He said, "I need to talk to you." I thought, "Oh, he's having an affair." He told me he had $50,000 in debt. It got us into a bigger hole.
We are spending more than we make.
I worked really hard to get where I'm at. Then I made stupid decisions about helping my kids out.
I've put us in debt. I should have said there and then, we cannot afford it. We cannot do it. I wasn't brave enough.
I get a text. I have to go pick up my daughter. Can you give me some gas money?
We pay for a decorator to come around and paint the house.
I just want to help my kids.
What about helping yourself?
These boundaries are the things that allow you to retire. It's not just about saying no to your kids. It's actually about saying yes to your life. What is going to happen if nothing changes?
Destitute, homeless, we will end up with nothing.
What would you do if you got to your 50s or 60s and you didn't have enough money saved? Today I'm speaking with Mary and Harry. They are 57 and 62 years old. They spend more than they make every single month and they continue to subsidize their adult children. Just listen to their numbers. I'm going to take a look at their conscious spending plan. Assets: $476,000. Investments: $499,000. Savings: $3,009. Very low. Debt: $435,000. Total net worth: $542,000. Fixed costs: 139%. That's the ball game. Completely untenable. And with savings of only $3,000, they are essentially hours away from running out of money. What you are seeing here is an extremely dangerous situation. Consider, not only is this couple spending more than they make, not only does this couple have less than $5,000 in savings, this couple is in their 50s and 60s. So time is of the essence. We've got to make huge changes and we've got to make them right now. I will say I am thankful that they came to talk to me because burying your head in the sand is not a strategy and I hope that we can make some huge changes together and do it quickly. Now, let's meet Mary and Harry. Mary, you wrote something in your application to me that I would like to read. You wrote, "The biggest challenge in our relationship is a combination of adult children, broken financial trust, and a severe income imbalance. Most of the financial strain related to the adult children comes from my children, though his children have also contributed at times. Their ongoing crises and financial dependence are draining our resources and putting us at serious financial risk." Mhm. Is that accurate?
That's very accurate. And he has not read the application.
So, he doesn't know what I wrote.
Harry, what's your reaction to that, hearing it for the first time?
Total agreement. We've helped them. Now, we really need to help ourselves.
Okay. What was behind when you wrote that? Where were you and what was happening?
I was incredibly overwhelmed. We have given one of my children quite a bit of money.
Uh, probably $20,000, $30,000. And the problem is it was out of our HELOC. So it contributed to a huge chunk of debt.
And Harry's income is inconsistent. Um, so it's hard to manage the finances every month and um it's a huge burden, a burden that I brought on us, a burden that Harry's contributed to and I do the finances. So, I was just overwhelmed. I was probably done at that point, you know, ready to escape.
How often do you feel overwhelmed with money?
Most of the time, almost every day, it is always on my mind.
You wake up, you think about it. Go to work, you think about it. At night, you think about it.
Mhm. What do you feel when money is on your mind?
I'm angry at myself for contributing to our financial difficulties, the debt that we're in. And I keep trying to maneuver figures around to see if we can do something better. We don't live outside of our means. We hardly go out to eat. We don't buy a lot of clothes. Harry drives a what, 2007 Subaru that's held together with duct tape and zip ties, you know. So, I don't know what else to cut.
If you don't live above your means... Mhm. What do you think is going on here?
I've made some very poor choices. He's made some very poor choices. And it's very easy to point a finger and blame each other. I think we got ourselves into a big mess with having this HELOC and not using it appropriately. So now we're in a ton of debt. There were instances where Harry was not honest with me about his debt. Um, he recently, about a year ago, told me he had $50,000 in debt. So, a lot of decisions we made or I made without knowing about that. And so, it got us into a bigger hole.
And Harry, where are you on this? The 50k of debt. What was that?
I was actually 43k in debt. COVID hit me as it did a lot of the population. The big factor is I ran up several credit cards over a period of time.
Oh, just living, purchasing, flights back to the UK, just general living. Supported minimally with the money I was bringing in. Last June, I saw that Mary was struggling with her side of the financial debt, which I've contributed to. And I had to be brave enough, courageous to tell her where I was at and what I brought to this.
What was that conversation like? What do you remember about it?
He said, "I need to talk to you." And we went outside and sat in the rocking chair under the trees and I thought, "Oh, he's having an affair." But thank goodness he wasn't. So I was just like, "Oh god, what is he going to tell me?" Um, and he just said, he just spit it out. I think he said 50,000.
