STREAMING: 2º Enagás H2 Technical Day | Enagás

Good morning to everyone. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you to Enagás and thank you to the observatory team and also all of you for having me the opportunity in order to give you—I have only 10 minutes and now I saw it's less than eight so it's a lot of information I want to share with you and I have no time enough. But of course during the coffee I hope we will have the situation in order to discuss more than in detail. This is a study. It has been done in Spain with the Spanish Hydrogen Association asking all the companies about how are the projects they are running and they want to run because you are seeing now on the board the technology readiness level. So it's how are the projects close to the market or even in the early stage in order to develop the technology and you can see we have more than 360 projects in Spain.

They are not all because there are a lot of different companies who decide not to share the information with the rest about their ideas, specifically when you are talking about early stage and lower tier in order not to give some, let's say, advantages to the rest of the competition. You know, in order to say I don't want the rest to know that I am working in order to improve, I don't know, whatever will be the technological parameter from different technology. But you can see we have a lot of different projects. One of the key messages I think is that if you see the map there is no any community without any proposal and this is quite good and this is also good because in an Enagás analysis from the introduction that Arturo has been made, it has been considered the whole value chain and all the different territories in Spain and this is quite important.

You can see here—sorry, it's a lot of information I was trying to skip the most of them, the presentation will be for you—but I want to say that nine projects are in operation right now and you can see during the next years until 2030 or 2031, you can see we are adding 365 evolving projects in order to integrate with the whole value chain. So at the end, I hope not all the 360, but enough information and enough projects it has been finishing in order to comply with the objective we have here in Spain in order to have on 2030 12 gigawatts of electrolyser already standalone in operation.

Financial investment decision, the key point. We have six already running now and you can see in this year we will have more than 60 projects who will arrive to this point and we are starting in order to think how will be the evolution of that and all of those we are running more than 35,000 million of euros and also funding with a rule of two-thirds and one-third that is already defined here with the per projects on application. And for me is the most important: which kind of technology. You can see here it's well balanced, it's 50/50 between alkaline and polymeric. There are some projects who are blending both and also as you can see at the bottom there is one project who are considering the high-temperature technology, the solid oxide electrolyser.

If we go to the other part, the applications, we have most of them the common application that you can see which is oil and refinery and also the fertilizer, but there are also a lot of different projects who are considering the new energy vectors, let's say, ammonia, methanol, and how in order to start in order to push and go into the next step of the projects. About the barriers, the last two slides I have is focusing on the barriers. You can see this is a very good match and this is good news. I mean, because the industry thinks that the barriers we have is the same that the technology people think that are the barriers we are having. So this is a very good alignment and this is a problem on the regulation. I mean, not a problem, but we need in order to work all together in order to improve the regulation to define and try to specify more how is the hydrogen integrated into the regulation we have.

Now we have to balance the offer and demand and this is quite key and also we have a problem in the access to electricity and we will see in the next slides that between 60 and 65% of the cost of the kilogram of the hydrogen is due to the electricity. So which is quite important in order to have that and also the last three is access to finance. Of course we need money in order to advance to the water and the land and also to the equipment. I mean, not only because we don't have the equipment but the equipment is not, let's say, generally speaking, so when you need three or four or five electrolysers they are not already on the market and you need to wait time in order to have the people who are working there in order to continue, proceed, and move fast.

So challenge, I was trying to divide in two slides. Some of them are general challenges and the other ones are more focused on the technology or the technical challenge. The first one is the cost. As I told you, 60-65% of the real cost of the hydrogen is due to the energy and all the rest are a combination of all the different things. And of course all the stakeholders are trying in order to work all together and collaborate. And for me this is a key message that has been already shared with you in order to continue working all together to be able to reduce this production cost, let's say, in order to increase the competitive positiveness of the sector. The infrastructure, nothing to say because Arturo has explained quite well, better than myself, that we need the infrastructure and we need to break the chicken-and-egg problem. I mean, and not to say that if we don't have infrastructure it's not possible for us in order to continue working on the hydrogen and this is something that of course we need to break this kind of challenge and try to move ahead.

We need to increase and improve the regulation as I told you before. This is quite important. I mean, it's not a question of having, let's say, a regulatory framework for everything because we have a lot of this regulatory for the gas, biogas, and we need to adjust and we need to integrate the hydrogen within this regulatory. And of course in some of the cases we need a new regulatory framework and we need in order to continue working on that in order to have until the end a new regulation who complies and integrates the hydrogen economy already there. We have to balance, as I told you before, the offer and demand. This is the key point and Arturo has mentioned the bales, the hydrogen bales. This is a very good tool in order to balance the whole value chain of the hydrogen and try also to work with the people who need this hydrogen and who need how to integrate this hydrogen into the process and not only the typical applications but also the new applications is necessary in order to continue working on there.

We need money. So we need to work with the banks. We need to work with the investors. We need to show them that this is a very good sector and of course even the cost now is a little bit higher. We are moving step by step in order to reduce this kind of impact, let's say, into the economic balance in order to continue working on there. And the last two, for me this is quite important. I mean, we need in order to integrate the society and Arturo, it was two months ago, has already made this presentation to the public social assemblies of the infrastructure planning from Enagás. And this is something, meetings like this, is very important in order to report and inform the people which is the hydrogen, which are the advantages of the hydrogen, and of course which are the challenges we have in order to reduce this manipulation or this maintenance in order to continue working on there.

And the workforce, I mean, and always when I have the opportunity in order to express this kind of things I have only one minute left. So it's not only university grade, we need also to think about the people who are here in Spain is a professional formation. This is the people, the technical guys who are working in this in the different workshops. This is quite important and we need in order to pay attention to that apart from the high-degree people that in the universities that is already integrated this kind of information and from the technical ones. I mean, all of you, I see a lot of good faces here, a lot of friends here that you know more than me which are the challenges but we need to increase the efficiency of the electrolysers, we need to work also with the new technologies, the anionic and solid oxide, the high temperature, how in order to evolve is in order to solve some of the challenges we have when we are thinking to use the alkaline and polymeric electrolysers.

We need also try to use and think how is possible to blend the different renewable sources and some of the new projects, at the beginning all of them are concentrated or 100% aero-derivative or 100% photovoltaic type and now you need to play in order to increase the time of working of the electrolyser and try to blend these kind of renewable sources and you need to integrate this into the process. How to restore the hydrogen, apart from the pressure and apart from the liquid hydrogen, we need to think and try to guess how will be the new materials in order to increase the amount of the hydrogen to be stored because we are talking about million of tons. We have to work with the new materials not only for the transportation and infrastructure in order to avoid this embrittlement problem with the hydrogen but also try to create and think how is it possible in order to have these new materials.

