Kathy Hughes didn't start out with a media empire. She started with a radio station she was trying to keep alive. And at one point, she was sleeping on the floor of that station because she was that committed to making it work. Today, people see Radio One, Urban One, the success, the legacy. But they don't always see what had to happen before any of that existed. That's what this story is really about. Not just success, cultivation. What happens when you keep building something long before anybody else can see what it's going to become? This is the power of cultivation series on 30 plus years in today's legend celebrating 46 years in business, Kathy Hughes. I'm Kevin Ross. This is one of our historic podcasts with Kathy Hughes from around 2015 and the relevance of what she says still rings true today. Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to our channel. 30 plus years in industry views from industry people.
Okay. How you been?
Good. Everything's great. Absolutely no complaints. What about yourself?
Okay. Good. My grandmother used to say, "If you don't complain for yourself, no one's going to do it for you." That's for sure.
Yeah. And actually, we don't need to. So, because everybody else has their own issues.
Right. So, I wanted to first start off by saying congratulations on your phenomenal success and I still am a work in progress. It's not successful yet.
Okay. Well, you know, we're getting there. We have to enjoy the fruits of our labor even if they're not, you know, we're not finished working yet. So,
that's a good point. I like that. You're absolutely correct.
Right. Take the flowers while we live. So,
you are phenomenally successful by, you know, a lot of standards, but of course, you know, as long as you're a work in progress, then there's more to come.
That's a good thing. Now, the first thing I wanted to ask you was, your mom was a jazz musician and your father, I didn't get a lot of details on him as far as what he...
My father is the first black CPA to graduate from Creighton University.
And he owned Woods Accounting Service.
Okay. He worked for himself.
Okay. So, you did have an entrepreneur in the family.
Oh. I'm a generational entrepreneur. My grandfather started Pineywoods Country Life School, which is 108 years old, still in operation. His grandfather started the first institution of higher learning in the state of Michigan. Oh, what was his name? Oh, it just escaped me. But yeah, Foster was his name. I come from a long line of entrepreneurs.
Okay. Now, did they ever sit you down and teach you things or were you watching or how did you...
Yeah, my first job I was typing a hundred words a minute when I was 10 years old because I worked in the office at my grandfather's school. My daddy couldn't afford a staff when he opened his accounting service. So, I used to do tax returns. The short form back then was a card. You could file your taxes if you made under a certain amount with a card. And so I learned how to fill out the card. So all of the folks who came in for the $20 special got me even though I was only probably at that time about 14, 15 years old.
And so yeah. No, I grew up in business.
Good. Good. So many years ago, I remember you were trying to tell people at Jack the Rapper where the industry was going and you were pushing entrepreneurship, but you seemed just a slight bit, I don't want to say disappointed, but it didn't seem like your message was getting across. Do you recall that?
Very well. I was trying to talk to them about duopoly and the fact that the FCC was going to deregulate, which was going to adversely affect smaller owners because the big owners, you know, were going to be able to, you know, double and triple up and it kind of went over, you know, like a lead balloon. They didn't believe me. It was like, you know, nothing they were interested in. And you know, that was during the heyday of black executives in the music industry and black owned and we were at, you know, our peak not realizing it of black ownership of broadcasting facilities.
Just a process of thinking it's going to last forever.
Absolutely. And was going to increase. And I was trying to tell them that we were getting ready to hit a major obstacle in the middle of the road. Okay. A big pothole. And that if we weren't careful, you know, many of us would fall into it. And as you see now, there are very few owners left. And I can only name maybe two or three black executives in the entire music industry, right?
How important do you think entrepreneurship is for African-Americans overall?
I think that it's critical particularly in the communications industry because he who controls the microphone and the camera controls the story. It's very... and I mean that's right, that's evidenced by, you know, what you see on television, what you hear on the radio, what you, you know, see in the movies. When you have black ownership, you have an entirely different set of productions in the genre of movies like Selma, like, you know, Birth of a Nation, like, you know, Fruitvale. When you don't, then you get comedy and murder, right? And, you know, right, we're not the ones, you know, greenlighting the productions.
