Well, they say you don't talk about money in Germany, but that would be rather unfortunate in the next few moments, because our guest today is the head of Deutsche Bank, Christian Sewing. And a warm welcome to the Money Talk at Bild.
Yes, Mr. Sewing, you joined Deutsche Bank in 1989, completed your banking apprenticeship in Bielefeld back then, and many, many years later you became CEO — eight and a half years in this position by now. And I would say you really turned the bank around, from a loss to a decent return. How can one achieve that with Germany?
Well, to be fair, one has to say that Germany is certainly more complex than Deutsche Bank. More difficult — well, I won't say more difficult, but more complex. But it is a fair question. I believe turning and transforming Deutsche Bank always required three things for me.
We knew in 2018 what the bank's strengths were, what its weaknesses were, and we rigorously parted ways with Deutsche Bank's weaknesses. If we are not competitive in individual areas, then we should not keep investing in those areas. You have to concentrate on where you are strong. So focus was a very important component.
Number two: you need the right team. As a CEO, you cannot achieve that alone. You really need a team that works together, that collaborates, and that is also willing to go through — as certainly back in 2018 was foreseeable — four or five difficult years. And the third thing is that you communicate this plan, this focus, this strategy — what I meant under the first point — clearly and repeatedly. You have to bring 90,000, 100,000 people along. And I believe that is something I also always relate to Germany.
I believe that we in Germany can, precisely through clear communication and a clear strategy, explain to people what we would have to do differently and why reforms are needed. I do not believe that this country is simply incapable of reform. I believe we can reform this country, but it requires clear communication and also honestly communicating the painful news that comes with it — and then also giving the outlook that it is worth fighting for.
And with this focus, this communication, and also the discipline to follow through, we turned Deutsche Bank around. But again, I believe it is less complex than Germany.
Germany and German politics are covered very critically, especially by us. I would like to — you said what one has to part with and how to focus and so on. There is a statement from you that you believe AI could really lead German industry back to significant growth. Could you translate for us how that happens? Because right now the feeling is rather that AI costs jobs. Your positive picture of growth through AI for German industry.
Yes, I think that in the AI platform space we probably cannot catch up with the Americans or the Chinese anymore. We do have to think about whether we should build our own — there is always this famous word — sovereign model. There is a lot to be said for that, also given the overall geopolitical situation. But I believe that we have a huge opportunity, especially in the field of industrial artificial intelligence. And why do I say that?
We probably have in Europe, and especially in Germany, the companies in industrial manufacturing, in industrial production, that have the best track record — the best machines, the best data, the best automation. If we manage to pool the data that sits there, from the smallest SME to the large corporation, and to think about what efficiencies we can extract from it, then we have an incredible opportunity. I just came from a meeting this morning where there was a specialist from the transport industry. If you imagine how, through AI, we can significantly reduce empty runs in cargo and transport, so that capacity utilization in transport rises from 30 or 40 percent to 60 or 70 percent, that brings efficiency and productivity gains that we can capture right now because we have this data.
For that, of course, we also need the appropriate regulations. We also have to look at Brussels a bit. But I believe one should not only see AI negatively, but rather where our strengths lie. And that brings me back to the first question, Deutsche Bank. I always said: where are our strengths? That is where we must focus. It usually does not make sense for us to build the next large language model; rather, it makes sense for us to apply AI in industry. That is where we can lead and win.
How much of your own job is replaceable by AI? What is automatable in the CEO position at Deutsche Bank?
Hard to say in percentages. But I would like to answer the question a bit differently. If we do not use AI in Deutsche Bank's executive floor, I cannot demand that the entire Deutsche Bank engage with it. I believe AI is a leadership task. AI is a task where we can show the organization that it holds enormous opportunities for us and not just risks. And that is why I can tell you that we try to work with AI as much as possible in our daily doing. Some do it more successfully than others. One also has to overcome one's own inner resistance, a bit of fear of the system. And I believe we have come reasonably far, but honestly — we all do something in our professional lives where we say, 'Oh, I did this completely differently six months ago, and now I solve it this way.'