The transmission infrastructure as Arturo has been explaining to you, and also the integration of the system within the grid and how in order to also improve the durability and the performance of the different equipment we have. I mean, now we are more or less about 60% of the efficiency and we need in order to increase this kind of efficiency and this is something that the future, maybe we don't have time enough in order to see but in 20 years' time the electrolyser will be working with more temperature, will be working with more pressure, and this is something that will increase also the efficiency of the different system because we are talking about the thermodynamics. I mean, this is the theory. So the theory of the chemical reaction is like this. So you need in order to think how is possible to integrate this kind of system much better than the rest and this is the information I complied with the time. Sorry, it was a very quick overview about there but I will be here so we have time in order to discuss with you and try to share all the views. So thank you.

Good morning everyone. Thank you Emilio for your engaging speech. Although the green hydrogen technology is at the commercial stage, we have some issues to be improved: the electrolyser efficiency, the production cost, the importance of talent, as aspects that we are working really hard in order to improve and obviously this will help us to improve the hydrogen competitiveness. So let me introduce myself. My name is Pat Dunda. I am the head of innovation and technological development at Enagás and the Hydrogen Technology Observatory as well. I am delighted to be your host for today's event. We have a very busy agenda and a very interesting one. We will try all of us to be on schedule. So please moderators be like that. And before we start, let me extend a warm thank you to all the speakers and the participants and the guests that are joining us today and those who are following us on streaming.

So let's start. We will start with the first round table. Automation and digitalization together with the energy transition are set to transform the global industry. In the case of green hydrogen, the rollout of new green hydrogen infrastructure as well as its operation and maintenance can be enhanced and accelerated thanks to the digitalization of its processes. So let's start with the first round table that will be moderated by our Chief Information and Digital Officer Pedro de Castillo. Please come to the stage with the rest of the panelists.

Thank you very much for the presentation. Good morning everyone and thank you as well for joining us for this round table titled 'Digitalization as a Transformative Pillar for the Entire Cycle of New Hydrogen Infrastructure.' In the next few minutes we would like to explore a little bit more how digitalization can drive the whole processes that compose the value chain of hydrogen. Arturo was telling us this morning: design, planning, construction, maintenance, operation of these new assets. And in this way I think that we have different point of view and we have the privilege. I'm going to first of all introduce our panelists.

I would like to welcome Nina Bergman from Siemens SA. She recently came to Spain to join the executive office of Siemens, only two months here in Spain. So welcome as well to our country. And Nina is the lead of the sustainability strategy and execution at Siemens Portugal and Spain across both internal operations and also customer solutions.

We also have the privilege to have at the table Natalia. Natalia is our lead, in fact, in one of our strategic projects that we are leading right now in Enagás. She's from BIP Consulting and she's the director of building information modeling in Spain. She's helping us as well, as I said, to implement building information modeling in our processes in the new infrastructures.

And also we have the privilege to have another panelist but unfortunately she missed—oh, he just came. Okay. Sorry. Just on time.

So fantastic. I'm going to introduce you while they wear your microphone. Roger is from Rovira i Virgili, a Catalan institution for research and advanced studies. He's a real expert in everything related with complex systems, complex network structures, and his last research focuses—welcome.

Thank you. And he's, as we said, our focus is in the computational and new ways of implementing digitalization in other new projects and Bayesian simulation models. So welcome, Roger. It is important to say—he's very prudent—but it's important to say that he has earned several prestigious international awards, so it's a big privilege to have you here.

So just to begin and let's start because we don't have—well, you have 30 minutes so I think it's okay. But I would like to start with a general question. As I said before, digitalization is expected to change completely the way of thinking different processes in the value chain of hydrogen—as I said, construction, deployment of new infrastructures, and so on. What do you think, from your experience, is the big challenge or the biggest challenge or the biggest opportunity to make this transformation truly effective? So, would you like to start, Nina, and then we can follow the rest?

Yes, I can start. So, first of all, I hope you guys can all hear me. As said, I'm Nina. I'm super happy, thank you. Thanks a lot for the invitation. I just moved to Spain two months ago. I love it. I've been with Siemens for almost six years. So, I think it's a little bit similar to Enagás, right? You join Siemens and then you like it a lot and then you stay for a little longer. And now I have gotten this opportunity to lead the sustainability strategy for Spain and Portugal. So about the biggest challenge, I think we already heard so many of them, but what we always say is the biggest challenge in this transformation is to achieve real efficiency.

Why do you need that? Because we heard that hydrogen projects are still very complex. They're still very cost-heavy, right? And there are a lot of challenges in the ecosystem. There are a lot of challenges in regulations. There's uncertainty. There is still—and it's still a comparably new technology, right? So, there's still a lot to learn. It's always good to learn a lot, but in order to be really efficient, there's a lot you can—in order to be price-efficient as well and profitable. There's a lot of efficiency that you have to achieve. How can you do that? With digitalization, for sure, but you need to do it comprehensively. So you really need to have that data flow, to have that system integration between different systems. You really need to think it comprehensively and you need to really think about how can you actually scale it.

So there's the feasibility part—is the project technically feasible? Are they profitable? But there's also this part of how can I actually scale things up, right? It's not only about making one hydrogen project work. It's about scaling up. It's about making more of them work and about generating long-term value. So how can you do that? How can you be really energy efficient? How can you be process efficient? How can you be proficient in your engineering? So all these things need to be considered. And then there's another point that I always try to make because I'm the sustainability responsible, right? You really have to think sustainability all the way because there's no point in just simply more or less producing green hydrogen if you use a lot of components, a lot of materials that are not really sustainable on the way. So really think comprehensively and think sustainably along the way is what we see as one of the solutions to the biggest challenges.

Thank you very much, Nina. I think, Pedro, that the challenge is the human factor. So changing how people work. We often think in digitalization like models, data platform, and so on. But the real transformation is when the people change their routine. So for instance, the collaboration in a project—we are adopting new tools like Common Data Environments or CDEs that are not just a new tool, are tools that cover all the traditional activities that we normally develop in a project, but in this case inside of the CDE. So approval, share documentation, communication with other stakeholders. This is the activities that we have to do in a common environment.

