A Conversation with Tina Knowles Moderated by Cathy Hughes at Her Legacy

Wonderful. Okay. So, again, our founder of Radio One is in the building, Miss Kathy Hughes, and I would like to introduce you to her legacy. My name is Karen Clark, and I work for Foxy 107 104.

Mirror, you're next since you're on stage. I'm Mir I am. Yes, my name is Miriam, and I stole Will I Am's name in order to make mine for radio. And I'm on Foxy the Light and K975.

Y'all hear me all the time. I know you sick of me.

I am Royalty. Big T, not the little one. Listen, I know. I know. I'm not big, okay? But it's okay. It's still big T. I am K975 midday. If you have ever checked me out, thank you so much.

Good afternoon. I'm Zena Merritt. I am a senior county executive for Radio One. As a matter of fact, I'm the longest standing sales rep in the Raleigh office.

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Hi everyone, I'm Luca Parker. I'm also a promotions assistant and a kind of a jack of all trades for the radio station. Thanks.

Good afternoon. I'm Maria Euing. I thought I was retired and then someone asked me to come back and work part-time and I'm executive assistant to the vice president general manager and helping with special events. Thanks.

Hello, my name is Tracy Mosley. I kind of do a little bit of everything, but I specialize in helping with events and promotions at the radio station.

Hi, my name is Zan Gman and I am the continuity director.

Good afternoon everyone. I'm Callie Douglas returning back to Radio One and programming. I've been there, it's been over two decades.

They're making me announce myself. I didn't want to. But my name is Glennice. I am the online editor for all the stations at Radio One Raleigh and I do the editorial work and some of the social media work.

And I am Melissa Wade in the water. I do the middays on the light 103.9 and I program the light as well as Foxy 107 104 now and we have one more member to introduce.

I told them I was aging while I was waiting on you up here. They weren't expecting me to come up here the way I did.

Uh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Who you with?

Hello. Hi. Like we ain't seen each other. We back back there taking photos and talking.

The triangle. You know, it's called the triangle cuz there's three. Yeah.

My mic? Yeah.

There we go.

Oh, wow.

Oh my god. I can't even tell you.

Okay. Okay. I love talking about the book.

Yes. Okay. Pastor Rudy has saved my life since that morning you took me to his church.

An incredible human being.

I remember that story. Okay. Yeah. So, Pastor Rudy is an individual where Tina raised her girls, okay, and her husband up in the church and her grandson. So the first day at church, your grandbaby, your number one, how old is he now?

Yeah. He was throwing the hymnals over the balcony and hitting people, right? Trying to get me so.

The ultimate. And I can't wait to read it. So, I know that I'm probably the only interview you've ever done where the host of the interview said, 'I ain't read the book.' Wait, wait, can I get a free copy?

You knew what I was going to say. Yes. But I, yeah, the book was, you know, I didn't plan on writing a book. I said I would never write a memoir because people had asked me before and I was always like, 'Y'all don't want to know about me. Y'all want to know all my kids' business.' That's true. And y'all going to get me in trouble, so I'm not going to do that. But then when I got a divorce after 33 years of marriage, I was just feeling, I was 59 years old, which is really funny now because I look back on that time and I just felt so old and I felt so tired and weary and I was like, you know, if something happened to me today, my grandkids wouldn't know anything about their grandparents or, you know, what resilient stock they came from. And so I just started recording in my phone about my childhood and before I knew it I had, you know, my all my years, no no no no just my years in Galveston and so I say, you know, I lost that phone for a while and I was able to go back and find it when they approached me about doing this book. I was 70 years old and I'm like where, oh thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

No, no, no. I was, it was a bad time for me, you know, going through a divorce after 33 years. And just I don't know. It was just, it was just a bad time.

Yeah, he was the love of my life. I had been with him since I was...

So anyway, I had written a lot of it and then I went back and got that and it just took me down this journey and I started researching my ancestry.com and my grandmother's, my great-grandmother's and my mom had always told me that my great-grandmother was enslaved and her mother was enslaved and that they managed to, she managed to free her kids. And that's pretty much all she told me was that you're from these strong women, Tinie. And my name was Celestine. I couldn't stand that name. I still don't like it till today.

I don't know who that is because I hated that name. And anyway, she was like, the name is beautiful. And she used to say it really pretty. She would say Celestine cuz she was, you know, had this heavy Creole accent. But when people said it, they said Celestine and it wasn't cute. But anyway, she would tell me these stories and so I knew I was from resilient women, but I didn't know how resilient they were. So this book took me down this path of just studying. And the guy who helped me, you know, with all the dates and the facts, he found out all kind of great things about my ancestors and all that's in the book.

