Hello and welcome to Let's Chat. Let's Chat is a live podcast where I talk with creators about live streaming and the ways that streamers and their community shape culture yesterday, today, and in the future.
Um I get on the game, have a good time, talk to chat, and just enjoy the moment.
It's what the It's what the kids enjoy these days.
You cannot lay the next brick without the one that comes before it.
I mean, it took me so much time.
Time. Time is the most valuable resource in the entire world.
And I still want to collaborate with a lot of different communities and sort of be the bridge between them.
Hello. Welcome to Let's Chat. Um we are live here at TwitchCon and for everybody online, thanks for being here. Everybody in the audience, thank you. I'm Dan Clancy, the CEO of Twitch, and today we are here with Jelly and No Grainer.
Yeah. Uh TwitchCon is a good time. That TwitchCon is a good time. It's early in the morning here. If you're watching from abroad, uh we uh we had a good time.
Yeah. And um it's great to be with Jelly. Um we actually just met yesterday.
Yeah, you started rapid-firing questions. I was like, 'Hey, keep it for the Let's Chat.'
for tomorrow, so I didn't know nothing about him. No, I I did a little research. Did a little research. And we also We're going to have to recreate the conversation we just had because actually it was a really good conversation. But
But given that we are live on Twitch now, I am sure there is somebody watching.
Okay, that wants you to give just a quick story of Jelly and all the freaking set the quick. I said quick.
Quick. We'll keep it quick.
Wow. Well, uh my name's Jelly. I'm a Dutch guy, which actually is funny cuz I'm in my home country right now, but I don't live here anymore. I moved out about 10 years ago. I've been a creator for 15-plus years, even though I'm 29. This is a weird industry. You I'm an old guy here in this industry now. It's weird. I play video games Yeah, you look old. I was going to say you look a little old. Yeah, thank you, bro. Thank you. Thank you, dad. Um no, I play video games for a living. Uh right now focusing on GTA for obvious reasons. Still waiting. It's been 13 years since the last game out. That's That GTA 5 is the reason my career kicked off. I will say I I I think this time it is coming hell or high water. I can't wait. I think it's happening. I think it's happening. it's happening. No doubt. 100% I know it's happening. There's no more delays. Yes. No No more further information I can say. No, I'm kidding. I wish so. Right, I can't either. I can't either.
Um okay, so let's go back. I think 2010
is when you started. Uh yeah, I don't know the year. I think around there. Something like that. I mean, I've been doing it ever since I was like a kid. Like really like go back to when you were a kid though. Yeah. Let's go back to your kid and tell the story of talk about that, you know, how you just started to do it. You know. Okay, so A, I loved video games, right? So, I was playing a game called Runescape at the time, which is actually still semi-popular on Twitch. well, yes, because if you if you loved Runescape you Runescape you still play Runescape. I think Runescape came out in 2004, so I was 8 years old and I was grinding that game. Yeah. I didn't really care too much about school, which I I'm not the greatest example, I suppose, but Runescape Runescape So, all the all the parents may not want their young kids listening to this. I I don't know. Hey, it turned out fine for me, so there is there are chances. So, Runescape was a great game. Loved that to death. And um there was this trend going on of people recreating music videos uh like MTV music videos on actually YouTube in the game Runescape. And I wanted to do that to do that, too. So, I downloaded the the at the time called HandiCam, which basically records your screen. It's like pre-OBS days. And I just like typed the lyrics and just created a little music video. And I was like maybe 10 years old at the time.
And because the the creator space wasn't as flooded yet, you know, it was kind of easy to get like 100 views, 200 views. And that was exciting.
That was really exciting. So, my first Christmas present that I can really remember is I asked my parents, I want to have a camera. I want to have a camera to record my screen and record things outside and record my face and and whatever. And I got that one. I think I was like 11, 12 years old and that's just kind of when it rolled.
Yeah.
So, it's it's kind of I don't I don't remember doing anything else.
I've never had a real job.
I've never flipped burgers.
Well. Well, well, well, and in terms of when you were so into it, when you were still in high school
and all that, did you start building an audience while you were still in high school or had you left high school when the audience start getting
Yeah, so I think I was around 13, 14 years old and I had a channel with So, this is like 15, 16 years ago. I had a channel with like 3, 4,000 subs and I was playing a lot of Call of Duty at the time. This is like Call of Duty 4. I can't remember the year. And then Rockstar Games actually announced a game called GTA 5.
Yeah, that's when they announced it. I was a big GTA fan at the time, so I created a brand new channel called GTA 5 videos, which is 3 years pre-GTA 5 release. So, this is 16 years ago, I guess. And that channel blew up. I think that was my first channel with 100 100k subs at the time. And I started making decent money. I remember I got locked in with some crazy contracts cuz all these companies from the US start calling you for money and it was terrible, but
you know, still I was doing pretty well for myself. I was a young little boy, yeah.
And and now did were you then cool in school or not?
Did that venture cuz you know another than generally the the kids that love gaming aren't the cool kids in school but that
like the most popular. I was like kind of medium, you know.
But but was it since you were online doing stuff was it like oh wow, that's kind of that's kind of interesting.
work, they laugh at you. Like if it works, they they're like they look up to you.