So to change the work methodology of the people is not easy. So for a company it's a cultural shift and also takes time. Another example better is like standardization. So if we think about project managers and also other people that are working in a project, each person works in a different way. So we have to—if we think about digitalization processes, we need consistency. So we have to implement standards, rules, and so on, in order to convert all these different works and ways to work in a single one. So I think that digitalization and also technology is the key, but together with people that make the transformation more effective.

So first of all, thank you very much for having me and apologies for the momentous entrance.

No worries at all.

Well, because I'm coming from academia, I think I will do what we do in academia, which is say things that are perhaps not very useful but deep, right? So I think we have to step back and think why we are here, right? Why we are talking about digitalization, why—and the reason is because we have a major challenge which is transforming our economy basically, right? The way we generate energy. And then I think this is unprecedented in history. I was thinking about this when I was coming here in the train and I think it's unprecedented because we've done transformations, right? We've done the industrial—well, our ancestors did the industrial revolution or whatever. But I think it's the first time that as a species we sit down and say by 2030 we have to change everything we do, right? So I think that's the real challenge, right? It's a major challenge and then the issue with that is that we don't have time for trial and error, right? We don't have time to go and try, well, let's try to do things this way or let's try to do things in a different way.

And I think that's what's behind the idea of digitalization, right? We are doing digitalization because we can do it, because we've learned lots of things, but also because we have to, because we don't have the opportunity or the luxury of trying things, right? What—in what way does digitalization help us in this sense? Well, it allows us to build models and to predict what's going to happen before it actually happens. Right? I think that's the real goal that we should keep in mind. Right? Again, as I warned, I'm from academia, so I can say these sort of things, right? Yeah. Right. We have to make sure that digitalization helps us in like choosing the shortest path between where we are now and where we want to be in like 10 years or 25 years or whatever, right?

So that's why we need models. That's why we need digital twins. There's a lot of talk about digital twins which are digital models of physical systems which help us to predict what's going to happen before it actually happens. Right? So that we avoid this back and forth that typically happens when we go through a revolution. And for these digital twins, or for these technologies, there are two requirements. One is data and the other is that we make sense of the data and transform this data into models. And my impression is that for the last year, perhaps 20 years or something, we've put a lot of emphasis on building data infrastructures, right, on collecting data, but we've somehow forgotten the other half of the story which is getting knowledge from these data, building models that actually work, that actually help us make predictions about our systems.

And this is what I think is the biggest challenge in digitalization, right? I'm not in a company so I don't have to deal with the human factor or other things, but from the academic perspective, perhaps, or from the perspective of what is the sort of knowledge that we need to generate, I think that's the key. We need to be able to design artificial intelligence algorithms or perhaps physical algorithms or whatever that help us transform this data that we've been storing for a very long time now or a reasonable time now into useful models that actually make the path shorter to where we want to get.

Okay, I agree. Thank you very much. Yeah. Well, let's move to another question. I would like in this case to pitch you specific questions more tailored for your profiles, your specific profiles. I'm going to start with you, Natalia, if you don't mind. And I would like to ask you because you are the person responsible for building information modeling at BIP. What do you think is the next step for BIM and for digital twins to pass through the static model or a static vision, to pass to a real living model and something that can really impact the operation and decision making?

Okay, let me connect this question also with the BIM implementation project that we are currently developing here in Enagás. So from the beginning and also right now that we are defining all the BIM use cases, our goal has never been just to have a BIM aesthetic model if not to reach a digital twin also connected with operation and maintenance. So to transfer a aesthetic BIM model into a digital twin, we need to connect and also to feed data with the model. So data that on one side we have aesthetic data, so data from drawings or from design dimensions of the asset, of the object, equipment information, but also we need to connect with real-time dynamic data directly coming from the field.

So in order to measure the hydrogen flow in a pipeline, sensor that measures a pressure, temperature, energy consumption in a compression station or also more simple data but real-time data like status of a valve, open, close, or broken valve. So all these data are collected by systems like SCADA and when you feed the model with this real-time data is when you stop having this BIM aesthetic model and you reach a real-life system, a real-life platform. So obviously here the next step is the creation of an asset control room with digital panels that you can see the entire hydrogen infrastructure in order to monitor several data like alarms, issues, hydrogen flow, and also the following next step of the maintenance of a specific asset.

So I think that is very useful also to support the decision-making activities in real time. So to close the question, I think that the natural evolution of the BIM models are not just to digitalize a drawing if not to reach a real-life system, always connected and ready for the works next.

Okay, thank you very much, Natalia. I'm going to ask you, Roger. And before the question I'm going to ask you, I would like to introduce a little bit because you are helping us or you are participating actively from the Rovira i Virgili University in a research project that we are leading and in which are other institutions and companies working with us, which is Green Hydrogen Pipes. This project aims to demonstrate how technically and also from an economical point of view it is viable to implement a green value chain of hydrogen. There are three big challenges in this project. The first one of these challenges is an efficient production of hydrogen using proton exchange membranes for an electrolyser. Also another thing that is a big challenge for this project is how to store hydrogen using liquid organic hydrogen carriers.

And the last one, perhaps the most innovative that is in this project, is how in the process of injection of this hydrogen in high-pressure networks. So it's in this part of the project I think in which we have more innovative solutions oriented as well to computational and fluid cycle in which what we are working on. And also it is interesting as well to understand that this project also has the approach of looking for sector coupling and the coupling that we have with electricity, hydrogen, and gas. So what I would like to ask you, Roger, in this sense and related with this real project, because it is a research project but in the real world, I think it's a very intensive and a very powerful project. What do you think are the greatest solutions or data solutions that can have more impact in hydrogen and also in sector coupling?

So indeed, we've been very happy to participate in this project in Hydrogen Pipes. It was a very ambitious project as you said because it goes from the generation of hydrogen using renewable energies to storage to distribution, and so the whole value chain, let's say, of hydrogen, right? And our part in there was precisely to build a large-scale digital twin for these systems, right? First of subsystems of these systems and then try to couple them, which was the real challenge, right? So in building these digital twins, you were mentioning that for some systems we can just use physical knowledge or we can use blueprints or whatever, and that's fine, that's what we should do for systems that are very well controlled that we've designed and we know how they work.

