Hello you golfing legends and welcome back to another episode of The Original Off Course. I'm your host Dan Edwards and joining me this week once again is a titan in the putter game. His name is Sean Toulon. We all love him, we're just glad to have him on. Sean, great to see you buddy.
Nice to see you too Dan, how are you?
Good. I've got like a 10-minute intro for you if you really want it, but I feel like you're not that kind of guy.
No, we're all good. Let's talk clubs, putters, whatever you like.
Well, it's been a minute since you've been on the show and I know things move quickly in your industry and especially with how things are ramping up for you guys. Can you give folks an idea what Toulon's been up to for the last few months and then we'll get into 2025?
Yep. I would say, well number one, we just put the bow on our first full year of '24 with our '24 collection and then all the small batch stuff that we did. And we just had an awesome year, which was really, you know, we felt good about our products Dan and we felt like we had, we liked our position, we liked our designs, but you know, you never really know how things are going to turn out until you get in there and get a little dirty and muddy and see what happens. But first year I think we did really, really nicely. Very proud of the team. I think what we focused on two things, and I mean this is as fundamental as you could imagine it could be, right? Let's make the very, very best products that we know how to make and obsess over that, and then obsess over the customer experience and take better care of our customers than we think anybody could or did or does. So spoil the customer, give them an unbelievable product, and you know, it's kind of a stupid simple formula, but it's the right one.
Yeah, I think the Toulon story is pretty interesting because you have this sort of boutique model but then you have this like hyper-boutique model on top of it that really takes it to the next level. I know you're a guy that loves to tinker and certainly with different metals, you know, I've seen what your desk looks like most of the time so I have a good idea there. But I feel like this is your wheelhouse, the opportunity to really roll out the red carpet for anyone who wants to engage with the brand but also provide people the opportunity to get something in their hands as quickly as possible.
Yeah, yeah, I think so. So I think you're referring one to the hyper-boutique being the small batch stuff. And the small batch products for us, it's the ultimate sort of creative sandbox for us, right? And we don't make very many of them. And thankfully, I wouldn't say that, you know, we've, I love everyone that we've done so far and some resonate more than others to golfers, but they all resonate the same way to us. But it allows us to try things that you really couldn't try probably in full-scale production. So we can mess around with mill patterns and we can experiment with metals and finishes and shapes and, you know, little things, right? And a lot of those ideas really do change the way we think and look at collection putters, right? And you'll see a lot of that when we talk about '25 and the collection putters that we have, a lot of that has been inspired by things that we learned from doing small batch. So it's a really cool part of our business. It requires a lot of time and energy and mental resources of everybody, especially Tony. But it really puts our brand into the place where we'd like to have a stronghold.
Yeah, I want to go under the hood of that a little bit because I think it's really interesting. I've known you for a long time now and I know you're a guy that likes to get together and break bread and spend time with the people that matter to you. I think that's a pretty big storyline of your life. When it comes to creating this multitude of option small batch style thing, is it very much that vibe when you get down to it from the creation process? You get together, you start to just throw things at the wall, write things down on napkins and then just see what happens there. Can you give people an idea of how you get to these things where you start talking things like tuna and watch material, like that kind of stuff?
Yeah. So I think for there, there's really two parts of the small batch. One is creating the product itself, and then the other one is really understanding the geographic connection that that product is going to have. So for instance, tomorrow, this is, so I've just timestamped our conversation, tomorrow we launch small batch Scottsdale. And that's a really cool product because, one, I think the design of the putter is amazing, kind of a cool little sort of ear-shaped mid-mallet with a H1 neck, which you typically don't see those things come together. But we got inspired by all things Scottsdale, which is obviously the desert, the history of it being part of the Wild Wild West, Frank Lloyd Wright and all the Frank Lloyd Wright-inspired architecture, and all of these things coming together. And then we try to get it all to sort of coagulate into a product that really resonates with people. So part of the, you know, throwing ideas against the wall is the product itself and then the other part of it is how we create meaningful stories behind it, right? And that really comes to life in the ways we might choose a mill pattern or certainly the graphics and the story behind the graphics and all that stuff. And those are amazing sessions to be in and they're not all smiles. Somebody can get pretty, me or Tony or Press, anybody can get pretty fired up about a position that they might have. And you know, sometimes I have a thought and they think it sucks, and sometimes it might, and sometimes they're wrong. But it's all good and we get through it. But that's really to me what gets the whole team excited about creating a new product that's fun because it's more meaningful, right? There is a true level of emotion that goes into that creation.
