My former assistant said, "It's so tough." And I just turned to her. I said, "Shut the [ __ ] up. What are you talking about? It's tough."
Ari Emanuel is the most powerful person in Hollywood and the real-life inspiration behind Entourage's Ari Gold. He started at the bottom in the mail room and fought his way to an entertainment empire.
I'm as competitive as everybody else. I just...
You might be a little bit more competitive, but I just wanted to win.
Somebody's going to push you around and try and impose their will on you and you're not going to fight back? You got the wrong [ __ ] person. That was a crazy stupid shoot. I mean, it was just insane. I was insane.
But underneath that larger-than-life reputation is a dyslexic kid from Chicago who learned to turn every challenge into fuel.
Back in the day, I'd have given my left arm not to be dyslexic. Being dyslexic, you don't think you're dumb. It just you think differently. And I think dyslexia is actually an advantage. This episode is about how to turn your weakness into your advantage and the secrets to power that only a Hollywood insider would know.
Would you rather have a life of meaning or a life of pleasure? And for me, a life of meaning is pleasure.
What's more dangerous in a leader, ego or insecurity? How much of success do you think is talent? What do you still aspire to be or to become?
It's always so crazy to me when I look at the data, but the large majority of people that watch this show aren't subscribed, and it's the only way that we can grow and keep bringing you the content that you want. So, do me the biggest favor. It costs absolutely nothing. It takes no time at all, and it would mean the world to me and the team at Aspire if you would subscribe to our YouTube channel. It means you'll get all of our best content without needing to search. Thanks so much, Ari Emanuel. Welcome to Aspire.
Thank you very much for having me.
I look at you and see your career as such a blueprint for turning what makes you different and things that would normally be considered adversity into what it takes to succeed. A lot of people who will be listening to this podcast will have something that feels like it stands between them and what they intend to be. And so, kind of serious question. So, when you decided to start your business...
Um, and you said, "Okay, this is what I'm going to go for."
Mhm.
And this is what I hopefully I've taught my kids. Hopefully, you're teaching your kids. And I think you teach your kids through osmosis by them witnessing you. You have to ask for the job. You have to ask. You have to have agency for yourself. I advocate for my clients. I'm a fierce, you know, I'm a do-or-die guy. You know, I'm a ride-or-die guy with people. But then you have to be a ride-or-die guy for what you want and you have to say what you want or you're definitely not going to get what you want.
And if you're not willing to do that, how the [ __ ] are you going to ever get the... And for some reason I think it's hard for people to announce verbally, say it, like, I want this money, I want that. I want to... this is what I want to be.
You're preaching to the converted. I'm the start-with-yourself girl. The name of my book was Start with Yourself because it's the only way that I ever knew how, because nobody is ever going to come and pluck you from obscurity and say, what are all the things that you need and want and let me see how I can do that for you. But it does feel that throughout your book you do have this kind of... you know, which for an agent, dyslexia is debilitating. So much of what I saw coming up in my career was agents reading and reading non-stop. And I just wonder...
That was one of the reasons I picked television. And television, a half hour was like 39 pages and an hour was like 60, whatever. A lot easier than a movie script, which I just used to sweat because you have to do coverage when you're in the mail room and when you're on a desk. I used to sweat when they gave me, you know, those feature scripts. And when they gave you television, okay, I can get through that. I can get through five, six, seven, you know, whatever.
That's why I chose fashion because there was just nothing to read at all. These will make your butt look good. Done. Looking back now, how much of your success do you attribute to having something that you had to fight against?
It drove me. You know, I hate when people say I was very comp... I'm as competitive as everybody else, because... but I just wanted to win. And for me that was like being successful. That definition was being the best and having my own business. I looked around and I said to myself when I was at ICM and read the book by George Gilder, Life After Television, everybody said the television business is dead and this and I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. So, let's go for it. And when I was a kid, you know, you can't read and my mother made sure that I could read. Um, and I'm okay with because of maybe that and because of the way my parents brought me up. I'm okay with awkward situations. I don't need people to agree with me. In our family, you came to dinner, you fought about politics, you gave your opinion. And all those things enabled me to stand up for myself. And I take my hat off to my mom and dad for doing that with the three of us. I think all three boys.