But for this particular project, we wanted to integrate this with solar energy production, electricity production, with gas demand or hydrogen demand at the other end of the chain. So physical models are not enough in there, right? When we want to build digital twins of this whole integrated system, let's say, or coupled system, we need some components that are well described by physical models and that's all right. But when we want to couple them, we need something else, right? Because there are just too many things going on. And there we go to the other extreme of the modeling spectrum and we try to use artificial intelligence, right? I think that's something that, well, it's in your phones, it's in your tablet, it's in our computers, we write proposals using artificial intelligence, we make drawings, so we also use artificial intelligence to build digital twins, right?

But I think that what's really the take-home message from this part for our participation in this project is that there is some middle ground that it's very promising and that's what I was thinking is probably the key technology that we should pay more attention to in the future. And that is in this spectrum of modeling between physical models that are very well grounded on reality, we know what they are doing, we know the physics, when we want to simulate flow on a pipe we do CFD and we can do this with computers and so on—between this, which is very expensive to get right, simulating a pipe with hydrogen is very expensive, it's slow, right?—between this end and the artificial intelligence black-box thing that we are tending to go now, there is a middle ground in which we develop artificial intelligence models that are similar to the physical models. Right? I think that the key technology is trying to use artificial intelligence but not to design black-box algorithms that are unreliable when you ask them to extrapolate or things like this. But using artificial intelligence to build models or digital twins that are based on models that are similar to the physical models that we are used to using in science and engineering. And there are several advantages.

So one of the advantages as I said, when you ask artificial intelligence to extrapolate to new situations, that usually gives rise to trouble. So you ask a neural

A network with billions of parameters to predict something that it's never seen before, and you can get basically anything. Another problem is that it doesn't give you an estimate of the plausibility of the predictions. So you ask ChatGPT to write something, it writes something, but you don't know if that's the most likely thing that should have been written, or there are other things that are equally appropriate to the context. And so on. The same happens when we model a system. And so I think this modeling, uncertainty, the ability to extrapolate, and interpretability — these are key factors that we should be looking for in new artificial intelligence technologies that help us to build models, especially when we want to integrate things and couple some of these subsystems that on their own are relatively okay and easy to understand.

Okay. Thank you very much. Very interesting. I'm going with you, Nina. In your case, from Siemens' perspective and your large experience in different solutions that cover a lot of processes — because we were talking this morning about that — it is true that yesterday even we had a workshop with your company and we could see that you have solutions almost for everything, as we were telling this morning. One of the things that I would like to ask you is about digital twins, because we were also talking that today we have to think that perhaps we are going to have digital assets or native digital assets instead of having physical ones at the beginning. So in this way, I would like to know, in your experience, how you define truly a real operational digital twin, what kind of use cases you identify that are more mature, and above all in terms of sustainability, efficiency, and reduction of environmental impact.

Yes, super happy to. So first of all, I think we have a lot of parallels here, which is good to see. It's always good to sit together with academics, so very good. First of all, at Siemens, we're obsessed with digital twins. And maybe to explain a little bit, because that's a lot of the confusion usually — we're not Siemens Energy, we're Siemens AG. So we've been one company, but now we're two companies, but still working very closely together. So we're not the ones actually producing electrolyzers. We do a lot of digital twins, for example. We have a huge sustainability portfolio. As you just said, sometimes it's a little confusing because we have all the solutions for the smart building part, the factory part, and mobility. So these are the three things, just to explain a little bit what Siemens is doing. When it comes to digital twins, we already heard a couple of the points I wanted to make. But for us, and this is really our strategy also as Siemens on a headquarters level — it's important to connect the real and the digital world. So OT world and IT world, you already mentioned it. It's super important to understand what are the physical components behind, what are the physical reactions behind, how are the OT systems actually behaving — that's super interesting. And then it's super crucial to understand and then take it to the next level and actually connect it with the IT world, and then building all these cool technologies like digital twins.

The second topic was already mentioned as well — you really need to achieve optimization through the whole value chain. So that is super crucial. Really starting with the process, with the engineering part, all the way to production, to maintenance, to operations. So for us it's super crucial that you have this comprehensive understanding and that you really can see the big picture of how your infrastructure production looks like. And the third thing you actually also mentioned — it's super important that you also have actionable insights that you generate from it. It's nice if you can simulate the whole world and then you have nice little pictures, but if you cannot get actionable, real-time insights, real-time recommendations from the system, it doesn't provide you that much value. What we always try to speak about a lot is this digital native hydrogen plant we call it. So as said, Siemens does a lot of projects around the world in a lot of different verticals. And already a couple of years ago we came up with the digital native plant. We have a couple of them ourselves, which is always good to test a little bit the technology in our own company. We have one of them in China. We have another one in Erlangen. So very German. And we have this concept also for hydrogen plants now. So what is the idea? Again, really end to end over the whole value chain, have one digital twin, a lot of digital twins combined together, that can simulate really the whole value chain end to end. So you can really see — you can look into your manufacturing processes, you can look into your maintenance processes, you can look into your commissioning processes, you can look into the transportation part of things, the delivery part of things. So this is really one offering that we see a huge value in, because this is really giving you the big picture. But there's obviously a lot of other smaller use cases that also work super nicely. For example, there's what we also offer — an energy digital twin. So what do you put in? You say these are my decarbonization goals for this specific plant, for this value chain. And then it pretty much simulates — okay, so what kind of renewables do you need? What is the best energy mix? What is the best energy sourcing? When do I buy energy? These kind of things can all be done within one simulation model. Then there is a transportation digital twin. We already heard a lot that transportation infrastructure — these huge pipes that we have — are very complex, are very expensive. And in the end, what you could do with a solution like a digital twin is really simulating the flows — the flow of the hydrogen, the flow of the water, whatever it is that you try to do — and then find out where can I optimize this in the end, where do I need pumps, where I don't need them anymore. So it's a very comprehensive solution. And then as you said, AI — we see this as a huge future maker in the end, because it will take everything to the next level. We will be able to use even more data for our digital twins, we will be able to simulate even more scenarios, learn more in a more complex environment with all these changes that we saw in the beginning — more regulations coming up, more uncertainties coming up. You will be able to simulate all these scenarios and then in the end hopefully take the best decision for the whole ecosystem and for the whole infrastructure.

Exactly. Thank you very much, Nina. Well, I think that more or less we are reaching the end of the session. I would like to ask you if you can share with the audience a headline, some sentences or messages that you would like in order to wrap up or summarize your vision and your perspective in your different profiles and experience. So in this case, we can start with you.

