Dr Patrice Motsepe Limits CAF Tenure | Stays Neutral on SAFA Elections | Rejects Illegal Migration

Brilliant, brilliant question, Mark. Very good question. And that's why the media is so critically important because whether it's in business or football or I don't know even in church or in politics and in the economy it's important that you ask these questions. We have a duty to answer them as best we can because we also have a duty to report to the hundreds of millions of football spectators and fans on the continent. I must say I was very emotional when I heard what the Somali referee Omar said to me and I was also emotional when he was excited because we said to him you are now going to be the referee of the biggest club competition in Europe. And I really want to thank Sephron and thank UEFA for the discussions and for this opportunity. I'm clear in my mind because the issue of the circumstances under which a country either allows somebody to come in or not to come in. We've had lots of those challenges. We had the same challenges in other countries on the continent in football and there it's a sovereign issue. They've got their laws and their requirements. My job and my duties is to make sure that we are there to support the Somali referee Omar and he's our best. We gave him an award as our best referee on the continent. We are proud of him and we will keep on supporting him and all the other referees.

Talking about Gianni, you know what is more important is what we discuss in private and it's important for me to always look at the heart of a person. We are all human, we all have weaknesses and frailties and we all make mistakes and I think I make more mistakes than anybody else but what I like is the deep love for football, the deep commitment to football in the world by Gianni, the support for Africa. And we did that, some of the issues that we have discussed including some of the issues that you have raised and I'm satisfied that he's always shown the deepest commitment. You know, there are rules in FIFA and we all have to respect those rules. I was laughing when he said that sometimes the FIFA judicial bodies make decisions that he doesn't like. I thought he got that from me because the CAF judicial bodies sometimes take decisions that I don't like at all. But I've got to keep quiet and support them because their independence is critically important. And they have to know that they must take decisions that have got nothing to do with whether the president of football supports or doesn't support. And the people in FIFA who took the decisions you refer to, I've been exposed to, you see the CVs, there are some people there with enormous integrity.

And I think the issue for us now is to make sure that because public perception is everything for all of us. You know, I can stand as a president of CAF. Let me give you another, the AFCON every four years. Now, I know that I'm giving them the same AFCON as it is now every two years, identical, but I'm doing something else and giving them something different every four years. But it doesn't matter what I say, and this is the point you made Mark, very important. It's what ordinary football people and not just football people and non-football people on the continent, what their perception is of what we do. And it's important that CAF and I know that FIFA as well, we're all committed to make sure that in the minds and in the perspectives of ordinary people in Africa and worldwide, we are seen as an organization that upholds governance and ethics at the highest levels. I'm going to be more brief because that's a very important question you ask and I had to try and give as much explanation as possible. So the next questions the answer is going to be yes no yes no.

Good to see you. Yes, yes, yes.

It's a very good question and I think we, if we receive any request we've got to look at it and discuss within EXCO and EXCO is the most authoritative, the most senior body in CAF and we have a duty to look at every proposal and take decisions based on what's in the best interest of football. So, I think I've answered you now.

What more do you want me to say?

Yeah. I hope you are happy with what I said.

Expand. I've expanded as much as I can. Let me be more direct. Decisions of this nature have to be looked at by EXCO and EXCO is to take the decision and we have a duty to look at every proposal that we receive. So the secretary general is not here, that proposal will be submitted to EXCO to look at and to take decisions based on what's in the best interest of football. It's our duty to do that. Thank you very much. Next question. Bali.

Always also say which media organization are you from?

Good to see you.

I'm told this slash goes to increase in salaries and wages. I like that.

Very good question, Bali. Very good question. Um, we the process is now before CAS and whatever decision CAS takes we will respect and implement. I mean look at what happened at the World Cup. Decisions that referees take, there's always a contestation. What we have to do is to learn from what happened and we have already passed laws to make sure that what happened in Morocco never happens again and also keep engaging with the referees and match commissioners to make sure that the rules and the laws are very clear. Because at the end of the day, what ordinary football people think on the continent about the results is critically important. The integrity of the decisions that are taken and there must always be a clear perception that you win because you are the best. You don't win because the referee takes decisions that are questionable or the questionable VAR decisions that are taken. So I'm very happy.

