, look, you're clearly insane. Like I've never drank alcohol and I'm not going to touch an illegal drug. But the biggest interference is death. It's not my... I don't choose the time. I don't choose... and we need to change that.
My guest today is a friend, but he's also most definitely the most interesting human being I have ever encountered in my life. He's an entrepreneur. He's an investor, but he's also just a really nice guy. And he's invested and started companies in some of the most fascinating industries from psychedelics to space tech to artificial intelligence to cryptocurrencies to fintech. You name it, he's in there. In fact, he's the single biggest investor slash driving force behind the whole psychedelics industry which is currently trying to cure mental health disorders. This is undoubtedly the most interesting person I know and I think this is the type of podcast where you're going to demand a part two because we spoke for 2 hours and even I was left feeling that I was only scratching the surface and that I wanted to know more. The man I'm talking about is Christian Angermayer. And I genuinely believe he's going to become, if he isn't already, one of Europe's most important investors and entrepreneurs. In the same way that people praise Elon Musk for all the work he's done in the US, I think he's Europe's answer to Elon Musk. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
Christian, I know so much about you and the work you do. I know your, you know, I've observed your behavior in person over the last, you know, six to 12 months. Deeply, deeply fascinating. But the part of you that I know very, very little about is your early years, your upbringing, your childhood.
Really? I've been fascinated by... I think it was a cute child. I've only heard slithers of that part of your life. So, could you tell me a little bit more about the childhood that made the man?
The main point I'm always making which I'm really literally happy about is that I was a very, very happy child. Meaning, I'm still a very happy person. But I think the reason why I'm groundedly happy is because I had a great, like how do you say, childlike upbringing. Like I was growing up in a 90 people village. So...
In Bavaria, I literally knew everybody. Then there were a lot of other children, so I'm an only child, but like I had a lot of children sort of same age plus minus 4 years to grow up with. And we were literally like in a TV series, we were out all day like in summer, in winter, like it was very much like you would picture like what is these American TV series where they... my day on a farm or whatever like it was like that, sort of...
Really idyllic, like yeah, no crime, like no risk. Like I was literally, my mom sent me out in the morning in summer, winter, and I came back in the evening since I'm like five. Like I was, because there was no risk for anything. Like... yeah, so that was sort of the very, very... this was till I'm 9 and then we moved to a town, mini city, town with like 2,000 people so it's nearby, like kilometer apart. So it was all very, very rural, very... which I liked. So I'm actually was thinking about if I have children or when I have children then how to recreate that which I think won't work. So, but like I think it's great to have nature which is also by the way, I mean already jumping but like yeah, because you know that I do a lot in mental health work. Like and one thing which is really healthy, very, very simple for your mental health is nature. Like there is even in Japan they prescribe like a walk in the forest as a treatment for depression. So anyway, so I grew up in these super nice childhood. Like I always was funnily very entrepreneurial. Yeah. And nobody else is. So not in my family, not in this village. Like so that was always literally like with six. My mom still has the... So the first thing which I did when I learned writing was writing invoices. Like so tiny bills like oh give me five, give me five cent for salad. So I was actually had a very flourishing gardening business.
So since I'm four, like five... how's it going? Sorry, wrong English term. So psychedelics.
No, I stopped it later on when I was 12. Like, no, but this how I started my first business. But my mom still remembers that the first thing I did with my writing skills was writing her an invoice for salad and everything. And then I was literally like in a movie. It's very stereotype, but I was selling lemonade to neighbors. Then I was selling lollipops in school. I was selling literally everything. Like I made a business out of everything. So I remember when I went to my first cinema ever, I think I was like seven. Then I was so fascinated that people are buying for something which is apparently also on TV. They didn't get the difference. So then I started charging my parents at home when they wanted to switch on the TV because I was pretending I was running a cinema. So yeah. So every literally everything I was doing I saw through the lens of a business.
And when you look at your children... my parents were deeply worried in a nice way but they were worried. They always tend to be with kids that are slightly different.
But they... Exactly. I... Yeah. So I look like them so the discussion if they maybe not my parents was early off the table. Yeah. But like sort of from the way how I see the world and I'm very different.
What were the factors, the sort of macro factors at play that were making you into this entrepreneur at that age, but also the entrepreneur you came to become?
It was always there. Like I...
Sometimes I think for myself, I think because my parents were never around, they create this big sort of void of freedom and independence, which I thought made this connection in my mind that if I was going to get something, it came from my behavior. I'm thinking about those factors that, you know, freedom. You said, you know, I've heard you say that your parents were very keen for you just to be happy.
Yeah, exactly. Like they were always like I can be whatever I want. So, but it was not that I don't... I don't know if that automatically leads to entrepreneurship. It could also have led to me being an artist or whatever. Like I don't think there is a connection between freedom. It's actually the freedom to be whatever you want. And then I think maybe you... maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's like I don't know like... this is the point meaning it was always there. There is not... there is not a moment I can think of where I sort of changed but it was literally since I can think, since I'm four, five, six, like very, very early it was always there to make a business out of everything in a nice way hopefully.
That coupled with some kind of innate curiosity which is... Peter Thiel said when he did a quote about you in Sifted he said that curiosity is one of your real sort of...
Yeah but I don't... I just thinking if that was that early visible. I loved school which I think I was a very nerdy child as well. So I yeah I loved actually... I did love school for... and even meaning now more talking than later high school for the one reason and even if I look back now I really miss it a bit because it was the only time in life where you do something for the pure reason of learning something with no material sort of meaning. I turned that then also in a business because I started my... this was my first real business was when I started a tutoring business when I was 14. And then I...
What was that business? Tell me.