Yes, just the way you manage your emails, for example. Just the way you can train your own system: what is important, what is less important? There is an enormous focus on reducing work in your own email system. And the moment you do that, you naturally have an enormous opportunity to pass on your experience to others. But the daily routine — when you come in in the morning, what you focus on — has been significantly simplified for me by AI.
Is there already an avatar of you that answers the emails?
No, that does not exist yet. There was once another avatar that we created for fun. It does not exist yet, but yes — in a certain way, we will certainly think in that direction at some point.
You are a co-founder of the 'Made for Germany' initiative. A great success so far. I wonder: which specific investment has actually come about through it that would not have happened without the initiative? Do you have an example for us?
I believe two things have happened. First, 'Made for Germany' is of course always reduced to the 850 billion euros. That is great. Yes, we are honestly — we should say so — proud that we achieved that. By the way, over 200 billion has already flowed. That also shows something is happening in Germany.
What is talked about less is that the close cooperation between business and politics has become significantly tighter. And Ms. Horn, if we think back to the reform program that I believe was announced at the end of June, beginning of July — the 34 points — some of them are contained in the ten working groups we founded out of Made for Germany, and where we have repeatedly spoken with one ministry or another. They can be found there. That means we are not only trying to lobby quantitatively, but to lobby qualitatively for reforms and to help shape those reforms. The second point is: what is truly new? I believe with Made for Germany we have achieved that foreign investors have paid even more attention to Germany. We certainly had our own contacts, but also the fact that large foreign investors saw that German companies are willing to invest a substantial three-digit billion amount over the next three years. That naturally attracts attention, and that is why I simply believe the interest of foreign countries in Germany has grown even greater through Made for Germany. Reform in the sense of growth figures is also a completely different tune, so to speak, than it is usually discussed in terms of savings. So I am pleased about that, because it has a positive spin at that point.
We were just talking about investments. Speaking of which, would you still invest in the German automotive industry?
You know? I believe that has to be answered very, very carefully — carefully so that one does not make a hasty decision. Just imagine the question had been asked about Deutsche Bank in 2018, in the situation Deutsche Bank was in. Now I am not comparing the situation of the automotive industry with Deutsche Bank in 2018 at all, but we were in a rather difficult position, which you can also say about the automotive industry now.
Deutsche Bank was turned around — whether you measure that by the share price, by the so-called CDS spreads, or by the rating — and it paid off to invest. I am firmly convinced that if we create the framework conditions, and if of course the automotive companies also work on the things they probably have to work on — and it is becoming clear what they want to work on — then the product 'automobile from Germany' will continue to be a product that is absolutely in demand. It also depends here on us creating the right overall framework conditions for the industry, but of course each company must also transform itself. And I am very confident that this is understood and that it is being implemented. And therefore, for God's sake, we should not do one thing — we also discussed this this morning — that we write off an industry that is currently facing a structural challenge. I believe we still have strong potential there.
Will things change? Probably yes, and one will have to place value on other things in the automotive industry in the long run. But I believe that is what management is there for — to recognize that.
May I come back to the topic of trust in Germany and investment, this time against the backdrop of the political situation — the elections in Saxony-Anhalt, what is happening here in Berlin right now, and also the scandal around August Hanning. How dangerous do you consider this constellation when it comes to investment and trust in Germany?
I was very clear about that. This is a considerable risk for Germany, and it should not be played down. Whether it is Saxony-Anhalt with regard to the AfD, or the events here in Berlin — this is anything but conducive to the economy, and anything but investment-friendly.
And I can tell you, Ms. Horn, that just in the last two weeks, after the recent state elections — Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Berlin — and especially after the discussion of the possible expropriation in Berlin, many foreign investors called and asked what this means for Germany as a whole. You cannot expect a foreign investor to immediately distinguish between a state government and Germany as a whole. Germany as a whole is what is seen, and I find that understandable from the investor's perspective. And that is why this development is extremely dangerous. And all the more we must ensure that, from the democratic center, we set reforms, reforms, reforms for growth. That is the only answer we have to the far-right and far-left extremists in this country.