And how my parents moved from Louisiana, how they came from Louisiana to Texas. And I mean it's better than a movie. It's a lot of what do they say? Sex, drugs, and rock and roll in this book. So anyway, yeah, so I wrote the book and it was a great, it was the best thing I could have done for myself because it was therapy.

Oh yeah.

It's relatively new and by design, you know, I always worked with the girls and I was always around and I did a few interviews, but you know, my hair wasn't combed. I didn't have no makeup on. I look crazy all the time. And I really...

Well, thank you. But those pictures don't say the same. But I intentionally stayed out of the limelight and I was a behind-the-scenes person. And what I realized at 70 is that a lot of times I was doing so many things and contributing so much and I didn't care about the credit for it. But I turned 70 and you know can I say this that when you turn 70 you don't give a about a bunch of stuff. And one of it is what people are going to say, how they going to judge you. You know, how I used to be so so concerned about never embarrassing my kids cuz you know, mamas embarrass their kids. And I still embarrass my kids all the time. Y'all know that. But I don't care. And I mean, I wouldn't say I don't care. I do care, but it doesn't bother me as much. I'm not walking a tight rope and being so careful about my life. I'm free. I feel free.

But I do.

I drive everywhere. I go to the mall. I go to the grocery store. I do everything that, you know, that I did before. I go to church by myself. I drive myself because I just made a conscious decision that I refuse to let my life be so affected that I'm scared of people. So, I still meet people. I talk to people. I love meeting people. I love talking. I love taking pictures. I like it all. So, it doesn't bother me.

Okay.

Those were the most comfortable shoes that I had ever in my life worn. And I don't know, I'm sure you don't remember this little detail, but I was rushing to catch the plane and I left the pair that I had with me in the room. I hadn't been at the airport 10 minutes and I called back and said, 'Oh my god, my shoes are in the room.' They were gone. Those shoes. Why did you come out of the shoe business? Because I remember in an interview with Beyonce that she said to me that she can't remember a day where her feet weren't hurting until you and her developed these shoes. Talk about those shoes.

If I remember correctly, doctors, we had foot doctors to consult. They were really comfortable shoes.

Well, you know, you're still doing good, girl. They still...

Cancer. You don't know this. I had cancer.

Four years. She was at my 75th birthday party which was in Vegas. She and then husband Richard came over. And Charlie was busy flirting with her. Charlie's my grandson. Okay. Who's 17 now, subtract four, okay? And he was always talking about, 'Yeah, when I grow up, I'mma marry Tina.' I was like, Charlie, would you please conduct yourself like your grandmama gave you some home training, but let's talk a little bit about this cancer because I have to honestly say that when that doctor sat me down and told me that I had cancer, I went into a zone.

And I didn't even know that there was a stage zero until I told my sister and she's a nurse and she said no Tina you don't have the first stage you know it's a stage zero and what I want to just say really quickly is that during COVID I somehow missed they canceled my mammogram because I've been really good about doing my mammograms and they canceled it and then the year passed and then the next year came and I thought I went that year and you know I just got away from it.

I had breast cancer and in my left breast and so what happened was I had stage one and I could have had stage zero. So, I just want to every time I get to speak, I tell people, please, please go for your mammograms. Please go for your pelvic exams. Women, just take care of yourself cuz we put ourselves last.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. And it was...

That's right.

It's not a death sentence.

Spending it with, you know, my grandkids. My grandkids are the best.

Well, he don't want to be bothering me right now, but the younger ones still do. So, that's part of it. And I also I belong to a book club and that's so much fun. I like to travel.

Africa for sure.

Well, I've been to Lagos. I've been to South Africa. I've been to Nigeria. I've been to Ghana. I just went to Ghana for the first time a few years ago with the year of the return. And it was such a beautiful experience. But it's nothing like that. You know, I felt I had arrived home. Did you?

They got it from both. You know, I was in a singing group and their dad was in a singing group when we were in high school cuz you know that was during the time I was born in 1954. So in like the late 60s and early 70s, everybody had a group. Were you in a group? No. Okay. You know, that's what we did. And so...

Well, we were both in singing groups and we always, you know, he played the piano and we sang to the kids when they were little. So, they got it from both of us. Now, they didn't get their dancing from me. I'm sure...

Yeah. Yeah. We've seen videos and they always like well we know they didn't get that dancing from Miss Tina. But yeah so that's, they got it from both of us.

Well, thank you.

Well, absolutely. I mean, first of all, you know, that's the father of my children, and they have to read this stuff. My grandchildren have to read it. So, I just didn't want to be somebody's entertainment.

And so I just chose the high road, you know, and I'm...

