Dear Daniel, I'm very happy we can meet here today at your place on the 16th floor with a beautiful view, even if it's a bit foggy and rainy, but in Munich. Welcome. Yes, thank you Daniel for taking the long journey and for being flexible today. Some days are more chaotic than others. I checked earlier, you were at our for the 8 forward Festival celebrating our tenth anniversary next year, and you were on stage at the very first event. I remember very well. We talked about productivity back then, among others with Microsoft, and at that time it was, let's say, not yet foreseeable in your vision where we would be today, but in reality, that was all still very, very far away. What you have built here today. If you look back, what would you give to that Daniel from back then, in retrospect?
Well, there's not an awful lot, because I wouldn't do dramatically different things. What always guided me and the three of us as Flix founders was an absolute will, this big vision, the idea that you can really move something in the truest sense of the word, and something light, playful, let's say go. And that's what still guides me today. I look at many things, I listen to many things, but I also rely to a large extent on my gut feeling, what feels good and what doesn't. And of course you have to make decisions based on evidence, and we did that too, for example when we entered new countries. But there are many everyday small decisions where you let yourself be guided by your gut, and that served me well. And the one or two times when we were faced with completely new decisions where I thought, well, the investor knows better or the seasoned manager knows better or whoever, and the two or three times where I really decided against my gut, those were all crap, really without exception all crap. And the only thing I would say is, hey, you haven't done everything yet, but trust yourself the most. Listen to everyone, don't ignore any opinion, but trust yourself the most.
I still have to smile a little when I see your brand somewhere abroad, when I'm driving through the USA and suddenly a bus with the logo comes around the corner. How does that feel for you? So is there still a tingle in your stomach? Because you mentioned the USA and I lived in the USA for two years, so...
Well, good question, that makes me think. So one element of my life that I believe has a grounding effect is my homeland. I moved back to the village where Andre and I, funny enough, two of the three Flix founders grew up. And yes, dear audience, technically it's a city. My circle of friends, my environment there, has known me for 30 years or longer, and they simply don't care at all whether I'm successful or not. So that's a privilege I enjoy very much, and as I said, in my opinion it contributes to the grounding. That's one thing. The other is one of my patent remedies even before Flix: you should not take yourself too seriously. We are one out of a billion, and yes, there are more billions, but that illustrates nicely that most things we can achieve in our lives, the big things, are team efforts. Even in sports, you have a coaching staff and physios and so on. Therefore, I think you should not take yourself too seriously. And those are two of the components. There may be many others, but those are two that prominently popped into my head.
Now you, together with your co-founders, have also become investors yourself for years, supporting young companies, young entrepreneurs with their startups. What are the things you give them when they ask for advice, especially at the very beginning? And what are the things you pay particular attention to?
There is a certain correlation, and it revolves around the team and the organization. At the beginning, when things are really being hammered out, so to speak, sparks fly and chips fall. It's sometimes that people, in all the speed, forget to look behind a decision. And that's especially true when you want to inspire people: you have to make sure they fit not only today but also tomorrow or the day after. But it's both, not either/or, and that's not easy. And if you make a mistake, which will happen in any case, it's important to react quickly and, if in doubt, ask someone to leave the company. Because nothing is worse than dragging it out. At some point you reach a point beyond which it doesn't change. If you once have a gut feeling for whatever reason, it's not repairable. We had something like a probationary traffic light system at the beginning: green, yellow, red. And the truth is, if you look at how many we've managed to get from yellow to green, it's vanishingly small. So if you want to be strict, you can say there's green and red. Period. And when you look particularly at the founder team, it also happens often that they are not honest with each other, that an iceberg builds up over time. Because you must not forget, a company is a large part of life — I speak from my own experience, it's like my first child — but there are also other parts. And if you ignore each other's parts, it's difficult. Andre and I have always synchronized regularly: what are the other plans outside of Flix, so that we don't drift apart without noticing. Almost an iceberg syndrome. And that's so important because many really successful, potentially successful companies with a great idea and a big market have broken at some point because the founder team fell apart. And sometimes for trivial reasons where you think, oh my God, they should have had dinner together one more time and discussed it over a good wine instead of assuming it will be okay. Because assumptions and 'it will be okay' is not a good advice in my opinion.
Now you three are a good example that you don't have to have been in the industry for your whole life in order to found something in that industry and build something that ultimately significantly changes the market. Was that perhaps exactly your advantage, that you weren't so deeply into the topic before, that you then naturally learned it, but you first came from outside and jumped into this industry?
Multi-layered answer. So A, I think it depends on the industry. It's like choosing a career: there are jobs you can just do and learn, and there are vocations. I would certainly not have become a good doctor; that's a vocation. So you have to look at which industries are more agnostic, where the normal tools of common sense, and especially business acumen, are very helpful. And then, as you said, it can be an advantage to look in from the outside, so to speak, a second opinion. Because often, when you come from the industry and have been in it for a long time, it's a bit of a bias — sometimes a good bias, a survival bias — but ultimately you are one of the frogs in the pond, and an outside perspective is really good. However, what is important, and we had to learn that very quickly, is that when you come from outside, you have to have extreme openness, listen to the industry, be very receptive, and adapt quickly. Otherwise you come across as arrogant and cannot be successful. Especially now, dealing with medium-sized bus companies and bus drivers, a nice BCG slide is helpful, but if you don't quickly engage with the fact that a challenge in the bus business is how the chemical toilets are emptied, then you can't win with the greatest slides. And we learned that quickly, and that's essential when you come from outside.
