Hello, we're here for another episode of Ritmo no Mercado. I'm Taiana de Zaró, XP B2B ambassador, partner and commercial lead at RJ Mais.
And I'm Darla Sierra. You can find me on Instagram at Darla Sierra, CEO of VLG Investimentos, XP B2B ambassador. And today we have a special guest.
Today I would say it's a great honor, and for an even more special reason.
Exactly. We're celebrating, we're celebrating XP's 25th anniversary, right?
Exactly. And today we're going to talk with someone who simply had to be here on an occasion like this.
That's right. And folks, when a company turns 25, the question stops being a bit about how it started — although we love hearing how it started — and becomes what needs to keep being done to stay relevant.
And today the conversation is about maturity, discipline, hard choices, and the future.
It's with great pleasure that we welcome here on Ritmo no Mercado Guilherme Benchimol, founder of XP. Welcome.
Thank you, girls. You're full of energy [laughter] here, super in sync. You say the right thing at the right time. Looking good.
Let's talk a little about the past. 25 years of XP completed now in May.
And 50 years of life this year. Two important milestones. Is there going to be a party?
Ah, but that's fair. 50 is important. Plus 25. So, half of your life there with building XP.
Amazing. What was the invisible personal price of building XP? The one nobody saw?
That's quite a different question, isn't it? Ah, the invisible price — I wonder if you can find just one, right? Look, the invisible price is, in a way, becoming conditioned into a neurosis. I don't know if that's clear, right? Well, I was CEO of the company for 20 years, right? Being a CEO is an enormous challenge. Starting the company was super complex, and then you become a survivor, but you get a little neurotic — neurotic about things, you can't rest your mind. Obviously you gain maturity, you learn to deal with pressure, with stress and so on. But I think when you asked about the invisible price, I think it's a bit of that — you become a little neurotic about things and you allow yourself very little.
You get very focused. Even though I haven't been CEO of the company for 20 years, I'm always attentive to the details, always following everything, because I conditioned myself to be that way, you know? So when you create your habits, after a while they create you, you know? You create the habits, and then that becomes who you are. It certainly wasn't like that 30 years ago, but I think XP kept making me this way, and in the end today I am that, right? I end up being a product of what the company's story turned me into, right, in a way. But with more maturity, obviously, right, you learn to deal with, to domesticate all those things. The years, fatherhood.
Yes, yes.
The priorities too — even though the company, right, is something we talk about, we know it's a priority of yours, especially since we're always around here and you're always at XP. There was that video that went viral at the end of the year of you arriving at XP early while many people were traveling. So we know you truly live that, right? But many things sometimes change the priority a bit with age, with family, with building other things, right?
No, I think there's a thing in me, right, which is that competitive sense, that thing of we have to keep advancing, we have to keep improving, that thing of having established many pacts with many people — with my partners, with you, with the employees, with the external offices. There are a lot of people involved, you know? So we can't afford not to keep improving and advancing. So I think that keeps me still quite obsessed in a good way, you know? So I think that's the price — I think that's the true price. People learn to say: 'Ah, I want to start my company because I'll have freedom.' Forget it, [laughter] that's not true, okay? You won't have freedom.
You end up with the best worst boss, which is yourself, right?
That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And it's not about money, it's not about — obviously in the beginning it's about money, it's about having some success, it's about showing that you're capable, but afterwards it's about everyone who's with you, you know? So, that's it.
And you said, Guilherme, that you haven't been CEO of the company for some time, but as a leadership reference, we know that doesn't change and won't change, right? And we know that when we hold a leadership position, there comes a moment when the decision starts to stop being technical and becomes more solitary, right? The leadership role, in certain moments — I think in most of them — is a role that needs to be very solitary. So it's a time when we need to choose what's best for everyone. And thinking about that, can you remember what was the most solitary decision you ever made in your career in these 25 years of XP?
Look, it's true that a traditional CEO's role is lonely, but I never felt alone at XP. Above all, above all, because I built a partnership. So I always had a very open, very horizontal relationship with my partners. So I always shared the decisions, and even though I had autonomy in them, I always wanted to hear everyone's opinion, and in the end it was common sense that ended up reigning. So I had my opinions, but I was open to improving, and if someone brought me a better argument, I would change sides, right? So I never felt alone in here.
I think the most difficult decision I — or rather, the most solitary one I made at the company — I think it was the decision to accept Itaú as a partner, because there are some decisions in life that, even though you have partners and you listen, in the end it's you who decides, right? That decision was super difficult, it was super — it wasn't solitary, but it wasn't trivial, because we were joining forces with our biggest competitor.
Itaú has all its competence, there's no doubt about that, right? We were, and still are, the counterpoint to the banks. Brazil has the largest banking concentration of investments in the world. So how are we going to join with our biggest competitor? Right? That's not trivial. But at the same time, at the time, we understood there was an important message of credibility. Look, we're joining with a competitor on a minority basis. He won't interfere in the company, but at the same time he'll help us gain credibility. That's important. But it wasn't a 90-10, 80-20 or 70-30 decision, it was 51-49.
