Episode 53: Christian Angermayer - Founder of Apeiron Investment Group

Thanks for having me.

It's like so long. Where do we start? Like many guests, it was in Bavaria. It was in a very rural area. I grew up in a kind of 150-person village. Then when I was nine, I moved to the next bigger town, which was like two and a half thousand people. So all very, very rural. Very like, really like, meaning I was what is in America that show like out of the 50s where children live in the countryside, like one of these TV things. I was playing outside in winter, in summer. There was no crime, there was no drugs. Yeah, very, very sheltered and very, I think, basic in a good meaning. And I loved that. I think it took... I actually really think back a lot on my childhood and I loved it. And I also loved high school and everything because it was such a, how you say, such a sort of small cosmos. You knew exactly what's right and exactly what's wrong. You know, when you do this, this is actually what I'm missing the most. So I think, meaning that's, I think in general, the beauty of going to high school or whatever is, or in the time till you're like 18, you kind of have a framework and you more or less, maybe you are the exemption because you're already investing, whatever. But like, so it's great what you're doing, but also I tell you, you're going to look back and say, ah, like the normal stuff was great. Because like what I'm missing a bit is like if you're doing the job I'm doing and you started to do, it's like it's never enough, kind of not in a bad way, but like if you're ambitious, like I can always do one more interview. I can always do one more investment.

There's no end state. And in high school, you kind of knew, you know what, in Germany, it's in July, the year ends. If I was very good, so if I have an A+ everywhere, there's the end state. There is no more. And then I'm going to go for six weeks on summer holiday and like I'm completely off and whatever. And I even think like I had, I never had that. I think the only thing which comes close to that is when people switch jobs. Because sometimes they, okay, I tell everybody who's applying or coming to us, I was like, hey, as much as I want you right now, maybe go for a month or two, just travel the world or whatever. Because like it's so rare. And I never had that. That's the one, I mean, and it's like white girl problems because my life was amazing, but like the one thing, like I went out of high school and literally started my first company like a year later. And since then I'm like doing what I'm doing. And the only time which comes close is Christmas. I have like a week or so where the world slows down, but I never had that break ever again what summer holidays in high school give you. And I'm missing it a bit.

So, so yes, so first of all, credits to them. So I was kind of at the right time at the right place. I actually had just started studying economics because I thought I always wanted to be an entrepreneur and there was no role model around where I grew up. So but so nobody knows actually if you, the lucky thing is I look like my parents a bit. So meaning because people always make the joke, oh, are these really your parents, in a nice way. But they so like sort of different in terms of their jobs, what they had, whatever. So and also about the whole village, the whole family, there was no entrepreneur. So nobody ever knew why I want to be that. But I knew it since I'm literally since I'm six. Like my mom remembers that the first thing I did when I learned writing was writing invoices. So I love to do other things as well. I loved actually, I loved gardening a lot. I love to whatever. But everything I started doing, like I then sold to my parents. I was not the one who went up to my parents and said, oh, like this is what I did. Here's a present. I was like, no, here's the invoice. And I sold it to the neighbors and to the family members. So everything for me was a business. And so I thought I should study economics, which is wrong choice for being an entrepreneur. But anyway, so because I had no role model, like how do I figure it out? Then though I had a scholarship for science and sort of literally in the first session with these guys, they, I was like, hey, let's not talk about the, how you say, the flowers and the bees. Like tell me what's on your mind. Like what's going to be a product, a medication in 20 years from now? And luckily they had an idea. Yeah, it didn't even have a name, now it's called RNAi. And they talked about it. And I also want to admit, like I understood only vaguely where they want to go. But I had a good feeling for, oh wow, I think I know what you want to do guys. And if this is going well, if this is working, that's a multi-billion dollar business. So I was like, hey, let's do it together. They looked at me like, have you done businesses before? And they had this tutoring business when I was like, I started when I was 14. So I was not lying when I said I had a business before. It was also not like a problem. It was sort of in between. So anyway, but we did it together and very quickly it became very clear that they were onto something huge. There were then some other companies in the same field and then already four years later, so 2004, we went public in the US via SPAC merger. And so and we kept the name of the SPAC which was called Alnylam. Yeah, that's still so I, this I left then around the time but and I was never full-time. I was always the guy, the founder who took care of fundraising. But then in parallel, I had started building up sort of my own mini venture firm and started investing in other companies.

