The Meebits Podcast - Episode 14 - Ian Rogers - CXO at Ledger

Thank you.

I'm kind of sweating over here. It's like I had to run. I had to run. I ran in this wool outfit like a busy guy.

I just want to say this is a real background. This is not like, if I was looking at it on the screen, I might be like, oo, nice Zoom background. But no, it's real. And as I was coming up here, I realized that we're at 53rd and Third, which if you're a punk rock fan, is an iconic corner. This is not what the Ramones song looks like to me. Like when the Ramones is singing about 53rd and Third trying to turn a trick, I don't think this is what I had pictured.

Yeah, you should, by the way, listen to the song and read the lyrics, and just look up on Wikipedia what that song is about, and then know that that is exactly where we are. We are at 53rd and Third. Oh, the city has evolved a lot since.

Since the Ramones.

Yeah.

Sure. And by the way, if anybody really wants to go deep, two years ago, I was on Rick's podcast. It was like three and a half hours long. And I'll make you a deal: if you listen to it, I owe you three hours. So, I grew up in Indiana. I studied computer science in the early 90s. I'm 53 years old. Come back to 53rd and Third. And so, I graduated with a degree in computer science in '94, which is only relevant because it was really this moment when the internet was a thing. Like when I started in 1990, it might as well have been rocket science, but by '94, people were using AOL like normal people.

And then, there's this internet thing, and it just kept going. I didn't know what it was at the beginning, but I was a music nerd and just tried to put my two loves together, which is technology and music, and managed to do it. I dropped out of grad school in 1995 to go on tour with the Beastie Boys, and that's what took me to LA. I moved to LA with the Beastie Boys in '95. And then did a number of things. We had a popular MP3 player in the late 90s called Winamp. That was made by Justin Frankel, but I ran Winamp.com and Shoutcast.com, and that sold to AOL in May of '99.

Worked with the Beastie Boys on the record label Grand Royal. And then started another company with one of my colleagues at Winamp, Nullsoft. And then we sold that to Yahoo in 2003. We built Yahoo's music subscription service which launched in May of 2005. It was the first all-you-can-eat $5 a month music subscription service. The tagline was 'more than a million songs,' which, you know, now that Apple Music and Spotify have more than a hundred million songs, that seems pretty quaint, but it was true at the time. We had Shakira on the side of a building in Times Square as our launch party for that. And interestingly, I got to show you the marketing for the Yahoo music service because it was all little pixel people.

Let's go. It's when you look at it, you'll be like whoa. It was May of 2005, and we had these little pixel people were the marketing for Yahoo's music subscription service called Yahoo Music Unlimited. And then had another company called Top Spin where the chairman was Peter Gotcher who invented ProTools and started Digidesign. And then came with Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre and Luke Wood and Trent Reznor to build Beats Music. So, I was the CEO of Beats Music, which was the music subscription service alongside Beats Electronics, and then we sold that to Apple, built Apple Music with Zane Lowe. Super proud of doing that. And Trent Reznor as well. And then got a call from LVMH to move to Paris and be the chief digital officer of this luxury conglomerate, LVMH. Which I loved. It was great. Again, there's a longer story there if you listen to the old Rick podcast from two years ago. It's like we go pretty in depth. And but then, you know, right when I moved to Paris, I met Pascal Gauthier who was the first investor in Ledger. I also met Tony Fadell, the inventor of the iPod and co-inventor of the iPhone and the founder of Nest. And, you know, in 2020, we just, Tony and I, Tony's family and my family were pandemic families, and we really wound ourselves up. We were like, okay, this is it with crypto. Like, we were already invested in crypto, but neither of us worked in crypto. But we just went, okay, the technology is here. This kind of smart contract stuff that people were talking about three years ago is really here today. And you've got this global pandemic with two trillion of stimulus in the US and a trillion in Europe, and this is exactly what crypto was made for, right? So, we were kind of all in. And part of that for me was talking to my friend Pascal who'd been talking to me about coming to Ledger for a few years and saying, 'Okay, I'm ready. I'm like five years in now at LVMH. I'm really a believer. So, what can I do?' You know, and for me, I really believed in Ledger because it's like a low beta, right? Where you know, you could go into a chain or a particular area, a particular protocol, or a particular app, but those kind of go up and then they go down. You know, where a low beta is just kind of going to go up for a long time. And the analogy for me with Ledger was Cisco. You know, like there were so many killer apps on the internet, and they were always being superseded by the next killer app, but Cisco just kind of had this very simple thesis: there will be more internet tomorrow, therefore. And I felt like there was the same thing for Ledger. You know, there will be more digital assets tomorrow, therefore Ledger. The reason I say that, the reason I make that leap is if you have digital assets, that means self-custody, right? It doesn't, and I think people actually in digital collectibles understand that far more than some people who are investing in Bitcoin, right? Like, it means self-custody. Even if you're buying an ETF, that Bitcoin has value because of self-custody, right? If it was not permissionless money, it would not have the same value. So, even if you're not taking advantage of the permissionless aspect of Bitcoin, if you are buying the ETF and you're not taking advantage of it, it still has value because of its permissionless nature, right? Well, if permissionless money, if self-custody, then security, period. And that might be with the user, it might be on the custodian side, but security is not optional, right? And that was my realization with Ledger and where I was like, 'Okay, this is something that I can put my opportunity cost in.' But when I joined Ledger, I had zero NFTs. I didn't, and it was Gaspar, who you probably know, who is still with us at Ledger and a great collector. I was texting with him today about a drop, and you know, who showed me a Winamp NFT, and he said, 'Ian, I think you need to own this one.' And I was like, 'I think you're right.' And then the slope after that is pretty slippery. So that's the full background.

