Jesper Kärrbrink & Pontus Lindwall: A Chief Executive Opinion (PART II) - NEXT.io Podcast

Back to what Pontus is saying. The bigger picture, that's your bloody responsibility. You have to understand the bigger picture and you have to then put that in a context that works for you, for your company, in this situation. But on a more personal level, I usually say to peers and people that I talk to, get a fucking life. Because if you don't, if you just are at work and in work, you will eventually the only you will know is your employees. You need to broaden your perspectives. You need to read books. You need to speak to people, train a football team or sing in a choir or whatever. Meet other people. People that only work are degenerating as experts and leaders because they don't see, they can't get the bigger picture.

This podcast is sponsored by Pragmatic Solutions, the player account management platform chosen by today's smart betting and gaming operators. Don't let technical constraints delay you from achieving your business goals. Expand your business, boost your margins, and dominate the market in any leading regulated jurisdiction with our powerful, flexible, and secure iGaming platform. Enjoy its extensive marketing tools, compliance protection, realtime data, and a wide portfolio of over a thousand industry providers. It's time to upgrade your technology. Let Pragmatic Solutions show you the modern approach. Visit pragmatic.solutions and join the smart thinkers.

This podcast is brought to you by Pragmatic Play, a leading game developer providing player favorites to the most successful brands across the industry. With an award-winning multi-product portfolio of slots, live casino, bingo, virtual sports, and more, Pragmatic Play is powering up new possibilities of play through one single API. Visit pragmaticplay.com and discover your favorite every time.

All right, guys. We're firing off here today with an episode of Legends today. So for those of you who have been in the industry for a long time and particularly those of you from Scandinavia will perhaps recognize the two panelists today. Just to set the tone a little bit if we go back to the 2000s. There was a very interesting dynamic in Sweden at that time where the monopoly in Svensk Spel was starting to become challenged by these up-and-coming online gambling companies and one of them was Betsson who was led of course by Pontus Lindwall. Pontus was the kind of up-and-coming CEO at that time for Betsson. He was trying to make his mark in the Swedish market and take market share. And then on the other hand we had the CEO for Svenska Spel, the monopoly in Sweden, and these two figures were like the nemeses of each other at that time. They were fighting against each other with tooth and nail to try to take each other down. 20 years later they are now friends and thankfully friends of mine as well. And so I would like to welcome to the stage our panelists today. Jesper Sharing, CEO of Emens Group, and Pontus Lindwall, CEO of Betsson AB. Welcome to the stage.

Hi. We take the sofa here.

We can make it nice and cozy. I think we sit next to each other.

Yeah. Back in the days, we would have taken one sofa each.

Now we can.

And since we already have kind of warm-up with our hands with a lot of applauding, I want to start with some more audience participation here this morning to get people fired up. And I have some fun facts about these two gentlemen here. And what I want you guys to do is I'm going to read a fun fact and then if you think it is Jesper, then I want you to give an applause. If you think the fun fact belongs to Pontus, I want you to give an applause as well. We're going to do this one by one. So, I have a first easy one. Okay. Who of the two gentlemen is a professional DJ or a semi-professional DJ rather? So, do you think it is Jesper? Don't give an applause. Oh, well. Okay. Do you think it is Pontus? Ah, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You got that right. You got that right. Is it true, Pontus, that you were almost a part of Swedish House Mafia?

All right. All right. Well, it would have made sense. It would have made sense. Okay. Second question. Who of the two guys were once fired from their job while wearing a tight spandex cycle outfit? Do you think it was Jesper? Oh, what about Pontus? Okay, who was it, guys?

Who was it to? It was me. And yeah, it's quite fun because I wear spandex quite often as I am a biker and I got fired.

Oh, yeah.

Exactly. It could have been you.

It could have been,

but it was me. And yeah, this was when I was at the Nero, I had a call from a chairman. He lived in Mallorca. So, we often had meetings in weekends when he was in Sweden. He called me and I had to run into the office. Then I was about to change. Then I realized, no, I'm going to take a bike tour after I had a training day. So, fuck, it's just him. So, I just changed into my bicycling clothing, tight spandex with this blowy you're sitting on, tight t-shirt and my bicycling shoes. So I came into the conference room like this. Click click click click click click click and when I open the door I realized there's something odd in here because he was sweating like a pig and yeah he was there to fire me. So I got fired in my spandex.