You turned out all right.
And so I'm okay in the uncomfortable.
One, it was not comfortable, um, not being able to read, um, like everybody else. And two, my parents taught me that it's okay to fight and argue and discuss things. Some people get a little offended because I do it probably a little louder than most people in this town that you're supposed to just get along. It's not like I'm not getting along, but I'm not just going to agree just to agree, not to have a conversation.
You say openly that rage and chaos were instruments of your success. So, when did they actually help you and when did they cost you something?
People think that there wasn't strategy behind it, um, and that it was just shooting from the hip. And sometimes it was just shooting from the hip, but... and not caring what the outcome is, because I'll live with it. One is after you do, but two, after I got hit by the car and I say life's not a dress rehearsal. It's not. So what do you... like, somebody's going to push you around and try and impose their will on you and you're not going to fight back? You got the wrong [ __ ] person. That's not who I am. And that goes into being an advocate for yourself and being agency for yourself. And I'm doing that for other people and I'll do it for myself if somebody's trying to bully us or take advantage of the company or me or my client. That's just not how I roll.
You were bullied and you called yourself the dumb one. So is there any part of you that feels that you need to prove that label wrong?
Well, there was the smart one, which was Zeke. There was the artist, which was Rahm. And sometimes I refer to him as the other one, the dumb one. In our house, grades were up. You didn't get really good grades, you were grounded. That creates anxiety at one point, but also being pissed off because, you know, being dyslexic, you don't think you're dumb. It just you think differently. And I think back in the day, I'd have given my left arm not to be dyslexic. But it does, as Alex Karp says, enables you to think freely in a different way and think about things and organize people and do things differently. And respecting yourself because you're the only one in that situation that actually can. And as you get older, you realize dyslexia is actually an advantage. And one of the reasons I wrote the book, I wanted parents to realize that if things are... you don't cuddle your kid. Yeah. It's very difficult when they're dyslexic and to teach them to read or send them to Lindamood-Bell that I did with my kids. I did the same.
And it's very difficult for them.
It's, you know, it's heartbreaking.
It's hard for us. That bloody Lindamood-Bell nearly killed me. Let myself.
Yeah. Exactly. But if you let him go through it, he or she, she gets emotional endurance and she can advocate for herself and she can handle tough stuff. Yes, there's other psychological things, but let them deal with it when they get older and you'll be there for them and they know that there's love and kindness behind it from you. They come out on the other side of it and it's just incredible because you just have this EQ, this advocacy, this ability to withstand stuff. It's a great... it's great now.
Well, I'm glad that you frame it in that way because there is a part in the book where you almost feel a sense of guilt for passing it on to your kids, which I felt. And well, of course you would, but to your point, there's so much that if handled and treated properly that your kid gets out of having something like that that they have to conquer at a young age that it actually ends up being a superpower, as you say, in so many ways. I do want to just talk about the bullying thing for a second because I do think it's important and so many people are bullied in school. Has any of that stayed within you, even as successful as you are today, is there any part of you that still feels like you've got something to prove?
Well, if I think somebody is trying to do something that for some reason I think they're questioning my intelligence, they're trying to pass one over me or questioning whether I'm seeing the world the way I'm seeing the world. For me, that's like calling me stupid.
Right. And that dog doesn't hunt for me. And that's where a lot of the rage came in now. And I don't know when this exactly happened. Doing a lot of work. And I said to myself, and I came actually into a meeting at the company on a Monday morning meeting after going away to India, and I said to myself, you know, we've... I've helped grow this company through rage and through aggression. It's not going to take us... it's going to get us so far and I've got to change. And admitting that is the only way and understanding that, and it took a long time after admitting it to get there.