And I have the privilege of seeing some of this stuff maybe a little bit before others do. And my favorite part is seeing the name and guessing what's in it. You know, I think that starts to become more of a hobby of mine is to see like, okay, what's on their mind right now? And then when I do get into actually seeing the product, it's like, all right, I want to find out why this happens. And when you get to start reading it's like, okay, that really ties in well. And I think Scottsdale is a really fun example because I look at it, I'm like, man, it looks like a saddle to me. I'm just like, the color suits it, everything connected really well to it. So you know, it's a lot of fun in that regard.
Yeah, I think so too. One of the, we did one last year at the Women's British Open Championship which was held at St Andrews, right? So that was where we did Toulon and Sons. And our mindset was what if, you know, a hundred years ago or 200 years ago we had a little storefront right on Links Way called Toulon and Sons and we were club makers like the Auchterlonies or Old Tom Morris and what would that look like and what would our storefront look like? And it's just fun to dream and then bring it to life in a product. And you know, we don't make many of them, right? We make 75 of them at the most. And you know, so people that get them, they're these really kind of cherish little hopefully eventually heirlooms that they have. And that's a fun thing to be a part of.
Yeah, see that's the kind of thing that I think people need to hear about from you, the way you dive into that. Because every time we've had a conversation in person or even something like this, it feels like this is a hobby that just happens to make money for you. And that's I think what is so fun about it is that there's a real drive to just be a part of something special for you. And it's, you know, a lifetime of obviously success that's gotten you here, but like that to me is what might be one of my favorite parts of the Toulon story is just exactly how much of a hobby and a component of that exists for you.
Yeah, so you know, it's not easy starting a little company, starting a company at all, right? And I can tell you, I didn't dream of retiring and working 100 hours a week again, right? Which we all honestly, we are, maybe now it's 85, but this is not a part-time job for sure, right? But you wouldn't do it, there's no way you would do it or the kids would do it if they didn't love it, right? Because no rational person would do that. You know, I was here at 4:30 this morning, right? But it doesn't feel, it's just what I do and it's what they do, right? And there's just so much love and excitement and like a privilege to be able to do this that it's, curiously without sounding like just an old saying, it's just we just love what we do and we're lucky that that's the way it should be.
Honestly, I think driving that connection is part of what makes the experience so special and to have the name on the putter like that. I think we should talk 2025. You guys have a lot coming, a lot of new looks coming as well. But I think there's a centralized theme here that connects everything together and that's the term 'soft'. I read through the PDF you guys sent me, which obviously looks amazing, but the resounding feedback here is 'soft'. Tell me why that word means so much in 2025 for Toulon.
Yeah, I'll tell you what. When you, with '24, we loved the '24 lineup, right? And we had a really unique finish on that and you know, I think overall the shapes of the products and it was, I'm very proud of what we put out. But one of the really cool things about having this small company, again, we don't make thousands of anything, we make, you know, a hundred of something or maybe 200 of something, right? So we don't make a lot of anything, which means we get to also go back and build these orders, right? So when Dan Edwards or Josh or one of your members orders a putter, one of us goes back and builds it, right? So when you're back there looking at the putter that closely, you start to see, hey, we could have done that maybe a little differently or what if we did that? And you know, look at a blend of the hosel differently or geez, you know, underneath the bucket of an H1 hosel, maybe that's a little sharper than it could be or should be. So you just get this closeness with the product because it's there every day with you, that your level of curiosity has always peaked and hey, maybe we could do this or that. So as we started going through that, and I would say May or June, the operative word did become 'soft'. And for me at first it was really about just making the product more inviting to touch, you know, and because when you touch, you don't just touch, you touch with your eyes, you touch with your fingers, but you get this feel. And I want people to be able to take a putter head and touch it and just go, oh my God, that's just, that's awesome. That's just so, there's all of these sensory things that happen that create an emotion of, I got to have this, right? So the operative word for desire for us is 'lustful', and when you look at it, it's just something that you look at and say, my life will be better if that's in it. So 'soft' was really the thing that we keyed on. And then once we looked at, you know, the finish and all the radii and the chamfers and all of that, that was one part of it. But then the obvious second part of it is how does it sound and how does it feel and what could we do there.