It was both. Like first of all, the guys were my tutors and you kind of at this age at least you look up to these people. So they were definitely, even in absolute terms, some of the smartest people in biology and science, but like they were kind of the only one I knew. So I had no, if you want to be silly, I had no reference for me. They were obviously amazing because they were my tutors. Yeah. And again, and they were very smart. And then the idea though, also credit to them, they were able to tell the idea in a way that I understood it and it became, I think it was a very good pitch so to say, because it was simplified said like you look at the human DNA or viral RNA and you can switch off certain sort of parts who express for example a genetic disease, which I was like, okay, wow, like big market because like there is nothing at the moment which works for genetic diseases. Now it is, but like big story back then was nothing, only things which would sort of try to prevent for example the expression but nothing which kind of sort of solves the root cause of being a genetic issue. So anyway, so they pitched it well, so it was kind of both, like understanding the technology and the potential size of the market and trusting the two guys that they know what they're talking about.

I think that I do really well. I think that is what I wanted to. The only other choice I was ever considering, which is very weird because it's on the other end of like, but I did a lot of tutoring. So when I, so my first business was a tutoring company and I love to explain. So the only thing I could have imagined would have become a teacher or professor because I love both. I love to explain things. I think I'm very good in it. So I think I'm good in breaking down. So I was really also good in coaching these other kids. So they I think in average became really much more successful. And I was also, and I loved that. I love to also talk about things. That's why I'm here. Yeah. Which excited me. I was always very open and always, yeah. So that's why teacher, professor was the only other choice I could have seen.

Well, so first of all, it's very, because like it's especially worse in Europe. So, and that's by the way one of the sad things about Europe. It's not, we talk about like entrepreneurship, whatever. Not that Europe doesn't have great entrepreneurs, but like the bar where people call you successful and then also though where people are themselves saying, look, ah, this is enough, like is super low. There was one of the very first things when I became friends with Peter Thiel, what he was like complaining about, and he's so right, when he was like, hey, in Europe people make a 50 million exit. Yeah. And they're like, wow, I made it. Like I'm going to retire now. Yeah. And this was exactly, by the way, what everybody told me in my family, my friends, because like when Alnylam went public and became a billion in 2004, I had millions and I had more than anybody ever else in my family. And I had also more than I would have expected because I never thought about money per se. I thought about what I want to do. So, and yeah, everybody said like you need to retire, like put the money on the account and like harvest your interest rates and then you have like I don't know 100,000 a year. I was like what? Like so I mean I don't even know, like it's also not so, like even now by the way maybe fast forward, like now it's even more extreme. Like yeah, obviously I could sell everything and then have an, now I could really have an amazing life without working, but it doesn't, it's not even, I'm not even thinking about it. Like I'm actually, there have, I only have a few days where when I'm super stressed, yeah, not in a good way and like and I'm kind of getting annoyed for a second and I remind myself that everything I'm doing every morning, yeah, I put it on myself so I could, and that gives me by the way a lot of peace. Like I always tell myself, look, if you don't like it anymore Christian, then you could say stop. It most likely would take me a year or two or three or whatever to wind it down, yeah, or put people in place and manage whatever the long-term investments and just go on my yacht. Yeah. But I really couldn't imagine doing that because I really have fun. Like also like there was very important, like sort of, as you might know, like psychedelics is one of my core topics. Yeah. And there was also like I just talked about another podcast, there was a fun and wrong thing what Marc Andreessen said publicly because he was like, oh, he's seeing too many founders who take psychedelics and then don't want to be a founder. So, and his takeaway, which is very wrong, was, oh, psychedelics has the risk of changing people. And now, apparently real, I thought it was a joke, but people told me it's real, he's putting a non-psychedelic clause in his investment agreements. And I think it's actually the opposite. So, I think psychedelics 100%, I can say with all the knowledge, like they do not change you, but what they do, they show you who you really are. So, and yes, there might be some people who are living a lie, but mostly to themselves. Yeah. And they might realize, look, I don't want to do what I'm doing. So, and I see that's obviously very bad for the investors. But like the better way to put it was like I think every investor should say before anybody starts a company, do a psychedelic trip. Yeah. And I can, I really, it speaks to me because like this was my one and only worry when I took my, when I did my first mushroom trip in 2014. Long story behind, like so I didn't actually really want to do it, like but it sort of led up to all of that. And the one worry I had because even back then there were like these urban legends, oh, you change, whatever, was what the fuck is when I'm coming out and want to be a farmer in Argentina or in whatever in Africa. So I was a tiny bit worried about that. But for me, which I think gave me a lot of kind of satisfaction and also I maybe it's, I always credit to my parents because like if I went into a psychedelic trip and actually the message was, Christian, you're actually like, you're pretty fine, like you're doing exactly what you want to do, what you're meant to do, and then sort of the message was like a little bit like, oh, like here, like adjust here, just here a bit, but overall this is what you want to do in life, sort of go full speed of doing that. And I'm still like thinking that's the right sort of, or I'm sort of set up for the right thing. But anyway, but like, well, we came to that. Sorry, I diverted. But like that's what I, that's why it never occurred to me your question like, oh, should I have just taken the money, put it on the account and stopped it, like was like not in the cards.