It really was incredible. Like, I mean, I still, and those, you know, we, it wasn't a company. It was like a family. Those are, you know, friends.

I always joke that I think that, you know, something like MetaMask will be that someday, and I mean no disrespect because we love Winamp. I mean what I mean is, when I say Winamp, there's only two responses: either blank stare like, okay, you worked at a company that made that, fine, or like, Winamp, that was my shit, you know, I lived in that, you know, I like that. I think it'll be the same thing. Anyone who bought a VeeFriend in 2021 will have that same reaction when someone says MetaMask in, wow, where are we? We're in 25, call it 35, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important for your audience. So, I hope everybody that is interested in MiBits and punks and, you know, digital collectibles generally, really thinks about security. You know, so many people, and we're the lightning rod for all the horror stories, right? So please, please, please, like, get in front of it. I don't want to hear about, you know, what you lost and then how you found Ledger and you realized you needed a Ledger after. But again, it's a self-custody thing, like, you know, you should have, you know, it's art. It's not a financial instrument. You should have it in your possession. But if you do that, well, you know, how are you going to protect it? The whole game is protecting that private key. You know, the private key just proves you're the owner. You don't put your MiBit in your wallet. Your MiBit lives on chain. It's safe out there on the Ethereum blockchain. And what you have is the proof that you are the owner of that MiBit. But what that means is that if anyone else gets their hand on that private key, they can prove that they are the owner of that MiBit. So the whole game is protecting that private key. So what Ledger does that no one else does, our standard of security is what security in this space means is your private key is generated by and stored in a secure element chip. So it's a chip that was designed to protect secrets. Any cryptographic transactions, you know, like a send or, you know, more complex, you know, interactions, smart contracts, etc., those happen inside the secure element, and then you the user can verify those things on your screen, right? This is why, you know, wallets that don't have secure screens or even just software wallets, if you are targeted, you will get got, you know. And these things in our community, the digital collectible community, we're super susceptible to these things because we aren't loners necessarily, like we're out there talking to people. You know, people are talking to people on Telegram, Discord, X, and you think you're talking to somebody, there's just this amazing story yesterday of like, join my podcast. Okay, cool. I'll be right there. Oh, it's not loading. Oh, just download, you got to update your software. Here's the .exe, you know, at that point, it's over, you know. And so it really, I mean, I can't tell you. I've talked to so many people that are very technically savvy, and they still get got because these are social scams. They're actually preying on the fact that you're a nice person. Yeah. Right. That's like responding, you know, to someone politely. And if you have a software-only wallet, you ultimately will get got if you're targeted. And there's no protection for it. So that's what Ledger is, and I think really, you know, everyone in the digital collecting community needs to protect themselves with a Ledger. To your point about, you know, especially if you're an individual, we do have an enterprise product. There has always been this gap between our retail product, so for the individual, and then the enterprise product, which is truly an enterprise product. It's expensive. It's hard to set up. It's great if you're a bank or a government or a foundation, you know, these kinds of, but for simply a whale or a big collector, it's not the right product. So, you know, we're working to fill that gap. Things like Safe have filled that gap in the past, but if you look at the Bybit hack, there are some dangers there too. So, you know, there are some, we're working on this, and like I look forward to coming back and talking to, you know, people about things that we've built, you know, specifically for the collector audience.