Are you glad that you do not live in the capital right now?
Well, you know, there too I go back to — running away from the problem makes no sense at all. Otherwise I would probably have been glad in 2018 not to take over Deutsche Bank. I wanted to do it. I had the feeling that I knew where the problems in the bank lay. No, not at all. But I do see this very critically, and that is why I believe that in my position I must voice the things I can back with facts. And that is why I speak out clearly about this or that situation in Berlin, and it is simply not beneficial for Germany as a whole. Nevertheless, I am happy to be in Berlin.
That sounds good to begin with. We are too, and voluntarily. Tell me, I would like to come back to the positive and to the future. You have four children. In which sectors would you recommend they invest — provided they have not already done so?
Well, I was very lucky. My father was self-employed and had a small printing shop, and back then it was naturally expected that one's own child would join the company. And I had tremendous — not tremendous luck, I was lucky with my parents anyway — but my father never put on any pressure. He said, 'You do whatever you enjoy most.' And that is the principle I also follow with my children. And I can tell you that the two who are in university, or almost finished with university, are interested in the financial industry, but I believe neither of them wants to work in it. So they do something else. But they do ask me how they should invest their money. I do advise them on how to invest money, but I place great value on them gaining their own experience and feeling that they can explore this freedom themselves. There are of course certain limits where I say, well, we should draw a line there. But I believe this personal experience, which I was allowed to have myself, shapes one the most. And if you then communicate a lot — and I believe we do — then, yes, it turns out quite well.
But I have to take the opportunity. So, how do I invest money for my grandchildren so that they do well?
Yes, definitely — if I may say so — not one-sidedly and not just in a savings account. That is Germany's problem. I would say that if you look at the long-term developments, investing in securities is the right thing. It must be broadly diversified. In my view, you should not become dependent on a particular stock or a particular sector. We just talked about two or three sectors that have developed completely differently. So diversification, risk spreading, is enormously important. But this fear of stocks — we Germans need to get over that, because the performance of stocks over the last 30 or 40 years is by far the best S-Class you can choose. And it will continue to be that way going forward.
Would I pass on stocks? Definitely. I would have a good share of stocks in my portfolio.
Yes, a few quick questions about money, everyday money. Mr. Sewing, we are all amazed by prices — bread, fruit, eggs — so much has become so much more expensive. When was the last time you looked at a price and said, 'Wow, that costs that much now?'
That happens to me often. And often because — to be fair, it would be a lie — I do not shop every day. But I do try to go to a fruit shop now and then, especially on weekends. And I am surprised by that, and we also talk about it openly. My older children were just visiting me this weekend, and we talked about prices at the checkout — what that means for a normal family with two or three children going there. And that makes me aware of it. But certainly I do not experience this development the way most others do, who bear the brunt of it every day. And now, fortunately, I am also in a position where I may not feel it as much, but I do notice it.
When did you last pay in cash?
That was at the aforementioned fruit shop.
Okay. Are you by nature — not by virtue of your position — rather stingy or rather generous?
Well, I am said to be generous with others and very, very careful with myself in the sense of 'that's enough.'
Are you expected to always leave a lot of tips because you are the head of Deutsche Bank?
Oh, I think that is all overrated. I do not believe at all that when I go somewhere, so many people recognize me. And that is also the nicest thing — maybe after this interview it will be a bit different — but choosing 10, 12, or 15 percent... But oh goodness, honestly, when I feel comfortable, I always leave between 10 and 15 percent. By the way, I am very bad at it when I did not enjoy it, because I really think these people earn good money — to push it down to zero, I cannot do that. Even though I sometimes say I should give honest feedback, I am bad at that.
I find that incredibly hard too. Do you remember your first self-earned money?