But it was even more, if you want the very spiritual story, it was even crazier. And it is like even my, this was very crazy. Like because I, so I had my first trip in 2014. Yeah. And it was so positive and I knew a lot about it. It's really, by the way, I want to make the disclaimer. It's very important. Because when I guess like a lot of younger people listen to your podcast, but any people of any age. So what we're doing now with Atai and Compass, but my main holding is Atai, stock market listed. What we're doing now is bringing back various psychedelic medicines into the medical world. So, I don't want people to try it out recreationally. I, by the way, I think any recreational drug is bad. Especially though, alcohol, we should talk about that. I think the big blessing in my life was that for various reasons, I never tried alcohol because it's pure poison. Yeah. And I think it really is very bad for people both physically and spiritually. But like, but also psychedelics are not meant to be sort of tampered with. Like we're bringing them back mentally, hopefully medically. Hopefully already, it's going fast now because of a presidential order. Let's say latest early next year, the first psychedelic, psilocybin, will be available to be taken with a clinician under medical guidance. And that's how they're meant to be taken. By the way, over 10,000 years of histories, we always took them very in a controlled, structured way. And that's how they really unfold everything sort of. I'm saying now it's very important. So don't say, oh, Christian told me on a podcast mushrooms and go out this weekend. Like, no. And by the way, the other, I know I'm a bit of a party pooper, but the other thing which I deeply, deeply believe, if I look at the human brain, it kind of is only fully formed with 21, 22, like let's say 21, but it's already on the earlier end. And like I know I sound super boring, but like I think the blessing of my life was that I did zero recreational drugs. Not just till I was 21, but literally actually till now, unless you want to call psychedelics that, then I did the first time in my 30s. But like don't drink alcohol. By the way, weed makes you dumb. There's actually, and it's not me believing that or it's not a Christian subjective idea. It's the stats. And by the way, I believe I'm semi-scientist. I dropped out, but like I'm doing a lot of science. Like look up, like for everybody who's more interested, look up the three words David and then not Nutt, which is a name, David Nutt is a very famous neuroscientist, and then chart, because he wrote a whole book about the downside of recreational drugs and how to measure it. Because it's so like we're talking about that stuff and it's a lot of like blurry blah blah blah and he measured it and the outcome was like the number one risk, they're all bad, yeah, except of psychedelics. Psychedelics literally in his chart is, I'm not, have almost no downside. Again, and still I would not do them early in 21, but like alcohol is worse than heroin, then comes heroin, whatever, everything is super bad. And I think all the especially young people who are listening to you, because like you know you're ambitious more than the average here, but like if you want to achieve something in life, I think one of the biggest hacks is not doing recreational drugs as long as you can push it, and especially weed by the way, because it makes you dumber and slower, scientifically.