Yeah. That's another level of walk of shame when you have to go out.

It is brilliant. Okay. Next one. Who of the two guys have seven children? All right. Do you think it is? We start here with Pontus. Pontus. Seven kids. All right. What about Jesper? It's even between the two actually. And who is it? It's Jesper. Yes, you're doing your part to keep the world population going. We like it. Pontus, sorry. Okay. We do a final one. Last one. Who one time got the full attention of the roulette pit boss in Vegas after an unlikely winning streak and had to dash out of the casino before anything more happened on that. Okay. Do you think it was Jesper? What about Pontus? Yeah. And it was

That's an interesting fact. I always bet on 17 myself.

This is we didn't know.

No, we didn't. This is like an unlikely romance thing that's waiting to happen here. They're coming together.

We should. You never know. But then there's no more kids.

No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We learn. No more kids.

All right, guys. Let's go back all the way to the late '90s and early 2000s here. Just to set the tone a bit. I spoke just before here about the fact that you guys were true nemeses in the 2000s when Betsson was up and coming and Jesper was trying to protect his monopoly back in the 2000s. Jesper, talk about this time and how did you see Betsson at that time when you were running the monopoly at Svenska Spel and then all of a sudden here comes Pontus Lindwall as a thorn in your side and trying to disturb your business.

Yeah. If I should look back, he was the reason or they were the reason why I got the job because they wanted to have someone that perhaps could compete with them and realize what needed to be done at Svenska Spel. But at that time and since I'm a very competitive person, Pontus was a pain in the ass honestly. For me he was a competitor. I didn't like him because he was kind of taking my customers and taking our customers in an unfair way. We were the monopoly. We had the right. We were regulated. We were owned by the state and we've been running this show for the last 100 years. And then these internet startup guys coming in there having products that we couldn't match and they were a bit cooler than we were and that hurts a lot of course. So we were not communicating back in those days. We were enemies, pure enemies.

Yeah. And for your perspective, I mean

We arranged them and I banned them.

Is it true?

Yeah.

Yeah. You did. We had this spear at Vsp where we had the head office on the island outside of Sweden and SP was an institution where gaming companies

I was invited I was invited first

yes first and then I stopped it

where where the proper gaming companies came together and ATG

and the politicians

and exactly and the lotteryies uh and then these guys tried to to come in there and squeeze the way in and and no, I banned them.

I mean I mean that Pontus this was

it was maybe a bit less formal times at that time. You weren't listed on the stock market at that time or

You were already listed but you were still I mean you were still did some like gorilla tactics at that time like what did you do to upset Jesper at that time? We did many things uh because they they were strong, they were a big monopoly, they had a lot of people but they were not that fast and swift. It was a constant fight and what what Betsson and the the online companies could do at that time since we couldn't we couldn't even we didn't have a casino online casino we had sports book all at this time everything was about the sport book basically and and from our perspective and then you open up a a betting shop in the middle of Stockholm that was like unheard of you you can't do that that's not okay because that's that's basically the the the the essence of the monopoly to having having the license giving the license to these betting shops. And then Pontis comes to us. I wake up one morning and I read in the newspaper that there's a new betting shop in Stockholm. It's like what the fuck? They put all the lawyers on this and they probably called the police and they came and and and asked Pontis what he was doing. So no, it I mean everything they did was annoying. Every every morning I woke up, I realized today I will lose market shares. Whatever I do, I will lose market shares to these guys because I can't can't they have we had regist we had restriction on how much we could pay back on sports book. We had like 82% RTP on the sports book. They were running 96

players were they just left us in in hordes of course.

This was before my time I have to say.

So you were you were doing this on purpose. Admit admit that Pontus this was like more than just growing the company and earning a salary. You just wanted to annoy people essentially.

That was the main point I think

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And I mean to that end, Pontus, uh can you talk perhaps a little bit about the origin story of Betsson? How did it all begin? Actually, we were operating, which was legal in Sweden, we were operating blackjack and roulette tables in restaurants and also slot machines on board ships between Sweden and Finland. So, we had a legal gaming operation and I worked there for a while and I realized that we can never go anywhere with this company because we are getting so pushed by the monopoly and the regulators. We had just a very thin narrow part of the gaming industry where we could act. So that's when I started netand at the time that uh we both built the games and we operated we did everything in house and we did that in order to kind of circumvent the regulations and be able to offer our our simple view was that if they are allowed to operate casinos and sports book then we should be allowed to do that too because we do that on behalf of the customer you know and we give better prices, better odds and and everything. So, so that's that's how it came about.