And I understand that because I think that for so many people you can use that idea of this is just how I am to avoid changing. Which part of yourself have you genuinely had to change to become a better leader?
Well, it used to be at times I would shoot and then aim, right? There's an incident with Irving, who's now a friend of mine. That was a crazy stupid shoot, aim. I mean, it was just insane. I was insane. And Dr. Karm in the book, my shrink at the time, like screamed at me and I realized there was moments like, you can't do this if you want to be a leader and succeed. It's embarrassing for myself, god forbid, for my kids, for the company. And once you hit a couple of those and you get punched in the face and you're actually self-reflective, you start to change if you really want to get to the next level. A lot of people like say they want to but don't.
Dr. Karm, you refer to throughout the book. You've done a lot of therapy. You've done a lot of work on yourself, but like what does it actually look like to reverse that type of behavior? So, it was... when it's got you so far.
I wasn't nervous that if I change it was going to all fall apart. Um, and then I also realized through Dr. Karm that I wasn't stupid even though I was the third one, the dumb one or whatever. There was a moment in my life where we've taken over William Morris. My parents come out to visit. My dad's asking me questions about what's going on in business. He didn't really understand it anyway. And I give him the whole thing. And classic parents, my parents, and they said, "Well, who does all that?" And I just turned to him and I'm like, well, it's definitely not my brother Zeke and it's definitely not Rahm, right? And it was a classic moment. And so Dr. Karm says to me at one point, you know, back in the 50s, people who were successful in business were considered smart. And that like was an aha moment like, yeah, I mean, I'm not stupid and it's kind of happening and people are trusting me to invest in me. Um, and then truly I did some psychedelics that also realized, you know...
MDMA. I've done ayahuasca. And that also kind of like... it kind of says to you the following: life is not... you know, we're a pimple on the ass of an ant and it's a big place and you're just... and it got rid of the ego which Dr. Karm talked about a little bit and I don't believe in legacy, any of those things that for whatever reason I had in the back of my head and it was operating based on. And so yeah, that was a... I've now been married four years, dated this woman before that, my wife for I think four years before that, and she's helped also that this, that my relationship with her. It's been incredible. And so, we've been on this great journey together.
How amazing. It was funny actually, you just talking about your therapist. I think he called you the most simple and the most complicated client he'd ever had, which I thought, yeah, that sounds about right. I want to kind of take it back to the beginning of your career because it's so important for people to understand this idea of making yourself useful before you have any power. And you came up like through the mail rooms at CAA. I wonder what that taught you about how power actually works.
I started in the mail room at CAA here and Mike Ovitz was God. I mean, he was God. I mean, he was incredible. First of all, what he created was... I mean, he's on Mount Rushmore. Unprecedented. I mean, unbelievable. Incredible. His relationship with Ron Meyer and Bill Haber also incredible. And they built this incredible business. And he had an idea about where the business was going. He made sure everybody stepped in line. And then I left there because I wanted to go to a startup, to this company, InterTalent, with Bill Block. And I saw there... and you only get this when you experience it. You know, some dysfunction. People were saying we're not going to sign television actors. And it was, you know, like the partners didn't play well together. That company sold itself and split up. And then you go to ICM, which the logo is I Cover Myself. That's what ICM, unlike what Mike created where it was perceived and also at the early days, camaraderie. You know, and Mike and Ronnie created that environment. And so then I go to ICM, I'm like, I don't want to do that. And then the moment hits. So you've gotten tastes of how good, bad, not, you know, David Greenblatt, Rick Rosen and Tom Strickler and I look at each other like we don't want to do this and I get hit by the car. And you know, you wiggle your fingers, you wiggle your toes. I'm sitting in the middle of Wilshire and I realize even though I was young, you know, I thought I was on top of the world, invincible, and you have infinite time. It's not a dress rehearsal. Yeah. And so now's the time. It's 18 months to do the rehab, surgery, rehab plan. And then we go on my birthday, March 29th, 1995. And it was... we just incorporated because we'd all been together a lot, our principles, and we just started working on them. And we screwed up a ton, but nobody noticed.
