You said, "We are spending more than we're making, but we're over $100,000 in debt."
I'm not very frugal. Comfort is not something that I'm going to cut back on.
Once I have my mind set on something that I want, I'm very stubborn.
Lena, you mentioned you're the one on top of these numbers. How can you be on top of them if your fixed costs are at 98%?
To me, it looks worse than what I feel. I kind of have like the sense of optimism that we're going to be okay.
You've taken on some of those attitudes which are like, "My family was wealthy. I'm going to be wealthy. I'm not cutting back on freaking grocery delivery." You don't have the finances to actually make that feasible.
If we're a plane, we're about to crash.
I rather go out and make more money than have to be home cooking every day.
Hold on. I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to do this today.
Today I'm speaking with Lena, who's 35, and Mike, who is 28. They're a married couple living in South Florida with their eight-month-old son. And together, they earn almost $200,000 a year, and yet they've been in debt their entire marriage. They'll make plans to pay it off. They'll tell themselves it's different this time, but somehow it never is. If you've ever wondered how successful people with high incomes stay stuck in debt for years, this conversation will show you exactly how it happens. And if you don't earn $200,000 yet, I especially want you to listen to this episode to understand that just making more money won't solve all your money problems. I'm about to open up Lena and Mike's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and where they spend. It's the same tool I use in every episode. If you want help with your own CSP, join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching.
Their assets: $845,000, investments: $11,569, savings: $16,370, debt: $755,189, which gives them a total net worth of $117,417. Fixed costs: 98%. That is a massive problem. Investments: 6%. I'm not sure how that even makes sense. How do you get 98 plus 6? Savings are at zero. Guilt-free spending: -2%. We know that's not true.
Now, before we dive in, I want to give a quick shout out to our new listeners. Welcome to the show. Drop a comment below and let us know where you are tuning in from. And here's my question for you. Have you ever been in a relationship where you talked about making changes with money, but nothing actually ever changed? If so, tell me in the comments on YouTube or Spotify. Let me know what happened. I read every comment.
Now, let's get started with Lena and Mike. If you are in a relationship where you or your partner cover up spending to avoid big fights, or you get stressed out spending $150 on dinner even though you can easily afford it. If you lay awake at night anxious about money, I want to talk to you. I'm currently casting couples for the next season of the Money for Couples podcast. We only do this a few times a year and I want to hear from you. You can apply today at iwt.com/apply.
Being on the podcast is basically a 3 or 4 hour coaching session with me. Tons of past couples who have appeared on the podcast have said it is a pivotal moment for them to get on the same page. So, if you want my take on your unique financial situation, this is your chance. Apply right now at iwt.com/apply.
Lena, in your application, you wrote something that caught my eye. You said, "We are spending more than we're making. We're over $100,000 in debt. We talk about money. We make plans. And we never follow through."
Last year, um, we were on our way to paying down our debts. We just got hit with like a massive curveball, which was I got pregnant. And ever since that, all the debts that we were paying off and all these things that we were able to do kind of went down the drain and it became all about the baby to make sure that we were ready for when the baby got here and now that the baby's here to make sure that the baby's comfortable.
And why don't you think you follow through?
I feel like we talk about like what we need to do, but then individually it just stays in the talk. So we don't hold each other accountable.
Most of the things that I buy, the things that I purchase are things more so for comfort, like to make sure that our home is comfortable, that we're comfortable. Like I don't, I'm not very frugal. Comfort is not something that I'm going to cut back on. So for example, our groceries, we don't go buy groceries. Like I rather pay a premium and for them to bring the groceries here.
Okay, let me pause you, Mike. What do you think?
I don't want to fully blame the baby. I did notice that there was an inclination to us choosing, hey, what's the more efficient, what's the more comfortable way of getting this task done? Or the tendency that we have to choose comfort over, for lack of a better term, sacrifice, having pre-made meals, whether it's Uber Eats, a prepaid service instead of actually cooking.
Okay. What do you both... You've used the word comfort a lot. What does comfort mean to you?
To me, comfort is efficient use of time. For me, comfort is delegating tasks that I don't necessarily want to do.
Just don't want to do it. Cleaning. Um, honestly, just don't want to do it. Like, I prefer to spend that time working.
How do you know if you can afford to delegate or not?
When we're in the red, you can't.
Kind of. Um, yeah. So, I have like a set amount and for me that's my baseline. That's my zero. So, anything below that, like we need to do something. Emergency.
Didn't you tell me you're in $100,000 of debt?