We've had lots of discussions and I'm told that what I said was, I'm sick and tired of answering the same question. It's not totally correct. What I actually meant was I think people are sick and tired and so am I of giving you the same answer all the time. And the same answer says, you know, I go to the World Cup, people from Senegal said president please leave the trophy where it is. People from Morocco says president you know the decision was taken in our favor. And the point is I always have to give the same answer which is I have to wait for the decision of CAS. I can't give you any other decision or any other response. There's nothing I can do legally, ethically. I have to comply with the rules and regulations, the statutes of CAF and FIFA and those are, I have to wait for the conclusion and then implement it. So I said I'm sick and tired of telling you I have to wait, I have to wait for CAS, I have to wait for CAS and I thought that you must always also be sick and tired of hearing me saying the same thing to you. But thank you very much, excellent question. Okay, we go to you and then afterwards we come this side and then I'll go back that side. I have to go to him and then afterwards Timber and Mash there and then Gar you'll be next.

Brilliant question. Brilliant question. I think part of how you do better or how you move in the right direction of success is to recognize the weaknesses and things you can deal with differently and better. Let me tell you, we gave the AFCON to Morocco and when there were matters concerning the hosting of the AFCON, I received many other proposals from other countries who said bring the WFCON to us. Bring the WFCON to us and we have to behave in a manner that is ethical, that is principled. It would have been incorrect to take it away from Morocco because when we had opened the tender and said come, anybody wants to host because I'm clear in my mind I want the competitions, I want every zone and as many countries as possible to host these competitions. So when there were these challenges, we had to engage to make sure that we maintain the ethics, we maintain the respect, the mutual respect and I would even say the mutual trust. And could we have done better? Absolutely. But we did the right by not having it. It was supposed to be in February.

Yeah. The same thing, what is your name again? Yanda. Yanda was of course Yanda. The same thing with the CHAN in Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda. It was supposed to take place last year in February. They were not ready. I could have taken it away from them, but that would have been the wrong thing to do. And we had to be there to support and work together. They spent so much more money between February and August last year to have this big competition in those three countries and we've benefited immensely. We've learned as well, but it gave us a prelude to what we should do and the challenges we might be confronted with next year in June, July. So, I'm very happy and we are all in CAF, very happy and excited that we've done the right thing. Besides, if we had it in February, we wouldn't have been able to significantly increase the prize money as we have now and get loss of focus. Women's football is crucial and you know, it should not just be, we shouldn't pay lip service to women's football. We should do more than pay lip service and a 900% increase in the money we are allocating to women's football is a substantial expression of confidence and commitment. But thank you for the question.

If I might go to the WhatsApp questions from international journalist. One is from Mauritania, Ahmed Lam from Mauritania. He writes, 'Mr. President, African referees officiated only in 11 out of the 104 matches at the World Cup, raising concerns about the treatment of African referees. How do you respond to this and how can we ensure that more African referees are officiating at top matches?'

Very good question. Obviously, I want as many African referees as possible to be at the World Cup and to officiate as many matches as possible and we will continue the discussions and the engagement with FIFA and with Pier Luigi who I think does very good work and is very committed and passionate. I've had that question asked and raised by many people and I can assure you that those matters have been discussed and I'm confident that there will be significantly more African referees and part of that is to continue to work together between CAF and FIFA to keep training, keep supporting, keep uplifting the standards and qualities of African referees. African referees are as good as the best in the world. My apologies. They are as good as the best in the world and we've got lots of confidence in them and they should be there at the highest level in the world. Of course, if an African nation is in the final, we will not have an African referee there. But I want both. Let's have the African referee. We want to see African referees as many of them at the highest level at FIFA competitions. Next.

Just another question from Nigeria from Timothy from Nigeria. He writes, 'Mr. good afternoon, Mr. President. Congratulations. Did the performance of the African nations at the World Cup reinforce your belief that CAF's current club and national team competitions are adequately preparing players for the world's biggest stage?'

Absolutely. You see, I have to be jealous about the quality and the global competitiveness of our club football competitions and our national team competitions. And that's why we've allocated, I mean, you know, when I became president, CAF was in debt to the amount of $150 million. We owed $150 million. We now have $150 million in our bank account. But be careful, that money is not supposed to sit in our bank accounts. It's supposed to consistently be allocated to the member associations, to football for boys and girls, to training of referees and coaches. So you will see from our financial statements we keep as little money as possible on our balance sheet because the money is not supposed to be in our bank account. It's supposed to be used and spent on the ground. So the performances of the African national teams at the FIFA World Cup reflects the quality of African football. Look, Egypt was winning 2-0 against Argentina. Cabo drew with the champions. And he's from Nigeria. Nigeria has got some of the best players not just in Africa but in the world and I'm confident Nigeria will continue to make us proud as they did in the past. Same Cameroon and same Bafana Bafana and every one of the 54 African national teams.