Tutoring, like giving sort of other kids... Yeah. Because I was extremely good in school. So I was always the best one in my school but I was practically always the best one in like Bavaria or whatever. Like top 10. Yeah. And I was always... I like to explain stuff. So I think that still helps me now because it's part of fundraising to explain complex sort of things to people. Anyway, so I liked... I did like to explain stuff and I did like to... and I was good in the matter. So I started tutoring. Then there was this tiny thing I think a bit that because the teachers very much liked me because I was always like the good child like everybody who came to me automatically became a little bit better because teachers were treating these children more nicer because they were coming to me. So it became this sort of positive virtue circle that more and more parents were like oh god we have to send our children to Christian because it really works and I think...
And what were you doing for these kids?
Well, tutoring, like how... teaching them the same thing, the same thing because they were... these were the ones who didn't perform well. How you call it English? Tutoring, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Tutoring. And they were your peers. They were the same age.
Same age or younger? No. Or younger. Like it was mainly like a little bit younger. Like one or two years, but not a lot younger. So anyway, and then I was like after half a year I was so like full. Like I think I worked like 10, 15 hours a week probably all the time. Like it was tutoring and then I was like how do I really scale it up and it sounds now very... I don't know, very banal yeah but for me this was like the first time I really thought about business like in an entrepreneurial way how do you scale it up and practically I realized I have the brand because parents want to send their children to me. So I was employing other pupils my same age or even a little bit older and said you can teach under my brand and you get half of it and I get half of it. So 50% margin and I started employing and I continuously till my final grade had like 10 people like always employed.
Yeah. Who were tutoring other children.
Yeah. So it was a very lucrative business. Meaning for a child like but...
It's crazy. Absolutely crazy.
And then so you get to 16, you get to 18 in that period of your life. I hear that in Bavaria they have this like public service you've got to do for a year.
Yeah. I just was thinking like how compliant do I have to be because then it's all... I think what is it called when it's out of time is back like nobody... nobody can claw it back. Like because what happened is like I was always extremely libertarian and in... we had back then, it changed in Germany but we had back then like the Israelis have still, you had to go to the military for a year and I think in generally this is wrong not because I'm against the military but I think you can employ people this is a job like people would should want to be a soldier or should want to be something else. But I think as a government meaning I in general you think the less government the better. So I was thinking hopefully this comes across charm but because I was thinking all the time how to avoid it. Unfortunately I was not daring enough back then. There were tricks to do it like you could have had said you're sort of mentally ill or whatever like I was not brave enough to go on with that. So I decided to do... you can you could also opt to do civil servant. I... civil servant like go to a hospital or whatever. So and I tried to be really nice. So I picked a job which I knew is it didn't really require me. It was more like okay you had to put these children who didn't want to go to the military. You could say you're pacifist. You had to put them somewhere. It was not that somebody was dependent on me. So I was sitting in that hospital and my only job was to bring stuff from A to B like whatever. So then I made an... I remember that I made a proposal that if we reorganize everything in the hospital I could do my job in an hour and then go home. Yeah. So this was I was 18 and then they were like okay this is crazy like it's not really really popular. So and then I made a decision that I'm not really going to show up anymore. And the only way to do that was to get always like doctors to give me like...
A letter. And so now comes but the important point because like till that time I was extremely like I loved learning so I was actually thinking I'm going to... if I would have gone and I think this is sometimes how crazy stuff happens and then it changes sort of the whole course of your whole life practically. So I think if I would have gone from high school to university, I would have just been in that sort of mode like of learning being extremely good. So I guess I would have just went on with what I was doing like meaning producing great academic outcome so to say. So then came this one year which I was completely bored. So I got these doctors writing me letters that I didn't need to show up. But in return I started managing money for them because I was already speculating on the stock market since I was like 15, 16 and I was not bad in it. So I became friends with all of these doctors even in the hospital I was working and they were all like well we help you if you help us because this was the early days of the... or not you know like this was 1998, 1999 like this was the stock market boom whatever. So everybody wanted to be in it. So this was sort of my trade-off for these letters. And so and I can't be... I'm easily bored. So I always want to do something. So practically because so I was not the type of person who was okay I have a free year now and I'm going just partying like I was like okay I have a free year now I'm going to do more tutoring. Yeah. And I'm going to do managing money for these doctors. Yeah. And sort of that completely switched my how do you say course like so I wasn't this... I actually wrote the book yeah and tried to sell that this didn't work out but I did a lot of entrepreneurial stuff just because I had time. Yeah. And then when I practically went to uni then a year later I was sort of mentally not anymore in that sort of learning world. I was in the okay I want to be an entrepreneur world and then I was... and this sort of when I met... we met actually two guys who finally were my tutors in a scholarship I had had during high school already like for sounds awkward but for highly gifted children. Yeah. So I was sort of in summer school I was at university this where I knew them from. We reconnected and they were telling me about this idea and it just sounded great and they were like my tutors in terms of I was like okay these guys are the pinnacle of biotech. And then I was the one let's do a company together and we did and this worked out really well and then I dropped out of uni. So this how I think this how was this sort of I think without these one year in hospital or sort of one year in hospital not in hospital yeah I would have stayed in a completely different path.
I hear you talk a lot about you believe in like the serendipity and spirituality which almost seems surprising because you're such like a scientific person whereas you do believe that things happen at the right time.
Totally, totally. Actually I'm actually very extreme with that so I... everything which is happening... literally everything...
Well, this conversation happens because we planned it. Yeah. But like the fact for example that we met originally. Yeah. While our mutual friend whatever. So I'm always... everything which is happening to me which I didn't actively say hey I need to have a meeting like which is not in my usual rhythm. Yeah. I always think a it's happening for a reason and also it's happening for a good reason. Even bad stuff. I believe in this power of positive thinking but like more like people always then say ah this means like if you wake up in the morning you're... if you feel great it's going to be a great day. I think it's more deeper. I believe in this what there is this great book Law of Attraction like whatever you sort of think and rather how you think not just meaning sort of the essence what you think not like the detail partly but more the essence and if you expect sort of good stuff to happen you're sort of attracting that.