And what was your reaction?
Shock. That's a lot of money. Um, I knew he wasn't being truthful about things because he wasn't being forthcoming with money. Any conversations about money, I couldn't get a straight answer from him. So, I guess I wasn't surprised, but I was shocked at the amount of money, but I didn't yell or scream at that point.
I told him to research all the different options, bankruptcy, debt consolidation, and that we would work through it, and we'd figure, we had to figure something out. So—
So today, are you better off or worse off?
Uh, the 43k was immediately dealt with by a debt consolidation company who advised me not to go into bankruptcy. So I followed pursuit of that and they got it down to 21.
Right now I'm at 18 with payoffs.
Okay. How long have the two of you been together?
16 going on 17. Married for that long?
No. No. We bought a house together in 2014. So that's when we would say we were common law married. Married in a bank.
Are you legally married now?
Are there children involved here?
Yes. We have a blended family, seven kids all together, all grown. Harry has three boys in the UK and a son out here in the States and then I have two boys. One lives in Australia, one lives close to us and then a daughter as well. And we also have five grandchildren. One on the way and one of the grandchildren we're fostering, one of our grandbabies. Yeah.
Got it. Okay. Great. Um, how old is that grandchild that you're fostering?
5 months. Wow. Okay, great. What role does money play in your relationship?
It's just a big obstacle for our relationship and moving forward and having the life we want to have. We do argue a lot. I feel very lost on how to get out of this big hole and how to talk about it.
It is one of the things we argue the most about. We argue about money and we argue about our kids sometimes, but it's usually because of money.
So, it just feels like an obstacle we can't overcome.
Yeah. Would you say that you have been trying to overcome it or have you been trying to ignore it?
Both. Um, I try to overcome it and then I get frustrated and I ignore it for a long time. So—
And what about we? I hear you. What about we as a couple?
We talk but we don't get anywhere. We don't have the answers. We don't know where to go forward. We have our home. It's our biggest expense. And it feels like that is what's staring at us in the face like you might not be able to afford this house. But it also feels like even if we sold our house, it would feel like I'm a failure. It really would.
Do you feel like you're a failure with money now?
I feel like I worked really hard to get where I'm at and then I made stupid decisions about helping my kids out. And it put us in a really bad space. That's my contribution to our debt.
Okay. Harry, what's the role of money in your relationship?
Well, obviously not speaking with Mary about my financial misuse. Since revealing to Mary what I'd done on my own to put us in a hole, I felt a massive sense of relief telling Mary that we need to stop the bleeding, work a game plan together, and be hardcore on taking care of ourselves before we take care of anybody else.
Have you done that? What's the game plan that you're working with right now?
Well, in terms of revenue, I work in sports coaching. I've started building up slowly my coaching, private coaching, skills lessons, etc., etc., which is evolving. I'm generating a lot more income to contribute to the house account.
So, you're increasing your earnings. That's good. Now, Mary, you mentioned that when you talk about money together that it is frequently combative. Can you think of a time in the last few months where you've had a combative conversation?
It usually happens when I'm stressing about money and I'm like, "We have to make more money. We have to figure this out." I started getting on him about what are you doing to get clients? You need to be more aggressive. You need to charge more money for sessions. You can make more money. And you know, you just have to go for it a bit more.
Sorry. Can we recreate this conversation?
Who was the one who began that conversation?
Okay. Go ahead and speak to him and I'll just listen in.
Harry, you need to make more money. I don't see you working very hard to get clients. And I know that people want you to coach them. I know they want clinics and I just don't see you being aggressive and getting that.
I understand and I can see that coming from you.
Is this how the conversation goes?
Are you sure? I'm finding this hard to believe. I don't think you all talk like this. There's not a single sentence of combativeness in this. I'd never heard a couple talk like this.
Maybe a better conversation would be when we're talking about when I give some money to my son for gas.
Okay, talk about it, Harry.
I gave Patrick 80 bucks for gas cuz he's helping us. Uh, he's coming down to fix your car and he needs gas money.
Okay, that's it. I have no choice.
You say okay and that's it.
It's like a pained, "Okay." Is that it?
From day one, I said no, we can't afford it. And then I swear it's now 30-plus thousand. I said no to both of them. We cannot afford it. We cannot do it. The hidden part of that was still I'd not revealed to Mary my current debt. So there's a balance there of I've put us in debt. Here's another one coming. I should have said there and then that was a moment for me to be—I wasn't brave enough.