So um I suppose it's a little bit of both, you know. I wasn't like the most popular but I wasn't like being bullied or anything.
Right, right, right. I I do think what the interesting thing I think what you're is is so true that like um of course there's all these challenges being online but when you're in high school you have this both sides cuz if anything you somebody doesn't like then it's just more more immediate, you know.
Yeah. Well, I didn't stay very long. I dropped out when I was Actually, I wasn't even allowed to legally drop out. I hope I can say this but I talked to my what is it called? In Dutch you call it a mentor. I don't know what it's what the English name is and I just I just told him hey dude, like this is my passion. This is what I want to do.
parents were how did your parents feel about it? Were they like
They were they gave me one gap year to make it work. They said I'll give you one year. If it works out, good for you. We'll give you another year and if it doesn't work out, you're going straight back.
And luckily it worked out. So yeah, I think I was 16, 17 at the time and I just said see you later guys, I'm not coming back.
All right. So so so of course, you know, back in when Twitch came around back 2000, you know, 10, 11, 12 and all that. Of course a lot of the YouTube gaming creators one thing that I've often said is you know, one thing that works so well Twitch is if you were a YouTube gaming creator the one thing you had to do to create a 20-minute or an hour video was game for 3 hours.
Right? And then Twitch came along and was like, 'Oh, wait. You mean I can have people watch me?' And but you interestingly didn't I mean you dabble, but you didn't do that back then.
You know, in some ways that was of course there are a number who did it, but you're a little distinctive in that when when live streaming. So, what when back then back in when you know, it started you know, 2013, 14, why wasn't live streaming something that you know,
Well, I I'll be very realistic, Dan. The YouTube space and just the creator space in general was still very young. And for so for somebody to just make a living off of it in general was like a rare thing. So, when something that fragile is happening, you don't want to risk it or do anything else. So, my main thought was I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing here. This is going to be 100% or 110% of my focus and I know I can make money somewhere else. I know I can grow an audience somewhere else. I know I can do what it like other things, but this is what's working, so that's what I'm going to keep doing now.
When did you did you try live streaming back then or not?
I did. I think in 2000 and God, I I can't remember the years. It's so long, Dan. A long time ago. Like 10 years ago. I was actually Twitch partner at the time already. And I did do some streaming.
Did you enjoy it or was it kind of like an answer to that?
I enjoyed streaming, actually. Yeah, I really enjoy streaming cuz you can be a little bit more true to yourself. And you can just actually have like genuine fun with your audience, right? Whereas the video, especially these days, it's just like over edited. It's in production for a week. It's not you know, it's it's it's not TV level, not even close, but there's more things going on. With Twitch or streaming in general, you just hit live.
Have one idea, just hit live.
Yep. There's nothing nothing else to it. And your audience loves it.
Yep. And now now you've been streaming a little more over for last year. years. little bit more lately. It's It's just been you know, in the back of my head and I'll be realistic as well. Like I'm focusing less on on YouTube content these days. I used to post two videos a day.
Two a day for 6 7 years straight.
Now I'm posting two a week in a good week.
Yeah. And how long how long are your videos usually?
30 to 40 minutes at the moment.
But they do take a good 2 weeks to produce.
Are are the are the two that you you used to be two a day, now two a week, but is there has the production value changed in the two a week from the two a day?
Okay. So talk about that. Talk about how the production value, you know, and how you think about the storytelling and all that.
in general as well. That's the creator space, you know, you need to you need to like always level up yourself and and be better than your your biggest competitor, right? Um because if you are at the top, you're going to get comfortable there and you're going to stop innovating. And so the the only way to catch the top is to to innovate beyond them and to do things that are better than than what they are doing. Think differently. And so um when I was doing really well on YouTube and I was posting two videos a day, that was really working for me. But at the same time, a lot of smaller creators, they were they were leveling up their their production game. They were had better hooks. They had better thumbnails. They had better edits. They had everything figured out better. They weren't performing better at the time, but you know, eventually because I was very comfortable, eventually that catches up, you know? So that's just that's just the space in general. People will always catch up to you if you stop innovating.
And so uh I've also been in the news for a long time. I'm not going to do the daily grind anymore. I mean, that's that was very stressful.
So if you if you wanted to produce more, you could you could produce more in terms of the team and all that, right?
I could definitely post more. I I could probably double it, uh but it's just not something that I would want to do right now.
Maybe uh maybe around 6 months time.
What about short What about short form content?
Uh short form is a tricky one. I don't really get it, to be honest. It's fun.
I said you're an old man.
Right? All these all the all these youngsters with this short form stuff.
Short form is something as a creator you have to do. You don't really want to do it, in my opinion.
Um it doesn't really make you any money. There's no real revenue model. It grows your audience to an extent, but then you realize it doesn't actually translate to anything. Right. So, I wish it never it I wish it never existed in a way, but it does. We'll just have to live with it.
