What do you think about this debt? It's terrible. It's frustrating and sad and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight.
I'm angry at Michael. I'm angry at myself. My relationship with money is not a good relationship. He's at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can't. I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life. I don't want to work till I'm 75. I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives. At this age, I thought we'd already be there.
Do you believe that you'll die with your debt?
It's going to be a stretch. There was a time one time where I considered taking my purse and my keys and walking out. I'm at my wit's end. I don't want to keep doing this.
Imagine making great money but still being in debt. Where's the money going? Why are we in this situation? Why do we feel trapped by our debt? Today, we're going to dive into a story that is very familiar for millions of couples. High income, high stress, and no real plan. Listen to this line from the application. He has run up credit cards buying electronics. He has little to no retirement saved and we make way too much to be so stressed about money. I do not know how much longer I can keep doing this. When I see phrases like, I don't know how much longer I can keep doing this, that is a sign the stakes are very high. Today I'm speaking with Immani, 52 years old, and Michael, who is 65. They've been married for 24 years, but they have not spent a single one of those years aligned about money.
What's interesting is that they've worked with money coaches in the past. Yet, they keep finding themselves stuck in the same cycle. Michael overspending and avoiding and Immani trying to take control of their finances. I'm about to look at their numbers, but first, I want to hear from you. When was the last time you were not on the same page with your partner? And tell me the specifics. I want to see them in the comments. I read everyone. Was it not agreeing where to eat out or how much you should keep in your checking account? Let me know in the comments the last time you were not on the same page with your finances. Now, I'm looking at their conscious spending plan, which breaks down their key numbers, including their net worth, income, and where they spend their money. It's the same tool I use in every episode. Assets, $63,315. Investments, $770,000. Keep in mind, Michael is 65 years old, already at retirement age. Savings, $8,523. Debt, $61,000. And over $100,000 of that debt is high-interest debt. Net worth $780,000. All of this is raising a lot of questions. So, let's get started with Immi and Michael.
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Immani, you mentioned in your application that you've been married for 24 years and you said something that really caught my eye. You said, "I want to separate our finances. In fact, I am so upset that I suggested we combine them four years ago." Why do you feel that way?
I feel like we spoke better or related better when the finances weren't combined. I feel like we are both like all in the account all the time. Like it'll be like, "Well, why is there a $7.95 charge?" And he'll ask me, "Well, did you go to the spa?" You know what I mean? Like part of it is taking away the autonomy of the other person. And so it feels like I'm being I'm monitoring an adult. That's not fair for me to try to be his mother. Originally, we did have separate accounts and then we had a joint account for bills.
About 4 years ago, I was like, we just need all the paychecks to go into one account and that way we can monitor and get a control over our finances. And then what I saw was out of control and so it stressed me out.
Wow. Okay. I I have lots to unpack there. Michael, what's your reaction to what just said?
It seemed to be less complicated when they were separate because it was always like, well, I know certain things have to be taken care of, so I can't spend somewhere else.
So, I had to make sure that the money was there. When it became a joint account, it's like, well, yeah, I can go ahead and buy this and buy that because there's money in the account.
Would you say that when you combined your accounts that the spending got sloppy?
Very very sloppy. Yeah, it did. It did.
Okay. So, I mean, just to ask the obvious question, why don't you just separate it?
We we've we've discussed that uh separating it and and but we didn't come up with a concrete plan as far as when we're going to do it, how we're going to do it.
Right. Okay. Yeah. All right. So, it's still on the table to separate your finances.
Yeah. But but I mean, you know, when you when you talk about what people when you hear about marriages, right, it's like it's supposed to be a coming together and you're supposed to have things together and and I have friends who have joint accounts and everything goes well and with us Yeah. It is not.
Yeah. And and of course, you know, if you were to separate your finances, I suspect things would not magically fix themselves. I suspect it would open up a whole new can of worms because a lot of ways it's a symptom probably. We'll figure that out a little bit more. So, Immani, you mentioned that sometimes Michael will say he's looking at the expenses. He goes, "Did you go to the spa?" What is the next sentence after that?
You'll say, "Yes, I went to the spa." Right. Mhm. And then what does he say?
Oh, so it's just a question like, "Hey, did you go to the spa? Did you buy this thing?" That's it.
Yeah. And it usually comes when I'm asking him about did you go to Best Buy again?
Oh. Oh, okay. Let me flip that then. So, you asked, "Did you go to Best Buy?" And then Michael, what do you say to that?
I said, "Yeah, I went to Best Buy."
Okay. And then And I kind of leave it there. Okay. And then how do you respond? Why am I doing this? Just have the conversation in front of me. Go ahead, Emani. What's this? What's this 152 at Best Buy?