Yeah. What we've done is kind of push like we'll get there. Like we will pay it off. We will get there.
So, we're kind of, I guess, future focused thinking that our solution is going to come.
How long have the two of you been in debt?
Oh, since we got married.
Were you in debt before you got married?
We were, I want to say maybe like not counting cars or anything like that. Just debt. Probably like 20, 40,000, which is...
20, 20, 40. Which number? We already know it's not 20.
So, I'm trying to think back. Um, it was probably, I would say it split a bit. Split the difference. It was probably 30, 30,000 that we were in debt.
Okay. So, you had tens of thousands of dollars of debt before the baby. Is it possible that the inclination to get in debt is not due solely to the baby?
No, no, no, no, no. So, I found you a few years ago, um, when we had already made like a whole bunch of the mistakes that you're like, don't make this mistake. Like we had already done that, right? Like spending too much on a wedding, like buying a house without really like looking at all these costs, all these different things that I was like, crap. Like I wish I would have known before, right? Because I was brought up in a home where you need to have a home, you need to buy a home, you need to have this big wedding. For me, like I would have eloped and that's not an issue, but we're Hispanic, we have big families, like everybody needs to come and celebrate. So kind of being pressured into, um, having this big wedding. And by the way, loved it. Like it's not a bad thing. But because of those things, we started accumulating like unnecessary debt. And then that's when I kind of found you on the Netflix show.
20,000 in credit card debt for the wedding.
Was there a point where you were like, "Wait, we can't do this." Or was it just like, "This is how it's done."
Yeah. Just this is how it's done.
Okay. Now, you mentioned that the two of you make a plan to get out of debt, but you don't follow through. Who is the one who makes the plan?
You initiate the conversations about money and debt.
Honestly, it's just me kind of telling Mike and then him just kind of agreeing.
Okay. What's the first thing you say when it comes to a money conversation?
Babe, we need to tighten up.
And he goes, "Yeah, that sounds good. You're right." And then what happens?
The depth of the discussion that we have is very surface level.
This idea that we might not be comfortable with what it actually entails to tighten up.
Mhm. Because if it meant that we need to start cooking, we need to start cleaning, we need to start grocery shopping, just for argument's sake, then that's something that I don't feel I would be comfortable with. And Lena would—Lena, please correct me if I'm wrong—would be comfortable with.
When you say you don't feel you would be comfortable with, do you mean I don't want to do that?
Mhm. Yeah.
I don't want to do it is just kind of like a choice. It's just kind of become, I want to say, like routine.
One of these days it's going to hit, but we're just not there yet.
Did you catch what Lena said at the end there? One of these days it's going to hit, but we're just not there yet. It's kind of a very passive way of talking about life, isn't it? They've been in debt for three years. They've amassed over $100,000 in consumer debt, and their plan is to wait for some future version of themselves to magically have the discipline that they don't have today.
What really struck me actually was how much they use the word comfort. Comfort to them means not cooking. Comfort means not cleaning. Comfort means paying a premium to have groceries delivered. Personally, I don't mind paying for convenience. I really love it. I pay for lots of things in my life that make my life easier. But if you're going to pay for convenience, you have to be able to afford it.
Now, here's the interesting part. If you go deeper, they have positioned comfort as the opposite of sacrifice. And who wants to sacrifice? Nobody. It's an almost unassailable position. That means that once you position the opposite of what you're doing as sacrifice or failure or even hard work, nobody wants to do that. You have already decided it's painful before you even start.
It's like when people see paying taxes as losing. They feel like they are losing, like taxation is theft. Personally, I see a huge tax bill as a sign that I was successful and that I get to live in a society where poor people and middle class people can benefit from roads and medicine. Think about how you position the things in life because it has a profound effect on how you experience that life.
For Lena and Mike, there's a huge middle ground between comfort and sacrifice. I think it's about making intentional choices based on what you can actually afford. So, reframing that view of the world is going to be critical for them. But first, let me show you a specific example of just how much they are relying on consumer comforts.
Two weeks ago, Mike comes up to me and, hey, I want an iPhone. What is it? 17, 18, whatever the heck.
And he's like, "What do you think? Is your phone working?" "Yeah." "Is it cracked?" "No." "So, what do you need it for?" Absolutely not. We could use that money for a lot of other things.
Wow. Lena, the voice of reason. Okay. And Mike, how did you take that?
Really? What is that? A 17 Pro Max?
How much did it cost? Why is everybody so quiet when I ask? It's just a number.
Because he didn't want to tell me. He hid it from me.