Right, which are still a problem now. Have you ever supported... Yeah, exactly. Have you ever supported a black... That's okay. I'm sorry. Have you ever supported a black business like a restaurant and say the service is poor? What are you most likely to do? Are you most likely to walk away or are you most likely...
Heavens, no. Heavens, no. No black owned. I'm going to tell them. I'm going to befriend the owner and I'm going to tell them and I would hope that they do the same with me. I have always used my audiences, be they television or radio or internet, as my ongoing focus group. I, you know, make it clear to all of those whom we serve, clients included, if you are not satisfied with our service, please bring it to the top immediately. Let me know, okay? Because I want to correct it. Because, you know, I grew up being taught that, you know, the consumer is always correct, be it my listener or viewer or, you know, sponsor. So no, if I have bad service in a black owned business, I try to address it with the owner and hope that they, if I don't know them, receive it in the spirit in which it's offered. Other businesses, to be very honest with you, I just don't return.
Okay. And what is one thing that remains constant throughout your career in radio with listeners? What is the one thing that absolutely never changes with black listeners?
Their trust, okay, in the message that they're receiving through black owned media, whether it's print or electronic. I mean, there are, I have, you know, people in my listening audience that I talk to that are still like very upset that Ebony was sold because they don't know if they can trust the new people. When Viacom bought BET, their ratings have not recovered yet. Big change. Big change. Now their programming changed. A lot of different things changed. But most importantly, what changed was the trust factor.
Right. Well, let me ask you a question.
They trust Bob Johnson. You know, they trust Bob Johnson because he was a black man, right? They don't know who, you know, the Frenchman is who runs Viacom.
Right. Exactly. Let me ask you a question. As far as like Ebony is concerned, some people have said that Ebony's issue was that they didn't progress fast enough. They weren't into digital. They weren't into social media. They kind of took their time and waited for the old platform to return and that's generally what happened as far as their failure. Do you think that the onus is on the black owner to make sure that they're ahead of the eight ball? How can I ask this question?
Absolutely. It's their obligation, but I think in Ebony you have a unique situation. I think John H. Johnson stayed in charge too long. I think if he had turned over... Linda Johnson Rice is a brilliant sister, well-connected, well-educated, well-traveled, but he stayed in charge all the way to the end of his life. He stayed in charge too long before he turned it over to her. And I think by the time he turned it over to her, that was too far down a road of no return. Right. I think that if he had, you know, it's very difficult because we're not a community of generational businesses. It's very difficult oftentimes for the parent generation to know when to step aside. You know, one of the lectures that I give when I speak to entrepreneurs deals with the transference of assets. Most of us leave the house to our children when we die, right? Well, by the time we die, the kids don't want the house. No. All right. Now, if you transferred the asset when the kids were in their, let's say, 30s, okay? Or into their 40s, they could take that asset and open a business. They could take that asset. They could parlay the benefits of those assets. Now, most of us feel, well, you know, it's our security. Exactly. So, you should know your child well enough to know if they're going to leave you high and dry. Now, if you got a trifling crack addict son or daughter, yeah, don't give them the house. But if you got a son or daughter trying to get their business up and going, then you should transfer that house to them way before you die so that they can really maximize the benefit of that house, right? And you know, but most of us will leave the house when we die, right? Well, that's a little late. That's a little late to leave. Okay. Hopefully by the time you die, your child got their own house and possibly their second or third house that they've bought. Okay. So, it's of no value to them. And I think that's really the analogy I use when I talk about the transference of power and the asset of business. Okay? Even if it's a shoe shine, you know, if you've got a son or a daughter who's grown up in that shoe shine business, then you need to be getting them involved early enough for them to maximize the benefit of that asset and not wait until you die or till you're getting ready to die to turn it over to them because nine out of ten times that's too late.
Or work yourself to death in the process even if you're not, you know...
