Cancer Decoded: Stephen A. Smith Talks to Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong About His Mother's Cancer Journey

Welcome in everybody. This is Cancer Decoded on Two-Way. Very glad to have you here for our second episode joined with my colleague, co-host and our leader Dr. Pat Zun. Dr., welcome back. Our guest tonight, Stephen A. Smith, an important cultural, political, and historical figure, but also someone who we're extremely happy to have here. Dr., welcome in. I want to ask you first what the reaction has been to the first episode in your world.

Okay, our guest tonight Stephen A. Smith, a singular voice in America on sports, culture, politics, life and tragically for him and his family on cancer as well. Mr. Smith, really grateful to you for making time. I know this is a tough topic for you, but I also know from things you've said in the past that how important you feel it is, how much responsibility you feel to help others, and we're grateful to you for that and for joining us tonight. And I'm just going to turn it over to Dr. Patrick to chat with you for a little bit. And again, really grateful to you for being part of it. Thank you.

Good to see you, Mark. How you doing, Doc?

Well, Mark Walters, owner of the Dodgers now owning the Los Angeles Lakers, is being priced at $10.1 billion. That was obviously an astronomical figure. It was eye popping, no mistake about it. You have to remember just a few years ago, about a decade ago or so, you had Steve Ballmer purchased the Los Angeles Clippers for $2 billion. And now here we are a decade later and this is five times that much. I think it's a testament to how much the game of basketball has grown, what a global iconic brand the NBA is, how popular it is, what it has established for itself. You have to give Commissioner Adam Silver, the owners, of course the players an abundance of credit, but there's a fan base out there. And unlike the NFL to a lesser degree than baseball, basketball has become a global iconic brand the likes of which we never anticipated really. And I think that when you look at soccer, that's the one sport from an international perspective, from a global perspective that you could say nothing eclipses that. But then you can make an argument for the NBA particularly after a deal like this. And if you're the New York Knicks, if you're the Golden State Warriors and others, remember they were recently projected at being at about 7.5 to 8.8 billion, respectively. Imagine what they're worth now after this price tag that Mark just paid for the Los Angeles Lakers. I can't even imagine.

It's great to see them win. It was great for the game of basketball because of their youth. The fact that they averaged about 25 and a half, 26 and a half years of age. Second youngest team in NBA history to be a champion next to the Portland Trailblazers 1976 and 1977 Portland Trailblazers led by Bill Walton, the late great Bill Walton. This is the youngest franchise aside from them. This is the youngest franchise to ever win a championship. So it's a testament to their leadership. Owner Clay Bennett, the president of basketball operations, Mr. Sam Presti, of course, coach Mark Daigneault, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is just a young marvelous player, not even 27 years of age yet, that is universally recognized to be in top two players in the world at this particular moment in time because he's so gifted as a 6'6" ball handler and scoring machine. You just can't say enough about them. And then you look at their young roster. Jalen Williams is only 24. Lu Dort is 26 years of age. They've got a few guys that are in their early 20s to mid-20s. So they're not going away. And you have a franchise that has about 15 first round picks over the next several years. So don't expect them to diminish at all. They'll be around for a while.

Well, the Haliburton injury didn't remind me of Kobe. It reminded me more of Kevin Durant because Kevin Durant had torn his Achilles in the NBA finals as well. Kobe tore his Achilles right before the playoffs began and there was a difference there. As it pertains to Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and them reminding you of Kobe, the youth, the fearlessness with the youth, to be so young, to have proverbial ice in your veins, to be unfazed by the stage, being there for game seven, you know, palms get sweaty, guys get tight, and you're looking for the nervousness. And I saw the nervousness in several players on Oklahoma City and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander was not one of them. The moment didn't faze him at all. He came out in attack mode, was completely unfazed by the bright lights and the big stage and the pressure that supposedly comes with a game seven. It didn't faze him in the slightest. I know that he shot 8 for 27 for the game, which is not the greatest shooting percentage. He finished with 29 points, 12 assists, and just one turnover in 40 minutes. But how he started out early definitely had a calming effect on the team because he was letting them know, I'm not worried about anything. I know what I can do and just so what? It's game seven. I'mma do it anyway. And that certainly reminds me of Kobe Bryant because that's how Kobe Bryant was.