And how did this kind of idea and belief lead to Compass and Atai? So yeah. So, but so okay, that is very, because like it's kind of counterintuitive. So I always thought I will never again try touch anything which is a recreation drug. So now I think psychedelics are not a recreation drug. They're medical. But at the time I tried it they were recreational. So and how it came was actually exactly like that. I was like, again, never tried alcohol so far. Never tried weed. Never tried cocaine. Did nothing. The worst so to say is coffee. And then I was at dinner in 2013. I bursted in and very rare. Like the good thing is one of the reason I drink zero alcohol is because people stop bothering you. Like yeah, I know, like especially in high school, but still like so weird if you don't drink alcohol, you just realize how pushy our society is on something which is pure poison. So I always was bizarre. So but people kind of stopped because even when I did business, like I did one deal in China decades ago, like or Mongolia where people really drink hard. Yeah. And everybody knows like, hey, we're not bothering Christian with alcohol. Yeah. So, but on this one birthday dinner, and again, I'm personally very spiritual, so I believe things happen for a reason. At this one birthday dinner, the birthday person said, ah, like you should drink a glass of champagne with me like on my birthday. You're not going to die. Like, yeah. And but then it was like, hey, here's a very famous neuroscientist at my birthday. And I seated you next to him because maybe he can loosen you up a bit. So I was annoyed at first but then I sat down and then I was like, ah, take that as an opportunity and talked to this guy and was like, hey, why don't we go through all the drugs? Like I wanted to be a little bit punchy. I was like, hey, if you want to talk to me about alcohol, and I also want to learn about everything else, yeah, and what they do, because I'm an investor and founder, that means I look at anything in life through an upside-downside lens. What does it give me and what do I have to pay for it? And I was like, let's go then through everything to whatever, to consider bad stuff as well. And then the outcome was like, by the way, everything which you think is bad is very bad. Yeah. They all have upsides, like if you do crystal meth, well, you can maybe work a little bit harder for a while and then you're fucked. So but the worst is alcohol. So and at the end of that evening though, after we went through everything and I concluded literally that everything is bad or is not worth the trade. That's maybe the right way to put it. It's not worth the trade. Yeah. At the very end of the evening, he was like, but look, there are psychedelics and they have practically, done properly, zero downside, but they make you happy and they cure mental health issues. And I looked at, I was like, okay, fascinating. But I am happy. Yeah. Like I, upside, but that's the one thing I was really always very satisfied with, that I kind of my baseline is happy. Yeah. And then but he was like, ah, I send you the research. And I was like, okay, I'll look at it. And then so then this world opened to me then because like sort of for a year actually this guy sent me research, I was reading about it, because some psychedelics were already a medication in the last century, so there was data about it. And I was like, okay, this is very fascinating, but still I was like, why should I do it? Like I'm not looking for more happiness. And then one year later I was in the Caribbean with friends, they had homegrown mushrooms. And I was like, you know what? Something inside me, again, I believe in that, told me go for it. Like that's the thing you should try. And then I did mushrooms, was super positive, very meaningful, and but especially also confirmed everything. And this was the long story I came to that. Then I came out of it and as an entrepreneur you look at opportunities and I really, and it's so rare, like I had it twice with psychedelics and Enhanced Games so far, where I encounter something where literally 99% of the people very deeply even think the opposite. So at the time, by the way, the world has changed a lot and mostly thanks to the work we're doing, because now psychedelics we're discussing it, whatever. But in 2014, psychedelics were seen as equally bad than heroin, which is like don't even know what to say to that. But it was the general belief. Yeah. And I came out of it and was like, holy shit. Like if this is doing this amount of positivity and add-on happiness to me as a very happy person, I can see what the studies of the 60s have shown that psychedelics have the potential to cure various forms of mental health issues. So, but then actually for two years I was like thinking and everybody I just brainstormed with, even I don't want to call people out but and they meant it well, like even very close friends who are very like known for being super contrarian, whatever, like a little bit too crazy. That is like the line, like touching, by the way it was a Schedule I drug, it still is technically, which means worse than heroin. Yeah. So everybody was like, I'm the adviser of the president of Rwanda, I did a lot with the German government at the time, and everybody was like, no Christian, like too much, like. And I but I was very convinced but like I was, how do you say, pondering it for a while. So then came the 29th of December 2016. I know the date. I know where I was, like I know everything. And I was in holiday, did again mushrooms, and then for the ones like, it is actually, who don't know, is a very deep spiritual experience. And if I want to say it very short, but people maybe would use other words. So when I say you meet God, then some people are like, oh my god, I don't believe in God, but everybody kind of who comes out says, okay, I met something bigger than me. Some call it thoughts, some call it soul, some call it the divine essence of the universe.