Yeah. You think there's a... do you think there's a spiritual force that attracts it or do you think your intention moves you in that direction?
So, look, I'm very pragmatic, meaning I... I mean, first of all, I dare to talk about this stuff because I'm very also scientific. So, I'm like, look, nobody will think I'm crazy. Yeah. Maybe a bit. No, no, I'm joking. Like, so, but the other thing is like there are multiple explanations and I don't really care about the explanation. You can have a very spiritual explanation. Yeah. It's the force of the universe. Yeah. And then you can have a very pragmatic explanation that if you continuously expect positive stuff, then you look out for that stuff and then it's more like a numbers game or like a... Yeah. But and I don't care like it works tremendously well for me since I'm 16. Yeah. And I had these... I had some very crazy things which go borderline which you could explain like sort of with statistics or whatever. Yeah. So maybe too crazy on the show for that, but like but there were some... there were some things where I tend to believe in the spiritual explanation. Yeah, because they were... Yeah, I think harder to explain or you can always explain them with statistic like you know what I mean like but I don't care like it does work tremendously well for me.
Okay, so going back to this company you founded with these two your two sort of like university mentors. This company went on to be really successful. I think you said it's worth probably about 15 billion at last check market cap.
Today but like I sold very early but very early I sold when we went public for a billion so it was... it was actually pun...
Well there's... there's a short and long answer no because like the short answer is no because like a that money was the basis for the rest yeah b also people always mix up market cap and share price so meaning I sold at the lower share price that is today but the share price is not 15x because they did capital increases, there was dilutive stuff like so, so anyway, long story, it was an amazing start. Yeah. So, yeah, it was actually the quickest biotech IPO, I think, in Germany ever. We IPOed 3 years, three and a half years later after foundation and for a billion. So, it was everything. And it was sort of I dropped out of university before, but it like was the sort of...
Catalyst I would say. Yeah. So, I don't regret that. And since then sort of I'm investing and being an entrepreneur. I'm somewhat in between. I would say I actually sorry when I'm jumping I had this one story again by the way which is completely you can...
Serendipitous and like even a little bit more. So I remember it exactly. I was 14 years old and I was with my best friends back then in Munich which is far away. For me, this was like going to the big street like... and we so we spent the weekend with family members. I mean I really remember every single detail of the weekend like what we did and like where what and we went to a bookstore which is for Germans who listen is a... back then was like sort of like a I don't know iconic bookstore 100 years old in Munich. I think it's still even there although books are dying out smaller. So it's in the prime location of Munich and so I remember it. So I go into that bookstore and there was these whole how you say promotion...
Yeah. With just one book which is the American Think and Grow Rich from Napoleon Hill. And do you know like when in movies like the 14-year-old boy goes in and then the light is coming down and then the hallelujah is coming. Sort of that meaning it... there was no music there was no light and I was like that's it Think and Grow Rich I need to have that book so I bought the book and it was practically my first kind of being... Napoleon Hill is not as spiritual as some others yeah but like that was my journey into that world of let's say spiritual infused success books.
How do you define spiritual?
Well there is like Napoleon Hill is sort of... and I love it by the way because they all so old like they're all out of the 1920s so they don't have the zeitgeist which I think in terms of success is rather negative like so it's sort of like raw American...
Yes, exactly. And Napoleon Hill has this... why it was a great entry into that thing because his view was if you read many... the book starts that he says he got commissioned by Andrew Carnegie who was the steel magnet to find out and do interviews which I think by the way you are doing in a certain way yeah with successful people and find out if there are common traits... you say traits yeah common denominators which make them successful and he did that with all the famous people of his time from Andrew Carnegie himself to a lot of other famous people and then he made that into the book and he's actually saying that the question he doesn't answer the question why these rules so to say work he's more on neutral observer and then the next one is actually there's a guy called Dr. Joseph Murphy who wrote similar books but more like with the spiritual undertone why these rules work. Same rules sort of more explanation why they work which went more into the religious world and then you have all the other book and Law of Attraction is nothing else which is sort of the modern version and The Secret which is sort of a simplified version of an... anyway simplified version yeah of this stuff like but it's at the end it's always the same rules some which think it's they are god-given some which say look again this is statistics whatever but they do work I deeply believe and these things do work.
Like visualization, the way you think.
It's visualization is that the... the main thing I think is two things is visualization. So I meditate in the morning and evening but it's not real meditation. It's more like visualization. So I always have a plan for the week for the months for the year for my life. Yeah. And everything kind of did come true so far. So I'm always thinking what could I add like a wish list. Yeah. And now again you can say if you add something and then you focused on it it might come true because you focused on it. There could be a very banal explanation that it's relentless execution and nothing magic and I don't care. It's like I'm like well like yeah it does work. So and the visual... I think it's the two things. It's visualization and it's also these that you have for example I'm not... it sounds very crazy but I'm trying to not have negative thoughts. So, and then there is a number of negative thoughts you're going to have anyway because you have to deal with stuff when you run a business. But I, for example, I have never watched a horror movie since 20 years at least because it gives me negativity. So I and I go the extra mile. So I told for example friends when they are too much complaining meaning I'm... and the first one friends can call for a problem but then I'm like let's go through the problem. That's the solution. That's what you're going to do. But if they would repeatedly because some people want to not solve the problem. They want to repeat the problem. Then I'm like you can't call me again on that topic because no negativity. Yeah. So I really have a rule. Yeah. So no negative movies. I never watch a movie which has no a happy ending. So I have people check or I check before does it have a happy ending? No bad endings. Nothing which makes me sad. Nothing which makes me negative because I'm not... I'm not allowed in my own religious philosophy to have negative thoughts and feelings. Feelings are even more important than thoughts because I think they are the underlying driver. So and it sounds now maybe cheesy and simplified but I think if you... this is what I'm doing since I'm 14 and if you train yourself not... and again you will always have an sort of amount because sometimes hard things happen. Yeah. And I don't want to pretend as if my life was easy because I did have very hard times in business. But even in those times I was lying in my bed literally and was like okay this is not fun what's happening right now but it must happen for a very, very positive reason because this is how your world works and funnily it always the worst things in my life turned into the best ones. Yeah. So because I again and you can say now maybe somebody would say well because he was persistent and he didn't fall. Okay then this is the explanation. Maybe there's a deeper one. I again I don't care. I can always come to... but I would tell everybody the two things emotionally is like don't have negative thoughts. Just focus on positive sort of thoughts. Visualize these are the key things. Be happy. So many things that you know.