Yeah. And then that legal stuff in the background that it doesn't matter. It's all about the customers.

Yes. Yes. And so during this time did you guys ever communicate you know as the at the time you you were CEO of Svenska Spel and and CEO of Betsson like did you ever get in touch with each other? I can start by saying that even though we worked pretty close because I was based in SA from time to time and you invar it's less than 1 kilometer. We didn't meet because we were not invited but then later on it happened that I was in the playground on the weekends with my first son. He was born in the year of 2000. And next to me at the playground was Matias which was one of Svenska Spel's top bosses. And we were finding ourselves on this bench, you know, being like enemies in the playground, but still having two kids that played and we were discussing. But it went on for that for several years. And I I don't think we ever met when you were CEO because

I think we were treated like someone who wasn't, you know, wanted

and that's true and we we we moved we were in the same industry but in two different circles. I was to the WLA seminars and and and things like that and and Pontus was running this startup. It was two different worlds and in between that we had Matias by the way a brilliant guy uh being one of the two vice presidents in in in Svenska Spel and I remember when he came to me and explained that he had a kind of a neighborish friend that was Pontus that was a bit awkward for him to tell me and he say yeah but you know we live in the same house and the kids on the same age I totally understand that no problem but it was on that level that he had to kind of he had to explain that to me that he met Pontus. So yeah, it's it's strange these days when you sit here. So met physically and talked like in in intelligent people. We did first when I started at Mr. Green, I would say.

Oh, that's 2015 or something like this.

16. Yes,

something like this.

Yes.

Uh and uh Okay. So I have you on stage Pontus today and I mean I can't let you off this stage without talking about Betsson's legendary or shall we say infamous uh trip to IBA in 2012. I don't know if there's anyone in the audience who who went with us on that trip in 2012. Do we have any like experts on it here? There's no one I don't think I don't know if anyone has heard about that trip in general. There's a couple of them. Yeah, this this story lives on for 12 years. Okay, so let me set the tone here and tee you up a bit, Pontus, and ask you about this. So uh I was working at Betsson at the time. So I was I was there as well, right? And Betsson had this uh yearly uh trip that they did for the employees for a couple of times. We went to Vegas one time, but uh IA was the last company trip that Betsson did uh as as a company. And uh what happened was that uh a couple of uh a couple of months or like a year earlier betsson and bet safe has mer had merged together and it was a bit of a chaotic merger shall we say and people were maybe not the happiest in the company at that time and uh to kind of come together to bring the companies together bets decided that we're going to take people on a trip to IA thousand people book a full resort there's going to be some nice evenings out and uh there's going to be conference to, you know, set the tone for one betsson and let's move forward together. The only thing was that people just took the piss out of this trip basically. And um how the trip started off was uh bets had booked two private jets that was going to uh private flights that was going to go to take people to. And on that flight was the new CEO uh of of Betsson or Luke Banks at that time. and he stepped on the plane only to find that his seat was uh taken by someone else. And so Pont so so he goes, "Oh, excuse me. You're sitting uh you're sitting on my seat." Only for this person to to to look up and say, "You go find your own fucking seat to the CEO to the CEO." That's how the trip started. Okay? And it went on and on. And um when the conference was going to take place, this was after two days of heavy heavy heavy drinking. And uh half of the people half of the employees didn't turn up to the conference. Uh and after that trip uh the people who didn't turn up at the conference got an official warning. I remember it was no happy days that the company done and I I sat next to Ulrich at that time on the plane back to Malta and I was a young VIP manager at the time and I was thinking this is my chance you know to have a conversation with the big CEO and so I asked him look you know how how is it going in Malta so far? and he just looked down at his newspaper good and then he looked back like he was not happy about this trip. So I want to ask uh the kind of inside story uh uh here at Pontus uh when this all happened uh and this trip went down like what was it like in the background during this time like what what happened really?

Yeah.

No, no it wasn't to be fair.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I must I must say I teed that up. We did have a good time over there. So, I shouldn't beat you down too far.

But it was the edgy thing to do.

that that we did. Yeah, that's true.