There is something spiritual and metaphysical in my... this session was like the whole message. And you learn something I call message, but like you just maybe it's also realization which is already there in your brain. I don't even want to make it that it's something outside of you, but anyway the whole realization was: Christian, you have to go out, you have to talk to... and by the way I really mean it. The message was like go out and from now on in every meeting with a new contact, new person, you have to mention mushrooms. It's really like almost like a... yeah, it's like a mission. And like since the 29th of December 2016, I did that. Every new person I met in my life. Yeah. By the way, if it's a head of state or if it's whatever, like I'm going to talk about psychedelics. Yeah. And I had funny anecdotes where I don't know, my colleagues were like we go on a road show in Saudi Arabia but you cannot do that. I was like okay then I'm not going to go because that's really... I believe as long as I do that, it's almost like a lucky charm. And actually Saudi even, they loved it anyway. So, but it's getting very funny now because like I flew to New York from the holiday and the very first meeting luckily of the new year in 2017 I had with Mike Novogratz. So, and I go into his office and I was really very nervous because I was like, he's like the first person I need to do that now. And by the way, I was not like how you say, I was not used to it. So I go into Mike's office and I don't know if you had Mike on it already. Have you?

Yeah. So, Mike is very luckily very like positive and amazing human being. So, I go into Mike's office and we talk a bit and he's like, 'What's new with you, Christian?' I will never forget it. And I was like, 'Well, Mike, have you ever talked about mushrooms?' And he was like, 'No, I have not.' Like, I mean, he's like, 'I've done it in college.' So, I give him my whole like what I knew back then. Yeah. And he was like, 'Oh, this is very interesting.' I was like, 'You should try it.' Like, yeah. So, and then I go out and the next morning he calls me and said, 'Christian, this is the most bizarre.' And it really, if you think about it, like he was the very first person I talked to. He himself had not thought about mushrooms since college. And then right after my meeting the next morning with him, his sister calls him. She was in Bali at a yoga retreat and had a yoga session with George and Katya who later became with me the founders of Compass. And they told her about that they thinking about doing a mushroom company but nobody wants to invest. So she called her brother and her brother was like, 'Wait, Christian was here last night.' And so she's... again, you can always say it's coincidences. I don't believe in them. This is too much of a bizarre coincidence. So this is how I met George and Katya. I was immediately, I give you the money. That's how we started Compass. And then so Compass is solely focused on psilocybin. And then there's many other psychedelics. Shortly after I started Atai to really do the whole suite of psychedelics.