I brought you your, you know, you've got your very own recipe. It's your vegan lasagna.
Yeah. So, come on, man.
Yeah. So, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be doing this while we're going, but um...
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was the... Yeah, I should finish the sentence. Made me, shouldn't I? [laughter] Um, made me vom.
I, yeah, I, 'cause I kind of thought I was saying to your team like, um, this recipe, normally I, when I'm dreaming a recipe, typically I can get at least 85% there from a dream, right? I can see it, I can imagine it, I can taste it, I can smell it honestly, truly. And so normally on the first cook-up I get 90% roughly.
Um, and then I finesse it. Right. This one is probably, this of all the recipes of 7,000 in 25 years of writing, yeah, this is actually the toughest one.
Yeah, just 'cause I needed to keep going back to try and get that intensity of flavor back and the texture and stuff like that.
It's a good, it's a good dish now. And, and, um, yeah, so I did one for you for today, but more importantly, I've made three that are in the fridge for you to put in the freezer.
And of course, 'cause it's vegan, there ain't much perishable like so, you know, don't worry about the meat hanging about.
You could, you could, you could leave it out. Well, the good thing about this is then you leave it out for about seven, eight years.
And it'll still be absolutely fine.
Yeah. This is the upside.
It's mainly, the main ingredient is prayer.
Yeah. [laughter] But a lot of love. A lot of love.
That's so kind of you. Are we going to...
I'll put it down. But you can, I don't want you to feel the pressure to eat it.
No, I do. I, no, I don't feel any pressure.
Do you want me to serve you?
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, please. I'd love that.
Um, so yeah. Anyway, so I'm very good. Thank you. We got the, the... Are you having some?
Uh, I've eaten already. I just had a big steak. [laughter]
Um, unbelievable. Yeah, sorry. Uh, I'm going to have some, but um, we have to, I'm going to try some straight away, but we get a lot of complaints when we eat on this, um, podcast.
I guess you can edit it though, can't you?
We can do, but it's still, people find it really upsetting.
Put your music on. Oh my god. Hi, I'm Jamie Oliver and I'm going to be on the Romesh show.
It's the Romesh Ranganathan. Oh, shut up, Romesh.
This episode is brought to you by Counseling Directory. I've been very open about my mental health struggles over the years. I've tried everything from meditation to hypnotherapy. I like to keep an open mind. But something that's really helped me is therapy. I think it can be great if you struggle with anxiety, if you're going through something like a breakup or a loss. It can also be really good if you just need someone to talk to that isn't your partner or your dog. Sometimes it can though feel like even finding a therapist is an uphill struggle. Where do I look? Are they legit? How do I know who's going to be right for me? So that's why I think Counseling Directory is so great. It helps you find a therapist that's right for you, whether you want to see someone face to face or online. They have over 29,000 therapists and counselors across the UK. So even if you're picky, you should be able to find someone. And all of the therapists on the directory are verified. You can take the time to read their personal profiles, learn a bit about them and how they work, and then contact the ones that you like in your own time. And that, I think, makes the whole thing a little bit less scary. If you've been thinking about therapy, visit Counseling Directory and find a therapist that's right for you.
Because I, I came on your show and that was the, the whole thing was since I've been vegan, I haven't been able to have like a luxurious lasagna. It's all fresh and blah blah blah. So, and it wasn't creamy and sort of it didn't feel like a treat.
And so, you made this thing. I came in with my mom.
Uh, my mom got quite drunk. I don't know if you remember.
Yeah. Batched cocktails. She was all over that. Is she still drinking a lot?
Um, [laughter] love you, Shanty. I love you.
Yeah. That was when we first realized she had a problem. [laughter] No, 'cause she was, she was heckling me. I don't know if you remember. Because you said, 'Right, I've shown you how to do it. Good luck.' Yeah.
And then I'm just sort of trying to make it. She's going, 'You're not as good as Jamie.' And I go, 'Yeah, obviously it's Jamie Oliver.'
It was so bad. She just loved me. And just like literally did verbal cauliflowers at you, didn't she? Like you won't get it.
It was really horrible. You're [__] and you know you are. [laughter]
It was so bad. Um, right. That was delicious. But I've got to intro you now.
Okay.