I went to Best Buy to uh buy some uh SSD drives for my computer.
Did you need more SSD drives?
Um I needed one with more capacity, so I bought one that was on sale and I got a bigger
But don't you have like 10?
Yes, I do. Most of them are filled up with uh with different documents and data. So yeah,
but that wasn't in the budget.
Yeah, I know. But um I I I'll get the money back in there.
How are you going to get the money back in it? The book, the budget is based on the budget. Yeah. You can't put the money back.
I'll make sure it gets packed.
Okay. Whoa. Okay. That was quite interesting. What just happened in that conversation, Michael?
Uh, I would say that I probably deflected.
Uh, I said that I was going to make sure the money get back into the account, but I didn't tell the money how it was going to get back into the account.
I agree. And did you actually have a plan for how to get the money back in the account?
I had a good range of dates that I could put the money back.
Okay. And did the money get put back in the account?
What? Right. That doesn't sound like a plan to me.
All right. All right. Fine. And then um what else do you notice about the conversation? The chess pieces. What was each person's role in that conversation?
I felt like I was uh under the microscope.
Hm. That's an interesting metaphor. So, if you're under a microscope, then what is Immani?
Oh, wow. That's powerful. Okay. So, you're you have the investigator and the investigated in that example, right? Okay. All right. Thank you very much, Anmani. How about you? Zoom up. Analyze it.
Uh for me it's frustration with Michael spending particularly at Best Buy, right? And he told me that he needed more of something he already had. So it was my frustration at Michael for buying something that he already has multiples of that I don't see the need for that wasn't in the budget. Here we go again buying things in excess. And to me, there's no such thing as putting money back.
Okay. What would you say each person's role was?
Um, I felt like the the mama, the the parent, honestly, or the the one who watches over the budget, and then you have Michael in the role of I'mma get what I want, you know? I'mma spend and get what I want because it's I make money and I'm going to spend it.
Is that true? I mean, he does make money.
So, if he's making money, just out of curiosity, can he spend it on an SSD drive?
Sure, he could spend it on.
But does he need 12 SSD drives?
I don't know. I I I don't particularly care either.
I'm just I I'm asking is this a joint issue? Like, is it coming from joint money or is it an individual issue? In which case, if he wants to spend it on garbage, he could spend it on garbage. As far as I'm concerned, what do you think?
It's a joint. In my mind, it's a joint, right? because we decided that we would each take a certain amount of cash out of the the account and he takes the cash out and spends the money out of the account.
Okay, I got you. Can I can I tell you what I observed from your conversation which I thought was very revealing. Um so many things happened in like 60 seconds. That's why I love seeing the actual conversations. First off, the fact that Immani, you were like, "What's this charge?" Like already red flag number one for me that one partner is looking over the other's shoulder. Not blaming you at all. I know that it happens in reverse as well. But if one person has to spend money unexpectedly from the joint account, it's their responsibility to actually bring it up. So that's already kind of like, hm, that's an interesting thing. Next up, uh, it kind of turned into like some kind of inspector gadget type of like Immi became the SSD investigator, you know, are you sure? How many terabytes are we talking? I was like, I don't really think that's what we were going for here, you know? I I I get the sense maybe like I don't think you're an SSD investigator. And and then we had Michael who quickly was kind of like like you could kind of see the tone. Michael, it was a bit of like a a young boy who's got caught doing something and it was like, you know, yeah, I did go there. No further explanation. Just going to stop and hope that nobody pays attention and then I'll put the money back. What's that? Again, it's a very boyish sort of answer. You know what I mean? We're talking about a grown man here.
Basically, that's how our our our conversations kind of go.
Yeah. I know, right? That's why I'm here.
Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's why we're here, too, because it's like the same conversation.
What we just saw play out was the parent child dynamic, which in my opinion is one of the most toxic patterns in a relationship around money. In my new book, Money for Couples, I break down exactly why it is so toxic. You know, your partner is not a child. Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult. The parent child dynamic also creates resentment on both sides. The parent feels burdened and exhausted. The child feels controlled and infantilized. And this dynamic creates ripple effects. The dynamic almost never stays just in the financial realm. It seeps into other parts of the relationship. It erodes trust and intimacy. I even call it sexual kryptonite because it's very difficult to feel attracted to your partner when you feel like you are parenting them. If you cannot get on the same page with money, I recommend you pick up a copy of Money for Couples and use the word for word scripts in the book. It's also available as an audio book. But let's zoom out. Now, this isn't just about roles or dynamics. There's also real numbers to consider. Michael is 65. They've amassed $600,000 in total debt. And a 100K of that, over 100K, is consumer debt like credit cards, personal loans, car loans. That type of debt typically carries higher interest rates, which means it can really snowball fast. We're going to untangle the specifics of their debt when we get to their conscious spending plan. But here's what I can already see. Immi has a strong need for control. It's actually no surprise that she's frustrated, maybe even fed up. Honestly, if I were in her situation, I would want control, and I would be angry, too. What's more surprising is that this debt is something she's been trying to get control over for years. She's worked with several money coaches and yet nothing has changed. So, what happened? Why didn't those approaches work? We're going to find out right after this.