And dare to be happy because most people are again don't allow themselves to be happy and even think it's a little bit negative. So there's this whole thing happening on Instagram that I want to come back to this point about this movies and because I think it's very much linked to your whole thing about alcohol and stuff. This happiness equilibrium you talk about, but just quickly on that point of being really positive and unapologetically positive and saying, 'Listen, don't call me with the same problem twice. Don't interrupt my positivity.' There's this whole movement happening on Instagram at the moment where there's such a thing as being toxic positive. It's called... like no. And I like getting on this point like because that's one thing I think I... meaning again maybe so I have to... so maybe I'm sitting there I'm already so old that there is another generation I'm thinking about the other generation and because I'm reading a lot like very old stuff and you find Socrates complaining about the youth so maybe that's a recurring thing. Yeah. But I really think part of the millennial culture of these victimization and always like blah is this is so wrong. This is so wrong. Yeah. So to pre-empt a question because then normally we say well you saying that because you're rich, you're white. Yeah. So I was like okay this is maybe a point. Let's go back because I didn't talk a lot about it but I'm happy it's already like...
I grew up in this 90 people village. Yeah I'm gay. I'm actually happily gay, but I look... meaning I know I'm gay since I'm 11ish round about. So, and I was looking at sort of that world I was growing up in and I was like that's not going to resonate here. Yeah. So, seriously like and that's very, very positive phrased. Yeah. So, in my school people were saying let's beat up gay people and I was like that's not going to end well. So, but I didn't think that is anything bad by the way. I didn't even think these people were sort of wrong. Obviously, they were wrong. But I was like, they don't know better. I'm not like ah these are bad people. I was just like be pragmatic. Sometimes life is not fair. Sometimes life is not nice. But you can decide if you react on it. That's one of the other points I really believe in that you have these tiny millisecond in life on everything. If somebody is sort of rude to you, if somebody says something very bad and you can decide if you hurt or not, it's your decision by the way. Nothing's gonna hurt you if you decide you're not going to be hurt. Yeah. So, and I was like, they don't know better and I can't... by the way, and by the way, gay is not what defines me. So, I was like, well, then I'm not gay for a while till I'm out of here. Yeah. I can't because there are other things which define me like friends like you know like you know what I mean? Like it's not that I reduced myself to this one thing and was like and now I need to shout it out to the world and in return would have get beaten up. Like I was like just like just don't do it like but don't blame the others. Yeah. And then move away somewhere. Also I mean it's all like don't try to change everybody else. Work on yourself and like and your environment what you can change. Like I could have started like oh my god my life is miserable and I'm growing up in this village and blah blah blah. And actually talk about serendipity. I'm honestly I'm... but again I'm trained to see the positive stuff. If I look back, if I would have been straight, I wouldn't sit here for a very simple reason because I would have dated every single free minute I would have had like... Yeah. and would have enjoyed that. Yeah. So, but I couldn't. So, so what did I do? I was working my ass off and learning all the time. So, and if I hadn't had the grades I had, I would have ended the first money I had. I would have never met these guys with whom I started a biotech company. Yeah. and nothing would have happened. I would have been an ordinary straight boy. Most likely smart. Yeah. But not uber smart because sometimes it's smart and hard work to get grades. Yeah. It's not all falls and fall. So, so practically the if you say like the... the... how do you say adversary or the negative thing being gay in a very hostile environment and not talking about it and focusing on other stuff completely made my life. Yeah. In a very positive way. I would... I mean Yeah. I'm so happy that this was the case. Yeah. And again and everybody should look everybody has limitations and negative stuff but you should look at it and say they are there for a very positive reason and something amazing will come out of it. I just need to have this continuous sort of expectation.
And optimism. And you have a real sense of like personal responsibility that comes across like you'll take responsibility for yourself and your actions.
But who else... but it's like who else should be?
The government or you know someone else. We see that with the vaccine give the government a little bit of responsibility and it goes totally wrong. You don't want anybody be responsible for you than yourself.
So going to this point about the horror films which I thought was somewhat connected to what I've heard about your role with alcohol and cigarettes. You've... I hear you've never drunk before. Ever. You've never had a drink.
Exactly. So, there were two reasons for it and they were connected. The one again, by the way, the one reason was because I was actually thinking like if I'm going to be drunk 14, 15, I'm going to spill out on gay and then it's over. So, so my social life of being the darling of the school that day.
Yeah. Exactly. No. And I was also like I was very nerdy. So, teachers love me, but I was also how you say school speaker, speaker of the school, whatever. So I was socially had a great life. So I was like, 'No, let's not risk that.' Like no alcohol, you could say the wrong stuff. Yeah. So that was the one thing. And the other thing was that I always sort of because you do that as a child. But in general, and I think it's a good thing like if you have one weakness in my case, the weakness for the time was being gay. The other you build on your strengths, which was like, okay, I think I'm kind of smart and also like smart in terms of learning smart. I learned very easy. I always had the best grades. Yeah. So I was sort of focusing on that. So I was also like okay alcohol could take that away from me because I thought it makes me dumb which by the way does yeah in a lot of amounts I still wouldn't drink. But so these were my childish reasons not to drink. And then I just decided okay I think I have the perfect equilibrium like being always happy having very good grades everything was perfect. So I was like I'm not going to touch any drug ever.