Then there weren't that many players that were interesting for you at the beginning, so you really had to be convincing. What were the biggest challenges you faced, especially at the beginning, in convincing these medium-sized players in the market?
In the transport sector, especially in long-distance bus services, it works through local proximity, so-called proximity. That makes sense because if your buses leave from here and can return, then it's all calculable and cost-effective. But a long-distance product works through a connected network, globally or at least nationally. And that doesn't work from one location; you have to somehow tie it together. That means it's logically different. The bus companies as they existed before didn't really work that way. They kept coming back to that mindset. So we had to explain this mindset change and that you can still do it cost-effectively with a partnership. That's exactly why globalization was successful and is still a good idea. That was the microcosm. And we had to explain that to people because otherwise they don't understand it because it's not natural. That's one thing. The second thing is that we were also industry-foreign and had to adapt very quickly. We were really on the road, driving across the whole country, convincing companies. And sometimes we said, 'Great numbers, but how exactly can I then, how can I empty my toilet here?' And we said, 'Yes, we've already thought about that, it's not ready yet, but we'll bring it next time.' And we really addressed every single topic, even those that were initially very foreign to us or perhaps even meaningless, because it's not up to us to judge that. We wanted to inspire these people for Flix. And that was, I think, the main thing. And then it also comes down to persistence; you have to stick with it, be reliable, and keep your word. Nevertheless, we contacted thousands of companies. That was a Yellow Pages database. And if you look at that, not even two hands full converted at the beginning. So I don't need to explain that to you, but if you start an e-commerce business with such a conversion rate, I would probably recommend closing it quickly. But that's how it was. That was a lot of groundwork.
At some point you went abroad, and at some point trains were added to the buses. When did you actually realize that what you are doing makes sense and actually works, that it's not just an idea that the three of you came up with in a coffee shop, but that it really works?
Actually, there were two times. Honestly, this effect: we have come to stay, and if we do it right as a team, hopefully this company will outlive us when we eventually leave this earth after many hundreds of years. The first time was about five years after the start. I thought, okay, now it's clear, it makes sense, and we cracked it. Why did it come a second time? Because after about a year and a half we ran into COVID, of course an exogenous factor, no one's fault. Then I thought in between, maybe I overestimated myself or celebrated too early. But we got through that again too. When I remember, not tragic at all, but what a huge shit such a pandemic is, and all the human lives, zoomed in on Flix: I'm still impressed in hindsight how responsive we were and how this team performed. It was really excellent. And that led to us coming out of it. And the funny thing is, in a transport context, survival is almost a competitive advantage. Because apart from the ordinary labor market tools, we couldn't count on support. So we went to the gym, so to speak, really trained ourselves to come out strengthened as best we could. That worked. And then I would say around 2022, I thought again, yes, the thought from 2018 was correct: we have come to stay.
In such situations, does it help you to, let's say, think in scenarios? I always find it helpful to imagine the absolute worst-case scenario and think about what the worst that could happen really is, and then maybe think about two or three other scenarios, just to get familiar with what the worst could be, because the subjective feeling of how bad it will be is usually much more dramatic and destructive. Actually, to visualize what it would really mean.
I think from a certain size, maybe even from the beginning, it's part of the good repertoire. We also make business cases in scenarios. The good thing is that Andre and I are not very different in personality, and in the goal, in the vision, in the nucleus, we are unshakable. So I wouldn't even say 'the same page', but it's much closer, where we stand together. In the approach, in the way, we are different, so that you almost have scenarios embodied in the three of us. That's quite good. Personally, it may be that I subconsciously carry scenarios within me, this unconscious decision. But when I run, I run, and normally I am a boundless optimist, and then I run accordingly. It adapts sometimes, but as I said, back to the initial statement: why you need scenarios is, from a certain size, when you plan how much funding you need, what your liquidity is, you have to plan in scenarios. Because yes. Nevertheless, when I run, I run, and the tendency is always that it will go well. And I think that's also important because I strongly believe in positive emotions. So if you cognitively influence yourself positively, then it will also go well, in the sense of producing a positive outcome. And the rest, we have professionals for that, and B, as I said, we are thankfully so different and complementary that you automatically have scenarios anchored in us.
Your whole story started with the legal framework changing here in Germany, and you jumped on this opportunity. And the first years you had one goal: to be fast, faster than the potential competition that existed in between, and to take over this market. You have definitely achieved that for Germany, I would say, and you are doing well in other countries. How do you then develop such a company further? What comes next when you say, okay, let's take Germany as an example, we have taken over the market, everything works well, what is the next step?