Uh let's talk fashion. Uh so, Jesper, you were voted the best dressed person in Sweden 2008 as a best dressed business person in Sweden 2008. The statue of limitation has has passed since

Yeah, I like it. And and yes, best dressed business person 2008. I mean, you hit the top at that time. You you keep it going. You were on the cover of the first next magazine ever as a Dolce Gabbana like model. You rocked it. What's the best fashion advice to the kids here today?

Dress like Pontus.

No, yeah. No, but I'm serious. You You dress extremely good. Well, um but but otherwise, I would say like Pontus I would add one more thing. Always you should dress based on who you are

and to that you should add the occasion.

A lot of people are doing the mistake that they only dress from who they are and forget about the occasion. But so there are a few a handful of people that can don't have to bother about the last one. They always come as they are. But but if you have those two in minds, dress who you are and and and and then dress to the occasion, then you will always be fine.

Because Yes. I mean, the reason I asked this question is because in this industry, uh it's always been a lot about, you know, personal style. Let's say if you look at an iGaming office, you generally don't see uh everyone's dressed in a in a in a suit and tie, let's say, like we're not the banking industry as such, right? And that's one of the beautiful thing of this industry. That's one that's one I I love this industry for a lot of reasons and and mainly for the people in the industry and with that also comes the fact that there are so many individuals and people dare to be individuals in this industry and and they dress accordingly. That's being in the office and seeing all these people being themselves and and can be the self. It's a very inclusive industry in that sense. And we also I mean we coming from if I remember correctly know we had like 18 different nationalities at at Mr. Green perhaps even more you have the same at Betsson even more speaking like 30 different languages. So that there there are two things with this industry that stands out. One is that we we we are individual but also a community and people are okay with that as you say we don't need to look like bankers all of us and or as in a certain way. So so that's one thing and the second thing that I love with this industry that that we have two official languages English and broken English

and I represent it later if you didn't understand

which most people do.

Exactly. But but that's also a thing. I can sit here and talk my broken English without thinking about it because I know that no one really cares because everyone understands what I'm saying or they they they they try to understand what I'm saying and that's the core of this industry. That's one of the things that I like me love best with this industry.

Yeah, we are an unconventional industry, right? uh we we don't care if you have a a great education or not as long as you are can contribute even if you are a bit different let's say than the than the norm

and that's what makes this industry so good.

Yeah absolutely. Uh let's talk about uh leadership advice quickly I want to talk I mean both of you guys are of course incredibly respected uh leadersh you led great companies to great success over the years Pontus you taking Betsson to the uh to the master of the industry that it is today. Um you mentioned earlier that you also had a story of being fired. Uh and just to reiterate the popularity of of you Pontus. I mean the um maybe you want to talk about the story also but you know you were fired from Betsson not that long ago only to be reinstated very very quickly again. Do you want to run through that story again?

I think

I think your mother had a part to

Yeah. Saved by her mother. His mother I was saved by my mother.

That's that's

if I were back at Caspel, I would have painted that on the wall.

really. How long How long will you be able to keep that passion, do you think?

and uh yeah, I hope I will continue to feel the same passion. And I do that every day. I wake up, I go to the office, you know, I'm one of the first people to come in there and I I go like, "Yes, now let's go. Here we go."

Every morning.

Wow, there's so many things. Uh and and being a leader uh I mean you could want to become a leader, then then that's a separate uh line of devices, but being a leader, I think it's back to what Pontus is saying, the the bigger picture. That's your bloody responsibility. You have to understand the bigger picture and you have to then put that in a context that is that is that works for you for your company in this situation. But on a more personal level uh I usually say to to peers and and people that I talk to get a fucking life. Uh because if you don't if you just are at work and in work you will eventually the only one you will know is your is your employees. You need to broaden your perspectives. You need to read books. You need to speak to P people. Train a football team or sing in a choir or whatever. Meet other people. People that only works are degenerating as as experts and leaders because they don't see they can't get the bigger picture, right?

right?

So, so, so, so get the life outside work

but it can be hard, right? I mean, you have like

it is but you have to and this is the also the thing that yeah, I have to work all these 12 hours a day. know you have to delegate. Your your your level of of capacity is is is what it is. It's a box. But your responsibility is this big. And if you want to have control of everything, run a hamburger, kiosk, whatever, because then you can control it 100%. But if you want to control the company, you can't. You have to you have to trust people. So you have to delegate, delegate, delegate and and building a system for delegating and letting people making mistakes but also helping them correcting those mistakes. And when you're fed up or they don't work or they doesn't function. Yeah. You have to find that

it it sounds simple but but on a larger scale it is quite simple.