All right. One of your 54 regions has got elections coming up which is South African Football Association. Just your word on that, the presidential elections we saw you know campaigns are now underway. What's your take on that? And is CAF involved in probably, you know, without taking any sides just going out and saying maybe message of good luck or anything like that. How far does CAF go in terms of that? I like the message of good luck. You know, I remember when I was a student at Wits and Dal Pu always reminds me of this and you know, and we were marching against the government, against apartheid, and we were fighting and we said you know they can hit us and we will keep fighting. And then the police were standing outside Wits and they had such big sticks you know and we were debating should we continue with the march and one guy from KwaZulu-Natal said guys let us just pray and go home you know because if we keep marching they're going to hit us so hard and then of course there were those like both who said no no no we have to go on. So going to the issue of South Africa again, we've got to keep giving positive messages and it's very clear we have to unite to keep South African football together united both within SAFA and as well as the relationship between SAFA and the PSL very very very important. And you said something very important, CAF will be there to support as well as FIFA to make sure that the processes are in compliance with the CAF and FIFA statutes and regulations. But what the president of CAF cannot do is to say I like Lux but I don't like John. You don't do that. I mean, I had the same problem in Côte d'Ivoire when Drogba wanted to stand as president of the football league. I like Drogba, he made us proud as much as I like all the football players, we're all proud of them, but I had to tell a meeting where there were many many more people than what is in this room that my job is to support and make sure it's all done in a manner that's legal and ethical and to make sure that the candidate that wins is the one that enjoys the support of football in the country. But we should not listen, I know Danny is somebody I've known. I like him. I know Sandile. Sandile was my secretary general when I was president of black business and I was given the job to say you have to unite black and white businesses. Big big challenge. And so Danny will phone me and say whatever he wants. Sandile will phone me and say whatever he likes. But I think there's a clear understanding that as a president of CAF I have to maintain a position of impartiality and neutrality.

But having said that, I have a big stake like all of us. This country has got enormous potential. Enormous potential. Enormous potential. You know this country can produce the national team that will be in the not just the semi-finals but the finals of the FIFA World Cup. Can do that. It doesn't happen overnight. But it starts with everybody working together. Dr. because he's an old old, he keeps telling me that he is implementing my father's agenda in football. So I said but if you are implementing my father's agenda in football what agenda am I implementing with you? You know, so of course I know I was born in Orlando so if you were born in Orlando you had no choice, they said you will support Pirates whether you like it or not. And then of course we got exposed to Kaiser Chiefs as young boys from the family love Kaiser Chiefs, love Orlando Pirates, love Mamelodi Sundowns and all the others. So I'm confident that the process will be in a manner that's appropriate. That's our job to also supervise that and a decision will be taken that's in the interest of football and we will work together and support whichever candidate has been chosen by the leadership of football in the country. Okay.

Uh CNN asked me, no don't clap hands for that. I mean CNN asked me along the same line of questions that you did and my answer is very simple. South Africa does not need me to go into politics. There are many very capable, very good leaders in this country. I don't want to mention names. I've had the enormous privilege. The only problem I have is I'm not part of any group. And that's why even some of the friends who are my friends say things which are not flattering because somebody said to them that somebody might persuade me to change my view. But they're still my brothers, man. And I understand why they say so or why they make these statements because they've got a lot at stake in the context of the group that they belong to and they need that group to succeed. I understand that. But no, no, no, no person is indispensable.