The way that we look at this is there's three things that you should be looking at when you're like looking at a solution like Ledger. The first one is security. Like I said, we have those three things: the storage inside the chip, the cryptographic transactions happening inside the chip, and the secure screen. And if you simply use those three things, there's not another device to buy. There's no one else who meets that bar. You can, like, look, we have lots of, you know, content out there about exactly why that is and how people use basically the chip that's in the remote control of your television set, then they store it in secure memory, or they don't have a secure screen, or they don't have a screen at all, or blah blah blah, right? So, security. Second, the second thing to evaluate is ease of use, and that goes from support for a number of chains, support for, you know, everything that you want to do, the wallets that you use, but also just like, can I use it? You know, we keep trying to make Ledger Live easier to use, and we've, and like adding services to it: buy, swap, stake, lend. We have a credit card. You can spend, you know, I paid for my coffee this morning by tapping my phone and paying with crypto. You know, it's got a full suite of services in there, but also, like you said, these e-ink screens. You know, lots of people have Ledger Nanos. They're great devices. It's not something I'm going to get my sister to use, you know, like you click okay with your two thumbs.

I think in a way a Nano is a little bit of a Winamp thing. Like, I think I could probably take our stock of Nanos Plus and just put them in storage for 10 years and bring them out 10 years from now and still sell them all. RWA tokenization. Yeah, exactly. The nostalgia, you know, so people, they are beloved. One thing I love about the Nano, you look anywhere, like any piece of art where they put crypto into the art, it's got a Ledger. It's a Nano. Yep. Right. So, I love that. And you know, when you put it on a touchscreen, it starts to look a little more like a phone or a Kindle or something, you lose a little bit of that iconic look. I have a collection of Nanos. They are easy to use. The new touchscreens are so easy to use. Ledger Flex, Ledger Stax, and we'll keep innovating on that. But then the third thing is recovery, right? I mean, my friend lost everything in the Palisades fire, including his Nano and including his recovery phrase. You know, it's like those are the stories I hate to hear. And that's why we made Ledger Recover. So, you know, Ledger Recover is basically you can use your identification to back up your seed phrase. And it's open source, there's white papers, if you want to know why it's secure. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters with Ledger Recover is how many people were hurt and how many people were saved, you know, and that is a great balance. And we also just launched this thing called Ledger Recovery Key, which is an electronic PIN-protected backup. So now every touchscreen device comes with this little square piece of plastic that has a secure element and NFC. And when you touch it to the back of your Stax or Flex, it can either back up or recover your seed phrase. And it's PIN-protected. So, you know, you could leave it lying around, and someone breaks into your apartment, they're not going to have access to your seed phrase. If they get it and put the PIN code in wrong three times, they'll still kill it. But it's, you know, to have a seed phrase backup where you can't write down any of the 24 words wrong, you know, that's like, it's like sometimes the letters that I wrote four years ago do not look the same anymore.

You know, I used to use this analogy because, you know, I collected a lot on Tezos, and I love that world, and I don't think those, you know, there are few things there that are valuable, Kim Asendorf and Andreas Kian, etc., that I love, and like they're as important to me from a collection perspective as anything I have on ETH. A lot of it, though, is just an artist that I loved, and I had a conversation with OnChain, and I would use the analogy of friends where I was like, it'd be sort of like if you smashed the window of my car in 1992 and took my CD wallet. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I can still pay my rent. It's not a devastating financial loss, but it's still heartbreaking. Like, that's my culture. That's my, those are, I spent a lot of time and energy building that collection, and I curated it with love, you know. So, I agree it's not just about that financial loss. It is non-fungible, and it isn't just about monetary value either. It isn't fungible. So, yeah, I mean, like security hygiene, it's like password hygiene, you know, like if you're not, if you're going to do your password hygiene tomorrow, like come on, man. Like, what are you, like, fix that shit. We are moving to a world where our lives are digital and our value is on chain. You know, having security hygiene in this day and age, and nothing is perfect, you know, and so be super careful and protect yourself from yourself. Know that you might fall for something, so minimize, you know what I mean, make it so that if someone does compromise your computer, they're not going to get everything, or if they even compromise your mint wallet, they're not going to get everything, you know. Like, that you just have to really think about it. I think.