So is the idea, Harry kept this secret $50,000 in debt and therefore who am I to say you can't help your son?
I should have been stronger and I wasn't.
Okay. So, what is the dynamic happening here?
I would do it anyway. I would justify it. There's a granddaughter involved which makes it really hard not to help out and that's not good for our relationship obviously. So, I don't know how to say no to my kids and I would justify it. I just want to help them.
You still don't know how to say no as of today, right?
And I still struggle. I'm in therapy to learn how to say no.
How long have you been doing that?
Just recently.
I don't like seeing my kids struggle. I don't want to see my son lose access to our granddaughter, which would mean we would lose access to her, you know, and if he doesn't have a working vehicle, how's he going to work? How's he going to see her? And I'm making decisions based on emotion. And it's really hard.
When you zoom out and you look at that conversation that you had, what role did each of you play?
I played the aggressor. The boss, we need more money. You need to make more money.
Mhm. And then when it came to spending on your son, the sole decider, right?
Yeah. Here's what's happening. Okay. And Harry, what role did you play?
I just let it bypass me. You just said, "Okay," in one ear, out the other. Sort of like whatever. Hands up, whatever.
And what about the part about you need to earn more money? What role did you play in that?
I didn't really have a role. I just laid down and took what was coming my way. Because of selfishness, guilt over what I had done.
Mhm. What do you notice about both of your roles when you're talking to each other about money in your relationship? What do you notice?
There's no game plan between us.
At first, I'll try to be nice. I don't want to hurt Harold's feelings, so I'll walk softly and then I get frustrated.
What I noticed is both of you take a self-centered approach. It's all about you. You have the thing you want to accomplish out of the conversation. Mary, you want to tell him he needs to earn more money or pay for your kids in some way. And that's what's gonna happen. You're just gonna tell him. Harry, you are uncomfortable with these conversations. And so, in your mind, like you said, I just lay down and take it because I want it to be over. You're not actually having a conversation. It's the chaser, the avoider. It's one person being the aggressor, the other passive, and just hurry up. Let's get this over with. You can't be a team when you have this dynamic. It doesn't matter what the numbers look like. I would like to take a look at your numbers. Before I put them up, what was it like to create the conscious spending plan together?
I did it and when I needed a number from him, I would just say, "Hey, what's this?"
Why didn't you do it together? Isn't that the instructions?
Because it's easier if I do it. I don't know if we would have done it unless I did it.
I didn't know when Mary was doing it. So, I felt I was being left out.
Did you invite him to do the CSP together?
Um, probably not. I probably just did it. I know he didn't want to do this.
Ah, so. Okay, got it. So, is this a decision?
Yes. What are you noticing? You look kind of embarrassed right now. What's going on, right? What are you realizing?
Um, I make decisions for us. And then I say, "This is what we're doing because I want to do it."
Mhm. And then Harry doesn't participate in part cuz I don't think you really like money or at least managing money. But also, you both have a dynamic where you don't invite him. So, he goes, "Great, she didn't invite me. I trust her. You know what you're doing. You're good with money even though you're not." And so each person goes off into their own corner and does their thing. Meanwhile, what happens to the money? It just gets spent. Mary and Harry are in a self-reinforcing loop that is very difficult to get out of. Mary likes to have control. So, she manages the money. By the way, she's not particularly good at it. Harry feels guilty about money because he has this secret spending. So, he doesn't want to say anything about money. It's not even his place. So, he goes, "Oh, you're so good at it, babe. You handle it." So then Mary feels alone. She's now forced to manage the money poorly again. Oh, and by the way, she can't say no to anybody, so she just ends up giving everybody a bunch of money. Do you see how it's like a snowball and it just builds on itself? It gets faster and bigger, except the bigger it gets, the worse it gets for them. This is very difficult to escape from. But I need them to see this dynamic so that they can get out of it. We're going to take a look at their numbers right after this.
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Let's take a look at the numbers. Uh, Mary, can you read off the word in bold and the number next to it, please, for this entire box?
Assets is $476,000. Investments is $499,924. Savings is $3,009. Debt is $435,978 for a total net worth of $542,955.
Okay. What do you think about those numbers?
Well, I guess it was about what I thought it would be.
And when you look at these numbers, do you feel anything?
Oh, that's—we need a lot more in savings and obviously if I want to retire at 65, we need to increase our investments quite a bit, too.
What scares me is we have the mortgage. So, and it's a 30-year mortgage, which we've been paying on not that long. So, we'll be in our 80s paying a mortgage. And that to me is not—we can't do that.