Well, before I start off anything, you know, I would tell you that my mother is the greatest human being I've ever known. She was my everything. And the only human beings on earth that have ever compared to her was my daughters when they were born, and obviously they came after her, not before her, because she gave birth to me. And I often use the sentence that I know there's a God. I know there are angels because of her. That's how wonderful my mother was. And when I lost her in 2017 after a lengthy battle with cancer, started out as colon cancer and it was a seven plus year battle. It was the most devastating effect that I've ever experienced. Nothing has ever affected me in that way. I cried every day for two years. I went to therapy for the first time in my life a few months after my mother passed away. Every day seemed dark. Even when there was light at the end of the tunnel, you know, I say there's light at the end of the tunnel. In my case, I could wake up with light, but I knew darkness was imminent because at some point in time during the day, I would be thinking about her and I would be so overwhelmed that I wasn't myself. I think about mistakes that I made on the air broadcasting. I think about people talking and me not hearing them. I remember I described it as the people. I don't and I think that anybody that experienced what I experienced in terms of losing a loved one in that fashion can relate to what I experienced. I was on the air at times on First Take on ESPN on a debate show and it would be like a day. It was like 30 seconds to a minute and somebody is sitting right in front of me. I would neither see nor hear them at all. My mother would enter my mind and it would be complete darkness because I was that sad and I couldn't pull myself together in time to escape having moments like that. It didn't last long. In terms of the moment itself, it would be for like 30 seconds to a minute, but it would happen repeatedly. Couldn't sleep. Had nightmares every day. And it was just a level of palpable misery that I couldn't escape. And what I think helped me get out of it and therapy assisted in this was the waning hours of my mother's life, the waning days rather, because a few days before she passed away before she started transitioning, the last couple of days she didn't speak at all. She just would stare at us but she didn't say a word. And I remember when before she reached that point she had said to me, 'Why are you looking so sad?' And I just cried in her arms and I said, 'I'm going to miss you.' And she said to me, 'I prepared you for this. Do you love me?' So, of course, I do. And she said, 'I'm asking because if you truly do love me, which I know you do, you wouldn't want it to be another way. No matter how bad you're feeling, it's nothing compared to what I would be feeling if I lost you. This is the way it's supposed to be. Parents are supposed to go before their children. I need you to be strong and I need you to remember that.' And so that helped get me through because I kept reminding myself of what she said and striving to make her proud, striving to make her pleased, knowing that she would be watching down upon me from above. I held on to those words because that's what ultimately it took to get me through. And I would vacillate between sorrow and anger because she was 76 years of age when she passed. And she suffered a lot because my father who also passed away from it. They had Parkinson's and then cancer came on board and then ultimately took him away as well. But she had a pretty rough life because she had to carry a burden of responsibility that was supposed to be on his shoulders and he didn't do that in terms of taking care of the family. And so there was a level of bitterness in me because of what I knew she had missed out on. And what helped me get through that was her again reminding me there's no room for that. That's not going to get you anywhere. And then she would also say to me, you know that stress contributes to bad health, right? A positive attitude, thinking positive, finding the silver lining, wherever it is, and not letting yourself descend into an abyss that you can't pull yourself out of. She said it's not just a cliche. There are things in life that are good for the spirit. And you want to make sure that your mind and your heart's in the right place because if you do that, then you won't be as sad as a lot of people would be if they chose to do otherwise. And as a result, it would contribute to better health because you'll be inspired and enthusiastic and energized enough to do the kind of things necessary that won't contribute to your health deteriorating. And all of those things are things that I was able to hold on to that helped get me and propel me through that moment in time. It took a while. Two years is a long time. But eventually I was able to do it.