I mean I've had the privilege of leading black business. I don't know where, united black and white business. And you actually judge a leader by not how good things were when he was there or she was there but what happened when they've gone. And this is the issue that I'm applying my mind to now within CAF. I deeply love this country and I deeply love the people of this country and I have the privilege of doing the things where I think I can make a contribution. I mean this thing about FIFA, let me rather say I've said on many, FIFA doesn't listen, I love FIFA, huge enormous contribution that FIFA does but I have no desire or ambition to be president of FIFA. It doesn't excite me. My iPhone lights up at 3:00 in the morning and tell him about something I should have told him last week which I thought of at 3:00 in the morning but because I didn't phone him at 3:00 I forgot. But also this country has got good people, many good people. We shouldn't only focus on our failures and deficiencies and there are many of them but there's so much that we should take confidence from and be proud of. And the religious leaders I have the privilege of interacting with because values and what you believe in and what you stand for is very very important and the traditional leaders, the kings, and also all political parties. Every single political party. I don't want to mention names. The people I've had the honor to interact with and it's easy for me. I mean I can stand by the sideline and say that it's like football for example when they came to me and said we want you to consider being president of CAF. One of the leaders said it doesn't even come to meetings of the football board of governors because I don't need to go there because you've got Irvin Khoza and Dr. Khoza, Dr. Motaung, people I love, I've got a long history with both of them. And various others good work and the work that has been done in SAFA under Danny and various others. Let's look at the good. You will always find things to criticize because it's society. But I want to conclude by saying that my biggest contribution is when I have the capacity to keep engaging as I'm privileged to with all leaders of all political parties because no political party can take this country forward on its own. The voters have shown us that. So let's think about the poor. Let's focus on the poor and the unemployed and we will all do much better. Let's go back to football now.

Football question.

I don't want to interrupt you, but it's people like you that makes me proud. I mean this continent has got exceptional young talented people like yourself, exciting ideas, new ways of doing things and we must see how we can work together and support you guys.

Good question. Very good question.

Brilliant.

Brilliant. No, we — I didn't put it in the press statement — there's discussion to allow you when you come in one country you can go to all three. And let me correct this: the fact that we respect the sovereignty of every nation in terms of their decision of who comes in and who doesn't come in doesn't mean that we don't engage with them. We have to, and we engage with them with the objective of saying make it as easy as possible. I mean, when you went to Qatar, I'm told that if you showed them you had a ticket, that was your passport. So, and I must say I'm very proud of those heads of state of those three countries because Madame Sunulu and President R and President Museveni, the deep commitment and excitement to make sure that the Afcon is enormously successful. I mean, the president of football in Uganda said to me, 'We have never had so many people visit Uganda as what happened last year during the football competition called the Chan.' So immediately the country sees, wow, the hotels are full, the airplanes are full, people buy food, the restaurants are full. I don't want the hospitals to be full. But there's money, jobs are being created. There's money going around, developing the economy. That's excellent. So I can assure you, Mlazi, we've had discussions. There actually is discussion, as I said, of ensuring that you apply for a visa or... I don't want to conclude because we will make announcements, but the objective is to make sure that it allows our football fans to move around as quickly and as freely as possible. I was in LA. I went to watch one of the football matches, and as I left, one of the people I haven't seen since I last saw him when I was working in America many, many years ago, and he said to me, 'We are going to come. I'm bringing my whole family. We're going to come and watch the football in Kenya, and what we are going to do is we're going to go on safari.' So we're going to link our watching of football with taking the family on safari. Beautiful. Because he's not the only one. I've heard many other people say that the whole Pamoja is going to be enormously successful. But thanks for that question.

Yeah. Now, there are certain things you must be careful about being persuaded. There are certain things you should never be persuaded about. And nobody is going to persuade me to serve more than two terms in KF. It's not going to happen. And we took a decision to support, and I personally support Infantino. He's not just a good friend, he's a loyal friend. He's loyal to Africa. And again, I come from a different background where when people have been loyal to you, you never stab them in the back. You never do that. And as I said, to help in Africa, that excites me. FIFA doesn't need me. So nobody is going to be able to persuade me to change my views on those things. Because, and also because there are other people who are very good and who will do a good job. We've got to be careful that we don't get too focused on certain individuals. Everybody makes a contribution, but this country has got — raise your hand and become president of whatever you want to, you know? And you used to write beautiful articles about me, you know. But I'm just saying that CAF will be fine. African football will be fine, even when I'm not there. And that's part of what I'm focusing on, and everything else where I've had the honor of making a humble contribution. Part of the job is to make sure that there are better people than me when I was there to take over, and they of course bring new leadership and new focus, but overall that's good for football. But thanks for those questions.

You know Mark Leon?

He does wonderful work.