So, Harry, what do you think about these numbers?
They're not very good for the future, should we wish to retire if we even can.
What part concerns you the most?
I think being locked into the house knowing that I'm not going to live for 30 years.
Let's take a look at the rest of the numbers. Okay. Um, Harry, can you read off the combined monthly gross income?
Okay, great. So, I understand that that number is variable, but let's take it as an average, shall we? So, that means combined, the two of you—do you know your household income, annual household income? $94,000. Did you know that?
Uh-huh. Harry, what'd you think it was?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say around 95 cuz I make 76 and then, you know.
All right. Shall we look at the rest of the numbers? So fixed costs, Mary, what's that number there?
139. Yeah, that's what freaked me out.
That we are spending more than we make.
Yeah. You are spending far more than you make every single month.
Yes. That's it. Nothing else matters right there. That is why you feel anxious about money. That is why you are running out of money. And considering that you have $3,000, do you know how long you can last?
Two weeks. Yeah. And we have a little less than that now. Yeah.
It is a grave danger. Let's continue. Investments are at 8%. Your savings are at 14%. Let me take a big guess. Let me guess that in the last two to three months, you've started contributing money to your savings. True or false?
Tell me. I love to be surprised.
I just automatically take money and it automatically goes into my savings account.
Then why is there only $3,000 in your savings account?
Because then I use that to cover the kids, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. And then finally, we have guilt-free spending at what's that number?
You are spending an extra at least $3,000 per month than you make.
What does all this tell you?
Well, it's not sustainable. Sometimes I feel it's not that bad.
Why do you think it's not so bad?
And I shouldn't say—in December we refinanced the house and we put the HELOC and what I owed on one of our cars into one loan. Oh, and the credit card debt. So now we don't have credit card debt.
Mhm. So this is why you think it's not so bad.
So it doesn't feel that bad because I can pay the credit cards every month. But in reality, it's all now tacked on to our mortgage. It was about probably another $100,000 when it was all said and done added to our mortgage. Yeah.
What do you think about that?
It feels like we're never going to get that paid off.
You want me to be honest with you? You probably won't. Not the way you treat money today. What is going to happen if nothing changes?
Destitute, homeless, um, just miserable and looking forward to death.
I'm not amused. I'm taking this more seriously than you are. I'm right on track with that because we would have absolutely nothing and nothing to look forward to.
That's not true. That's not true. You are engaging in hyperbole to avoid the reality of the situation because it's easy to say destitute and we have nothing. You have $499,000 in investments. You have a $476,000 asset. You have some kind of pension. So it's actually disrespectful to simply say destitution, we have nothing. No, engage in reality. Be specific. What is going to happen if you make no changes? I want exact specifics of what is going to happen.
If nothing changes, we will end up with nothing.
A year. A year. I'm just throwing that out there. If we go on like we are going, seeing those numbers up there, we'd be dipping into, which we have been, everything we've got just to continue down that pathway of oblivion.
Mhm. You don't look at numbers frequently, do you?
I do, but not in depth. If I have a dollar, could I make it two? Could I make it five? Yeah. And I think we have that. We just don't know how to do it.
No, you don't have that. I'm looking at the same numbers you are. You do not have some magical way to quintuple your money. No. If you were 25, you would cuz you just let it sit in the market. You are not 25. You are in your 50s and 60s. So, that's not happening. What you have is very simple math. I will never ask anyone to do complex math on this show. It costs you about $7,000 a month just to keep the lights on. You have $500,000. So even if we go like a full year with no income, you could theoretically draw from your investments, all of it, and you could still go years just coasting off your investments. Now, would I do that? No. That would be extremely dumb. But we need to be living in reality with these numbers. So Harry, when you say like we have a year maybe, no, just looking at these numbers, 500,000, it costs you $7,000 a month just to keep the lights on, which is like, let's just say about $90,000, $100,000 a year. That's at least 5 years purely based on investments.
Mary, what happens if you change nothing?
We're gonna continue how we are, not making ends meet. I mean, we'll be able to live for a while, but it'll still be stressful. We won't be able to live our lives that we want to live, travel, go out to eat once in a while, you know, and eventually it'll catch up to us. I don't know how long, but I won't be bringing in the money when I retire. We're still going to be overspending every month. And the reality is when you get older, it costs more to live because of health care expenses and whatnot. So, it'll just be a stressful existence.
Will it be better or worse than you are today?