At times it was that way. At times, not all the time, but at times it was that way. And I'll tell a story that is not popular to say. I won't name the hospital. I won't name the doctor, but I will tell you this happened. And I want to take a moment to give incredible props to the Walt Disney family and some folks at ESPN because they had directed me to some specialist, particularly an individual, a guy by the name of Merril Hoge, a former NFL player for the Pittsburgh Steelers, an exceptional football analyst. He is somebody that I will love for dear life. Because he had referred me to this doctor. My mother was in some pain, some excruciating pain. And in New York, she was supposed to be taken to Sloan Kettering. Everybody, anybody that knows anything about cancer knows about Sloan Kettering in New York City. And my sister reacting to the moment my mother was in pain just called the hospital and asked for emergency and some other hospitals. She called another hospital and that wasn't a cancer center or anything like that and they came and got her and they took my mother into the hospital and they weren't alleviating the pain or anything like that and my mother was just in some excruciating pain and I'm like there's something wrong with this and my sisters were in the hospital with me and I was there. This is late 2011, spring of 2011, and it's 6 years before she passed away and the doctor I told the doctor I'm trying to get her to Sloan Kettering, I have the means, I've called Sloan Kettering, they're sending an ambulance here and they're going to pick her up and they're going to take her there but she had to be signed out and the doctor not only did not sign her out, it was a Friday, he left to go home, go away for the weekend into the Hamptons. I jumped all over the nurses there. I said, 'Get him on the phone now.' And the doctor said, 'I don't think it's necessary or whatever.' I said, 'I'm telling you it is.' And I said, 'Let me be very, very clear.' And again, I'm not proud I did this, but I'm going to be honest with you. I told him, 'Anything that happens to my mother happens to you. If you don't sign my mother out of here and something happens to my mother in this hospital, I'm coming for you.' And I have to confess to you, I meant it with every soul of my being. My mother's life was on the line and I wasn't playing games. And that doctor had it faxed to him and he signed her out. We got her to Sloan Kettering two hours later. The doctor who we remember to this day, Dr. Paty at Sloan Kettering, we will always hold a near and dear special place in our heart, my family for him because of the tremendous service he provided to my mother. They noticed that due to the chemotherapy and the radiation, it had become poison and was leaking into her organs. And he called for an emergency surgery to happen immediately. The reason why I brought up Merril Hoge is because the reason I reacted that way to the doctor was because Merril Hoge had introduced me. He knew a specialist in Pittsburgh and the specialist got on the phone and we had my sister Carmen had copies of the X-rays for my mother and he said, quote, 'I'm not speaking to Stephen Smith right now. I'm speaking to Stephen A. I need you to use every means of every bit of influence that you have to get your mother out of there now. The clock is ticking.' And when he said that is when I went berserk and I said, 'I got to get her out of here.' And when Dr. Paty saw her and he said this poisonous liquid from the radiation, the chemo was leaking into her organs. He said she would not have made it through the weekend. She would have made it to Sunday afternoon. And they performed that surgery in the wee hours of Saturday morning. Remember, she got there Friday night. They performed the surgery in the wee hours of Saturday morning. And the surgery they said was approximately six or seven hours. If I remember correctly, it was pretty close to seven. They said about five hours was simply turning her body sideways, allowing the poisonous fluid to leak out of her body. They had to place her body in a certain position so the poison could leak out. Had that not happened and she stayed in the hospital instead of getting to Sloan Kettering for that surgery, my mother would have been dead in 2011. She'd have never made it out of that weekend. And because they caught that and we got her to the hospital, we had another six years of my mother on this earth. And so I remember that. Now, as it comes with mixed emotions. On one hand, I'm grateful. On the other hand, I find myself repeatedly questioning all the money that's donated to cancer research. And I'm certainly not trying to dis, I'm not qualified. I'll leave that to you. But I'm not qualified to question whether money should be given to the researcher. I'm not going there. What I'm saying is as a loved one of someone who's suffering from this debilitating disease that's projected to infect over 2 million people in 2025, whether that be lung cancer, prostate cancer, colon cancer, whatever. I'm just saying to myself, the dedication, the focus, the money that has been poured into research in terms of cancer as it pertains to chemotherapy, radiation, what's the best remedy, I did find myself at times very, very frustrated that there wasn't something finite and definitive. And again, you're a doctor, not me. So, I often scratch my head and I'm sure I'm not the only one. But if you have something that can slow it down or can push it into remission, why can't we find something that eliminates it? I do find myself asking that question. I just know that I'm not qualified to give an answer. And so I leave that to the experts such as yourself and others to come to that conclusion. But I do owe you the honesty to tell you as a loved one of a patient of numerous, my mother, my father, my aunt Norma, my uncle Frankie, you know, several people within my family have suffered from this. I have found myself asking that question and I'm sure I'm one of millions who has asked that question.

Stephen, you're no doubt you're right. You speak for tens of millions with that and so much embedded in what you just shared. I'd like the doctor to respond to at least some of it and then we're going to bring folks in from the community. So, if you've got questions you want to get in the conversation, please raise your hand. Doctor, I'd love for you to comment on very powerful things that Stephen ran through in terms of history where so many people who've had a patient in a hospital for anything, but particularly for cancer, they're going to see a lot of similarities and feel a lot of the feelings of frustration and concern that they felt.