Well, so just to summarize what I've said, and I'm very happy to see that academia is not so far from the real world. Lots of common challenges and so on. But yeah, we have a major challenge which is urgent. It's not that we have all the time in the world to solve it. For this, we need computers, we need computation, we need digitalization. We need to go farther from just collecting data and pretending that that's doing the work. We have to use this data, build digital twins, build models and so on. And then in terms of what directly affects me the most, I think we know a lot about physical models. We see artificial intelligence as a potential ally in the future, or perhaps soon. And there is this middle ground of a new kind of artificial intelligence, interpretable, that gives you ideas about risks and about probabilities, that extrapolates well and so on, that I think we need to explore more and put more resources into.

Okay. Thank you, Nina.

Yes. For me, it's digitalize as soon as possible. Digitalize the whole value chain, but do it smart. Have a plan and have sustainability in mind all the steps on the way.

Great. Thank you very much. That's a very good point. And Natalia.

Yes, for me, I would like to leave here the message that digitalization, technology, and also people are the key pillars to ensure quality, safety, and also sustainable infrastructure throughout the entire life cycle of the assets. I mean the engineering, construction, and also operation and maintenance. This is the message. Also, obviously thank you to Enagás for inviting us and also me in this round table. It's a pleasure.

Okay. Thank you very much. Well, I think that we have more or less covered all of the objectives that we had at the beginning of this round table. Listening to you, I think I was sure and it is a real privilege to have you here. And just to sum up, I can see that we have seen that digitalization in a nutshell is not just a tool. I think that we can think of it as a real structural lever that can change hydrogen infrastructure in the sense of being more resilient, more efficient, and sustainable. It's one of the main things that have appeared here at the table. And I think that to achieve this, and it's one of the things that I caught in your messages, is that we have to connect data, we have to connect people, and we have to connect decisions. So thank you very much for your participation. It has been a big pleasure.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you the moderator and the rest of the panelists. It has been a very insightful session. Now we will have a coffee break of 25 minutes. I think at 11:30 we will be here again. So to those who are following us on streaming, we will be here at 11:30. Thank you very much.

Hi, we are waiting one minute because the streaming — we have told the ones that are following us on the streaming that we start at 11:35. So one minute remaining.

Okay. So let's start again with the next round table. We hope you have enjoyed the coffee break and now we continue with the next interesting round table. The role of the original equipment manufacturers to build a European hydrogen network. The role of the original equipment manufacturer is key for the energy transition, developing innovative technologies and efficient catalysts that make it possible for the production, transmission, storage, distribution, and end use of green hydrogen. So please give a warm welcome to the next round table that will be moderated by the director of technical services and technology, Pedro Rubio. Please come to the stage with the rest of the panelists. Thank you very much.

Good morning everyone. It's a pleasure to welcome you to this round table focused on the critical role that the OEM are going to have in developing a network — efficient, robust, and interconnected — hydrogen European network. We are at a pivotal moment. The European Commission has placed hydrogen infrastructures at the heart of its strategy to achieve energy independence, industrial competitiveness, and climate neutrality. In this context, the role of the original equipment manufacturers is going to be more than a technology provider — it's going to be a critical strategic partner in reshaping this energy system. Today we are joined by representatives of five companies leading this transformation. Each of them contributes to a vital piece of the puzzle which together we are assembling. Thank you for joining us at this round table and let's begin with Dr. Hogar, representing Mannesmann Line Pipe. He is a mechanical engineer with over 25 years of experience in material science, innovation, and quality assurance, leading research and development initiatives at Mannesmann Line Pipe since 2007. He brings deep expertise from both industry and academia, including roles at Sacher AG and the University of CESM. His work bridges cutting-edge research and industrial application in the steel and pipe sectors.

Good morning. Hello.

What's the state of technological maturity of your hydrogen pipeline technology, specifically in terms of its current development stage, technological capabilities, and scalable production capacity?

Thanks Pedro for the first short introduction and warm welcome from me. And first of all, a big thanks to Enagás to have the opportunity to speak here for us and for me. We at Mannesmann Line Pipe work in the field of hydrogen technology for more than 15 years — started 15 years ago — and now are ready with our Mannesmann H-ready pipes in all the dimensions we offer, from 4 inches to 24 inches, all the wall thickness up to 1 inch, all the material grades that are typical for the pipeline industry. And together with all our sister companies, I'm also ready to deliver pipes up to 64 inches in the whole Salzgitter Group. And one advantage for our hydrogen pipes is that we have a whole production route located in Germany, starting from the steelmaking process. This gives us the opportunity to have a close collaboration with our material suppliers to work in the field of material development. Coming to this, we have to look at the requirements that are needed for H2 pipes. So we work on close collaborations with the pipeline operators, look at the bilateral — or in the case of the European Pipeline Research Group, we look at the requirements in standards and also develop requirements further on, and also work in hydrogen standardization to advance and optimize the requirements. And of course, above all, we qualify our pipes according to these standards. We do a lot of hydrogen tests, slow strain rate tests, K1H tests, J-R tests and so on, and share these results with the customers in publications and wherever, so that the customer knows what he will get if he orders a pipe from Mannesmann Line Pipe. But all this is in a more or less changing process. Requirements are changing, the tests — how to carry out the tests — are changing. And there are several unsolved questions, like how to deal with testing during the production, because the hydrogen tests last a long time and normally the customers don't have this time from the production of the pipes to the delivery. And also looking not only at the pipe infrastructure but also at hydrogen storage, because during winter times, if it's dark, if there's no wind, you need these storages like caverns, and they have demanding requirements like 200, 250 bars or above. They have humidity in the gas, there is hydrogen sulfide maybe in the gas, and this has not been fully tested or anchored in the standards. This is also something we are working on. So in the end, we are ready to assist the projects of our customers. And now the customers — the pipeline operators — need the security in several questions to build a reliable pipeline infrastructure, like the financial aspects, like the political will, the political authorization, and so on.

Thank you, Hogar, for your contribution. So our next guest is Bahini, representing Burkhardt Compression. It is a privilege to introduce a pioneering leader in the global transition to sustainable energy. With over three decades of experience in the energy, chemical, and automotive sectors in the US and Europe, Bahini has dedicated her career to advancing innovative and impactful technologies. In her current role as business development manager for hydrogen mobility and energy at Burkhardt Compression, she is at the forefront of shaping the hydrogen economy. Beyond her corporate role, she is a global speaker on one of the most critical topics of our time — the energy transition. So hi Bahini, from your perspective, what are the most significant factors influencing the maturity and deployment of hydrogen compression technologies in the context of the European hydrogen backbone?