Interestingly Interestingly, one of the things I often think about and this is there's really been this arc. If you go back to pre-YouTube, right? You think of the the number of people that could creatively build something that could translate to linear TV. Right? The number of people in the world that had that creative vision and all that smaller. Then YouTube camera, the number of people that could creatively express a vision increased exponentially because, you know, because of YouTube and cameras and all that. Um but of course, creating a 5-to-10-minute video that's good is actually pretty hard.
Okay. Creating a 30-second short, God, who can't do that, right? And so in some ways, right? The creative I suspect one of the reasons too is there's something about the creative the uniqueness and the creative expression when you have more time and it's just so short.
Yeah, I mean making or standing out in general will always be hard because there's always people that are doing thinking things differently and maybe doing things better. Uh but I think because shorts are just short form content, you can do a whole lot more of them and experiment a lot more. So, uh
It's a volume game sometimes. It's interesting. It's a volume game as opposed to saying cuz you put two out a week and you work to make sure each one of those are good.
Right? Part of the strategy in short form is more more more and let the algorithm figure out which ones are good.
And to be honest, when one pops, you think, 'Now I figured it out.' And then you recreate it, you you change the hook slightly, or you you you upload the exact same thing, and the second time it just doesn't work.
It's like it's like the time of day and the hour of the day you uploaded matters. It I don't really There's no real
Okay, I have a I have a great thread to go on here. Which I I have a big belief there's always this um uh blend, okay, of um uh uh raw talent, okay, hard work, and luck, okay? And in any endeavor, it's some, you know, blend of those things.
So, talk about yourself and how much of your success and and try to be honest in terms of cuz we all do have real talents, right? You know, that are kind of us, you know, talent, hard work, versus luck.
I think the I I'll jump on the luck thing first because I think that's the one like people are probably always wondering like how much like that guy just got lucky. Um or how much luck did that guy had. I think the luck element is probably the the the the the people that you surround yourself with. Or or you might get born into it. Like like for example, I had a family who uh saw what I did and they just let me do it, right? Of course, if it didn't work out, they would have probably pulled some strings at the time, but I was I was enjoying it, and they could see that, and that's probably that's luck, right? Because that's something that's out of my control.
Interesting in some ways you if I said randomness instead of luck, it's almost yes, because it's out of your control.
If you then go back to the hard work, if I didn't put in the work as a 12-year-old boy at the time and my parents would have seen that I wasn't putting in any work, they wouldn't have let me do that. So, how much luck really is it? So, I think you can work you can work towards luck with hard work. You can you can generate luck in a way by putting time and effort into it.
I actually I think I think in in very few disciplines is being in the right place at at the right time not an important thing, right? And one of the things that people mistake is they they look at people who've done better than them and says, 'Oh, I'm just as good as them. They were lucky.' But of course, for for wherever you are, there 10 people below you that weren't there. And you want to make sure you put yourself in a position to see as many open doors as possible. And then you have to be able to walk through it, but but you got to be grinding.
Um but sometimes you grind and that door doesn't appear.
So, you got to grind harder.
Even though it sometimes it feels like you can't.
Uh I mean, luck is definitely it exists uh for for more for some people than than others.
I actually think with short-form, like when you look at those, it's shifted in the equation. That in fact, because of the nature of virality and something just clicking and all that, the ratio of those three things, um which is why they just put more out there, put more out there, put more out there, put more out there and hopefully one of them
Short-form's a tricky one. I have some with a lot of views and I have some with with that don't have any traction at all and it just doesn't make any sense.
But I'm not really too worried about it either, to be honest.
let's let's talk about um uh all your collaborators and all your collaborators. Cuz I I I was doing of course research and I couldn't keep track of Jelly Crain or Slogo. So, you've got a whole crew that's gone in and out. And First for those who don't know about that, talk about that a little and then I have a question about
So back when I started like I think when I was was 16 17 years old I met a guy named Kwebbelkop who was quite decently popular at the time already and I also was popular at the time and we we both connected and we both found out that hey what we're doing is pretty unique and we're both really good at it. Obviously both being young at young at the time. So we both kind of convinced each other to quit school and focus on this YouTube thing. So we rented a place in Amsterdam. I moved out and we just we just sent it. And the funny part is even though I live with this guy for a year I barely saw him. Yeah, I barely saw him. The only place I saw him was online. We were recording every single day 12 hours a day working together but we were in the same space. We'd have like a dinner together or
You never saw him you mean? Never saw him physically. You were in your room, he was in his room and y'all were hanging out. That's hilarious.
Yeah, like it was it was a grind. And at the time we also knew some other creators online so that that was Kwebbelkop. And we knew some other creators online that some of them we worked with consistently and some of them not and eventually we kind of formed a group together with so it was Kwebbelkop and Slogo. You mentioned his name.
The reason I didn't mention Kwebbelkop is because I read the name and I was like I don't know how to pronounce his name.
Yeah, it means chatter hat chatter hat in Dutch yeah chatter hat. So yeah, so then we we just kind of naturally formed a group. We never really like branded it properly which we could have maybe we should have but we at the time we were very young and it's like I said this this whole industry was and still is so fragile right? So you don't want to like overdo things or put yourself into a position where you're not going to get other things. So we never really we never really had a group name. I'd say like the core fan base knows we had something going on, but we never like