Well, I deeply appreciate that. Thank you so much. That's a beautiful thing to hear for people, for the loved ones of those who've lost folks to cancer, for those who are suffering from cancer now, to their loved ones who are alive and supporting them during these trying times. Certainly you want to give hope because that hope, that optimism empowers you and it emboldens you and it uplifts you to a point where your spirit and your soul can operate in such a fashion as to serve as a deterrent to ward off some of these things. I will tell you that I think that often when comedy sometimes tells you the truth in a lot of ways that make you laugh and smile but also makes you nod your head in affirmation. I remember when Chris Rock was doing standup one time and he was talking about money's in the medicine. Money's in the medicine. Why does that matter? Because when you hear about so much money being generated and aimed towards pharmaceutical companies, towards doctors, towards hospitals, etc., when you see folks' medical bills and how much cancer treatment cost, how much it cost to be on chemotherapy, how much it cost to be on radiation. You know, my mother was insured, but still an exorbitant bill came her way. She just had me. Fortunately, God has blessed me with the ability to take care of some of those bills. So, she didn't have that to worry about. But the average person out there couldn't afford what it was costing her. And so, I remember stuff like that. And I remember a guy like Chris Rock saying the money's in the medicine. And then you follow it and I think what the medical industry has to pay attention to is there's a level of skepticism that comes with that because the more money you see generated, the more you see a lack of incentive to not address the issue. Again, I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm simply talking about a human skepticism that comes with us all when we see so much money poured into a problem, but you're devoid of a solution. If you're working out with a physical fitness trainer and you're in the gym, all right, and you're lifting weights, you expect to produce more muscle and less fat. If you hire a nutritionist, you expect your blood work to show and exemplify that you're aiming towards a healthier path towards life because you've been eating right. You haven't been putting junk food in your body, etc., etc. When you exercise, you expect your lung capacity to increase. You expect yourself to build more stamina, etc. You don't expect to pour money into a situation where somebody is giving you an indication. Even if the word 'could' as opposed to 'would' is the operative word, they're still giving you an indication that you're aiming towards a healthier conclusion. And I think there's been millions upon millions upon millions of lives lost to cancer. And I find myself asking the question, what are y'all gonna do about this? We're gonna continue to fight. We're gonna continue to fight. That's what you hear. Well, damn it, you've been fighting for a long time. I don't know too many people that have had to fight this damn long with no resolution. Now, folks in the medical industry will say it is a resolution. Chemotherapy is a resolution. Radiation is a resolution. Well, I would say to them respectfully, I understand what you're saying. My response is, my mother's gone. My father's gone. My uncles gone. Couple of my aunts are gone. So you might feel like there's a solution, but on a personal level, it doesn't feel that way. And every time you hear the word cancer, what's the first thing we do? We pray. We know that you're going to fight. Jay Harris, my colleague at ESPN. Disney is absolutely wonderful when it comes to supporting us on so many things that I mean I tip my cap to my employer. I'm proud to be an employee of Disney with what they've done for me, my family, my life. But I see people and our first reaction is especially considering what we contribute to cancer research, how we fight that fight, Dick Vitale and so many others because of the Jimmy V Foundation, the late great John Saunders, Stuart Scott and others. I mean, these are some phenomenal, fantastic individuals that have fought or are fighting and have been doing so for years. And we find ourselves when we encounter somebody with these challenges, we pray for them and we wish them nothing but the best and we give words of encouragement because that's the right thing to do. But in the crevices of our heart, are we scared to death they'll lose the battle? Yes. Because on too many occasions we've seen too many loved ones lose the battle and I'm sick and tired of that to be quite honest with you. Too much research, too much time, too much money has been put in where by now, in my opinion, there should be a cure and we still don't have one yet.

Can I say something else real quick?

I don't want to speak out of turn, but I just have to let you know what my experience was. As my mother was deteriorating, my sister came to me and my sister wasn't a fan of the chemo. She wasn't a fan of the radiation. And she came to me because some holistic person came along and said that if you buy this light and you just go back and forth, this blue light, it'll get rid of the cancer. And there was no way in hell that I believed that that would happen. And it's going to cost $7,000. But my other sister said, 'You at least want to be able to say you tried everything. I know it's a lot of money, but you can afford it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at least you know you exhausted everything.' So for the psychosis, the psychology of my sisters, my nieces and nephews, because I got 15 of them, you know, my family, even though we suspected it wasn't going to work, we did it anyway. I bring that up to say not only does the absence of success when it comes to radiation, chemotherapy, not only does that affect you directly, but it also has ancillary effects because now you find yourself looking for other remedies. So it opens the door for others to come in with no connection really to the medical industry, with no real level of expertise convincing anybody of something because when you're desperate for a loved one, you're desperate and you'll try anything. Now, I wasn't that gone where I knew that I suspected rather it was going to work. I knew better, but my sister was because she loved my mother so much that you could come up to her with something like that and offer it as a remedy and she would at least try it if at all possible because everything else had been exhausted. These are the kind of things that happen to family and loved ones and people like that when you're going through such an excruciating thing like watching somebody fade before your very eyes due to the ravages of cancer. As somebody just texted, predators exist everywhere. But no matter how sensible you are, when you're down at the bottom and you're desperate and you're looking for anything, praying that something will work, you could be prone to fall for anything.

We're going to bring in community members. We're going to start with my friend Rey who's a longtime journalist, now a columnist, lives in Ohio. But as a longtime Knicks fan, he knows about perseverance and hope. Rey, welcome in. Thank you for joining. I delighted to introduce you to Patrick and to Stephen and eager to hear what you have to say.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for this,

Stephen. It's a fantastic and heart-wrenching story. By the way, before I ask my question, Stephen A., I happen to have lunch with Rob Parker today, who spoke very highly of you. I hope you remember Rob. He's one of my mentors and he is the godfather of my youngest daughter.