Exactly. There you go. You said it correctly. Absolutely. But the transference of assets is something that we really have not been too schooled on. And it's not just a black problem. That's what happened in a lot of Jewish businesses. When I was a kid growing up, practically every business in the ghetto was owned by a Jewish family. And oftentimes the mama and the daddy would be in there. And when their children got grown and went to professional schools and became doctors and lawyers and rabbis, they didn't want those businesses.
And so, right. So, the transference of assets is not just a problem for us, it's a cultural problem for other ethnic groups also.
And then one thing we may not realize is that when kids watch their parents and they're working like that, that's not attractive. And when they're doing it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. My question is, how do... and I don't know if you've been through this, I'm sure maybe early on when you find yourself as an entrepreneur working too hard and it basically becomes your whole, it consumes you. Have you ever been in that position?
No. Because if you're going to be a successful entrepreneur, you're going to have to work hard. And sometimes it takes... it's not by coincidence you and I are having this conversation that I'm in an industry that's 24/7. So I don't have a choice. Right. Okay. I've never owned a business that wasn't 24/7. Right. And so even though I'm not in here seven days a week, I'm still on call when I'm not in here. Okay? Because if the transmitter goes down, I got to go to the station. If a jock gets, you know, sick. I mean, Wendy Williams talks about in her book how, you know, she passed out while she was on the air for me. Well, guess who it was who discovered her when, you know, the record kept skipping and I realized that, you know, she was in trouble. It was me who went to the station. And so I'm in an industry that's 24/7. So I don't know what it is to be over or totally consumed by your business because that's the nature of the business I'm in. Okay. And yeah, you know, anything you do, I think takes balance, but you know, a child watching their parents conscientiously work their business may not want to take that grocery store, may not even want to take the radio station, but at least you have set the example for them that this was important to me and I was willing to give it my all. So regardless of what they go into, they can become a lawyer or a doctor or whatever. They have the example set for them that you got to give it your all, whatever it is to be successful.
Yeah. You hope they've learned the lesson. Now, I want to ask you about your situation early on where you slept on the bathroom floor of the station.
What? You beat out. I'm sorry.
Where you slept on the floor of the bathroom station.
Uh-huh. I know. No, not the bathroom.
I slept on the floor of the radio station. Yeah. I thought I did your question. No, I never slept in the bathroom. That was Chris Gardner. That was not me.
I washed up in my public bathroom. Okay. I slept in a sleeping bag in my radio station office. Okay.
Okay. So, you slept in the bathroom. You slept on the floor of the bathroom station and Alfred was there. You've been kicked out of your mother's house. You...
No, no, no. Alfred was in college.
Oh, really? Was not there?
Yeah. No, Alfred was not there. I lived in the radio station alone. Alfred was at UCLA.
You know what? Then that's the research I need. I'm glad you corrected that because everything I've read has said that he was a baby with you when that happened.
Alfred was right. No. Alfred had left for college.
Did he know that you were sleeping, that that was happening?
Yeah, he came home to see his mama. I was living in the radio station. But my radio station where I was living, okay, was the FM site. When I bought W, the owner refused to sell me AM and FM. He sold the FM to another company and it became WMCQ, a country station. Well, so I had the whole side of 1680 Wisconsin. The whole FM side was empty. That's where I lived. I converted it into an apartment. I had to, okay, I had to put in a bathroom. I had to put in a... it took me 18 months because I didn't have much money because I was trying to keep my station alive during that time. I slept on the floor. But I converted about easily 2500 square ft into an apartment.
Oh, okay. Well, then was it like a functioning apartment? I mean like a living apartment or was it just something that you used to...
No, it was a living apartment. For those 18 months, I cooked on a hot plate and I slept in a sleeping bag and as I got my money together, the first thing I put in was a bathroom because it was quite embarrassing washing up that length of time in the public bathroom and then at night I would go to a friend of mine's house and take a shower. Okay. I'd have to leave to shower. And I got a prefab bathroom. I was so excited. I got a prefab bathroom. They elevated the floor and literally ran the plumbing off of the water fountain that was in the hallway of the radio station because we had water. Exactly. Then they put in this little water heater. It was so cute that you could almost sit on top of it. I can't remember. It held maybe like only 50 gallons of water, but I had hot water. And then after the prefab bathroom, they did me a little kitchenette, so I went from a hot plate to a two-burner stove and one of those apartment-size refrigerators. Wow. And then yeah, I converted office space into actual living space. But that's not so unique, Kevin. Are you aware that there are over 100 Congress people who live in their offices because they can't afford the housing in DC?