And a lot of people do that. So there's the tools, guys, girls, everybody. Go and get yourself some of the new Ledgers, some of the recovery stuff that they're developing, because it just makes your life more enjoyable, easier, allows you to be more adventurous sometimes on chain, right? Being able to respond quickly to new developments can be very positive EV. But if you're freaking out because you don't know what kind of setup you have on your wallets and you might put stuff at risk because you don't have the right setup, it might cost you.

Okay. So at Ledger, we were, I'm talking to the audience now because you know the story. At Ledger, I really, I was looking for a head of business development for what we do, and I talked to Raoul Pal, and I'd already thought of Sergio, and Raoul was like, Sergio, and I was like, you're right, okay, I don't think I can get him, but let me talk to him. So I go, I see you at Consensus, and I'm like, this is what I need, and you're like, all right, well, let me think of somebody, you know, you were busy, you're running your startup. Fair enough, you know, but to me, also, by the way, this is the way you hire always, just for everybody, the way to hire is, you decide who in the world is the best at the job, and then you go ask them, and they're going to turn you down, but they're going to give you some names. Like you say, okay, you turned me down, thankful, but you owe me five names. This strategy works, by the way. But you were like, 'All right, let me give you some.' And you did. You gave me a couple of people. I followed up with them. And then I was here, I think maybe a couple months later. We went for a run in Central Park, and we were talking about your startup, and I could tell I was grinding you down a little bit. A little bit. You're a good salesperson yourself. And you know, I was like, ah, silly, come on, man. You got to either do this or you got to help me find the person, basically. And then in November, you called me, and you were like, 'We should talk.' And I was like, 'All right, we got this. I got this.' I was with Raoul, and Luka came in. He's like, 'You need to call Ian back.' Yeah. And I was like, ah, I'm going to get him. I'm going to get him. And so we made a deal. We were all the way down. We were all the way down. And then I can't remember if it was the day before, the day after Christmas.

We call, we talk, and I'm talking business. I'm like, 'Okay, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. Here's where we're going to start.' And you're like, 'I got to tell you something.' You're like, 'I just got a call from Gaara, and MiBits is on the table.' And man, I think this, I'm going to say it says something about my character because I was just heartbroken because I didn't try to talk you out of it. I was just like, 'Okay, if that's, you got to do that.' Like, knowing who you are and like to me like you were representing the community already plus you're a great entrepreneur. You're smart as shit. And like there's nobody better to do this thing. And so I was like, 'All right, this really sucks for this. Fuck me. Like I'm back to square zero now.' But if you don't do this, you'll always regret it. And if there's anything I can do to help you do it, I want to help. And so that, and by the way, I just hired, and he started three weeks ago, this head of business development. But we are now nine months later.

I know, I mean, so you were so supportive. You said you literally said that you're going to regret this for the rest of your life if you don't do this. I want to support you. Go and do it. It's a dream come true. It's really, truly, like we don't, these type of opportunities don't come around very often. So that's my intro. What I want to talk about is, like, what's going on? Like, I listen to the podcast, and it's great guests, really awesome people that I like a lot. But I want MiBits. I want MiBits news. What's going on with MiBits?

Totally agree, no introduction. What they've achieved is incredible, and we're just, you know, once in a lifetime opportunity to steward an IP that's so legendary.

Yeah. So they invented, it's just innovation. To me, I'll continue with the Beastie Boys parallel because in a way anyone could have done it, right? Like the tools were all there, but what they did with the tools was unique and inspired and art, as you said.

Yeah. And that's where I think the analogy does actually hold. I think what they did with starting with glyphs, but also with punks, and then they were almost more ambitious in a way with MiBits, was like, what are you kind of not supposed to do with this technology? Like, what's the thing that's, you know, and yeah. So anyway, I hadn't thought of it until just now, but there's something about it that holds.