Okay. My guest today is a global force in the food world who's been cooking since he was 8 years old at his parents' pub. He's a chef, restaurant, TV presenter, and writer, but he's also had a huge impact on the way we eat. From improving our kids' school dinners, latest turkey twisters, to changing the way we choose ingredients and cook with his pucker recipes. His vegan lasagna can bring a grown man to tears, so I've heard. Since the Naked Chef days, an estimated 67 million people around the world have watched his programs, and he's sold over 50 million books. His latest 20-minute meals, Real Fast Food, is out now, and he's reached that very special level of fame where you can be known by your first name alone, like Jesus, Oprah, and Beyonce. It's Jamie, everybody. Jamie Oliver, MBE, on the podcast.
What do you think? You like that?
Yeah. I mean, I, I've never seen you scripted before. That's amazing. Yeah, that's, that's... Do you write that?
The team put it together. I have to approve it. I'll be honest with you. I wanted it to be a bit edgier, give you a couple of digs, [laughter] but if you do, yeah. I, I got suffered by the... If you, you know, if you start the podcast like that, it makes the rest of the interview a bit trickier.
Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm down. Go as tricky as you want.
Okay. Um, notorious prick, Jamie Oliver, MBA, everybody. Much, much better [laughter] 'cause half your audience like I told you. Yeah. Um, how are you? How's life?
Good. I, do you know what it was like? Um, I'm 51. I'm a year in.
You're looking great by the way.
I have loved my 50s. I struggled a bit in my 40s if I'm honest.
It was a tough 10 years, right? Uh, in every measurable way like physically, mentally, um, work-wise, um, just, uh, uh, just people dying and just scenarios, just the pressures, every... I weren't, I wasn't too into my 40s. Loved my 30s. 30s were great 'cause in your 20s, you're always trying to prove that you can, you could, and I will. And no one really believes you. So, you're fighting to prove. And then in your 30s, everyone believes you but really shouldn't. [laughter] Yeah. So, the 30s were great, but now I'm sort of... So, I was kind of wondering what the knocking on the door of 50 was going to be like. So, I thought I'd try and sleep a bit more, get a bit fitter, sort my teeth out, and um, uh, yeah, and have a bit more holidays.
Not too bad, but I just thought I'd make an effort. I saw a few old people and, and the teeth were everywhere dancing around in the background. I, come on, man. It's distracting. We go. I keep looking at it and it's like, so I just thought, well, as everything's falling apart, we should try and put together as much as what's possible and, uh, make a bit of effort. I've started, um, I don't think today's a very good... I feel like I let you down today, but I've started laying my clothes out on the floor and trying to be more fashionable.
Uh, you look really good. It's passable today, but like, um, like belt, trousers, socks, shoes, it's, it's not very masculine. But, um...
Have you, have you, um, redone your wardrobe? Like have you had like a wardrobe made?
I haven't got a very... I haven't really... I've got like a kind of makeshift wardrobe, but I've tried to sort of monochrome it and, you know, and I've got to a point now where I've got different types of belts and, um, handkerchiefs.
I don't even wear handkerchiefs. What's going...
How would you, for a suit, like you put a little colorful...
Yeah, I'm sure there's a correct napkin.
Has anybody... napkin is it? Whatever it is.
No, Ben. Ben does that. Ben, some, you sometimes go in just the handkerchief, don't you?
It's like a little thing he does at parties.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's all a little bit, it's a little bit camp. But I'm, I'm down for that. And, um, yeah. I think the, what I'm trying to say is make a bit more effort.
Put myself first a bit more.
I'm not getting the violin out. I'm just saying like, it, like, like self, self-love has been something I've had to sort of, uh, learn a little bit.
Well, the nature of being in the kitchen, the hours are antisocial. You're working your ass off and, and if you want to make it, you know, and by the way, I'm saying this as an outsider, but what I've seen of the, you know, and what's kind of, uh, put across to us is that you're just hammering yourself to make your way in a very, very cutthroat, competitive industry. And the, and, and so you're kind of, um, it feels like you really have to go all out, right? And I guess if you've done that for a really long time, you then got a choice of either I carry on doing this and I really fall apart or I, I make a decision to take a different path. Is that kind of what you've done?
Kind of. Yeah. I mean, I think, I guess yes, it is. But also at the same time, um, I don't really know anyone that's gone my path in my industry. I mean, Gordon's, the shape of his business looks most similar to mine, although he's much more successful. He's smashed America, but like...
But you're enemies, aren't you?
No, no, we're Diddy and...
Shagnasty. No, we're all friends now. We're back together. Okay.