They sleep in their offices? I was not aware of that. I would think that they probably work somewhere.
I just became aware of that about 6 months ago. There are over 100 members of Congress who actually live in their offices.
I understand that several Congress people have tried to, you know, get some policy passed where they would have to pay rent because, you know, all their bathrooms have showers.
Okay. And so all they have to do is get a pull-out couch and they actually live in their offices and find a way to eat.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. They eat out, right?
I'm sure they have refrigerators and microwaves in their offices, you know. And we have to create a livable situation. So yeah, so that's how I was living. Basically, but yeah, no, I never slept in the bathroom. My gardener did.
Okay. Well, let me ask you this. So out of the... I don't know if you have any pictures of that situation if you were struggling so hard that you couldn't even take pictures of that, but how do you...
No, I don't have any pictures.
How did you maintain your ability to keep going at that point? Did you feel like this may be...
It was exhilarating for me because I'm in a 24-hour business and so now I'm living in that 24-hour business. So, I didn't have to get in my car and drive to a station. I didn't have to go anywhere to go in my office. It sounds a lot more terrible than it actually was. It was really, really, really great to be able to be there and to nurture and develop my business in its early stages. Right.
So what was really a hardship, what was lemon turned out to be lemonade.
Right. Okay. All right. Because I was there and it was in Georgetown and so I was a block and a half away from a Safeway and I was a block and a half from a whole street full of restaurants. And since I was living there for like 18 months, everybody in the restaurant knew me. So, you know, it was like I could call ahead, get my meal, run down, pick it up, bring it back, warm it on the hot plate or, you know, back then microwaves weren't the big thing because, you know, we're talking about 35 years ago. Okay. So,
what I mean, the dedication, I mean, and I get that as an entrepreneur. It's like if you're dedicated to something, then it never seems like work. It's almost like a young artist with his canvas. It's, you know, no matter what you have to do to get to where you want to go.
Yeah. Exactly. You're in the same position, right?
Exactly. I totally understand that. So, you know, you did mention that you...
I mean, I'm sorry. You know, the days that, you know, it's like, really bad and really challenging, it's well with me, but that's only probably 10, 15% of the time. The other 80, 85% of the time you're so happy to be working for yourself, right? Being able just, okay, stop and go do something. If you have children, go to school, see the play, come back because you know,
no lines, no traffic, no...
Bill, okay, no cleaning bills, no makeup. I can't tell you how many years I did my morning show in my pajamas, right? Okay. They were cute pajamas, but I didn't have to dress. I brushed my teeth, washed my face, combed my hair, and went on the air.
Yeah, I totally understand that. Getting up and not having to get dressed and just working at your computer and not... Yeah. Being on your own schedule. People will never understand how amazing that is. It's a lot of work.
Absolutely. A lot of work. And you never stop working. Like you said earlier, it's like, you know, you can be on call at any time when anything happens. But the reward is so great that, you know, it's unfortunate that a lot of people will never know about that.
Now, early in your career, you were promoted as the general sales manager at WHUR. Is that correct?
Okay. How did you manage...
I was actually hired as the general sales manager. I was promoted to vice president and general manager, but I was the general sales manager. That was my first job.
At WHUR, they brought me in to set up their sales division.
How did they even have sales packages?