You know, we have to replace his car at some point. That's more debt. We don't have money to replace his car. We have old appliances in our house. Eventually, we're going to have to replace this. I mean, so all this stuff continues. So, it'll be the same as what we're doing now.
I don't want that for you.
What would happen in this scenario where you change nothing? We fast forward a few years and one of your kids calls you up and says they need help with a $10,000 car repair. What would you do?
Um, I couldn't help them.
What would you say to them?
I would say, "No, I can't." And then I'd probably try to figure out what I could do. You know, I can give you $5,000 because I—or I have $3,000 in savings or we put it on the credit card. Um, again, I'm in therapy for creating boundaries. So, I hope I would be able to say no.
This is a really tough situation.
I just want to help my kids. They had a tough life. So—
What about helping yourself?
Yes, I would like to help myself too.
I appreciate the honesty. I would like to understand a little bit about how you grew up with money. Mary, you mentioned your kids had a tough upbringing. I would like to go back to your childhood. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid?
Not much. Um, my father worked very hard. And my mom was for the most part a stay-at-home mom.
What part of the country did you grow up in?
Yeah. But my dad's from Cuba.
So, he was the provider and my mom was the homemaker and my mom spent a lot of money and my dad would complain about her spending money. And he was in international sales, so he'd go out of town quite a bit and then she'd go spend money on what she wanted.
And when he came back, would they fight?
Yeah, they didn't fight too much in front of us, but yeah.
And was the fight serious or was it like we're each playing a role and it's kind of cute? Which one was it?
No, they get serious about it.
Are they still alive? Still married?
Yeah, still married. Married almost 60 years, but my dad died a couple years ago. Passed away a couple years ago.
Okay. So, how is your mom with money?
Uh, for instance, we went to the garden center the other day and she spent over $300 on plants and that was like her third trip to the garden center.
So, how did she afford it?
She makes okay money, fixed income, you know, from retirement, my dad's pension, whatnot. But not enough. She'll probably run out of money.
What does she say? You talk about money.
Yeah, we talk about money.
Oh, what do you say? That's good.
It's hard. My mom's so nice. It's hard to tell her to stop spending money on the plants, you know. I'm like, "Mom, I'll plant seeds for you, you know." But, um, she spends a ton of money on her dog.
She believes God will provide.
So, wait, what? Hold on. I'm not familiar. I know Catholicism, but Catholics don't believe God will provide.
Not really. Not like that.
Hard work and, you know, helping yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
Interesting. Cuz she's spending money. You know that she's going to run out of it. You talk to her about money. But what's the disconnect?
She grew up in a very—not a rich household but a well-to-do household north of Chicago. She was the baby and my grandfather would give her the credit card and take the train to Chicago and go shopping. So, you know.
So your mom was the somewhat wealthy daughter of a somewhat wealthy family. She gets married. She likes to spend money when her husband, your dad, is out of town. You spend money you don't have as well. And now your kids, do they spend money they don't have as well?
How many generations are we talking about?
Have you ever realized that you have multiple generations engaging in the same overspending?
I noticed it with my kids. I mean, I noticed it with my mom, but I didn't think I was like my mom, but apparently I am.
You noticed it with your kids and your mom, but me? No, not me. Okay. So, just now you've realized there is a pattern linking three generations. What do you feel when you realize that for the first time at age 57? What are you realizing? What are you feeling?
I'm still overwhelmed by it all. I'm just—I don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do.
What do you feel before you get to solutions? Are you happy, sad, dissatisfied, disgusted, confused?
I don't—I'm not supposed to cry. Um, I've been working really hard to just get us on stable ground. So, and then I feel like—and maybe this is where my mom comes from. You know, you've been working so hard. Why can't you go out to dinner or, you know, because you don't have any money, that'll go on the credit card? Well, so what? I just—we deserve to go out to dinner once in a while.
Did your mom say that before?
No, she just does it just like I do. I guess.
Mhm. That makes her sound really selfish. And she's not. She buys for everybody, too.
Oh, she's generous with other people.
Familiar, too. What are you noticing?
And we spend too much money. Sometimes we won't spend, spend, spend. And then I'll spend money that I shouldn't spend because I feel like we're owed it. Like, why not? I work so hard. Why can't I?
Did you realize this before now?
I mean, I would say that I deserve it. I work really, really hard. I deserve to have whatever it is.
And do your kids also deserve nice things, too?
Yes. And no, they deserved nice things when they were younger and I couldn't give it to them.
This is hard to talk about.