Um, but it was, yeah, you know, it was a colorful 10 years back in [laughter] the day. Um, but, um, no, I, I think it's, but it's like there, there's, I haven't got like a playbook to look at and go, oh, because, um, when the Naked Chef kicked off, uh, for some reason I thought it would be a great idea. It was, but I don't know why I was... I set up my own production company. So I've always made my own stuff. So it's sort of like production, publishing, you know, uh, the restaurants, you know, when I had all of my restaurants, like I think I had 700 chefs at one stage to be responsible for. So, it's like, you know, it's, it's been a mad 25 years, but like...
It's, uh, and it continues to be mad to be fair. Uh, and it's changing a lot right now. But, um, I just think 50, like I want to try and be the best version of myself. Um, have a good conversation with myself. My wife's been amazing. Like, she's, she's like my best teacher at the moment. So, she's, uh, yeah, I feel like I've got to know her more in the last two years in the last... Well, I've been going out with her since I was 18. So, that's interesting. Like, how is that, how is that possible? But like I feel like I'm just finally getting to know her properly, which is quite exciting. Um, so she's a bit like Yoda. She's very wise.
Absolutely tiny. [laughter]
She's so tall. Oh my god. I just come on holiday. My wife's legs are so long.
I can show you pictures. They're like literally miles.
I'd love to see some pictures of your wife's legs. [laughter]
They're so good. Yeah. And she goes, 'Stop talking about my legs.' I said, 'They're just so long.' Yeah, but they're actually longer than my legs. So when she gets on a bike, I have to change the setting. But I'm taller than her, so something's wrong with my body. I'm all out of proportion. Or maybe she's just got long legs.
Yeah. Well, look, congrats on that. Sorry about that. That's quite... No, there's no need to apologize. Congrats, man. That discovery. [laughter] Um, I wish I could say the same, but as Lisa knows, I call her Stumpy. [laughter] Um, now you made something for us.
I've actually got, we've got you a gift. Uh, this is the first one's from my mom because I didn't want to lie. I could have made something for you, but it would have been [__].
So my mom has made you two curries. [gasps] Uh, one mutton and one aubergine. So this is... And I know you've just had a steak.
No, but you can just try... I'd love you to try and slag it off.
No, I actually wondered. Ah, yeah. And this is super healthy, by the way.
So, what do you... So, there's your... There's the M. Is that... Oh, is that the mutton there? Yeah. And there's some rice if you want it. But anyway, smash through that. If we could play some music over there.
This is mutton curry and you've got aubergine there. And there's some rice that you can eat separately. That's how we do it. We eat the curries and then separately eat the rice afterwards like a dessert.
No, [snorts] I don't. I love it. I mean, aubergine is deeply misunderstood in Britain. Like, I mean, most people cook it wrong.
But this is like, it's almost like meat. It's like silky. It's curdy. It's... And then the spices just deep. And I'm presuming from heritage this is Sri Lankan.
Um, the use of spices is delicious.
My mom is going to love this. Yeah. No worries. So for, for your listeners, um, they might not care, but um, mutton is, uh, lamb is one up to one years old.
Mutton is up to two. Uh, sorry, hogget is up to two.
Hogget, I don't ever heard.
So you have lamb is one years old. Hogget is two years old and then mutton is thereafter. So it has, it has to be over two years old, which means like obviously they're more mature.
Yeah. And I could have mutton curry if the, if the sheep had died of natural causes.
I don't know. I sort of think morally. Do you mean if, if I found a sheep? [laughter] I'm not, I'm not causing it any harm. Do you know what I mean? Roadkill.
Road. I'd love a roadkill masala or jalfrezi or something like that.
Dude, like you could be fully meat-eating and ethical. Just do Romesh's Roadkill Cafe.
Yeah. Have you tried Romesh's squirrel and mutton?
Listen, everyone goes mad about Wagyu beef and like, like I wagyu squirrel.
Like, well if you, if you look at the diet of a squirrel. It's like those really expensive like Iberico, um, pigs that just eat walnuts and nuts. Squirrels are like... Have you seen them? They're feisty little [__]. They, they're just...
Nick nuts and they're happy as Larry. I was going to go and pick a load of nuts. They've stolen them all. The only ones they left were rancid. They even know what ones are rancid. They shake it, sniff it, bastards. [laughter]
I'm going to be honest with you. I reckon you've been watching them a while. [laughter]
I want to shoot them and eat them.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. How would you, how do you prepare a squirrel then?