So there were some of our partners who said, look, it makes sense, and others who didn't. So we even flirted with going public at that moment. The approval was very solitary. I remember that a week before we opened the operation — so we were signing the deal and at the last minute we said, wait, we don't want to do this anymore. So the deal died, and then it ended up coming back, and the final word ended up being, in fact, a decision of mine. And I don't regret it, but it wasn't trivial, it was super difficult. I remember that on the day of the signing, one day before, I remember I went running — I used to run a lot back then — I went running, did three laps around the park.
I was going to say that — he went away running and never came back [laughter].
It was like that — running always helped me have clearer thoughts and, anyway, I always looked for signs and such. So that was a bit of it. That approval was very solitary. I think it's like this: the day-to-day isn't solitary, but there are some moments where in the end you have to have someone who decides, right?
Especially at those inflection points, right? Where it changes the narrative, right? A decision like that really isn't trivial.
I remember that at that moment — VLG will turn 10 years old this November. I had just left Itaú, with 10 years of market experience in the ELF segment. And it was a moment when clients would even joke: 'Ah, you knew, right, that Itaú...' I said: 'No, of course, they called me to tell me.' [laughter] I didn't know. But I think that movement happened, right? We managed to position the narrative so that — even Itaú invested, right? Let me see why you don't, right? So it was a moment that boosted a lot. I remember the campaigns were very well done in that sense and that we took great advantage of it, right?
Without a doubt. No, and in the end it was a success.
Itaú had the financial success it so wanted. We gained credibility, the company grew a lot. So the operation with Itaú is 7-8 years old now, about 8 years. Obviously it wasn't only because of that, but I remember that at the time XP was going to be a company that managed around R$70 billion, maybe R$80 billion in assets.
Today it's more than R$1.5 trillion, so we grew 20 times in seven, eight years. So that's a lot.
So it wasn't only Itaú, obviously, but Itaú certainly at that moment brought a lot of credibility, brought a lot of security. Remembering that the autonomous agent at that moment wasn't a well-known figure in Brazil, right? Not even within the sector, right? We didn't even hear, for example, inside the bank, that a career step was becoming an investment advisor. It wasn't.
So, and there are moments in your trajectory where sometimes the decision doesn't seem right, right? You're going to join your biggest competitor, right? But sometimes what seems wrong is right, because sometimes life isn't a straight line, it's a zigzag. You want to get there, but first you have to aim there. You do that, then you curve, then you make the turn.
We're going to talk about the book now. The next question, in fact, is a quote from the book that I want to bring up. But folks, I highly recommend reading it, because we lived this story and from another perspective, right? We already know the final result, but as I read it, it seemed like I didn't know the story — like a suspense — because there really were many moments of great victories.
I'll confess that I've never read the book, okay? [laughter]
I recommend it to you. It's a story — but there are moments here in the book that it brings, and it gives a very humanized look at you. The book is about you, folks, I'll even show the cover for those who don't know it.
It gives a very humanized look at you. And perhaps for this preparation process for your interview it was very important for us to look, because you look a bit at the inner layers of the story you lived, because it's your business, right? For us here it's our business, we know it worked out, we're here at XP, we chose XP and each of us within our operations. But in the book, referring specifically to 2014, the author says the following: 'Even with XP worth more than 1 billion, the financial elite couldn't hide its disdain for the company.' My question to you is: do you agree with that phrase referring to that moment? And if so, where do you think the key turned?
Look, really going back in time there, going back 10, 15 years in time, even a bit more, right? 15 years in time, 14, 12 years back, right? At that time we didn't have — the financial market was very traditional, it was very — there was here in São Paulo the cigar club, so the brokerage firms were the grandparents' and then the children's. So there was a very big tradition, and I didn't have tradition, I started from scratch, I had a different model, I didn't have a noble family — not in the sense of rich and so on. In my family there wasn't a single entrepreneur. So I think that made everyone see me and see XP as a big adventure, especially because there were those autonomous agents, so it was a very questioned model, but I had come from — I was born as an autonomous agent, so I knew that model and I knew there was something there that made a lot of sense, right?
And unlike the financial market at the time, which was, let's say, a bit antiquated, I was tuned into what had worked in the world. So I had a clear vision of the type: look, it worked in the United States, it worked in Europe, it worked in Asia, this is going to work here in Brazil. So I had great confidence, but really we were seen as an underdog. But I was never bothered by that — I was never bothered by the criticisms. I simply kept my head down and had my beliefs and kept moving forward. So I think that's a real lesson. If you want to do something different, you have to keep your head down, have your beliefs, and self-motivate with what you believe in.