I think when you make the decision really that you're going to choose you, your focus ain't on them, it's on you and what you got to do moving forward. And you know I was very devastated. Not because I wanted my husband, I mean it was time for that to end but because I had been married for 33 years and I didn't know anything else. And my husband, my ex-husband and I kind of grew up together. You know, we were together since we were very young and everything about him wasn't bad. So, I chose to focus on the good and that is how I live my life. I don't waste my time holding grudges, rehashing the past. I'm keeping moving.

Yes.

I changed it though. See that's the thing. In fifth grade, I changed my name to Tina. In fifth grade. Yes. My mama went in the hospital and I was like, 'This is my opportunity.' So, I was going to public school cuz I had been to Catholic prison, I mean, school. And I was going to public school and I said...

Yeah. No, but I went to that school and I told my brothers, I said, 'Please, please don't give them my birth certificates. I hate that name.' And they kept saying, 'No, we can't do that cuz mama told us to give them the papers.' And when I got in there, I was just looking at them like this. And they said, 'Oh, well, my mama is in the hospital and we don't have our paperwork.' And I said, 'Well, I promise I'll bring it next week.' And by that...

Next week, I was Tina Beyonce, not Celestine. So, I think in my life I changed. It's crazy because, you know, I went to a Catholic school. If anybody's read the book, I went to...

Oh, everybody in here except me.

Oh, okay. Well, I went to a Catholic school and the nun, we were... I grew up super poor, right across the street from the school. We had this raggedy little house and you could see our house from the school. And we went to this private school and my mama was always saying, 'We don't have money for that. You know, we can't afford it.' I'm like, 'Well, y'all sure are affording this stupid school across the street.' And it was like teachers and nurses. They were like the upper echelon of, you know, people and they had money. And so we were at the school and these nuns reminded me every day that I did not belong there. I didn't know why we were there. But they would tell me that I was selfish and vain. I'm 5 years old and they telling me I'm vain and I'm selfish and they're going to get that evil spirit out of me. And I'm not going to tell you what I was calling them in my brain, but I was just thinking, 'No, you're not.' And I had a mother that was an amazing, wonderful mother, but my mother was very passive and very Catholic and very brainwashed. So, she didn't protect me from them. So, I had to learn to be a warrior at five and talk back and protect myself because she just didn't protect me with the nuns. And so, that resilience that I have, that fight that I have came from being five and them telling me that I didn't belong and I wasn't good enough all the time. So, you know, I taught my daughters from day one, you are good enough to be anywhere you choose to be. You could be whatever you want to be. You just got to work hard. Ain't nobody going to give it to you. You got to work hard and you got to persevere and you got to make the sacrifice, but you could do anything. And they really believed that they could do anything.

They've accomplished it.

Yeah.

So that positive motivation you passed on to them even though you didn't have it.

Well, I did have it. My mom was always telling me, you know, that I was smart and I was beautiful and all of these things. No, my mama was great, but she just with the nuns just bowed down, you know. She did all the altar, you know, she was a seamstress, so she did all the altar clothes, she did the altar boy uniforms. That's where I learned to sew. Her mother was a seamstress way back from my grandmother, my great-grandmother who was enslaved. She could sew. So, they passed it on. But what I found out when I was 14 is that my mom and dad were bartering because my daddy drove the nuns to, you know, pay their bills and their errands. I was like, 'Why are y'all slaves to these people?' And they were mean. They were really mean. And they did a lot of really cruel things to me.

But were you the only black in the school?

Girl, no. The school was black and the nuns were black. Oh, no. Not a white school. They didn't have that then. I was born in '54. This is like '59. This was a black Catholic school. It was black nuns. But what I found out when I was 14 is that my mama was bartering. So, she was working like for them and doing everything for them. My dad was, in order for us to go to private school. And whereas I think that that is such a beautiful sacrifice right now, I did not think it was at 14. I was like, she could have kept that because it wasn't a great experience for me. But what a sacrifice my mom made when I got older. I really appreciate it. I get emotional every time I think about it because she took a bunch of stuff so that her kids could have a good education. So she was a wonderful mom, but she just would not fight the nuns because she was scared that they were going to kick us out probably, you know, she was in a bad position.

So after all of these numerous interviews, best-selling book, what's next? What have you not had time to really focus on that you would like to do now?

You know, I'm sure I haven't done everything I wanted to do in life. I've done a lot. I had a bucket list and I crossed off so many things. And recently I did a commercial for Kurt Geiger and they asked me to be in the commercial and I actually wound up producing it, doing all the decor for it, doing the styling, everything from nuts to bolts. And it was so much fun. I didn't know if I could do it, but I did. And that was great. That was a great accomplishment. You know, I've done a lot of stuff.

Will you marry again?