Just like a rabbit. Um, [laughter] and, and you, if your listeners think this is weird, really like something that has like an, an, you know, natural life and diet, like, you know, it's the most nutritious form of meat. Um, and just by luck something happened or they, someone shot them. So then you skin them and you can marinate [clears throat] them. Yeah. And like with, uh, for like, you can like almost cook a squirrel like a spatchcock if you want, but I like to break it down into saddle which is more tender and then the legs, uh, I can kind of do some nice things to make that like pot roast or stew or something like that. And the shoulders I just turn into a lovely, um, like pasta sauce or something like that. But rabbit's great as well.
But, you know, everyone's really happy like getting chickens that have never seen light and sort of never had the litter changed and like 28 days from chick to cull and it's sort of like, you know, I, I find it a bit weird.
This is delicious, by the way.
Well done. Well done, Shanty. Well done. Great work. And listen, Mom, stay off the booze.
All right. Yeah. Um, we've, we've got another present for you. Um, this is not edible. Um, we've got you some toys for your dog.
Oh my god. Conker. Conker.
I love it. With a bit of basil on the top.
Yeah, there you go. There's one more to garnish it.
That's very kind of you. So, what made you think about my dog?
That's a cabbage with a... What's inside it? It looks... Is that... There's a hole.
I don't know what your dog's supposed to do. Sure. That's for Conker. [laughter] It's got... [laughter] Look, that's... You can even clean that.
Romesh. Look, I look... [laughter] Jamie. All I'm going to say is that ain't for Conker, [laughter] but I'll accept that.
All I'm going to say is I've got one. I love it. I thought your dog might like one as well. [laughter] Uh, holy [__]. It does look really sexual that. Anyway, um, does your dog get, does Conker get your leftovers?
Uh, not supposed to, but like, um, he was started off on a certain brand of dog food that was dry and I just like the nutritionist in, the nutritionist in me just can't. Apparently, it's like perfect nutrition, but I just like, he looks at it and I look at it and then we look at each other and it's like, nah, it can't be really. So I think, um, I try and like mix up... Yeah. Like we try and give him more natural foods now, but, um, it's amazing what it's... It's a bit like kind of, uh, nutrition and, and the medical profession like they, they're not connected. So, um, do you know what I mean? Like since when is a dog supposed to be happy with a load of biscuits? Even if, even if it's nutritionally profound, it's like, so I'm not, I'm not convinced. Um, but, uh, but I do like to get... I mean basically Conker is Buddy and Jules's dog and, um, the reason that he's more loyal to me than anyone else is pancetta.
I get 100 grams of pancetta every Saturday off Danny. Yeah.
Right. Carves it. Delicious. All they eat is nuts. We've talked about nuts. Yeah. All the time. Delicious meat. Oh, it's just like heaven. I get 100 grams. 50 for me, 50 for Conker.
No. No. It's just freehand.
And that loyalty. Yeah. If you're after loyalty from a dog, pancetta, right? It's [snorts] just great. And, um, then I do association. So pancetta with... I know. Look at your face. See, like you... That's what Conker does. [laughter] So like I could be anywhere and I go, 'Really?' Yeah. 'Cause he thinks he's getting pan. Now you can, you know, you kind of if you make the noise, you got to deliver.
So, 'cause there's only a couple of times you can do that without...
And then he's like, 'You're taking a piss.' Yeah. Uh, so, um, but he's a great dog. I'm very lucky. But thank you for that. We'll both enjoy those. [laughter]
I'd love to see that on like a YouTube thing or how you really get into that. Obviously, we're in very different fields, but when you start doing comedy, it, it slightly ruins a lot of comedy because you kind of, it's like seeing behind the mechanics of it a little bit and then you, and then you see really great stuff. Does being a top chef ruin eating at restaurants and stuff like that for you?
Not really. I don't think so. Because I think it can, I think like comedy or entertainment, it can express itself in many different ways. And, [clears throat] you know, if you've got Jes and a handful of others that will fill Wembley down to a little club in a pub, like you can't, they're not the same product really. I mean, I know it's comedy, but it's different feelings. If I go into a tatty little place in a cheaper part of a city or town and there's just a piece of talent in the kitchen in front of house and they're just knocking out incredible food and all the values on the plate and it's just like, it's like, I, I, I find it really emotional, really exciting and I get so excited just to see that, you know, being bothered.