Okay. I appreciate you doing it. It's not supposed to be easy here, but that doesn't make it feel good sometimes.
It was hard for them. A single mom and I waited tables. I worked two jobs. I put myself through school and they've had lights turned out, you know, electricity cut off from them. We moved them into a better neighborhood, but then we were the poor family in the better neighborhood. So, that was hard for them. We didn't take vacations. We didn't do anything. And I just—it was hard for them.
Keep going. It was hard for them because what?
Because they didn't get the things that they should have gotten. And they had to go through living in, you know, all of us crammed into a one-bedroom, two-bedroom apartment and moving and, you know, hustling because our car's broken down here and I don't have the money to fix it.
And what's the problem with that?
It was hard. Uh, their friends went on vacations, their friends got cars, their friends had clothes, they didn't have to shop at the thrift store before it was trendy, you know.
Can I—I'm asking legitimately.
Yeah. Things were hard for them.
What's the problem with that?
They didn't get the opportunities.
I don't think that's what you're talking about. I think you are referring to they—
Didn't get things... things that other people had around them.
Yes. And so what is the problem with that?
Because it was embarrassing for them.
For me too. Not being able to provide for them.
Yes. Do you remember at the beginning when we were talking about your dynamics? And I pointed out that when the two of you talk about money, you are both behaving in a blank way. What was the word I used?
Yes. When you tell yourself this narrative about your kids, I'm sure they had a somewhat challenging upbringing. Okay, I'm not diminishing that. But we trace back: so what? So what? Why? So what? And it turns out that it was embarrassing for...
Me. Yeah, it was embarrassing not having a car that worked or having food stamps or whatever. That's embarrassing.
Yeah. And now, when you look back, is it a source of embarrassment still?
Yes and no. No. Because I worked really hard. Like I said, I worked two jobs, which then I wasn't there for my kids, so that was an issue, too. But I worked very, very hard. I thought I set a good example for them. Like, you know, work hard, go to school, do all your stuff. And...
I don't know. I just want to share an example from my own childhood. My parents, immigrants from India. My mom stayed home. Dad worked. We didn't have a lot of stuff. We had a middle class lifestyle. We almost never went on vacation. It was like a road trip. And yeah, like kids had fancier clothes and you know, they looked cooler. Indian kids, they don't look that cool by design. Parents are like, focus, study, you can look cool later. We certainly didn't have the cool shoes and all that stuff. And the story that our family embodies is, yeah, we're not going to have as much stuff as some other people, but we love each other and we're going to work hard. They taught us to study. They taught us to get into great schools. Even if we didn't have money, they taught us how to be street smart so we could get financial aid. And when I look back, I'm glad I didn't have all that stuff. Like, if I wore the clothes back then that I wear now, where do you go from there? So, I like the adversity that I went through. What do you make of that?
We've actually talked about that kind of stuff before and my kids feel that they have more of appreciation for things, that not everything was handed to them. Although I probably, to be honest, would have handed it to them if I could. And also I think one of my kids just doesn't care. Like he wears it as a badge of honor that... What do you make of this? I guess maybe I just have avoided all of it for so long.
Of course you have. Yeah. It's easier to write $25,000 checks to kids and to spend on HELOCs and eating out and all kinds of stuff than to confront some tough stuff. To me, the story you've been telling yourself is one story, but there's a perfectly acceptable alternative story of, yeah, things were tough and thank God they were.
Mhm. Because my kids learned not everything comes easy.
Yeah. That's a very powerful story. You choose. The story you chose is what?
That it was embarrassing.
It was embarrassing. They never had enough and therefore I have to live in penance for the rest of my life. Here, take everything I've got cuz I was a failure and I won't let that. I was embarrassed and I'm still embarrassed. Please take it all.
Yeah. There's a lot of guilt there.
It's so disempowering to you and to them and to Harry. Something to think about and maybe work on in therapy. What do you think?
Absolutely. Yes. I know. I enable my children, especially my one child. Okay.