Okay. The first thing I did was develop a sales philosophy. Okay. I developed a sales package. I developed a sales philosophy. I hired a team of sales people. They had none of that. Okay. They were just kind of, you know, taking business from churches and stuff like that. They came. Exactly. They didn't have a strategy. They didn't have a campaign. They weren't going after business. Okay. So with, you know, it was not as difficult as it would appear going from 250,000 to 3 million in a year when you got a sales package, you got four or five people on the street, you've got a campaign, you've got a strategy, you've got, you know, before that, they had none of it. Wow. You know, even at that, that's how I knew I could maximize their revenue because I was like, "Oh my gosh, they're just kind of pumping into $250,000 a year, right?" Okay. If I focus on it for them, if I develop a package, you know, I created their logo. I created their first sales package. I, you know, I hired a team of salespeople. And so, you know, the ascension was not as difficult. Again, certain things when you read them look differently than they really were in reality.
Okay. Okay. How do you find good salespeople?
Well, my first recruitment was with the Howard University School of Business.
Okay. Yeah. The students in the school of business. My two top salespeople during those days were students who I had recruited when they were seniors in college. They came start working part-time and as soon as they graduated they went into, you know, full-time employment. I mean it was again not as challenging as it would appear because I'm on the campus with people looking for... back in those days every college student even if their parents were paying their tuition had some type of gig. They did something. That was just our culture at that time, you know. And so, you know, I had a whole, you know, reservoir. I was right across the street from the reservoir, too. Full of hungry individuals who were fascinated by media also.
to get their foot in the door. Okay. Hey, had a need to earn money, wanted to get their foot in the media door, and had a very respectable, you know, product called WHUR, Howard University Radio. A lot of excitement, you know, remember I was in the early days of the station.
Do you find that that hunger still exists today? I mean, with social... Yeah, I was going to say I don't see that. Yeah.
No. No. Okay. And part of it is because social networks and the media unfortunately glamorize instant gratification.
Okay. So, you know, the sacrifice, the hard work, the hunger, you know, it's kind of like how, you know, our community has told smart black kids that it's not cool to be smart, right?
The same thing with it's really not cool to be hungry. It's really not cool to need a job. Okay? Right? You know, so often I interview young people who act as if they are doing me a favor to come and apply for this job. I know you've experienced that, right?
And I'm going to tell you how to do radio facts better than you can.
Exactly. Yes. Absolutely.
And they have their own agendas.
So go start your own, do your own.
And then they have their own agendas at the same time. It's like, you know, they pretty much... Yeah. You have to keep more of an eye on them than you do. I totally get that. And you have to watch the brand, which is why I was saying, how do you trust... I can kind of understand how an owner would have issues with trust today more than ever. Because there's so many obstacles. There's social networking. There's so many things that are going on that if you...
You know, you have to be on top of all of it. So, I totally understand that.
You know. Absolutely. Mhm.
And you know, I mean, one of the problems, not just social networking, but all of the...
with technology, all of the various avenues that are open to young people. So they're shopping for handbags when they should be researching.
Okay. Right. The next person you're going to do an interview with. Okay.
Or they're watching Netflix. Okay. Because they fell asleep last night and didn't get to see the ending of something they were watching on Netflix. It's so easy for them to be distracted. None of those, you know, existed years ago. All of that is new. So, you know, you walk into an office and there's a 22-year-old, you know, signing up for Match.com or BlackPeopleMeet. Okay. All right. Instead of concentrating on what it is that you're paying them to do, right? And again, no hunger.
And because there's no hunger, there's also no gratitude. Right. How many of us... Okay. How many of us... I mean, I'll go to my grave singing the praises of Tony Brown. If he called me right now, I would abort this interview with you and run to do whatever it is that he needed for me to do because he opened the door of opportunity for me. I'll always be loyal to Tony Brown. I'll always be grateful to Tony Brown. Because I was hungry. I needed that opportunity. So, I appreciated it. When you're not hungry, you don't recognize that someone has opened the door for you or that you should be grateful or that you should be loyal. So often young people use their first or second or sometimes third or fourth or fifth opportunity as a stepping stone. They're just with you until they get, quote, something better.
Right. Exactly. Yeah. And well, the one thing I think I was talking to another entrepreneur the other day. I think the one thing that remains constant is relationships. You know, there is an instant gratification but relationships at the end of the day are going to, you know, be more profound than, you know, because you can always go back and ask for something else. You know, instant gratification, you get one chance.
And that's really the key.