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Okay. I understand that you have spoken to money coaches in the past. What was your experience with them?
You know, we we got, you know, a a system um like an Excel file and a system of, you know, set these things up, but the work to do to maintain them. I felt like I was doing most of the getting that done. Um, we were supposed to set up like money dates, right? Like times where we come together and go over the finances. And the few times we did it, it was me at the computer, Michael sitting on the bed or on the counter or on the couch and, you know, him looking up saying, "What you need?" Right? As opposed to us both being engaged and me going through numbers and then getting frustrated. So part of it is, you know, I'll say, "Michael, where are your numbers? We need to we need to meet and go over budget." I'mma get the numbers. Yeah. I am waiting for the numbers for the last eight weeks. I, you know, until we did the conscious spending plan, I have been waiting on the numbers for two months.
This is a general pattern at home. Emani, like you're driving things at home and he's you're pulling him along. Michael, what do you think?
Um, I would say that I was more reactive than proactive and I don't know that we ever set any rules engagement on how we're going to, you know, attack. Once we went through the counseling assessment, we never had any rules. So, without having any rules, if we didn't do something, a rule was broken, there were no consequences.
That's interesting. There were no consequences if the rules were bro. What would be an example of a rule being broken?
Rule be like, "Okay, we're going to meet Wednesday at 6 PM and we're going to talk about how we're tracking our budget."
Yeah. Are you generally reactive in life versus being proactive?
I would say in my professional life, uh I can't be I can't be uh reactive. I had to be proactive. When I'm at home, I kind of decompress and I don't have those uh same rules or restraints.
Okay. And Imani might find it surprising.
I don't think I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life.
Tell me more. Immani's nodding. Tell me more, Michael. That's quite an admission.
Just It's kind of like I have a vision or I have an idea and I just kind of do it.
There's no step where I need to do this step first and then I need to do this step second or I need to do this step third. In my professional life, I do that. In my personal life, absolutely not.
Okay. And how about for you?
I'm proactive everywhere.
Okay. All right. Would you agree with that, Michael?
Yes, definitely. With that said, it's kind of at the point where, you know, I have to be proactive. I got to take action.
Uh either she's going to say, "Oh, you know, that's it. I had enough." Or she's going to say or she's just gonna turn out and do her own thing.
24 years married. Yeah. Money. Would you agree the stakes are pretty high?
I can't keep doing this. I refuse because, you know, he's at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can't because I cannot financially do all of this by myself, right? And I'm at the age there's a there's a pretty significant age difference between us. I'm at the age where I want to look at early retirement. Like he's already at retirement. Like I want to look at early retirement. I don't want to work till I'm 75. I I don't I don't want to do that. Um and I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives. And at this age I thought we'd already be there, right? Like I feel like I feel like everything I'm behind. Like we're behind because you know I know you're not supposed to look at other people and other people's lives. But we know too much to be in this situation. Like this is just dumb and frustrating and I kick myself and I'm mad at myself because I feel like the loss of control got us here. Like growing up I was so I was known to be so cheap that I pinched the copper off a penny. That's what my mama used to say, right? Like I knew where everything was. I never went into debt and all of that stuff. And then, you know, the last several years it's just been out of control. And I just I'm so sad about it.
Okay. Well, are you angry?
I'm angry at Michael. I'm angry at myself.
Can I ask like the tough question here? What makes both of you think that this time will be any different?
I I'm hopeful that it'll be different because Michael has a tendency to listen to the other person advice, right? If it comes from me, I can say the exact same things that you're going to say, but he's not going to hear them. If you say them, he'll hear them. I'm And Michael, please, I'm not trying to be like mean, but that that's how it feels to me. It's like if the internet says it or if you see it in a book, it could be the same thing that I already said.
Mhm. Who the listening to the people on the Have you seen the comments I get? The first thing I do is I go, "Whatever you said, I'm doing the opposite of that." Michael listens to the internet. I take your point. Michael, why is that? You're nodding your head. Why is that, man?
That's a tough one. You know, I I spent some time in the armed forces. I spent a lot of time in the armed forces for a long time. My life was very regimented. I knew I was going to be all the time, when, where, how, all of that. When I got out, that started to slip a little bit where it's like, you know, I've been living this rigid life. And so now I have some some levity to kind of go to the left or to the right going, "Yeah, we we tried that or and that didn't work. We tried this and this didn't work." So to your point, what's what's going to be different this time? For me, what's different this time? I see the effect on what this is having on the money as far as our finances.