And you still haven't touched alcohol, cigarettes?
No. So, I have not... I haven't drank alcohol. I haven't smoked a cigarette ever. I haven't smoked a joint ever. I have not take cocaine. I haven't anything like...
I did... I did actually drink alcohol the first time when I was... sorry. Echo, sorry. Coffee the first time when I was 28.
So, you avoided coffee as well.
I was even avoiding coffee and tea. Yeah, because it was a drug. It was almost like the very religious people. So, I would have been a good Mormon. So, but then coffee I started drinking when I was 28.
There's something crazy here where you think okay so the guy that doesn't want to upset his equilibrium goes on to be the biggest psychedelics investor in the world which is all about...
I think there was a very good ground because what happened is so I had a discussion or a dinner it wasn't a discussion it was like a dinner discussion like we were set somebody sat us next to each other with funnily the joke and said oh you... the guy was a very or is a very famous drug researcher like he's the David Nutt of Germany like the drug advisor to the government and yeah a neuroscientist and somebody said oh you two should sit next to each other because maybe you can loosen Christian up a bit and he could drink a little bit of alcohol so this is how I met... his name...
Deputy again no but like exactly like again by the way everybody else would have said...
I remember that I was like oh my god that's awesome like and everybody else would have said well I again in every single thing happening I see it's good for me. Yeah. So, anyway, so we had this discussion and I think the short version is he was like, 'Look, everything you think is bad is bad.' Like, so don't touch it. Exactly. He actually showed me these and whoever is watching and maybe I don't know if you can put it into the... like this. Yeah. So like this very famous... but it's so to the point meaning he's... David Nutt in the UK wrote a whole book about the misperception of drugs but this one like he had this one chart which David Nutt made and Rhina pulled it off in the internet where you can see sort of the harm of each drug. Yeah. So how much harm there was this harm scale and practically on number one is alcohol even in a holistic approach alcohol is the worst.
And then closely followed by heroin.
Which by the way the media used a little bit against David Nutt which was highly unfair because the headline I remember I think in the Sun or whatever was like oh guy says heroin is better than alcohol. No the thing is like they're both very, very bad like but alcohol is as well. We have these...
And this is the chart that says the harm to you and the harm to others.
Both. It's in one. So yeah, a chart that shows the harm that these different drugs have on you and others and alcohol is the worst.
Exactly. Always are worse, but closely followed by heroin. Yeah. And closely...
followed by crystal meth or whatever. Like everything is bad. And I really like if there is one positive outcome of people watching that don't do it. But don't do alcohol, don't do heroin, don't do crystal meth, don't do nothing. No, there is no by the way and I'm the most again pragmatic person because what I was talking with him was like is there any drug there could be a drug where you say oh it has a little bit of downside but it has enormous upside and then you can think for yourself again you are responsible I don't think the government should be responsible to think for myself is there any upside of me taking that risk because if I go in a car I came to you in a car so I took a risk of dying meaning very low But there was a risk. But I was it's worth to sit with Stephen and do that podcast. Like no, but everything we do in life, by the way, people should look at it's like risk return. Yeah. So maybe somebody says, "Oh, if I smoke a joint once in a while, it makes me so relaxed." Anyway, but you should be aware of the risks. And I think people aren't, especially not with alcohol. Yeah. And if you then still decide actively, I'm going to enjoy my glass of wine, then I think it's great, but you should know it anyway. So, but at the end of that scale it said probably at the very end is mushrooms, magic mushrooms and before the very end is the second sort of easiest or second lowest risk is LSD. Practically the psychedelic group of drug and he was like Christian like I can't tell you what my host told me to tell you that you should try alcohol. Don't meaning I can also tell you're not going to die but like don't do it. Yeah. Uh, but you should do actually magic mushrooms. And I was like, look, you're clearly insane. Like, I'm I've never drank alcohol and I'm not going to touch an illegal drug. Yeah. And he was very very persuasive because he was like, "Look, first of all, you do biotech. You started your career in biotech. Like, I send you all the research I did or I do." But also, which was very cool, hindsight. I didn't even value it back then. He was like, I did my PhD with famous Hoffman who invented LSD. So, so Rhino was replucked into like the old guard of psychedelic luminaries. And he was like, I sent you all what what he did like read it because there were all these studies. It's not like an crazy idea. Meaning again actually magic mushrooms or the ingredient psilocybin was used as an approved medical drug in the 50s by Sandoz actually very at least in Germany famous brand for for depression he was like look it was medical it has no risk as you can see I tell you as in the older studies at least read it and again I'm very curious I was like well send me I'm so that was actually again serendipity and so and now comes the biggest turnability because like so for one year I was just like not meaning it's not that I had it on my mind every day I was it was there like I read a little bit here and by the way again I know a lot there's even a book about that but which says what some people believe is destiny it's just like if you aware of a theme yeah it's a little bit like when I tell you don't think of the blue elephant or whatever you think of it like so there is this one book I can't remember the name which again would be fine for me like because again it works was like if you are aware of a thing of a theme then it pops up everywhere. So over a year there were not a lot because it was completely not in the public domain but like there were once here and there I was like okay read something again whatever and then more or less exactly one year later I was with my best friends who actually have a stake in Atai so they're happy with my best friends in the Caribbean. Uh so disclaimer, it was a place where where it's legal. Um and they had magic mushrooms and they had it like it looked like mushrooms. Like this was good because I I'm so hypochondriac and frightened of everything. So I would never have taken anything which didn't look like mushrooms. So these were dried mushrooms. Like so I was like see from the ground.