I want to rein you in a little bit because we are definitely going to talk about sound today. But I don't want to walk too far away from this conversation without talking about the overall lines that are on the putter. You know, you talked about refinement and this sort of visual refinement. Is the conversation here more about softening edges and creating better flow on a visual?
Yeah, I think that's a lot of it. And I think Dan, you've seen the product and obviously the listeners so far have not, but when you see what we did different with the Las Vegas, I think that's sort of the poster child for 'softer', right? Because you'll remember that in the back flange, that used to be a straight bar there, right? And now it's more curved. And we did that for a couple of different reasons. It did help us create a different sound and different feel which we wanted to on that product. But a curved surface is certainly emotionally much different than just a straight line across the back. So then when you look at that, we crowned the top a little bit and, you know, so there's a, when you change one thing to make the whole package sort of flow visually, you end up changing everything, right? And that's what we did. And ultimately even if these changes are very, very small, if you change three or four things in a tiny way, you'll see it, a golfer will see it, right? And that's really what we're after. I think Vegas is probably the shining example of that.
Yeah, this is getting released after '25 drops so they will have seen it and they'll be able to refer to it as it's happening. I think that's worth mentioning. Good. One thing that I think is interesting about this decision is from a purely precision concept, from a boutique putter concept, I look at a lot of newer concepts that come out and they usually have really sharp lines which to me is a bit of a turnoff. I think that there is a level of, I don't even know if I want to say precision, but that rolled edge almost feels like there's that added component of refinement, I think you could say, to the overall shape. And I know it's not easy to get there, but I think it's a really important component to make a putter look complete, it finished if you will.
Yeah, I think what it is, it's the obsession over a detail like that, right? And I will tell you, if we had to make thousands of them, it would be way more difficult than making hundreds of something, right? So when you look at that top line and see just that tiny little chamfer that's on there, and that chamfer is exactly the same as it is on the back line, and that's part of creating this overall look and finish of completeness, I guess. And we obsess over that and make sure that every single one is done that way. You know, that's, I think that's what makes our putters different. That's a big chunk of it.
So here's what I want to do because I know you're a guy who doesn't have a putter head far away from you at all times. I assume you're within arm's reach of at least a handful of them right now, unless you happen to be in the bathroom or something and I don't know about it.
I'm in my office and they are right here.
But my question to you is just for a little bit of fun, how many days of your life do you think you've spent holding a putter in your hands?
Every day since I was 12.
But I mean like overall time spent either looking at or touching a putter head, what do you think, a year?
Oh, way more. I mean if you just, you know, the what is the old adage that to be a subject matter expert it's 10,000 hours? Yeah, literally. I got at least 5,500 hours last year. So it adds up quick and that's been a lot of years of that. But I don't know how long it's been, but it's a lot.
Well, tell me about the new finish. I think that's an interesting, I believe you call it anthracite or something of that nature. What got you to that finish and why is that important for 2025?
So it was a finish that we did in one of the small batches this year. And it was a really special one for us because it was the introduction of a concept called Toulon and Sons, which is obviously near and dear to my heart. And it was just this beautiful sort of a liquid charcoal. So it was done on kind of a pin-tail blade that would be sort of shaped like a Santa Monica but with a snub nose and a pin tail. It's just cool, that putter is just awesome. But what I liked so much about the finish is it really, it was really deep. So the depth of the luster was awesome. Some of that is the 904L material, but it really showed off all of the beautiful details of the slow milling process that we use. And other finishes don't do it as much. Black, I love, but it starts to hide some of it a little bit more. There were just little things that you could see shadows and things like that, which obviously with black, the shadow would just blend into the rest of it. So you got to see different parts of the putter that you actually spent the time to change a radius here or a chamfer there or, you know, soften this or tweak here or there. And that part of the finish we just loved. And then visually it's just very striking.