Yeah. Caring 20 covers, love. And then of course at the other extreme, you know, you could have somewhere that's 600 covers or 500 covers or 100 covers. So it's like they're all slightly different products, but I think you get...
And, and you also get to, even if I just... we just came via Neal's Yard and, and just had one slice of home-sliced pizza and it's just like, it's just good pizza. Yeah. And it's just like, just things done well, like, and do you know what I mean? So I think like horses for courses and, and like, like a giggle and a laugh, you know, you don't laugh about everything in the same way, is it? Like there's, there's little silent ones and there's growers and there's something that your mom says or...
And I, I always weirdly like going back to the early days of the Naked Chef, I remember sitting next to Julian Clary and just thinking, it must, when you're famous for being funny, like everyone's like, 'Be funny then.' It's like...
It's like a, it's, it's massive pressure.
So much when I'm doing a tour show, crowd [laughter] be funny. But it's, it's, you know, it is, it's hard I think.
But then I guess you have that like if you're making any food for somebody, somebody's expecting it to not...
Yeah, and god, just head off like your audience, you just want them to laugh and I just want them to enjoy the dish and get it for what it is and, um, but I mean like the power of laughter is just...
You know, from, ah, it can fix a lot of things like food, a good, a good laugh and a good plate of food.
A good plate of food is, I think that's why, you know, the show that I came on with you, that's why that show worked because you, what you would say to the guests is you'd go, 'Remember a really good meal and I'm going to try and recreate it for you, something you had, right?' And what would happen is I think loads of, everybody has like a meal that really has stayed with them for the rest of their lives and then as soon as you think of that meal you think of the setting, you think of where your life was at that time. Like it is, those things are hardwired into us. Like we, we have a really special relationship with food, don't we?
Definitely. And, and, and if you look at the neuroscience of food like where, where taste and smell is associated, it, like, it's rubbing up next to memories and that's why food and music and nostalgia can be so, so powerful. Like a smell can take you back and right back, you know, like in that film Ratatouille, like, like back and you're there. And I, it happened to me once and I remember, um, I was, I was in New York and this Egyptian guy gave me a tea and it was hibiscus and it took me right back to probably being two years old. Yeah. On the North Broads having a teated bottle of like, 'cause I wasn't feeling very well and like it's like I just, you was there and like, what, that's weird. Where did that come from? It was like pink just... And I think like, you know, and like Nan's cooking, mom's cooking...
And I think like especially if it's associations of love.
Yeah. You know, um, and I'm sure like...
I mean your mom's a good cook, right? So...
Aubergine curry is supercharged. You like, for me in terms of my memories and nostalgia and everything, incredible. [clears throat]
You mentioned Ratatouille. Can I just ask you one question? Is a scene, how well do you know that film?
So you know it pretty well. Although listen, I've been in stuff I've never watched. No [__] chance. Right. But [laughter] But, but, um, there's a bit where Remy, he's running, the first time he goes in the kitchen and he sees this like, I think it's a soup or something. It's red. He starts [__] around with it. When he gets served, it's white. [__] right?
So what's, so what's the question?
I'm saying is that possible? The volume hadn't increased that much for him to completely change the color of the soup. Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah. You know it's a cartoon though, right? And, and fiction. [laughter]
Valid point. I'm just listening to me. So, what you're saying is continuity.
Yeah. No, but what I'm saying is apparently he changed it, but I didn't see, I didn't see enough addition of ingredients to make such a significant change in the... Do you know what I mean?
That must mean, that must have stopped your enjoyment of it.
I'm amazed that you were still allowing yourself to be attached to the project knowing that that kind of [__] was flying around. I mean, it's an interesting one 'cause like in The Bear that I, I, I know it's genius and I know it's brilliant, but in the first two or three shows I had to stop watching it because they kept jump-cutting it to make it look like they could chop. In [laughter] that time they couldn't. So, 'cause it's my trade. I'm like, none of them can cook, man. It's like, it's like, um, but obviously by the end of the series, they'd all done quite a lot of time in kitchens and they really could.
So, you could, you tell the difference as they sort of got...
Yeah, like totally because they put the time in. But it's like, like I think like some art directors sort of see the bigger picture but obviously people that work as pilots can see what pilots are not doing and, and same for chefs and, and surgeons on hospital programs. Um, but yeah...
Um, do, do they, do they manage to capture like the, um, for you do they manage to capture the powder keg, like the, the pressure of like in a, is that real in The Bear and things that are boiling?