I can see that she's really stressed out about it.
Michael, do you ask Imani for advice on money? Ever?
I ask her for advice. I don't think so.
Do you ever ask her for advice?
No. I can only speak for myself on this. my relationship with money has been. It's not a good relationship. It was something that was never discussed when I was growing up. Uh even when I was in the military and I was making a steady income, it it's just something that there was no coaching, no learning on. So, it just kind of carried over from that after I got out of the military.
Take me back. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?
Would you say your family was middle class, upper middle, lower middle? What would you describe it as?
I would say lower middle.
I was raised mostly by my uh my grandmother and I I didn't have a a warrant for anything.
Even though money wasn't discussed, I always had what I needed when I needed it.
Uh when did you go into the military?
Okay. So, straight out of high school, you went to the military.
Mhm. I actually pre-inlisted before I graduated from high school. Uh I knew in my heart of hearts where I grew up at that I wasn't going to stay. If I would have stayed there two years, three years, I would got caught up in drugs and I would have been dead.
Really? What part of the country, if you don't mind my asking?
All right. Mhm. And did you have other family members who had been in the military?
Yes. My uncle uh he served in the uh in the Navy.
Okay, cool. So you signed up, you go in. What was your first impression when you got there?
And the first time that I had ever had uh broccoli.
I like, "Oh, this is a neat food. I never had this before." It was uh it was eye opening for me.
Mhm. I bet. Um because in any military person in basic military training, you you're in training, basic training with people from all over the world, all different aspects of life. old. What what surprised you the most in those first few weeks?
The the rigor and the discipline during my career in military. Everything was everything was very regimented. Nothing could get out of control or you would be uh disciplined for it. It was very regimented. Uh you knew where you're going to be, when you're going to be there, how long you're going to be there, and it was like clockwork. So that was very refreshing.
Wow. What did you love about it?
I didn't have to worry about uh where I was going to live, what I was going to eat. Mhm. What I what I was going to put on if I had money. I know I was going to get paid every two weeks. Regardless of of the situation. So, in a way that it's kind of like being uh I won't say babysitted cuz believe you me being in the military is nothing like being babysitted, but there were things that I didn't have to worry about that my civilian counterparts have to worry about.
Right. And then there was the opportunity to uh to get educated, travel Uhhuh. and uh make money as I progressed through the ranks. Okay. And did you uh plan to stay for a long time?
I did not. I did uh my my plan was to do 48 years, save my money and then go to college. But I got I got to travel live uh in different parts of the country and live in different parts of the world. And uh before I was 30 years old, I had lived in three different foreign countries.
Mhm. U so I saw a lot of the world. You see it with the money?
No. No. This was before we met. This is when I was in the military. Uh at the 8 years I was sold uh I I was in for the long ball.
How long did you stay in total?
I stayed in uh 20 years and 21 days.
Wa is is there something about 20 years?
Uh that is when you're eligible during my period to uh to retire with full retirement from the military.
Great. Okay. Great. How long ago did you retire?
A whole different lifetime ago. Wow. Right. No kidding. What did you do after you retired?
I went into uh I went into manufacturing. Uh basically the same uh same skills and training that I got in the military that transferred over to uh uh to civilian sector and I went into manufacturing and I have been in manufacturing since 1998.
Wow. What what do you think about the fact that as a civilian you didn't have that structure that you used to have in the military?
Uh it's interesting that you ask that because I I remember my first civilian job and I won't mention the company but I had a manager uh when he did my performance review. He said that his frustration with me was that I I work very well off a list. And I was like wait what?
Like it's like a fish being told you swim in water. You're like huh? Right.
I was like wait I was like wait what? Uh, and basically what he was trying to tell me is I need to be more uh, I guess creative, innovative, and and I got it.
Create. Would Would there be another word there? He needed you to be more Maybe it starts with a P. P R O P R O proactive.
Yeah. What do you think? I think so. Yeah. What do you say?
I agree. I mean, I I think that that is exactly right that he I could see him coming out being listless list driven, but he talks a lot about, you know, he had to be so regimented when he was in the military and out of these out no structure, right? Like it's just a hot mess express.
What What did you do with the money that you made in the military?
Uh I will tell you that I had a good time. Mhm. Uh I did buy a couple of vehicles. Uh, right after she uh would give birth, I go buy another vehicle. This was after I got out the military.
So, you had two sons and then you're like, I'm going to go buy a car.
Okay. Nothing that was planned. Nothing that was discussed. What did you just like walk in and just buy it that day?