All right. Thank you for walking me through how you grew up with money. Eye opening. I appreciate that. Do you hear the story that Mary tells herself? It's a pretty powerful one. It's a pretty painful one, too. What I notice is that she has carried that pain through to today. And it's almost as if she feels so guilty that she is going to go the rest of her life trying to make up for it. That is no way to live life. Feeling like you are behind, feeling like you are trying to atone for something you did wrong. You could never even get up to just neutral. I guess I just think about it differently when I hear people going through some sort of adversity, especially one where they came out stronger. I think to myself, how fortunate that you were able to get that lesson. We don't all get lessons of adversity that we come out stronger for on the other end. But if you were able to get that lesson or give that lesson, what a blessing. That's why sometimes when people come on this show and I have tough conversations, sometimes they cry or sometimes they don't like me for a while. What a blessing. What a gift that I could give them to have someone be honest with them. Maybe for the first time in many, many years. When I look back at my own life, I remember not being good at math, especially compared to my friends starting in seventh grade. My mom used to pick me up from middle school and she could tell what my math grade was based on how low my head was when I was walking down the little field to the car. And I know that I wasn't good. My friends were a lot better than I was. And I look back and I think to myself, wow, I learned early on that I was never going to be great at math. But I really tried. I busted my ass. I worked really hard to try to at least get to neutral. And now I know that is not a strength area for me. Okay, what a great way to look back and tell that story. And my wish for Mary is that she looks back at the way she raised her kids and maybe just has a totally different interpretation. Maybe it goes something like this: I was a single mom. It was really hard. I wish I could have done more for my kids, but I did the very best I could. You get to choose your story. And Mary and Harry are a great example of that.
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Harry, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?
It was important, but I came up from a total working-class background. My father was a coal miner and we always had holidays in the same place in Scotland every year growing up. My dad would go to work, come home, didn't do what the other people did, go to the bar or the local miners community and stuff. We wanted for nothing. We didn't have a lot. My father was very astute with money. So I lived on an estate, a neighborhood that wasn't in the mining community. So I knew later on in life that they'd saved and bought that house. It had orchards and apple trees and all the good stuff. From the age of 10, school holidays, I'd be sent to work on the local farms, potato picking. I was taught to graft and work hard. I earned very good money. We decided after a period of years to purchase a house together. I started drinking heavily and I stopped working hard, which is what everything I'd been taught to do. I'm 6 years into dry.
But what it took out of me was I stopped... stopped working.
Yeah. And what about beyond the work? Did it change you here? Your mindset? What did it do?
I became very insular and isolated. I became very enclosed. And not speaking with Mary about the start of my financial use, irregular use of credit cards. There was no income.
Did you used to be open about money?
We were reasonably open. I have money in England through my trust and finance and inheritance money which we've now come to a resolution of numbers and figures on exactly what I've got over there.
Well, I'm 68. It'll be $360,000.
So, this is an inheritance you have that will mature at age 68. Why 68?
That enrolls into my UK pension plan, which gives me more money because I'm 10 years short of a full UK pension.
So, at 68, will you get the full cash?
I will mature and you'll be able to get the full amount.
Okay. Is it accounted for in the conscious spending plan?
I wasn't involved in it, so I would say no.
Did you? Oh, is it in there, Mary?
I think so. So we have investments at 499,000.
That's including yours, I believe. Yeah. Okay. So that's 340 of his plus 150 of the two of you. Is that correct?
No, I have more than that. I want to say I have 250 at least. Yeah.
250. So what's with the other 250 here?
Do you see why you doing this on your own is not working?
I do. I have no clue what I put there or why when I did this.
Exactly. Now listen, I'm not trying to come down on you. I want to just tell you the dynamic because I see this all the time. This is so common. We have the person who's not involved with the money, Harry. Then we have the person who spends hours and hours. They're involved. They often create multiple spreadsheets. They got all these forms and confusing things. They have their own weird system. Sound familiar, Mary? And yet they are not skilled with money and they cannot answer basic questions. And that very person is the one who takes on all the anxiety, but they are not skilled at all. Mary, this is you. You can't answer basic questions about investments. It's not acceptable. It's actually not acceptable for the two of you to be in this dynamic. We have one person doing the money who does not know what she's doing. And it explains why you all are getting nowhere. You're only going down. I'm going to assume that this is accounted for in this investment part of the CSP, both of your investments, which actually makes these numbers even more troubling. Okay? Because without Harry's $250,000, you'll have even less invested. A quarter million less. So after an entire career, that's it. 250. What does that tell you?
Yeah, though it started late the retirement. I've emptied my retirement before. So, it tells me that I'm not going to retire.
Before you get to the solutions, what does it tell you about your behavior?
I'm in avoidance mode. Even though I worry and juggle numbers all the time, I really don't have a grasp of it.
Yes. How long have you been worrying about money?
Forever, right? Yes. Yeah.
And now it's become second nature to you. It actually is a familiar feeling. If you were to not worry, who would you be?