Right. And the greatest thing happened. ICM, when we left, made a big deal of it. We were, as my father, we were four schmucks, right? And they're like, it was New York Times. It was like massive. We were nothing. Zero. We had no cl... I mean, nothing.
You say that, but it was such a move. It was such a move in a town where it's like, you don't operate outside the big four or five. It's like it was just a power move. And by virtue, it was like, well, they really must know something that we don't if they're just deciding to do that.
I promise you we didn't. That's a shame. But the great thing is they treated us as if it was a coup d'état and that then on in and of itself just started the ball rolling. And my father freaked out when it happened. What did you do? Because they were offering me a lot of money to stay and take the paper and take the contract. And I said, "Dad, I think the environment's changing. I'm going to go do this." And we just worked like dogs. We had nothing to sell. We didn't have a script. We didn't have a... We were just signing clients. And the first script Tom Strickler read over the weekend was Cable Guy.
First started out with Wilson Gray and Chris Farley at Paramount and John Dolan had a problem with it. We couldn't do it. Then the project moved to Sony and they put Jim Carrey in and he was coming off a big hit at New Line. He was coming off The Mask. And that was the first $20 million actor. All right. And it just started and the only thing that was unbelievable there. Unbelievable. So we were commissioning because we gave him the script. Brad Gray has produced... I know he has passed away. So... and since you're the baby in the business and people beat up on you, he [ __ ] us out of $37,500. It took us months and months to get the money. Only paid us half. It was just a great little lesson about one, how to treat people that are starting out, and two, okay, this is the way the game's going to be played. And if somebody's going to bully you, okay, okay, I don't know when I'm going to get you. I don't know when. But yeah, you got them.
You do seem to come back around. It seems to be a habit.
Yeah. So, my debut book, Start with Yourself, is available now. You may have seen the headlines or the clips on social media, but this book is exactly what I intended it to be. It's a conversation that will make you think and a blueprint for anyone pursuing success without the toxic positivity. Now, everywhere I go, people ask me how I got to where I am. But what they're really asking is how they can get there, too. Start with Yourself is a New York Times bestseller. It's my answer, and I think it will be yours, too. The thing about healthy habits is they only work if you can actually repeat them. Nutrition is a perfect example. If the better-for-you choice always feels like the thing you're forcing yourself to eat, eventually you're going to stop choosing it. That's why I like what Stars and Honey is doing. They looked at the protein bar aisle and saw the same compromise most of us have felt for years. Either the macros are good and the flavor is disappointing, or it tastes good, but the ingredients are not what you actually want. Stars and Honey was created to remove that trade-off. Their bars have 15 grams of protein and only four grams of sugar. But they're inspired by flavors you actually crave. Ice lemon cookie, mint chocolate chip, red velvet, peanut butter mousse. It's a simple standard. Would you still want to eat it if it weren't a protein bar? That is what makes the habit easier to keep. It supports your goals, but it still feels like something you look forward to, not something you tolerate. Stars and Honey protein bars are now available at starsandhoney.com or at Target stores nationwide. Order online now or pick up a box during your next Target shopping trip. Time is one of those things every founder gets very serious about protecting. You learn what can be automated, what can be delegated, and where your attention actually needs to grow. Hiring is a perfect example. The work is important, but the process can take over fast. You're looking for someone who has the right experience, understands the role, and actually wants the job you're hiring for. We all have our own time-saving hacks for everyday life. If you're a business owner, you can save time hiring with ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested, qualified candidates first, so that you save time by meeting the right people faster. And right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/aspire. From there, ZipRecruiter helps you move more quickly through the hiring process. Their matching technology helps find qualified candidates quickly, and candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job, which gives you a clearer read before you spend time in the interview process. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/aspire. That's ziprecruiter.com/aspire. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. I'm really interested in this idea of power and also of potential. What do you think that you did early in your career that made powerful people notice you?