I was like okay that looks real like and they were like and I trust them. They're my best friends. Yeah. So big shout out to Landon and Julian. Yeah. So I trust them anyway. They were like, "We grew it ourselves." So like safe. We know what we're doing. Yeah. Um and I was like actually calling Rhino and
the guy you'd met in Germany.
Yes. So I'm not mentioning his last name because I don't know if he he works still in a very famous job. Uh and I he was actually saying the sentence, look, as your doctor friend do it. It's the best place, best people. You know it's real.
Setting everything is perfect. do it.
So, so I took all my courage I had. Um, I was really like and it's it sounds now I can't say how nervous I was in sort of both anxious and positive like but it was like really not maybe people say oh he's talking about magic mushrooms all the time. It must have been an easy decision. It was not. Yeah. For days and I was like okay let's do it. I still know exactly the point on the beach. Yeah. Uh because we're going there every Easter and somewhere I'm going to put a big magic mushroom statue here. Uh I really will. I really will. I know the guys who own the island. So I Yeah, they already know of it. Actually, the guy who owns the island is now a shareholder at Atai as well. So everybody is literally everybody. So um so I did it and it was the single most meaningful thing. Full stop. And by the way, it confirmed everything I just said. So because what a lot of people report is that um that um you it's a very spiritual experience and in that case it was not just a spiritual experience but it really confirmed 100% my fuel in life which is by the way interesting because if we look now at people because a lot of people ask me especially successful people they are like oh I've read somebody takes it and then he's want to be a farmer in Brazil. by the way, which was my biggest fear. My biggest fear was like I'm going to come out of that and I'm going to change my whole life because I realize that I don't know I want to do something else. Hindsight, I tell everybody that look at me and look at others. We have both. We have people like me who come out are very even more happy. But it for me it was a very big confirmation of what I'm doing. Yeah. Um because um Yeah. I don't mean not because like it was a confirmation like okay you see the world in the right way everything what you do how you do you can work on it so I got a lot of ideas how to make it better but like sort of the message was you're on the right path so some other people come out and the message is look you have to do something completely what is why is it different it's actually the same what it does I think one sort of how you say one description of of psychedelics is in general they you realize or you um you recognize yourself and all your sort of positive and all your dreams all your trauma and everybody has a bit of trauma must not be a real so everything and then and some people and then I was always hindsight I can say now I was right like I or I was right I I I was good in it I was always living a very honest life to myself again doesn't mean that I say hey I decided for example not to tell anybody I'm gay. But that's not from my point of view, this was not a lie because it's my decision. But it was not a lie to myself. Yeah. It was an active decision to just make my life. It was not suppressing it. That was just like pragmatically. Yeah. By the way, it was also very simple. There was also nobody to date. I was very simple like no. Exactly. Risk risk return. There was no upside because there was nobody who would have appreciated that. Yeah. And if there was would have been a hot guy and I was like he's gay, I'm gay. I was like, "Hey, immediately like but there was no upside but a lot of downside." Anyway, but what I'm saying is like I always lived a very honest life um to myself. Yeah. Again, this doesn't mean you have to shout everything out and this was confirmed. So other people who don't live an honest life to themselves and lie to themselves and maybe tell themselves that they are happy with XY Z, they might realize on a magic mushroom trip that they're not like they need and this is the other people who change. Yeah. So it's very dependent on yeah but it was just one aspect of so many positive aspects and then sort of I immediately after the trip had sort of the idea okay this should be actually legal I was actually not even the first impetus was not that I should make a company because I was very sure people must work on that stuff because it's so powerful and when I then found out actually it took me two years I was looking around like that there was none. Then we did it ourselves.
Just to go back to that point though, you you you categorize that moment, your first trip as the single most meaningful experience of your life.
full stop. Nothing comes close. And maybe I would add plus the follow on trips over the last year. So it's not just this one trip I would say as well, but I would I would I would summarize my psychedelic experience. And I still like try to do a trip once or twice a year in a country where it's legal. Yeah. I would summarize as the most meaningful sort of holistic experience I've had in my life. Full. Yeah. For sure. Like
you do this trip um on the beach with your friends, you you think to yourself, you know, this must be legal. Fast forward, you get a call from one of your friends called Mike.
No, it's way No, it's way crazier. It's way crazier. Again, super serendipity. So, fast forward for two years. I was very very carefully looking around and actually not telling a lot of people about it which was wrong and if I would have gone on like that I wouldn't sit here again meaning at least not now I would sit here maybe maybe but like not talking about mushrooms or psychedelics so for two years I was kind of extremely holding back so I told my closest friends actually the ones who knew me very well saw that or positive like my parents were like hey you became an even nicer child. We have an amazing relationship but it became even better. So my mom was very quickly saying something happened in your holiday. Yeah. I was like, "Yeah." So, so um so, so the ones who knew me well, but like I didn't shout it out and I was actually very very careful and shy because it's like technically Yeah. And back then, by the way, let's not forget like we're talking about it also now so easily because all the books came out, we have the success like Compass is listed like
now is completely different than so
anyway. So for two years I was very like lowkey. Yeah. And then I had be and again this is like maybe the biggest financial serendipity uh or like message of the universe if you want to see it like that because for two years I was sort of like just telling friends very close friends and then I had u one other trip within a holiday trip. The main message on that trip was Christian this makes you so happy you have to talk to other people about this don't be shy just good thing will come out things will come out if you talk about it so I had a real mission so I got this real mission on that trip to sort of be open about it and then actually from that holiday I was flying literally the week after I met a very close friend and business partner of mine Mike Novagratz um who's big in finance and like huge huge
yeah so but he's he's not what I want to say he's not the guy who would talk about mushrooms normally and I wouldn't have had but he was my test case because I had the mission the mission was don't be afraid talk about me because it's going to be good for you and the world
so I met Mike and he literally Mike he's always like that what's up because I think I do cool stuff like from other stuff so a lot of friends are always like hey what's new what's up what you investing in I was like Mike you won't believe it I just had a mushroom trip and this was amazing and I want to talk tell you about it and he was like this wa mushroom like I I remember Mike said the the sentence like he hasn't talked about it hadn't back then for like 20 years because especially in the US a lot of people it's like a college thing like
party and he was like 20 years never heard about it again since college so I
told him all of my experience on that trip um and in general or so and he was like very interested Yeah. And so the next day, literally the next day, my phone rings. Mike is on it and actually he said it. Yeah. He said, "Look, Christian, this is the weirdest coincidence." So since 20 years or I haven't talked about psychedelics for 20 years. Yesterday you were in my office talking about nothing else than psychedelics. And this morning my sister or sister called him. So my sister called me and she's on Bali with these crazy couple from London who told her they want to start a company which is working on bringing magic mushrooms back in the legal realm and they need somebody who's financing them and nobody wants to touch it. And I was like this is this is such a coincidence. You in London they in London like Yeah. And these are George and Katya the founders of of Compass. Yeah. And I was like connect me immediately. And I remember this was January and then we met when I was back and they were back from Bali in February um 2018.