How much did it cost? What the hell's going on?
Why are you so hesitant to share the number?
Because I can't believe that that's how much it costs and I still grabbed it. It's crazy.
Because if somebody asked me, "Hey, what phone is that?" And I could tell them it's the 17.
Just hold up that phone again. I just want to take a look at that. Hold it right up tight to the camera. Wow. Beautiful, beautiful phone. Love it. iPhone 17 Pro Max. What are you feeling right now?
There is a degree of like affirmation, right, that I like.
If I'm being transparent here, once I have my mind set on something that I want, I'm very stubborn.
Lena, do you feel included in his $1,200 purchase?
Absolutely not. If anything, I feel even worse because I said no and you went and did it. Tried to convince me. I still said no and you went and you did it anyways.
If we zoom out and we look at the roles that each of you play when it comes to money in your relationship, almost like your chess pieces on the board. Lena, what role do you play?
Kind of like the organizer or the attempted organizer. Kind of motherly in an aspect. Um, I'm the one that has the budgets. I'm the one that, you know, tries to be as, uh, aware as possible.
All right. Mike, what role are you?
It's almost like she tells me kind of and I digest information. So, if I gave an analogy to a chess piece, it would probably be a pawn. There isn't a lot of back and forth. And that's because I know she's very well on top of our day-to-day.
But she's on top of the family's numbers. Is that what you're saying?
How much debt did she just say that your family has?
This is kind of a recurring pattern. Have you noticed there's like a very good explanation for certain things, like very rational reasons, and then we get to the end, I'm like, "Does it work?" You're like, "No, it totally does not work." What do you make of that?
I think you're seeing like our relationship kind of in this little capsule, um, where we always talk about the solutions and we're pretty smart people. We have good ideas, but then we always revert back to what's comfortable and how kind of we got together in our relationship. And I think that's what we're seeing, like just the cycle of like, oh no, this is how we fix it, but we go back to, oh no.
I just know that there's definitely something here that we're overlooking, like tremendously.
Okay. Well, that's—I appreciate that. That's why we're here.
There's a—we always have a blind spot in our own lives.
Always. So that's why getting help, whether it's from a therapist, a trainer, a coach, whoever, can be super helpful.
It's interesting when you can afford to buy lots of different things, what you actually choose to spend your money on. For example, I've tried these different shampoos. At a certain point, I was just like, most of these are all the same. I'm just getting the one from the drugstore. I was talking to a friend about what type of meat we buy. He was shocked that we didn't buy the most expensive meat. And I think the lesson that I have taken as I have made more money is just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's right for me.
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What was it like creating the conscious spending plan together?
Since I had all the numbers, it was basically like a copy and paste scenario.
And Mike, what did you do during this process?
There was some back and forth.
There was some discussion over the number.
There was definitely some pushback that she felt uncomfortable with. So, at that point, I'm like, "Okay, whatever the number is, that's the number, right? Happy wife, happy life."
I feel like there's a lot unspoken happening right now. Let's just tease it out. You guys are here. Let's talk about it. Mike, you've heard that phrase from where?
My grandfather, my uncle, the male role figures in my life.
Okay. And what does it mean?
Like giving into majority of arguments.
How long have you been doing this happy wife, happy life thing?
Two, three years, maybe a week.
Lena, how do you feel about this phrase, happy wife, happy life?
There's a lot of like little contradicting things when it comes to like our relationship and it's not every single facet. So, happy wife, happy life kind of applies to like, oh, hey babe, I want to hang out with the family, and he's like, "Yes, like let's go do what you want," or "Can you bring me ice cream?" Like he doesn't really like—he's very attentive. And in that sense, happy wife, happy life. Totally agree with it.
But when it comes to kind of like decision making or bigger things, for example, the iPhone or other examples that we've had in our relationship, sure, he doesn't push back, but then he goes behind my back. So, it's not—he's not trying to please me. He's not trying to make me happy.
Happy wife, happy life, right? I really hate this phrase. It is such a sitcom phrase. You've got the beleaguered husband who just wants his old ball and chain wife to get off his case and leave him alone. So, how does he do it? Just agree with the wife. After all, happy wife, happy life. Ten years later, when I ask him what he likes to do for himself, his eyes dart around frantically. Can't even remember what he likes to do. Then he whispers the only thing he can possibly imagine that might maybe make him happy: "I would like a man cave with a bar."