Very good question. You know, until an African country wins the World Cup, there will always be... that was the Arab version of what we are saying. So we have received so much respect for how the African countries played, and we have to look at the psyche of our country as well. This is so important. The psyche of our country, but also the psyche of the continent. There's so much for us to be proud about, to be inspired by, and look at the good. You will always find good, and sadly you'll also always find weaknesses and challenges. People look at how we failed in the past and said we are destined to fail forever. Remember, we come from a country where they said that there was going to be civil war, and of course we come from a difficult past. But I think the feedback I've received from top football leaders in the world is that the Africans made us proud, and they could have done even better. I mean, we were leading 2-0 against Argentina. If we just told the ref — we can't tell the referee — stop the game, let's go home, but just, you know, and we will learn. So we've gained so much more respect and recognition, and I can tell you, I think at the next World Cup I will not be in football. I will not be in KF anymore. When the next World Cup, I'll go to Morocco as an ordinary football spectator and a football fan. But I think Africa will do even better. Even better.

Amen.

I will clap to that.

Brilliant, brilliant question.

I mean, just listening to you, something went through my mind. I spoke about the Catholic mission school I went to when I was 5 years old and spent 10 years there. They used to wake us up every morning at 6:00 and we had to go to church. Whether you like it or not, you had to go to church. Every night before we went to bed, you had to go to church. For me, those were — that's why I said they were the best 10 years of my life. But I like this. It's so important that, and let me say that value is what you believe in. Just simple things like basic things like honesty, integrity, treat the next person the way you would like to be treated, don't lie, don't steal. Those things are embedded in God, Allah. And it's very important that we all grew up in families where some Sundays we went to church, and we should put God and Jesus Christ at the center of what we do. Now let's go to something that crossed my mind while you were talking. We should have a conference where it's talking about how can people make money out of football, and bring all of the football stakeholders. This reminds me of the days when I was president of Navco and would have meetings with thousands of businessmen, and Dr. Chabala and Map. There is so much — football is a multi-billion dollar industry. I think the numbers they talk about are in excess of 300 billion American dollars. We have to have a meeting where the focus is how does African small business, young business, all businesses get involved in football and make a living out of it. One of the things I liked enormously about this Munipe Foundation National Day of Prayer is you've got thousands of hawkers who come the night before at the FNB stadium, prepare food. I mean, some come from KZN, the Eastern Cape. Unbelievable. They come just for that day of prayer because they make so much money selling food to our people who come on that day of prayer. So we should look at that. And I think when there's a football match, our hawkers sell as well outside. I'm not talking about the sweets because you spoke about the tickets in America. I mean, I spent so much money, Mark, buying tickets, a lot of very — but these were for the suites where we had partners and others who we want them to support football and sponsor football. But that's a brilliant idea you raised. Because in everything we do, Lux, and you must tell the secretary general — the secretary general is in Morocco because acting secretary general — I'm always reminded they say please don't say secretary general, he's still acting. He does such wonderful work, he makes me proud. But we should make our events create opportunities for young business people to grow their businesses, to partner, to make income. That's a brilliant idea. We should implement it.

I like what did you say? What's your name?

You know, Demo, there's so much talent, and sometimes one of the things we see — these are the things that excite me. We have to provide centers of that increase. In 2011 or something, they asked me to be the first chairman of the BRICS business council of the five countries: China, India, Brazil, South Africa, and Russia. And one of the things we did was just what you're saying: we have to create these centers to allow interaction with the objective of entrepreneurial financial transactions. That's it, but we have to make them happen. And we will come better and better the more we make them happen. So continue.