Exactly. That's what a worrier always says. And so worrying has now become your familiar friend. And that worry now allows you to treat it as responsibility. You see worrying as I'm responsible with money. And then at the same time, you go and write $25,000 checks that you don't have the money for, but I'm worried. So, like, I must be responsible. No, it's a vicious cycle you've put yourself in. And then Harry, ignoring the money, not talking about the money, compounds it. Okay, Mary, earlier you said, 'I'm not supposed to cry.' Why?
Huh? I don't think it's embarrassing. I think it's real.
Only person I feel comfortable crying around is Harry.
Okay. This stuff is hard. And I actually kind of love that you felt it was embarrassing and you did it anyway because I like when people sometimes do stuff that feels embarrassing. That's what it takes to be good. And that's actually probably what you're both going to have to do.
And that's okay because sometimes as you put Harry, you're in a hole and if you want to figure out how to get out of that hole, you can't do things the way you've done it. Embarrassing. So what? I cried in front of tons of people. I'm still here. So what?
It's embarrassing being here.
I would say it's bold. So many times I hear you choosing one narrative when I would just choose a totally different one. It's embarrassing to cry. No, it's honest. It's embarrassing to be here. No, it's bold and courageous. I don't know which one is right. But since I get to choose my story, I'm going to choose the empowering one.
Yeah. You can do the same thing. Okay. What role does guilt play in your financial decisions?
We parent our adult children with a lot of guilt. And we want to help them and it brings chaos into our lives.
Do you have chaos in your life?
No. We love our grandson though right now. But no,
You think we thrive on chaos?
I'm exhausted. I really want some peace.
What would you be willing to do to get that peace?
I want to say anything, but I'd keep helping my children. And they always come to us knowing that that will help.
When was the last time you said no?
Harry, when was the last time she said no?
I don't think there is a last time currently.
I understand why, but they're not going to love you any less for saying no. And they all know what a fantastic mother you are. Anyway, I see it all. And it's commendable, but it hurts us. You have the ability to say no without any guilt because you've done more than enough for five families. Because of how stuck they are in their stories, I want to try something radically different. There's a phenomenon in psychology called inoculation theory. And they used to use it with kids teaching them how to say no to smoking. So you know what they would do? This is in the 80s. They would bring them up in front of the room and they would have one kid go up to them and say, 'Hey kid, you need to smoke a cigarette. This is what the cool kids do.' And then the other kid would go, 'No, I don't like to smoke. It's not good for my health.' And they would inoculate themselves by creating a small argument against smoking. And so when the real life thing happened and they got bullied or peer pressured to smoke, they would know exactly what to say. They were already inoculated. So I want them to take that principle and apply it here. I want them to get out of their own heads and start to give my wife and me advice for what we should do. You know why it works? Because people love to give other people advice. Let me ask you this. My wife and I have come to you for advice. We're not in a good financial position. We are approaching retirement, few years away. We don't know if we can retire. We have a mortgage. It's a lot. I don't know if we're ever going to pay it off. We have debt we've taken out on the mortgage. Our income is inconsistent. We have five kids and they're adults and they come to us and we love them and we try to help them. And sometimes we give them money and sometimes we babysit and sometimes we help them get a new appliance. We never really have taken a look at ourselves, our own money, because we've been so busy with the chaos. Seems like we take one step forward and two steps back. My wife and I fight. We fight because we love our kids. We want to make sure they're okay. I'm starting to think that I don't know what to do because our time is running out. What advice do you have for us?
I would say let your kids stand on their own two feet and they're adults.
And so stop enabling them and let them figure it out.
And you can still love them.
And you can love them by letting them be adults.
They had a tough childhood and I want to give them everything that they didn't have.
See, that's where I trip up. They're adults. You give them love. You gave them everything you could at the time, and you still are, and now you need to focus on yourself.
So what am I supposed to do next time they come to me for help? I'm supposed to just slam the door in their face and kick them out? What do I do?
Just tell them you'll help them figure out solutions, but you are not fixing it for them.
I don't know how to do that. They come to me for help. I'm their dad. I'm going to give them every last cent, every last scrap off my back to help them. That's what a parent does, right?
A parent helps their child learn how to navigate the world and stand on their own two feet and they have to figure out things for themselves. If you keep fixing it for them, they're never going to figure it out.
And what about my wife? She's not involved with the money. We don't really talk about money. What do you think I should do with her?
Sit down and have conversations. Go over numbers.
I try to, but it's easier to do it myself. Harry, what advice do you have for me?