And I they tell if we talk about like within the meeting I was like okay we going we're going to do that together. That's that's what I've waited for since 2 years. And again if I hadn't taken the decision to openly talk about it um I wouldn't have told Mike I wouldn't have met George and Katya. we wouldn't sit here, at least not sit here talking about this one.
And the magic mushrooms were the thing that told you to talk about it.
And you you end up being, you know, the single biggest investor in the space, a space which is now really sort of main becoming more mainstream at an alarming rate, a sort of a category that's exploded from a financial perspective. Um, and you've you've you've co-founded and invested in two the two biggest sort of companies in this area, Atai and Compass Pathways.
Exactly. So practically I co-founded both and Compass I was more the seed investor because it was George's and Katya's idea and I added actually a very close friend of mine Lars as the third co-founder and I was the seed investor but sort of I was there
even before the company existed we were sitting in my in my living room and planning it and then when I realized how positive or it was
actually easier is the wrong word but it was sort of I had I had expected more hurdles. Yeah. And it's maybe sadly actually the time which is helping us because there are so many people suffering and it becomes sort of also financially sometimes life is very the world functions very pragmatic like in the in the moment something becomes a big crisis also financially. Yeah. The yeah regulator. So anyway whatever it was it was the right time. So, Compass quickly actually got FDA fasttrack designation which was a big thing stuff like that. So, and then I actually realized oh there are more psychedelics out there than meaning everybody's always almost using magic mushrooms and psychedelics as the same but like we have the headline psychedelics a group of drugs and psilocybin the active ingredient in magic mushrooms is one of them. So there are more of them from MDMA to LSD, ketamine, ibogaine, whatever. And and compass wanted always to focus on um on psilocybin. So I was like, okay, then I'm starting Atai as sort of a platform where we actually bring on more more of these compounds to explore them for mental health issues.
Of all the compounds in Atai, and I know there's a lot of them, right? I think you've got over 13 compounds, different psychedelic compounds within Atai. Um, we've talked a lot about magic mushrooms and that the active compound in magic mushrooms for anybody that doesn't know is psilocybin, which is what Compass Pathways does of all the others and I know this is like I've heard you say before this is like choosing your favorite child. Which ones of the psychedelic compounds is incredibly compelling to you and really stands out is being able to have a really significant impact?
That's really hard to say. I really I really mean it because like it really meaning because they all have all all compounds we work on have a sort of reason to exist or positive like have a have a place in treating mental health issues hopefully.
Tell me about ibogaine then.
Yeah. So so then now what I want is the question is what is your what does somebody sees as the biggest problem? or name me the problem you think is the worst and then I tell you sort of which drug is the best like kind of so so so I think ibogaine is this is is interesting because also because ibogaine goes against addiction and there is actually almost nothing else which works for addiction so addiction we talk about here severe addiction like especially to opioids and heroin is sort of I don't know if you can say it on English really messed up like it's like that's one of the really severe mental stuff like where most people have um how do you call it like um
relapse relapse like and then it's also one of these sort of things if you look at I don't know families and friends where somebody is addicted sort of it's very like it's like cancer in in in in the social environment so it's sort of
it's it's but or I would even say any mental health is like it's always affecting others as well but I think addiction sort of stands out in a certain way and ibogaine is the only drug we know which potentially I always have to say with all these drugs potentially because we are about to prove it once and for all with scientific terms or with scientific framework FDA sort of compliant but ibogaine the potential to really cure addiction with one trip. Yeah. And that would be a massive game changer for the whole opioid crisis. Uh but even alcohol addiction like it's not just opio like Yeah. And Yeah.