Thank you Pedro. On behalf of Burkhardt, I'd like to personally thank you for inviting us. It's an honor and a privilege to be here and to be sharing the panel with some esteemed panelists here. Burkhardt Compression — we create leading compressor systems, in particular for the European hydrogen backbone. We are devoted towards creating a sustainable energy future. In my view, there are some key factors which are interrelated in particular for the deployment of mature compression technologies keeping in mind the European hydrogen backbone. Number one is technology is key. Performance is key. When we look at compression systems, we're looking at large quantities and volumes of hydrogen gas that has to be handled at elevated pressures of 100 bar and beyond, depending upon what the pipeline segment is. Number two also that we have to keep in mind is the reliability of these compressor systems, because when we try to integrate in particular with cross-border infrastructure, the requirements are a little different, varies between one country to the other. So that's another point that we need to keep in mind. And the third point is maintenance. There are certain areas which might be remote and might require to go there and maintain. So the mature compressor systems have to be adaptable, have to be flexible, so they can incorporate all this. Burkhardt Compression for the past 50 years — we have experience in hydrogen compression. We've got credible references in the field, and we have a lot of field service engineers who are very good at what they do in terms of maintaining our compression systems. The second most important point is also the choice of materials that are used for designing and manufacturing the compression systems. We're all very familiar with the embrittlement of hydrogen which is a known challenge. There's a lot of development that is happening also in coatings, in sealing systems, in composite systems. That's good for long-term durability, but we still have a little bit of ways to go, especially at elevated pressures at 900 bar and beyond for the mobility applications. The thing that differentiates Burkhardt is that we are an R&D company. We dedicate a lot of time on innovation. We have our own in-house materials, the PersTO material and also the state-of-the-art ReDurA sealing systems. So it's important to have durability of these wear and tear parts for a longer duration of time because these compressors are on the field for 40, 50 years and beyond. So it's important to have not only the technology part but also the material part.

The third and most important is the integration of the compressor systems into the European hydrogen backbone. Because I think most of us know that until 2035 there will probably be a lot of repurposed natural gas pipelines. So our compressor systems have to be adaptable, have to be flexible, to incorporate not only the natural gas but then also be adapted when the technical requirements for hydrogen come into play. We have developed a solution around that because we have a containerized system, primarily for high-pressure mobility applications, where you have the compressor, the auxiliaries, the motor — all that in a container — and it's very easy to deploy. It takes only a day to install it on site. So that's another thing that we bring in, mainly the integration. How do you integrate the compressors into the European hydrogen backbone? One of the things that was talked about in the morning was the uncertainty about the regulations, the operating protocols for hydrogen compressors, the safety certifications. I know Europe, especially the 28 member states, they're trying to harmonize that. But Pedro, that becomes one of the challenges for the OEMs — if we know the scale, then we are able to plan and manufacture those. But we are already ahead of the curve and we're looking at these containerized solutions that we will be deploying if the opportunity arises. Last but not the least, it's always the total cost of ownership for hydrogen, in particular from the production to the transportation to the end use. And I know investors are looking at derisking. How do we derisk projects? Market mechanisms, subsidies — but I think in my view it is probably going to be the long-term offtake agreements which will propel the hydrogen market at scale. So in closing, I believe hydrogen is that beacon of hope for energy transition and it's a key driver to bringing our CO2 emissions down, and Burkhardt is there all the step of the way for the European hydrogen backbone. We'd like to participate in that. Thank you for the opportunity.

So let's jump to our next guest, Dr. Olga Koska, representing Endress+Hauser. Olga holds a PhD in chemistry from the Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona and is a leading expert in renewable energy innovation with extensive experience in industrial automation and process optimization. Olga currently leads the development of advanced measurement technologies at Endress+Hauser, focusing on green hydrogen production and distribution, helping industries transition toward cleaner and more efficient energy systems. What are the main challenges faced by a leading company in industrial process measurement and automation?

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for the introduction, Pedro, and thank you for having us and inviting us to take part in this round table. So yes, the first challenge would be of course cost — is the first thing that comes to our mind. I think that all of us that work in here, our goal is to make hydrogen affordable, make it competitive compared to the counterparts of the fossil ways. So the situation right now at the market is like the European market — it's around 3 to 8 euros for green hydrogen depending on the technology, whereas the fossil, the crude oil, is 1.5 to 2 euros. So there is a huge price gap. And what we have observed is that developers are challenged by this price gap. However, very surprisingly, when we enter the project there is a certain tendency to over-instrument the projects. So everyone gets very excited because those projects are very fancy, they are very well known, and everyone just wants to do it well and that's fine, that's great. But sometimes we just have to go back and concentrate on what's important. So my advice would be to really know which points that you are going to measure are really important and which ones are maybe less important. So choose the best technology for the right point. A company like ours, we have a big variety of instrumentation and we can provide the right instrumentation for the right point. So there is no problem in it. But be sure that you have identified those crucial points. For example, at the end of the electrolyzer, after the purifier, where you have to monitor the quality of the hydrogen. So you have to basically measure oxygen and humidity because there is nothing else, at very low levels. So be sure to put a good analyzer there. Go for a laser analyzer. They are in the industry for years. They are well known. Then you even gain on the maintenance in the future. Another point would be custody transfer, where you really have to have a good measurement there because it's money. So go for a Coriolis flow meter if the pressure allows you, of course. Don't gamble on the points that are important. Then the second challenge probably would be the molecule itself. We all know that hydrogen is a very challenging molecule — small molecule, very volatile. It can easily permeate the materials and you work in extreme conditions. So very high pressure or very low pressure. Recently we have received a lot of requests of one of those challenging points. So it's at the end of the electrolyzer where you really want to be sure that what the provider of the electrolyzer is telling you that is providing you is true. So depending on the electrolyzer it can be very challenging. You can be at very low pressure, sometime atmospheric, and then you have very high nominal diameter and it's really hard to measure that.