Yeah. It's much more difficult to be middle manager. You have the the people beneath you and you have the asshole above you and you have to balance these two. That's much more difficult. We can set agenda. We have a board meeting every quarter. That's handable. We know more than they do. But having this top manager running you, it's like uh

Yeah.

Pontus, are you an asshole sometimes? Your employees.

No, I don't think so.

Brilliant. I mean that's the best advice not to be an asshole and that's to to give people trust to delegate and give people trust.

Yeah. Brilliant. uh let's take a bit of a helicopter seat over the industry uh for a moment and uh and observe the companies that are here. I want to ask a bit of a a controversial question perhaps. Uh what uh today is the most overrated company in the industry today.

So if you think about the industry who are doing well, who are not doing so well, but what is the most overrated company today? I want specifics here guys. So So do you want to start? Yes.

M this is an ugly question to ask. Uh and

that's why we you guys said I can ask anything.

I know. I know. And

that was in the contract.

I I I know. And I regret it by now. No. Honestly, and this hurts me to say. It hurt me badly to say, but it's actually Svenska Spel.

Svenska Spel.

Yes.

Your owner.

Yes. They they lost it. Hope. Sorry if there are any Swedes from Svenska Spel today. They lost that great position. They gave it away. They gave it away to ATG which is even worse than giving it away to to the ah they had all all the pieces of the puzzle and just gave it away. And today it's still big but it's it's losing market shares faster than ever. It's no it's today I would say it's perhaps the most overrated company.

What went wrong?

Oh, that I know it's difficult to say, but it's it's difficult to run a large company and and this is a hint to Pontus

Exactly. So, so it's difficult to run a large company. It's impossible to run a large state-owned company in a private market basically, especially in a stigmatized industry like the gaming industry. So, it's it's back to the owners, I would say to to 90. Yeah. To 100% is back to the owners. There's been a lot there's so many brilliant and good people in that company, but they are limited by the owners.

Yeah.

Pontus.

we're in the main state front.

Yeah, exactly. Um, not to drag the discussion too much into discussions around regulation, but I still find it interesting since I have you guys here to go full circle a bit. I mean, uh, Betsson obviously comes from the 2000s operating as a .com license for many, many years. Now, we are moving into a more regulated, uh, environment. Um, yes, you of course come from the state-owned monopoly in the 2000s and uh now work for a highly regulated uh business in Emens Group. What is your kind of observation of where things are heading let's say in in European regulation today? We see UKGC for example being very very aggressive right now towards the uh stakeholders and they're both on the B2B and B2C side uh to the point where the black market is actually taking a turn for the worse at the moment. Um but are things heading the right way in general?

no I agree 100% I mean Emens Group we we are close to 100% regulated revenue today uh like 96% and that's the way we want to go and that's the way we want to stay but it comes with a price and that price is that we are and I'm back to the to the Svenska Spel again we are kind of fighting an unfair rules we have to stay keep ourselves to certain rules that this is why I advocated the re-regulation back at I wanted us to be in the regulated market so we could compete on the same terms and we are not competing on the same terms and that means that regulations is not is not working. The canalization is is going down in in most markets and and that that has that comes back to the politicians view on gaming. It comes back to the regulators view on gaming. They are they they don't like gaming and and that's in all other regulations. You have the financial regulation. These people know the financial market. The the the regulators in the gaming regulators they don't know gaming and that's the problem we have today. But it's a young reg regulation and I agree with Pontus. It will shift and it will come back and it will be better. So yes, stay focused and be a bit patient and we will sort this.

Brilliant. Last question for you guys today. What do you admire most in each other? The other side.

Thank you. Yeah, I know. And and Pontus is he's he's he's a is one of the guys actually founding this industry. I mean, we should we should remember that founding NetEnt and then bringing Betsson to it is today. That's that's two huge achievements and I uh I really really respect Pontus for that and then being leading this company for so long time as well. That's not many leaders doing that. You jump from one ship to another because you you feel you do done it but redo it and redo it and reinvent yourself is one of the most difficult things you can do and and Pontus has has shown that that that's possible to do.

Ladies and gentlemen, we're standing on the shoulders of giants. Thank you so much for listening in. Jesper, Pontus. Thank you so much, guys.