I hate this phrase. I don't simply want a happy wife. I want a happy relationship. I want a happy me and a happy wife and a happy family. You know, a lot of the phrases that we use around money are very intellectually lazy. "Money doesn't grow on trees." "You can't take it with you." And this wretched happy life one. These phrases are repeated over and over, passed down by people who don't even understand how money works.
Personally, I am on a mission to get people to understand the holistic part of money. Yeah, the tactical parts like saving and investing, but also the meaningful, almost spiritual aspects of what money represents in our lives.
In Lena and Mike's case, look at the situation. He's handed over all the financial responsibilities to her and their debt has only grown. But as long as he believes the simplistic happy wife, happy life phrase, he has wiped his hands clean of any responsibility. The crazy thing is he even goes behind her back and buys what he wants anyway. He did it with the iPhone. The irony is that the very men who say happy wife, happy life almost never have happy wives. How could they? Nobody is happy if you just throw up your arms and say, "Do whatever you want."
I am desperately wanting Americans and especially American men to grow a backbone around their finances. Now, we're about to dig into their conscious spending plan. I want to see some numbers. And if you want to follow along with your own numbers, download the free template at iwt.com/csp.
Let's take a look at what their numbers really look like. Let's take a look at the numbers. Lena, can you read off the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?
Assets: 845,000. Investments: 11,569. Savings: 16,370. Debt: 755,189. Total net worth: 117,417.
All right, let's continue on to the income. Gross monthly income: 16,583. 16,583. That means that combined your household makes $199,000 per year. By show of hands, who knew that number?
Lena's hand is up. Mike, his hand is not. 50%. Okay, that's right along my statistics. Out of curiosity, Mike, what did you think that you made?
Does it change the way you feel about money?
$50,000 more than you thought you make. We just rummaged around in the couch cushions and found 50k a year. Doesn't change the way you feel.
With that number, we're in this situation.
So, what does that make you think?
We would be in a much worse situation making less. Yeah, for sure.
Mhm. I want to point out for everybody, this happens frequently. People constantly say, "Hey, if I just made $20,000 more, I would feel good about money. I wouldn't feel so scarce." But it happens over and over again right in front of our eyes. Mike, you were just the perfect example. You're making $50,000 more than you thought. And it did not change a single thing for you about how you feel. The way we feel about money is highly uncorrelated with the amount in our bank.
Okay. What do you think of $199,000 as a household income, Lena? How would you describe that? Is it good, bad, high, low? What do you think?
Typically, I would say that that's a decent income. Um, we live in South Florida, which is very, very ridiculously expensive. So, it's one of those things where it looks good, but in the reality of where we live, it's not as much as you would think.
I agree. How much would you need to make in order to have a good income?
My goal is to get 250 a year and I think with that and just allocating and being smarter, um, I think that would be manageable.
I personally want over 300,000.
I like asking this question because the answers I get are like all over the map, but they're always in the same direction: more. Looking at the incomes, one person makes $9,583. Who's that?
Okay. Hey, Mike, what do you do for a living?
What the—Is this serious? Okay. And then Lena, what do you do?
I'm a licensed mental health counselor.
She likes to sit alone and I deal with numbers 12 hours of a day.
He comes on and turns his brain off.
I turn my brain off, to be honest, for me, and I shouldn't.
Mike, do you understand this stuff? The personal finance. I know accounting is different than personal finance. Do you understand personal finance?
Okay, that's a fair answer. And then Lena, you're a licensed mental health counselor.
Um, any of the stuff we're talking about today sound familiar to you?
The irony doesn't escape me.
Like, what would you tell a couple who is in a dire financial situation? They talk, but they never follow through.
They need an action plan. They need to sit together. They need to create accountability with each other.
All right. Want to do that?
Let's do it. All right. Let's keep moving along on the CSP. Lena, you mentioned you're the one on top of these numbers. You're managing them. Tell me your fixed cost number, please.
How can you be managing your numbers and on top of them if your fixed costs are at 98%?
The debt that we're in is just not manageable.
Yeah. But like you said, you have been managing it. You track it. You're the—I forget what you described it as. The sort of—
Organizer. But what value is the organizer if 98% of your take-home income is going to fixed costs?
Last year our fixed costs were still high, but it was at like a 70%, which was more manageable. Now with me not working as much because of having the baby, and this past year instead of organizer, I've been like a hole cover, right? Like I've been just covering all the holes and we've had to take out loans, which has brought us up to that number. And so like now it's become a level that, okay, this is not sustainable and something needs to get done.
Mike, where are you on this?
I think not having income for six out of the last 10 months, it's not ideal at all. You personally asked me and I feel horrible about it.