The third one I think that it would be the regulations. This is something that we are all aware of. There is a big lack of regulation for hydrogen, a standardized one and only for hydrogen. We have recently joined — we are participating in a project of Iberdrola and BP in Cartagena. So you know that they have a joint venture, a very nice project, I think the biggest one in Spain now — an electrolyzer of 25 megawatts. Of course, the source of electricity is renewable. The goal is to provide 2,800 tons a year more or less. So a lot of green energy, and the goal is to substitute the gray hydrogen with the green hydrogen. So in order to be more sustainable, a very beautiful project, we are very happy to participate in it. But even when you sit with people that work for a long time in this market, we still have these discussions of which regulation to choose, because you have the regulation that exists in the market and it was not created for hydrogen. So you have MIDIS, you have OIML — horrible to pronounce — and you have to choose. There you have three options and you are in a discussion with your client which one to apply and which one is better, knowing that even if you choose it's not perfect, it was not created for hydrogen. So I think that there is a big gap that we have to work on because we need to care about safety and traceability of the hydrogen. So I think that we should really sit together, all the people from the value chain, and work on that, because it creates delays, it can create additional cost, and it is not necessary. It is just a matter of working on that. Then you have digitalization, but I think I'm running out of time and it was discussed before. But yet there is a lot of work because you have instrumentation of different digital maturity — how to integrate it together can be a challenge. So yes, I think a lot of them, but still let's be positive, they can be sorted out.

Very interesting, all that. It's very interesting you mention. Our upcoming guest is Mr. Federico Ricotti, representing SLB Valves. Federico holds a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Pavia and a master's degree from the Polytechnic of Milan. Since 2016, he has been valve engineering manager at the Grosio facility. In this role, he oversees the design of valves and equipment and is responsible for all growth products and the rest of the facility worldwide. One of his recent achievements is a new patent recognition as an inventor for an innovative valve concept providing superior isolation and safety for operators. So what are the main challenges in designing and manufacturing valves for hydrogen service, and what experience does your company have in this field?

Thank you for the question, Pedro. First of all, I would like to thank Enagás for the invitation here. Very proud to be here and discuss with all of you about this matter. Time is running, it's brutal, calm down there. So we can talk one week or more about hydrogen and valves, but to reply to your question about the main challenges, we have to say that even if we know — and some of you guys already mentioned some of the challenges — we are not inventing a new wheel. So we start from a proven use technology, to have a solid background of valves installed in several applications, from very challenging ones containing H2S, and also leveraging on our history. Our Cameron SLB valves exist since 100 years or more, and the facility where I'm sitting in was founded in 1971. So more than 54 years of experience in different applications. We are making valves from 1 inch, 20 kilograms, to 64 inches and more — 100 tons. And of course each single design of valve has a different challenge. From low pressure, class 150 — you talk about low pressure versus high pressure — the challenges are different. And so from 150 class, 19 bar, to 15 ksi, so 1,000 bar or more. We are expecting that the major infrastructure of hydrogen pipeline will be around 600 class, 100 bar, and 900 class, maximum 1,500 class. So starting with the legacy design, we grouped all the subject matter experts of my team and also other experts around the globe in our company to look at what is existing, what is working, and implementing what I like to say minor modifications to accommodate hydrogen. We have valves stored in hydrogen service since decades, like we have valves stored in ammonia. This morning we talked about ammonia as a potential vector of hydrogen. Our old record of valving hydrogen and ammonia belong to 1983, well before the current fashion and rush to have a hydrogen-ready valve. So starting from that, it's true that there was a lack of code, industrial standard, and I'll talk in a minute about this. Secondly, our company is working a lot in R&D, and before going to the market with a nice fancy statement — hydrogen-ready valve — we have done all the due diligence to test and prove that the material, not only metallic but as well non-metallic material, have been tested before putting the valve in service. Leveraging as said the previous experience, the majority of the valves we supply for hydrogen service in the past were for refinery and process applications. Now the need is for gas pipeline applications.

The program of testing in our company was very extensive. We started some years back. I was deeply involved in testing of metallic material. We talk about embrittlement, ductility of the material, cracking, propagation. And literature was already having a good background on the metal part, not so much in terms of non-metallic material. I started working as a valve leader in 2008, 17 years ago, and when talking about elastomer, rubber, and thermoplastic material, gasket sealing were considered a minor item. Now no more — if there is a failure of a gasket in a valve it could result in a catastrophic happening, and so we have to avoid this. So no more called minor item, and this item were subjected to extensive testing. The problem is that when we started there was not a guideline, there was nothing written on how to test gasket material in hydrogen. So I grouped again my team and all the brains came up with a draft of protocol for testing seals and materials in hydrogen. We started from a well-consolidated NORSOK M-710 with modification to accommodate the testing in hydrogen. And what we looked for — we checked for rapid gas decompression issues, which is also happening in natural gas or methane, but hydrogen is a small molecule. So our testing was about to look at what is the difference between methane mixed with H2S for example and hydrogen. So we did extensive testing on hydrogen 100%, like we did 100% CO2 and in ammonia, to prove the gaskets are good and not suffering any failure. Then we did the permeability test and then we did also aging test. Comparing the results with the previous tests already done, coming up at the end with a major takeaway: if the seals are already qualified for 100% CO2, they are also good for 100% hydrogen. So CO2 attack is more severe than hydrogen. But we were not just testing and qualifying metallic material and non-metallic material. Well before the current fashion, we were already testing the valves in our factory, in our laboratory testing department. Of course in the factory we cannot use hydrogen for safety reasons. So we have tested the valves using 100% helium. Helium, as you know, is a small molecule and so represents very well what can happen with hydrogen. Qualification was done first for emission to atmosphere — a campaign, a lot of money were spent to qualify a majority of our valves. We have many valve types: ball valves, gate valves, check valves, wing check, side entry, top entry, fully welded and so on. Our qualification was to avoid any leakage to atmosphere. Then we tested also true bore leakage, seat to ball. Many valves tested with water, a lot of valves tested with nitrogen at high pressure. But in order to represent the leak we can obtain with hydrogen, we also used helium there where suitable. The results were very good. Then, since one of the main challenges was the lack of code, I was assigned to be a member of the task group of API 6D developing an annex in the committee. Either we are not only valve makers — also our friends, competitors, but also operators, final clients, and also subject matter experts, metallurgists for the metal part, but also suppliers of gasket sealing elements, etc. All the brains shared their ideas and their knowledge, and I think we obtained a very good result. So Annex M is now incorporated and published as an addendum of API 6D 25th edition. This is the first milestone for having valve makers, and also in general other product makers, a guideline to test and qualify the valve in hydrogen service. It was a very good result and also a very long journey, because we started two years back. We talked about valve testing, quality requirements, etc. And another challenge is cost — there are different hydrogen specification levels in this Annex M, from one to four, to avoid overspec all the time. Everyone would like to have the valve perfectly suitable for all the conditions — high pressure, high temperature, blowdown — but there is also a matter about risk perception. Hydrogen specification level one is the less demanding one. Hydrogen specification level four is the most demanding one, because you can understand easily that the risk associated with the valve or product running hydrogen is very different if the valve is in a pipeline in the middle of the desert, in the middle of the jungle, or close by residential buildings. So final users can select different hydrogen specification levels and increase the quality checks and the testing requirements and validation to have at the end a very safe and reliable product.