I just worked really hard and I wasn't scared if somebody wasn't calling me not to continue to call them. You know, I had this confluence of events. I had the show. So, we're working hard and we're growing, which is nuts. I mean, can you even believe that when you're growing the business and we get the basketball tickets on the floor? It's like the greatest billboard on Sunset Boulevard. The Lakers are doing what they're doing and just things are just lining up. Luck, opportunity. We're there for it.
Which just to contextualize because people haven't been able to read the book yet. You getting Lakers tickets was just a power move. You couldn't... we could... you could afford it. You could... you didn't have the half a million in your brand new company to pay. Also remember courtside seat.
Phil Jackson shows up, Shaq shows up, they go on the run, we're the four right next to the bench. It was insane.
Yeah. And then the next iteration is Mark Wahlberg, the show, and my brother, he's in Congress very well and then he becomes the chief of staff. Pretty major for President Obama. I mean, it just... everything just fell into place. Just, you know, and we were doing well. Yeah. Signing clients, growing, working really hard, being opportunistic, and yeah, [ __ ] happened.
It just worked out. So then what do you expect? Because I'm interested in this. How do people show their potential? Because you just say, "I just worked really hard and I made calls."
Here's what I did. First of all, you have to have good clients. You have to have good taste and have to have good clients. And the people at the firm did. We had good clients that people wanted to be in business with. So you just... we just kept on winning that way. And people that were of our generation, CAA was of the guys were the guys and that was their generation. You weren't getting a place at UTA or ICM or William Morris at the time. So we were the last resort and we were like, this is going to be a big partnership. So people started coming and so we just kept on growing because we were that place where people could come to. Yeah. And it was perceived to be a place where it was collegial. It was people fighting for each other. It was people having each other's backs.
Because you created that culture.
Yeah, we created that's the culture because of the experience beforehand seeing what ICM, seeing what you did. That just started building on itself. And for me personally, I read a ton of articles, people I wanted to meet, just started calling them, getting meetings with them, talking to them, figuring out their business and figuring out how the jigsaw puzzle fit in. It got easier when Entourage got on the air that people took the calls and sometimes it was Entourage leading and sometimes it was me leading.
That actually surprised me. I didn't realize that that was so additive to you. I didn't think you were... no, no doubt, like you were hiding from it and cringing through to the last episode. But it was interesting to me that that... because I felt the cult of Ari was already such a thing by the time the show rolled out.
Mark says to me when it starts and I'm like, this is going to be [ __ ] horrible. And he, to his credit, him and Steve Levinson say to me, "This is going to be the best thing that ever happened."
Yeah. You know, I've just started the show now. You're down with the kids basically because they're all starting it now.
When it came out, it came out on Sunday nights. I'm married to my first wife. I didn't want her to see Mrs. Ari.
You hadn't really told her.
It just gave me such anxiety going into Monday. So, I said, "Fuck this. I'm not watching the show." And I've now... I'm all the way up to the boss mitzvah.
Oh, you are second season. Oh, that's good. So good. How much of it was true? I mean, I'm sure there were things that were fabricated, but somebody once said to me, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was Duncan Heath. He said it's a light version of reality, baby.
Well, there were some things like, you know, there I think it's Sundance and Aquaman's happening. Harvey's there and he doesn't have Aquaman because of situations because, you know, Jim's been put on the movie and you're sitting there like I have been in situations that we thought we had the offer, the offer had come and you're playing.
It was mirroring to some degree. Yeah.
I understand that. But ultimately, it was really, really good. It's very clear that you've been like a rule breaker. I'm interested in how you distinguish being somebody who's a rule breaker with this rage from just being someone who's really difficult because clearly your reputation is really difficult.