So, that's pillar one. Pillar two, to your point about technology, being tech-forward is something that Matt and John have showcased throughout their career even before Web3 when they were working with Interplay and all that. They've really pushed the envelope and really pushed the frontier. And so MECO wants to build in that direction. A few of the things we've done so far is just integrated them into Player Zero, which is a gaming platform where you can use your MiBit as a character in a game, which part of like the 2021 grail activation that people wanted from their NFTs. But we're also working, I'll give you a little bit of some previews. I think people make fun of the metaverse, and this idea that, you know, I think the expectation of the metaverse as some sort of like Second Life or a high-quality Sims is misplaced. Maybe we'll get there one day, you know, maybe we'll get to like a Ready Player One kind of situation, but we're already living in the metaverse, right? And I think the iPhone is our portal into the metaverse, right? It's the internet. We do everything online. I mean, nobody in the audience would be alien to doing business, dating, communicating, you know, all kinds of stuff on the internet. And so, you know, the world, we see the world through their phones. You see it here in New York walking around. Everybody's got the phone up. Like, you're navigating with the phone in your face. You're like Uber drivers are driving

With the phone right up there, you're taking pictures, you're communicating with the world, you're producing content, it's all through the phone screen. So, we thought, okay, MiBits are tech forward. MiBits are your digital identity for the metaverse. The Second Life metaverse is not here yet. The Zoom calls where everybody's a 3D person instead of themselves is not here yet. But what is here already? That ability to see the world through your phone. So, we're going to be pushing very heavily into AR and being able to bring MiBits into that mixed reality world. Actually, if you're not listening for the headlines, you probably miss them, but Apple, Microsoft, Meta have been really, really investing in the AR layer. And so, that's where we want to take MiBits. It also allows us to showcase them as what they are, which is digital sculptures, right? So being able to see them in that digital world is I think right in the direction of what MiBits were meant for. So that's something that we're pushing when it comes to tech.

But we've also done integrations with AI platforms such as Think Agents to really in the future give MiBits the ability to be the body of your AI agent, again with that same idea that you set them loose and they'll go do commerce for you, they'll communicate, they'll do whatever needs to be done.

Yeah. And we'll see more of that with The Other Side as it continues to open up. You guys really invested there in like AI capabilities and so being able to again, it's like a hybrid MPC, right? Like it's an AI character but also starts learning and understanding your activities, how you interact with it and so on. Being able to educate the agent with lore and have players really interact with that in their own way. Kind of reminds you of playing Pokemon, right? Like Pokemon Red, Pokemon Yellow, and you'll talk to the character. Obviously in that sense they're programmed to say one specific thing.

With AI, you can really enrich that experience. So it's something we're definitely pushing forward as well and relying on some good partners for that. Because one of the things we learned, Web3, it's obviously you want to do everything but you can't do it alone. And finding the right partners has been key for us.

So art tech, art tech, and then fun utility. The word utility obviously has been abused, back to 2021, right? It's always code for free money or like number go up. For us, utility is just the ability to really take your MiBit and enjoy the experience of being a MiBit holder, right? You're wearing our merch shirt that we dropped with merch. And that is a physical item that was designed for the Metaverse by Matt and John.

So there's not a lot of people that can walk around the world and say, hey, this shirt was designed by the highest living grossing artists alive who are still here. Yeah. And you walk around and you go to the MoMA store, you go to different places, you go to Uniqlo and you see Basquiat prints and you see Van Gogh prints and that's pretty cool. But these are items that were actually designed fully by Larvalabs, right? And we have over 90 traits in the collection that we can bring to life or that we can draw inspiration from to bring to life. So merch, we have some really cool toys coming, also playing along with the tech innovation. I will leave that surprise for later, but those are really really cool. Again, an incredible partner that we've been working with for a few months to bring a toy to life that will not only bring MiBits into a lot of kids' lives, but also in a meaningful way allow kids to interact with that toy with AI and be able to use it to leverage the technology for learning, reinforcing education, and doing really fun things.

So fun utility, being able to enjoy the experience of not just being a MiBit, but what MiBits are. Community events. We have Apefest coming up. We have a helicopter ride for 30 MiBits. We're doing a booth at Complex Con. Want to make MiBits really proud.

Yeah. Oh, we're doing five or six helicopters.

We're doing a MiBit brunch very much in the style of Punks Brunch. I have the honor of having one of the first few people who organized what is now Punks Brunch and it's an institution. So we definitely want to replicate that for MiBits and we'll be hosting that at a punk and MiBit holder's residence in Vegas. We'll be at Marfa with some really cool activations. We have over 100 high quality 3D printed MiBits that the community ordered. So we said, okay, we want to display MiBits at Marfa. We could go out and print those ourselves. We hold over 800 in our treasury. But what if we bring the community in with us? What if they could order their 3D prints and then we'll showcase that both at Marfa and Vegas and then ship them over to you guys.