Yeah, I think one of the things I'm most curious about because it's something you've used in the past is how much does the impact of the finish change switching metals? Is it notable or is it subtle?
I'd say subtle. I'd say subtle. 904, it just polishes so beautifully and machines with a sort of a level, you have to go really slow because the material is difficult to mill. And we have a material change for this year into a 304 which you can mill a little bit faster. But that has some bearing on it, but I would say, you know, it's 10% right or something like that. So it would be pennies or dimes, not dollars, right? But it's all part of the process.
Okay, well let's walk right into 304 then. Why do you land on that steel? I think you take your metal very seriously. I can't imagine making a switch or focusing on a particular metal is an easy choice. Why was 304 the one you landed on?
The hair softer, for one. So that was something that we were really interested in. And a lot of that has to do with the way our lineup is constructed this year, which is very, very mallet-centric. Which, I'm sure we'll talk a lot about that, but so that's part of it. And then, really doesn't matter much at this point for the '25 collection, but 304, so I'm going to kind of tip our hand a little bit, 304 is a material that welds beautifully. So you can guess that potentially the garage is not that far away.
Okay, that's a big piece of the puzzle. I mean, that's a question I've always had for you. Wow, okay. What was the, I can't believe I can't remember, what was the metal you used for '24?
It was 303. Okay, I didn't want to say it out there just to be a goof, but yeah.
No, that's okay. So it's not a big change. These are tweaks, right? But just little bits here and a little bit there. Like I said, three or four changes and all of a sudden you do have a product that's quite unique and quite different.
Okay, and one of the questions I've always had is, I know there's a durability conversation in play every time I ask this question to anyone who talks about putters or knows anything about putters. But I mean, carbon steel has always been a pretty relevant piece of the conversation, especially when you look back at like the 2000s or so, everyone was using it because of the profile it had. It was soft, it was different. And then there's this shift into stainless because obviously people treat their putters like garbage and no one wants a rusty putter. So tell me about the carbon steel component. Do you ever look at that as an option and why do most people shy away from it?
Well, they shy away from it for exactly what you said. That if you don't take care of it, it won't take care of you very well, right? And it's interesting, people seem to have adopted raw and rusty wedges but not so much in putters, right? So we launched this year a carbon proto in a new blade called Hollywood and also in Las Vegas. And we did those in December and they sold out immediately. But we plated them, which is also not easy to do, especially on bigger mallets. It's actually not that easy to do on a blade either to get the level of consistency of the finish that you really want. But the sound and feel of carbon is, there's a real romance to it. To your point, you know, it brings me back to the early 1990s when Scotty Cameron was back and Tad Moore and those guys were doing beautiful carbon putters. I think it's really cool. So we did those and we didn't like them, we loved them. So my guess is it won't be the only time we ever do it.
So why plate them then? Does that not have an impact on the overall sound profile if you play it?
It can, but it's, you know, you basically turn it into a beautiful forged plated iron, right? And I don't know, no offense to Ping, but I'd rather hit a Miura.
Well, yeah, your words and mine, let's be clear. That's interesting. The metal conversation is always a fun one and I'm curious about 304 as it is softer in this sort of continuation of the conversation you've had. I'm going to let you go into sound now because I think it's a big part of the story. But I want to direct that into it by asking about the milling. We've had wonderful discussions in the past, Sean, about the style of your milling patterns, especially early Toulon release stuff where you're directing sound waves to people's ears and going into the weeds that I would have never thought to go into just purely based on what you wanted people to hear. The milling for '25 is gorgeous, I mean it's awesome. But how much of that plays into the sound profile?