I think some of them, um, yes and I think obviously sometimes things get dramatized but the thing about kitchens is that, um, depending on the nuance of where you are they really can be, um, they're very, uh, how can I say, they're very electric places. Um, they can be wild, they can be the wild west, they can be very fastidious and well-managed, can also be very precise and very quiet. It all depends on the conductor, the head chef, right? And, and their personality. Technologies helped to quieten kitchens down. Um, uh, um, human rights has made them behave a little bit better, you know, like, like things that happened when I...
There's been a, there's, has, there's been a cultural change then in terms...
I think generally, I think like when, when I started in cooking at say 18, like some of the norms socially, like the hours normally were 80 to 100 hours. So like try saying that to, to a young chef now that's happy with 42 hours, you know. So, um, that's like, I mean, so, so from a human rights point of view, um, that's better, but from a working, learning, progression point of view you're basically learning at half speed because you're doing half the hours. So you could look at it good or bad depending on how you want to look at it. Um, but, um, yeah, the things you could get away with, um, sexism, sort of like what, like the whipping and sort of like the stories you hear like they are often true and, and, and your job as a chef is to not work in those places.
Sorry. Is the whipping figurative or is that...
Yeah, it was sort of done for fun partly.
Um, well like does everyone else know about you used to do it on Asian, Asian [laughter] rocket? You, you get your, you get your tea towel, you whip it up so it's sharp. You can even dip it in water so it's even like got more density and then you learn to like, and that would be done potentially for fun.
But or it could be done to sort of like to tell you off. Is it like a hazing thing? Is it like a welcome? Just it was just a like getting wrapped with a spoon or spatula or you know I mean.
Oh yeah, loads. I mean yeah plenty. I used to finish a like when you're young and in the kitchen like I used to cuz I was cooking professionally from 12 you know 10 probably if that's if professional means getting paid then from 10 I was in commercial kitchens and you know in the early days like they kind of there's they have to kind of initiations and stuff like that. So, from being put in chest freezers for sort of 10 15 minutes, I think they forgot that the seals are actually airtight. So, IT'S LIKE I'M SUFFOCATING AND IT'S FREEZING. That's happened quite a few times. But the no, I think it's generally done with not with evil. It's normally done with laughter in their eyes. You could debate whether it's both, but certainly my experiences were normally with lots of laughter, but you'd finish a shift and you'd have I think up to 200 clothes pegs on your back, you know, and you know, this is always just there's like typically chefs are very funny like cuz a lot of their jobs are very repetitive.
Like it looks glamorous but like you know one case of cleaning mushrooms is one thing but 10 is another. So you have to pass the time with some pretty basic talking. You got to make something out of nothing. You're kind of drumming yourself up for a live show every day which is service which is sort of two three hours potentially and that's like a giant game of like Tetris on steroids and then you've got like often like a workforce that wear their heart on their sleeve and they come from all sorts of backgrounds and there's booze and alcohol and all sorts of so it sounds like I'm exaggerating but it's probably like a lot of industries but I've been blessed I've chosen to work with largely very very good people and but it's you knew it was the industry so yeah there's not much would surprise me I've seen quite a lot and but also I think it's an amazing industry and good leaders good head chefs run kindhearted tight ships and good people want to be kept so you tend to not whip them these days but
Have you ever been in a place where you've gone this I'm not doing it?
No because normally some of the behavior that frightens people, it's a bit like some and I'm not saying this is okay, by the way. But a lot of what offends the general public is very normal to me. It's just like rain. Oh, yeah. It's rain, you know? It's like you don't that's just normal because like and I'm sure there's other trades where at certain points certain dynamics happened and that's just part of drumming up for that. So that can offend a lot of people and there's obviously a line where it's too much and it's called bullying. So we don't definitely don't want to be taking any part of that. But building up for service has you know on a busy day short staff someone's called in sick and you've got you know some tricky scenarios in balancing too many people turning up at one time you know that you've got to like charge up for that.
But at the same time yeah I think I've been very very lucky. I've been in some hard kitchens. But it's always been worth it because it's always about doing something special on the plate. So it's always a balance. Like if it's just loads of grief and the product's rubbish, then that ain't worth it. But if the grief is because of perfection and the aspiration for perfection, but at the same time, this conversation can go off because it will go into bullying. And there is a line like anything in life. But I'm not in that world and I haven't been in that world and I've never allowed myself to be in that world. And because there's always a job in the next restaurant cuz everyone's underemployed like you can move.