you know, you're trying to you're trying to make people's lives better, right? You're trying to get them. It almost seems like, you know, because you've you've been gifted enough to be happy your whole life. You you're doing a lot to make sure other people can be happy on one end. But the other thing that you're doing, which also kind of blew my mind when I met you, is trying to extend life. You know, you've got Elon who's like trying to save life on Earth, but also take us to a new one. And it seems like, you know, Apeiron, your investment company is trying to make the life we live more joyous and fulfilled, but also trying to extend it. and the work you're doing with life longevity I actually find maybe even more bonkers like when I first heard about psychedelics I was like really and then I spent 6 months nine months learning and I was like oh my god like I get it but life longevity for me is like really we can really we can really extend our lives and you you've got companies which are working on that challenge so tell me about life longevity is it possible
I Well, okay. Let's so so so let's phrase it correctly. Like because even I if I want to sort of some say something very um pokey, I'm like, "Oh, we're going to live forever." Yeah, that's not going to happen for an accident reason. Meaning, yes, you could say maybe we live forever if we really upload our brain to our computer, but that not that I think that's completely impossible, but I think then we're not human anymore. That's a different discussion. Like so. But I would say as long as we stay fairly human, meaning having a body, having sort of the human setup we have. Yeah. There will always be an end. Let's start there because the worst case if you live hundreds of years, you're going to have an accident somewhere and somebody blows you up. You have a By the way, it's going to as a side note, I think it's going to change once we get older and older. It's going to change the way how we look at risk because I already start avoiding crazy stuff because I'm like it's not worth it. Again, risk return. Like I have this one colleague I always try to convince he's 50 and he drives a motorbike and I'm like you shouldn't do it. Like the sort of statistical risk is so big of driving a motorbike. And his answer is well because he's still thinking his his life expectancy is 70. He's like, "Well, but I'm exchanging 20 years if it happens against my biggest passion, and this is a trade-off worth it." And I was like, "Well, a it's already stupid, but if you if you It's okay if this is your opinion, 20 years against the risk of losing it. But I tell you like it's not 20. You already if you're 50, I'm going to get you up or we going to get you up with longevity science to maybe 90 or 100 by the way, in a good way. So would you exchange 50?" And then suddenly you see okay then he starts thinking because so and now think it a little bit further like if you say hey our natural life experience someone will be 200 maybe we stop doing stuff we're doing now because it could sort of yeah so but back to your question like longevity never means immortality because again as long as we stay kind of human because there's an accident risk by the way I also believe spiritually again that we don't want to live forever I I think part of being human again as long as we stay that and we can talk about that as well because it's another thing I'm thinking a lot maybe we don't stay human in our current form but as long so I think to part of being human is having an end
because that makes everything we do so I
just don't want it now like I want to have more of it but I think the the sort of the li that there is a time limit on being human is actually which makes us thrive yeah and which makes us
everything special. So I don't think I want to take that away. I just want to extend the joy. Yeah.
Then doesn't it just become relative again then? So if you live to 150 but
wait so so what I really believe what we get in the next maybe like 30 20 to 30. It's come it's I think it's going to come way quicker than people think is that we're going to get life expectancy up to to a time or to a to a to a to a size to a magnitude where we want to die. And I think it's even like this will be a range and some people might already say 100 I had it all. I had enough birthdays, enough Christmases and so some people want to maybe live to 300. But I think we going to give people that optionality sooner than we think. And then I think dying will be like this is my vision like it's a celebration. I would someone say look guys I had it all. I love you love life but I really think I'm ready for whatever comes. Maybe comes nothing. I don't know but like I have an expectation but like yeah but whatever it is I'm going to finish it now. Throw a big party. Say goodbye to everybody and then go out on my own terms on my own time. I think that's going to be sooner than we think.
You whispered that I have an expectation.
Well, I think there is another life. Like I think it's a continuous uh cycle. But that's not a spiritual question like but like I I very much believe we have an eternal soul. Yeah. I don't even think there is a number. But first of all I again I come back which gives me a lot of thing. I don't believe in the Christian thing that we have anything to prove. That's already starts because it means you're not worthy and you have to prove yourself worthy. It's like you I think everybody should be deeply happy and do exactly what he he or she feels is the right thing to do. No, by the way, again, this is I think what people realize on the on the psychedelics is like they I always like to say like which is maybe a good way to describe a psychedelic trip like since we're young and again maybe my parents were like better than other parents in avoiding that but since we're baby people start telling us what we should do what we should not do how we should be how we should think how we should and I always say like there is your soul somewhere like what the form of your soul is like but there is somewhere the level of you you and again the problem is when we have this discussion what I want to avoid why I'm sometimes so blurry is that if you start using religious terms then some people might be set off yeah or pushed away because if I use the word soul or god then uh a Christian person might have a different reaction than a Muslim person than a um than a Hindu person yeah interestingly a lot of people who went through psychedelics have sort of the same description because so so anyways it's by trying to use as neutral worlds as possible. So let's call it soul or inner you or whatever and then you have all these sort of external sort of um garbage almost what other people put on you. Yeah. And and I think some people literally lose sight what they really are and want. So and I actually was always very good. So what I realized under my trip that sort of so what happens under a trip sort of all this garbage is taken away. So you really look at you
but you and your real naked sort of
form like form I mean like you recognize yourself all your fears all your wishes all your whatever. Yeah. And interestingly it was for me it was still a great experience but it was not so different. So which told me
okay I did a good job before
psychedelics to sort of be again true to myself and I I don't believe in what what some faith say that that oh you have to be worthy because you are worthy yeah and you are great you just should live the life as sort of it is fit for you and again this is for everybody it's different but you need to know it yeah so so but to so this is my belief and then so and so so there is no okay I have it's not like a computer game where you have to reach a level and do certain things and then come to the next one. I just think it's like an endless positive sort of cycle of experiences. Yeah. So, and I'm definitely know that somewhere and I'm going to want to go to to the next level is the wrong word to the next experience. Yeah. Um but for now I want to actually extend this one.
A lot of people don't get to live and this is what I was thinking is like this this idea that people will get to a point in their life where they say you know what I've had enough. This has been great. I would you do you genuinely believe you'll get to a point where maybe 150 whatever where you think
I think some it's going to happen like I maybe it's very late meaning I hope but again I think this is the ultimate meaning I'm already pissed about the government interfering in in my stuff in any way but the biggest interference is death it's not my I don't choose the time I don't choose like and we need to change that so I think the biggest sort of liberty everybody has will be choosing his or her own
Yes, but you'll always be curious. The world will always be changing. There'll always be
something go on like a long time.