It's a nightmare. Um, no, but it's like you have such a good reputation and everybody at the end of the day still wanted to work with you. I don't think a client or an associate, a family member ever had a question if we were going up the hill. Either I was leading or I was on the side. If there was a battle to happen and somebody was trying to screw us over, I don't mind being the first person in the heat. When you have leaders that would do that, you create an environment that people will be very loyal.
How instrumental do you think that reputation has been in the success that you've had and the deals that you've been able to do?
As you know in business and any good businessman knows, most good deals happen right in the...
Middle and whether it's a deal or you're trying to navigate somebody who's creative with his vision and a person financing it or marketing or doing, you're trying to just get them to see each other's point of view. The definition of me being a diplomat would be shocking for your audience to hear, but that's the job. That's the job.
And that's the job. Whether you're an agent or whether you're owning TKO and navigating that or whether you're talking to investors, that's just the job. Trying to be, as funny as is me saying this, trying to be an ambassador and an advocate for yourself and/or for your clients.
No, I feel like that's very clear that there was a level of consistency and reputation that you displayed over and over and over again which made you a really reliable source. Even if you were just reliably rageful, [laughter] people understood what they would get.
If I have an idea or a vision or a requirement or something for a client, [snorts] I'm relentless.
Yeah. Well, they know that the course. I mean there's a reason this book's called Roll the Course. You are relentless. You still make that many calls?
Yeah. There was a situation with a client. A show was getting moved early in our career. It was on King of the Hill and Greg Daniels, incredible client, The Office, etc. And I get back in the office at the weekend. I have our research people do all the work around the show. And we come up with this strategy and instead of moving behind The Simpsons, we have to move it not on I think it was Wednesday night, not to 7:00 after football. And I remember, and he's a dear friend, I destroyed Peter Turnid's phone sheet to get that meeting, to make the presentation, to get that time slot because they were advocating a different time slot. It was horrible what I did. I mean, I just I did not stop calling. I did not. That that was on the border of stalking clear.
And um yeah, that's what you have to do.
Do you think you still have to do that? Like that you do.
[__] yeah. So then what do you see? But I do it differently now. I definitely do it differently.
Well, of course you do it differently now, but what about people coming up? Like what do you say to people that are sitting there and then I I want to be as successful as Ari Emanuel?
Every Christmas I take all my assistants, former assistants that are now agents to lunch and celebrate and I give them I've given them watches that they've made it and they're really successful. They're really great at what they do. And we talk about horror stories and one of my former assistants and now an agent said, 'It's so tough.' And I just turned to her, I said, 'Shut the [__] up. What are you talking about? It's tough.' And Bill Haber said this to me, he goes, 'Just keep on turning over the rocks until you find what you need.' The job is to make the calls, not wallow in, 'Oh, it's so hard.' And just do the job. Your job is to be business creative. Find the answer to get if you believe in this client, you believe in that project, and you believe in that situation. Get to a yes. That's the job. And don't worry about all the other things, how hard it is, people are returning. Shut up. Do the job. Do a job until you can't do it anymore until you get that. Yes.
But Ari, how much of that has changed? Because are you still find are you still finding those people?
Yes. I have signed a new client. I believe in an idea for this client.
That's what you're doing.
I'm pounding away on on projects this big. That's a job and I still do it today. Pick up the phone and don't stop. As much as it might be irritating,
You have developed a very unique way of working. Like as you go through this book, you realize that there is a bunch of routines that you are constantly in learning mode. You are always reading. You are meeting everybody. You take meetings with people that you find inspiring. You have all of these mentors around you, but you also work like an absolute dog. Like you work from morning to night. I cannot still work out when you sleep, how many hours you sleep. It does not feel like a lot. I feel like you're a four or five hours sleeper.
Do you get longer now?
I go um 10 to about 3:30.
Okay, that's a whole five.