What changes did you make once Lena went part-time?
We didn't really make many changes. I think that's when we started leaning into, hey, are you comfortable? Yes or no? Can this situation be managed easier, faster? And we did not consider the cost implications of that.
So, we did take out loans to cover, um, like the—I want to say six months of no work. And that's how we've been able to kind of manage for this year. But then that's also why we're at 98%.
Can I point something out? When you have one manager, one money person in the relationship already, it's a big no-no. I talk about that in the new book. It's a big no-no for several reasons. You need both people to have skin in the game. One day, somebody might get hit by a bus, and on and on and on.
But you can also see the effects of having one money person when that money person, for example, becomes pregnant—which is all-encompassing—has to cut back on work for very rational reasons, makes perfect sense. But then that money person has a conflict of interest, as we can see here. Lena, you wanted to be comfortable, a word that you've both used. So what did you do? You actually started increasing your spending.
If there were two people working on the money, then the other manager might say, "Hey, wait a second. Wait a second. We need to really look at these numbers." But Mike, you were absent. You were the pawn. You were just doing what she told you. And now she's like, "I want more comfort. I want to spend more. We'll deal with it later." And Mike's like, "Happy wife, happy life. I don't even know what these numbers are." Cool. Accurate or not?
This is the problem having one person being the money manager. Okay. At 98% of fixed costs, you are broke. Did you know that?
Lena says yes. Mike is nodding as well. How long have you had 98% fixed costs?
All right, let's keep moving along on the CSP. We have $199,000 a year in income. We have 98% of fixed costs, which means you're spending more than you make every single month. Investments, how much are you contributing per month?
What is it like 10%, Mike?
Exactly. Your savings are at zero, but you do have $16,000 saved.
And finally, guilt-free spending is at -2%, which we know is not true. What is that number actually? Do you have any idea?
So, I would estimate 900 for food.
We're big food people. Um—
Oh, you are? Hold on. What the—
We eat in a lot. We order more than we go out.
Uh, order means what? Like Uber Eats?
Uber Eats. Guys, what the—That counts as eating out.
Eating out in Miami, we're talking like $300, $400 one night. That's what eating out is because that's a restaurant in Miami. That's a few drinks. That's appetizer, whatever. Versus eating in or like ordering in where there's not this whole experience to me is different. There's a distinction there. And we're not spending $400. We'll spend like anywhere between 50 and 100.
Lena, did you really think that was going to work on me?
I'm just saying that that's where my brain was at.
Are we going to get real about these numbers? We haven't even looked at the total amounts yet. Are we going to get real or not?
All right. Food is 900 a month. That's eating in and eating out.
Yeah, both ordering and going out.
I might get a little impulsive and buy something like on Amazon that's not necessary or he will get impulsive and buy more shoes.
I had at one point shoes in that category but I since have taken that—
Supplements. Okay. How much for those?
Anywhere from $150 to $200.
Yeah. I didn't even know we spent that much on it.
Self-care. Either of you?
No.
Self-care now for me, my self-care is my gym and myself.
The barber shop, like...
Barber shop, that...
How often do people get haircuts?
Once I do once a month, there's people that do weekly.
How much is your gym? You mentioned it a couple of times.
And like small miscellaneous stuff, but like the, for example, formula, the dog food, wipes, diapers.
I don't count that. I count that as fixed costs.
I'm struck by the lack of urgency that they have. We just went through some alarming numbers. 98% fixed costs, zero savings contributions. They are spending more than they make every single month. They say that things are bad, but their energy does not match the severity of the situation. When someone finally sees their actual financial reality, and it's bad, but they have no emotional reaction, that tells me they probably don't fully understand what those numbers mean. And it also tells me it hasn't gotten bad enough for them to actually truly change. Neither of those is good. Watch what happens now when I push them to confront reality.
If we take a look at your CSP, there's some very interesting numbers I want to draw your attention to. First off, your savings, $16,000. That represents 1.5 months of savings.
Meaning if something went wrong, you all can survive about a month and a half.
You have a baby. How do you feel about that?
That would be scary to me.
Mary, you know, people talk about being able to go to sleep fast or like sleep, whatever that phrase is. I couldn't sleep if I had a little baby and 1.5 months of savings with high costs. Next, I couldn't sleep if I was spending more than I make every single month. Let's take a look at your housing costs. What is going into the 98%? Well, $5,300, which is 34% of gross or 55% of take-home pay. What do you make of that?