So I motivated myself with my indicators, with my achievements, and in the end, the rest didn't matter. So I think maybe — I never wanted to give an answer to the market, but I think when Itaú entered as our partner, maybe that was the answer. Look — if Itaú entered as a partner, that validation — if Itaú entered as a partner, maybe now this business has value, right? So in '12 we did the operation with the Daycoval, right, at a valuation of R$1.2 billion. And I think Malu made that comment in '14, is that what you said?
'14. And in 2017, with Itaú, we did the operation at R$12 billion. So I think the value construction is perhaps a perception of — wait, I think maybe I was wrong, but I think for you to succeed — and again, I think we are succeeding, right? Because if you think you've succeeded, it's the beginning of the end. The beginning of the end. I think you can't worry about either the criticisms or the praise. You have to have a neutral head, you have to be focused, you have to be asking yourself all the time where you can improve, where you can advance. And I think that's the mentality of a winning team.
And on that point, I was going to make the connection now, because it's a posture of yours that we also see right after the big victories, right? It's going back and working the next day.
And following — the team, the team criticizes me like: 'Man, you have to celebrate more, man, let's have some wine.' I say: 'Guys, [laughter] no, let's get here early.' So I remember when we closed the operation with Itaú, right, using this case as an example — we signed the operation, obviously we spent a week without sleeping with lawyers and pulling all-nighters, and so on. We signed the operation on, I don't know, a Wednesday at 10 p.m. The next day, Thursday morning, we were here, understand? I was here with everyone already telling the story, explaining and so on. So, right, I think I need to improve on that aspect. I agree, but I think it's the neurosis we talked about earlier, right? Of the type: look, we know how fragile it is to run a company, right? Fragile in the sense that things change, the market changes, the competition — and how do you build a team? If you don't build a team that's neurotic in a good way, you won't survive in the long run, right? So that culture of always dreaming big, with an open mind, with an entrepreneurial spirit, right? Always wanting to improve, learn, being humble. That's what keeps you alive over time.
I think even in this way we have today, right, of a generation in a world that's getting faster, more dynamic. So it's the kind of thing where we get this feeling: if I stop, maybe something gets left behind, right? But bringing up the connection you mentioned, Guilherme, about decisions, about difficulties. We know that not only in the financial market, but in any market, we learn early on that strategic decisions aren't always the most popular or comfortable ones, right? We talked a lot about this even yesterday at RJ, where we celebrated 18 years as a company, and Xand and Dudu talked about the risks and everything they took back then to create it. And thinking about that, right, we know that the wear and tear often comes before the recognition and before saying it worked out or it's working out — is there an extremely hard decision? I know we just talked about Itaú, maybe there's even a connection, but an extremely hard decision you made back then that caused wear and tear and that even knowing about that wear and tear today you'd say: 'I would make it again?'
I think the most difficult decisions I made, that I had to learn to make, were in the people aspects. Look at this curious fact, right? Did you know that until 2010 I had never fired anyone, and at XP until 2010 only one person had left. So we must have had 200 employees and only one person left the company in 10 years.
And I had the belief that a company was a family. And if it's a family, you don't fire the mother, the uncle, the cousin. And I was a very centralized person, without realizing it, right? Because when you start a company from scratch, you have to be centralized, because you don't have the conditions to have big teams and so on. So you have to learn to manage. And so I kept advancing and so on, and I was very overloaded. And I wasn't a person who — I didn't know how to build teams that well back then. And when I realized I had to move on the team, it was a very difficult suffering, especially because I started moving on people who had been through a lot with me.
So every entrepreneur who starts from scratch has this dilemma, right? Like: wow, I have a group here that started with me, that went through a lot with me, and now that things are starting to work out a bit, I'm going to have to remove this person. And then you're in a moral dilemma, because the moral dilemma is this: wow, should I remove this person or should I leave them here? I overload myself, I send the wrong message internally, because every entrepreneur says the company is meritocratic, everyone says it's meritocratic, but it's a word that's easy to say and hard to implement, because meritocracy is ensuring you only keep on the team who is truly competent at that moment, right? And not that the person wasn't competent, but maybe the company grew and the person didn't adapt to the current phase of the company.
And then I learned — I ended up changing a partner, changing a director. Then I changed the whole team. At first I thought it wasn't moral, right? Man, I'm not going to remove the person. But then you start understanding, you start creating method, you start explaining, you start having a more robust HR area, right? You start showing that look, if you're not hitting your target, if you don't have good behavior, if you don't have a good evaluation — but while you don't have that operational model, it's very much about conversation, right? And obviously the people were always committed, but many people confuse commitment with competence, and if you don't have that operational method, it's hard to explain that just with words.
And measuring it too is sometimes hard.
Measuring and so on. So the company of 15 years ago was an amateur company, right? So every entrepreneur goes through this phase where he has to face it head-on, and it's a challenge, often a moral one, right? Should I stay good with my friend or should I overload myself? And unfortunately if you don't learn to deal with this, the business will tend to die.