I've always liked Becky and various other leaders. The same applies to every other leader who was in the ANC and those who are not part of the ANC, and I've always had enormous respect. The reason why I mentioned Tabum Becki is because of what he said about xenophobia. And I think it's correct to say that what Julius said as well, Julius Malema, very good. Very, very good. Now, let me clarify two points on this issue of Afrophobia and xenophobia. Illegality in all its forms, we will not tolerate. We reject illegality, and that includes illegal migration. I mean, nobody, and of course criminality as well. We are totally against illegality in all its forms, as well as illegal migration, and that's very clear. We should put that aside. And then there's a separate issue. That separate issue is when people legally come to this country. You know, something weird is happening in other parts of Africa. You come from outside the continent, you're a tourist. We welcome you. You're a tourist. You're not coming here to take people's jobs because our job, of course, as a country, every country in Africa, your first obligation is to your people. Without a doubt. The number one obligation of the government of South Africa is to create jobs and create a future for its people, 100%. And any form of illegality, whether by our Southern Africans or people from outside the continent — not just outside the continent, outside the country — should not be tolerated at all under any circumstances. You've got to take effective legal action and ensure that there is a huge amount of respect for the law. Non-negotiable. But you know, for businessmen like myself, Africa has no future, and we'll talk about it in the context of KEF and football. We have no future as a country. I meet the top businessmen, the top politicians, the top heads of state in the world, have done so for the last 30, 35 years. We have no future if we don't partner with the continent. And it's politically unpopular to go and educate our people to say to them that we are all Africans, and Africans means whether you're white or black or green or whatever, we are Africans, and we are enriched by the different cultures, the different languages, the different ways, the multi-racial, multicultural appearances of our people. But you will never be able to create the jobs that we need in this country and create a bright future for all our people without taking out the negativity and educating our people to realize that we have to interact with the continent in a manner that's mutually beneficial. I mean, something weird happened about 20 years ago when I was hosting one of my children being baptized. We had invited many of our relatives and other guests to be there at the baptism. And as one of the families were leaving, some guys came in a car and said to them they wanted to rob them, and they said, 'We see that you are South African, and because you are South African, we're not going to rob you.' I mean, there should be no robbing at all, but they thought we were foreigners and because we were foreigners they wanted to rob us. So, that's why young people like yourself and others, the concern about our people not getting jobs is a legitimate concern, and we've got a duty to do that. And of course, there's also an equally legitimate concern when some of our businesses don't employ South Africans but employ people from outside the continent because they are prepared to accept low wages. It's wrong. But we have to do the right thing and educate our people and say to them that illegality will not be tolerated, and we will also, from CAF, we will issue those statements. We have to say we support the cooperation, the working together of Africans on the continent. We will not tolerate, we cannot support illegality. We cannot support illegal migration. You cannot because all over the world, and some of the leaders are correct when they raise issues to say that we should try and create jobs in those countries. Forget about people from outside South Africa. If you don't create jobs in Limpopo, you don't create jobs in KwaZulu-Natal, you don't create jobs in Eastern Cape, people will leave the rural areas and come to the cities because they need jobs. So we need to work together to try and create jobs in the countries in our neighboring countries and in other countries on the continent. Okay, let's go back. No, Kev will issue a statement to say that we support legality. We do not support illegality in all its forms, and we fully appreciate and support and recognize that the duties of every government starts with its own citizens to create jobs and to create a future for its citizens. But we should stop this intolerance and prejudice and violence against our own people just because they come from outside the continent or outside our countries. So that's why we don't want to go into politics because we've got to at times stand for what is ethically and morally correct. And they say, 'Yeah, but you're going to lose votes.' If you lose votes for what is ethically and morally and principled and in line with our religious convictions and upbringing, then lose the vote. That's what we should teach our children. President, we'll do that at KEF as well.

Okay. So, we can go now.

So, you will engage with — sorry, what's his name?

You will engage with him and you must draft the statement for Kev. Okay.

Good. Good question. Good question.

Now I have this difficult question. I have to go to Mali. I've been there and the military was in control. But I went there because of football. I have to go to Burkina Faso. And some of the African heads of state said don't go there because there's a military junta there. I have to go to Niger. And some of the heads of state say don't go there because there's a military leadership. But again, I think we've got to deal with reality. And of course, democracy and freedom of speech and regular elections, that's non-negotiable, and that's critical. But I will be visiting those countries to engage on the football part. And of course, the decision as to where the Afcon will go is a decision of the executive committee. I mean, there are so many presidents who say to me they think I have the power to decide, magic, that the Afcon is going to go to a certain country. I don't want that power. Because part of my duty is also to create a culture where KEF functions in a manner that reflects ethics and governance and transparency, but also global best practices. So we don't know at this stage where the Afcon is going in 2028, 2032, and 2036. And Burkina Faso, Niger, and Mali will have as good a chance as everybody else. They are not going to be disadvantaged or prejudiced by the fact that they have military juntas. But you raise a very important point: the questions of safety and security. Those are questions that we will have to address. But there's no decision that has been taken as to where it will go.