Thank you very much. Very interesting, Federico. Our last speaker is Marco Baldini, representing Baker Hughes. Marco graduated in industrial engineering from the University of Rome. He works as a hydrogen solution architect for gas turbines and systems in the Climate Technology Solutions organization at Baker Hughes since 2002. He supports worldwide energy companies in the early engagement phases, evaluating viable solutions toward net-zero emissions. He develops tailor-made feasibility studies and business cases with the customer's viewpoint and impacts in mind. At what stage of technological maturity is Baker Hughes' hydrogen-fueled gas turbine technology, and is there any further development in place, Marco?

Thank you Pedro, and thanks to Enagás, to the people that are connected on streaming, the people that are in this room. It's really a pleasure to be part of this panel session. We can say that Baker Hughes is driving the hydrogen revolution, starting from its legacy and experience, having more than 30 years of experience in burning high hydrogen content, more than 70 units running worldwide. But also we have 15 years since we realized the first gas turbine able to burn 100% hydrogen. I'm thrilled to be here today to show a gas turbine that could change the world. Our NovaLT16 is a 16-megawatt gas turbine able to burn 100% hydrogen today and is able to keep the NOx emissions low, down to 25 ppm, having a selective catalytic reduction system at exhaust. This machine is the unique machine in the world able to start up on hydrogen. This is a perfect fit for green hydrogen production plants and this gives the opportunity also to be a value-added solution in mechanical drive applications. Furthermore, this machine is able to switch on the fly between natural gas and hydrogen, and this gives strong reliability on these units and for the operator that can have the same performance. Last but not the least, we are offering the same maintenance plan as natural gas, 35,000 operating hours with the fast energy swap. This gives a lot of availability of the machine. Our gas turbine is not a prototype — it has been tested at the lab in 2022 to define the challenges on the combustion system, and we have performed an extensive test campaign from December 2023 to March 2024 to verify all the parameters, the emissions, the performance, and to have a smooth operation. This is important in order to have a machine that is ready for the market for our customer. We already sold units for a blue hydrogen project in Canada, thanks to the cooperation with our partners. And as someone said this morning, it is really important to cooperate with our customers to reach this great milestone — to burn hydrogen in our gas turbines and to have hydrogen available to reduce CO2 emissions. We can use this gas turbine in power generation, combined cycle, cogeneration, but also in mechanical drive applications, and this could be a great driver for the European backbone. Considering the impact of and the increase of renewables, we need to have a system that is really flexible and dispatchable. Thermal turbines are really the answer in order to have a reliable grid, because they can have key special applications like load following, peaking, as backup. So there are many applications, but it can also be considered a great solution for long-term energy demands.

Our gas turbines also have the possibility to burn 100% hydrogen with low emissions. We are working with some partners like Equinor and Snam, to mention a few, and it is also part of a European Union-funded program called IPMGT, where we are going to have a combustor that will be tested this winter in our lab facility, where we are going to reach less than 25 ppm without having any catalyst or diluent. This will have a great possibility to deliver this product and test again the entire system in our hydrogen village in Florence.

Thank you very much. We have some minutes more, so I would like just to be kind enough to share a final message regarding the maturity of your technology and each of your companies, starting with you for instance.

Thank you again. In my view, I think there are three key factors. One is there needs to be collaboration between all the ecosystem players along the value chain because each of us brings a strength, and if you're all able to collaborate together, that's point number one. Point number two is the mismatch between the production side and the demand side, and if there is more certainty on the long-term uptake agreements, that will help pick up the demand side, and then the production and the demand side would be in sync. I think the last point is also for companies like Burckhardt where we are ready to scale up and deploy at scale, that comes with certainty, the market certainty, which is also the cost uncertainty that Algo has also mentioned, but also the harmonization about what certifications are needed for hydrogen compression, what are some of the policies and regulations. If that could be a little bit more clear, it would help companies like ours to deploy at scale because that brings the cost down. So those are the three key messages.

Thank you. Thank you. Marco, with you.

Thank you again, Pedro. I believe that I like the sentence that we heard before: no hydrogen now, and we have climate technology solution to fully decarbonize today. This is really important because I believe our partner — not our customer, our partner — needs to understand what are the bricks that are missing, but starting to build for what is ready. And we have climate technology solutions to support our customer. And I fully agree with Vahini, it's important also to cooperate in the entire value chain where we can understand what are the challenges, and we can also cooperate with the other OEM to have a hydrogen value chain that is sustainable for our customer.

Thank you. Thank you. Michael Hol, could you share some?

Thanks again. From my point of view, I think what we heard already, there are several questions to be answered in the future, like where is the hydrogen coming from? Where is it going to? What is the application? What is the hydrogen — is it pure hydrogen? Is it a blend, 10%, 20%? And there are several more questions to be answered. And I think what we all have together in common is that we want to be the egg or are we the chicken? You can decide for yourself. So we have to be ready before the hydrogen is needed, is really, really needed. We have to be ready, and it's very important to talk together, to have regulations, to have requirements ready that are needed in the future to build a safe and reliable and from the cost point also, of course, infrastructure for hydrogen transport and storage.

Thank you. Olga, your turn.

Thank you very much. So from our perspective, the perspective of the technology provider, I feel that when we enter a project there is still some uncertainty, there are still some points that we are not sure. So we have to be patient to work on that. There is part of the work that depends only on us, so we have to work with our technology, be sure that the solution that we are providing is the right one that our client and the application needs. But then there are still a lot of factors that we don't have influence on, and it affects a lot the project. So we have mentioned the regulation, and I do agree with Vahini that we really have to work together to create one that would be standardized, that would enclose all types of projects, so that you don't lose time and you don't lose precious money that we need to make the project affordable on things that can be avoided. So yeah.

Thank you again. Your last minute. I see the count.