Fine. Well, good for it.

I know you're good for it. So I think that's also really cool that people will be able to see their MiBits have been exhibited and the exhibit that we're doing is going to be awesome. It's going to be I think the highlight of Marfa. So being able to use my own personal network to leverage that for the MiBits community and make it fun to be a MiBit, make it substantial to be a MiBit. We have also some plans to do that in Miami later on in the year and continue to develop activations that make people again proud to be a MiBit. Not because the number went up, because numbers will go up, numbers will go down, but really because people within the MiBits community, they join for a few reasons, right? It's one, it's a Larvalabs product character token, but also they vibe with what we're building. And we're building in that direction.

We're not building this for the hype of like, oh, do I want them to appreciate? Of course, I hold 800 in the treasury. My goal is to have 2,000 in our corporate treasury. They will continue to be our biggest asset. But really, it's that daily experience of like, hey, I'm really happy. I'm proud. I'm proud to be a punk. I love what punks have done.

And punks, it's the community that's on that, right? Obviously Yuga Larva and now Node have had an impact but really it has been individual punk holders and groups, the Punks Telegram, the Discord, the Branches, the folks that have pushed MiBits punks into museums. It's the world's biggest performance art by a group. So I want to replicate that with MiBits and so community first is our fourth pillar and it goes hand in hand with what I just said about utility. We've hired from the community, we all come from the community, and we understand what it is to be a MiBit and what got us excited about MiBits and what kept us in MiBits as things were going crazy in maybe other places. And that's the kind of feeling that we want to bring. We made some really cool fun pins and bags. We just really want people to say, hey, I woke up this morning and I'm grateful to be a MiBit in whatever shape, form, or version that is. If that's playing video games with your MiBit character, awesome. If it is interacting with your AI toy or your AI agent that's a MiBit, awesome. If that is just knowing that your MiBits are in a museum one day, awesome. All of that works for us and that's the direction that we're going.

Yeah, so to your point, one of the first conversations you and I have is there a Lego movie with MiBits? That's, that's, that's MiBits. Um, hopefully one day. Actually you bring up Lego and obviously people are always like oh Lego collab and yes I want to do a Lego collab. We do have a really cool bricks product coming out for the holidays, keep an eye out for that, that's going to be really awesome. But not Lego yet. But what I like about the Lego movie is that the Lego man is an actor. It's not really always the same character. If you look at the Lego toys, right? Obviously the bricks are the bricks, but the little characters within the sets is always that little yellow man and he puts on a construction vest and now he's a construction worker, puts on a police cap and now he's a policeman, puts on a Spider-Man hood or Batman hood and now he's Batman or Spider-Man.

And that is the way I see MiBits. At the beginning we're like okay maybe we should write some very specific lore as to these five characters and we do have a cast and people that have been paying attention to the content that we're making could see the same MiBit over and over. That's not because we're being lazy, but because we want people to start familiarizing themselves with the elephant that we have that has the beanie, gold chain. We have a beautiful girl that wears a hat and has the lux pants and so on. So that's just familiarizing people with the brand. Obviously we have our main pig. We've had attempts to name it within the team. The last attempt was Crispy Bacon. So he'll be Crispy Bacon. Obviously that did not make the public.

To answer your question though, I think the lore of MiBits is the cultural relevance and the aspects that went into creating it and the things that we're going to do with them like having them at Marfa, like having those AR activations that we want to do. And we'll let the community write their own stories with their MiBits. Why do I say that? One, because as I look for the next 20 years, writing the full story for a cast of 20,000 characters, I think will do a disservice over the long term. Again, we do have a cast that we'll do fun things with. But we don't want to impose, oh, these are definitely New Yorkers, even though all 20,000 of them were inspired by New York and are wearing New Yorker traits, because that leaves people out and MiBits are very inclusive. And so these are 20,000 characters that you might find around the streets of New York, but maybe some of them are visiting from Norway. Obviously, the visitors coming.

Fair enough. Fair enough. But my point being there's a lot of the story to be written just MiBits as a brand, as a collection first.

Right. We've never really seen a punk developed like it's even like the punk.