You know, the overall guidance is you want to have your total housing costs below 28% of gross income. You have $199,000, so it could be feasible for you, but even still, you're at 34%. You could make it work. You could. The problem is each percentage you go up above that becomes increasingly risky. It's less money to put towards savings, towards investment, towards guilt-free spending. And then on top of that, we add in $3,000 per month for debt payments.
Talk to me about the debt. You've got $755,000 of debt. Can you break it down?
Okay. I see $555,000 for the mortgage. The next number is $100,000.
That one's the loans that we currently have.
So, those are personal loans that we took out.
What's the interest rate?
15.5. Okay. And then you have $50,000.
Uh, that would be my student loans.
And then what's the last $50,000?
What's your interest rate on your mortgage?
You know, can I just tell you something? Like if this were my CSP, there's only a few key numbers that I would care about.
Yeah. All the debt. All the debt. I would know the percentages, meaning the interest rates. You know, they have those scary movies where somebody goes into the bathroom and it's all steamed up and there's somebody who wrote something in lipstick. It's like, 'I'm going to kill you.' That's not what my mirror would say. My mirror would say 555,000 at 6.625%. Every morning I would be like, ah. I would know those numbers. Next up, I'll show you the other numbers I would know. I would know this number, 98%.
Because that is the number that I care about right now. It is drowning me.
And Mike, you're silent, which is actually a good metaphor for your presence when it comes to money in your relationship. Right.
Where's that? I didn't see that in the debt.
Oh, we need to add that. Mine is 10,000.
Mine is, I think, 25, ballparking.
What kind of cars do you both drive?
2021.
Then I have a Tesla Model 3, 2022.
Do you know your debt payoff date?
Like late 2027, I believe.
I don't think so. I think it's past that.
Probably past that. Okay, I'll check.
The cars themselves will take over four years. You're paying almost $5,000 in interest for the cars. Your personal loan will take three and a half years. You're paying $30,000 in interest. Your student loans, I believe you're not paying at least one, maybe both.
I'm not paying it. I don't have to.
Yeah. Eventually, but I'm hoping that it's so far in the future that we're in a better position to pay it off.
How would you be in a better position specifically?
Paying down the debts and our CSP would look different.
The amount you're paying on the personal loan, are you paying the minimum?
I think you guys have put yourself in a very tough position. What do you both think about the numbers?
We need to fix it. I think that they reflect just like poor management.
Mhm. Who's poor management?
And what do you feel looking at the numbers, Lena?
Doesn't feel great. Um, I'll also say that it kind of surprises me in the sense that it looks worse than what I feel.
To me, it looks worse than what I feel. And it's always because I kind of have like this sense of optimism, I don't know, delusion that we're going to be okay.
Like no matter what, we're going to be okay. And I think sometimes that feeling or that mentality helps me in a lot of situations and sometimes it can definitely hinder me in some.
Is it helping or hindering you now?
Uh, right now when it comes to our finances, I think it's hurting.
Okay. What's a different way to approach your money if not unbounded optimism?
More sense of like urgency.
Mhm. Is there currently any urgency around your money?
Yes, but I don't feel it's as high as it should be.
What's the example of a sense of urgency?
Like we need to make these changes and act on them now.
If that were true, which I believe you, then isn't it feasible that you could dramatically cut your costs?
Oh, so what are we doing here?
I can definitely cut costs. It's just very difficult if I don't have my teammate on the same page with me.
The happy wife, happy life guy.
Okay. So tell them what you want.
I want a teammate. I want somebody to help. I want somebody that sees the numbers, worries about them just as much as I do and puts, you know, an action plan together with me.
I failed her in that aspect.
I can't excuse myself with the whole idea of like, oh, I work with numbers on an everyday basis and therefore I don't want to. No, this is our life that we're talking about here and not just ours or her life. So I hear you.
What do you think of these numbers when you see them?
Because it's a presentation of the runway we have and if we're a plane, we're about to crash.
We don't have enough time to take off.
And what do you feel when you look at those numbers right now?
If you looked at my heart rate, beating pretty fast.
Yeah. Tell me what's going on. What are you feeling?
Like something needs to change like yesterday.
Are you feeling alarmed, worried, embarrassed?
Because I let down my partner.
Okay. Do you feel disappointed in Lena?
No.
Quite the contrary, a sense of gratitude because she's had to take a lot. And I know that there is a level of control that she enjoys and she likes to have. But sitting back and digesting everything,
As we're talking, it's almost like I'm doing a disservice in allowing her to do that.
She's been trying to tell you, right?
Why have you not listened?