I don't probably, I don't know. You know, if I find that right person at 72, the pickings are slim, but you know, I have been talking to a very nice man. That's a wonderful man. Yes, he was very nice. And if it happens then it's great but if it doesn't and if it don't work out I am going to be just fine because I get up every day and my life is just full of joy. It really is.

Is it hard for you to distinguish whether or not they're interested in you or they're interested in your family?

I don't think so because I think very highly of who I am. I do. I mean, not in an arrogant way, but you know, it's funny. I'm going to tell you a little quick story. When I went through my divorce after 33 years and I was so sad and I was so down. I was in therapy because I've been in therapy forever. And my therapist called me and she was like, 'How you doing?' And I was like, 'I can't, you know, I don't feel like getting out of the bed. I'm just eating ice cream and I'm looking at TV and I'm just, you know, I'm really sad.' And I said, you know, I just feel like I'm so old and I'm not going to meet anybody. And those things go through your head. And she said, 'You know what? I want you to do something for me. I want you to take a piece of paper.' And that's when people wrote and didn't put it in their phone. And I wrote down all the list of every failure that I've ever had in my life. Every time that I felt insecure or not attractive or any failures in my life. And then I wrote down all of my wins and all the things I had accomplished and things that I felt good about. And the good side so outweighed the bad. Even though the bad was speaking louder at first, but as I wrote and I felt better, I said, 'You know what? If I met me, I would want to date me. If I met me, I would want to be my friend.' So, I got up and got cute and went to the museum and I started looking at art again because I hadn't had time. I shipped my art books to New York and I started living because I feel why wouldn't somebody want to date me? I'm funny. I'm nice. I got a lot of good stuff going on. So thank you. Cute, too. Thank you.

But why would... And brilliant. Why would they want me for who my family is? I just don't think that way.

Yeah. And so I think you attract the right kind of person. How you think of yourself. I'm glad because you opened that up because that's what I want to talk to this gathering of distinguished women and that one gentleman who won the first prize. Okay. We again going back to young women wanting to be one of your daughters. This whole notion of understanding who we really are is really a conspiracy that has existed since the days of us arriving on these shores.

That's right. They knew what they were bringing over. They knew that they had the brilliance of three sisters sending a man to the moon. Okay. That's right. They knew they had a Tina Knowles or a Kathy Hughes. And so they have consciously tried to make us doubt.

That's right. And so many of us buy into that doubt. And I don't know what's going on with my mic. Okay, it went back. Thank you. What advice do you share? I think it was really important for you to tell these sisters if you ain't had a mammogram, you need to go. I'm telling you, go get a colonoscopy. But more importantly, how do we deal with these myths of who we aren't and buying into them?

Oh my god. You know, I think that it is the power of sisterhood. At my lowest times in my life who has pulled me up and I'm getting emotional about to cry thinking about it has been my sisters. You know, if you think about not my blood sister, but my friends, you got to surround yourself with a circle of women that make you feel good every day, that's not jealous of you, not envious, that lift you up and you lift them up, because it's so much power in that. And I'm always confused when I see a circle of friends because I mentor a lot of young people. And when I see a circle of friends where, you know, it's some young sisters and they are kind of being catty and a little jealous and, you know, that has not been my experience. My experience has been my sisters lifting me up and when I feel really bad and insecure, they make me feel better. Surround yourself with people who are happy to see you and happy to see you do well. That is my advice because we cannot go outside of our own race to expect people to prop us up. We got to prop each other up. Stop tearing each other down, uplift everybody around you. Because I never understood the concept of people being negative and mean and hateful, but thinking they going to have success.

Who's going to like you?

Who's going to want to follow you? Who's going to want to buy your product if you start a business? It's just easier to be a good person and to uplift everybody else and let them uplift you. That's my advice. Because we can't go outside and say, 'Oh, lift us up,' and we not lifting each other up. Right.

That's incredible advice. Incredible. So, I want to talk about your career as a hairdresser because what a lot of people... is it in the book how you were the breadwinner for a while. Okay. And my mama, my sister loves to tell the story that my mama was your first client when you came out of beauty school. She was like, 'I was not.' She, my sister worked for Matthew. And they had, she had to live with Tina and Matthew initially because she had no place to stay in Houston. And so Tina graduates from beauty school. And my sister said, 'Matthew said, Tina wants to do your hair.' She's like, 'Uh-uh. Not that soon after beauty school.' But my mama was, and my mama used to love to tell people, my mama, I lost her to COVID at 96. But my mama did not leave this earth without telling people, you know, 'Beyonce's mama did my hair.' All right. To the day she left.

But one of the things I try to do, like when you're giving young people advice and regardless of age, I like to try to correct misinformation about black women. I think that's so important when you have an audience. How many of you here, raise your hand for me if you would, think that Madame C.J. Walker was the ultimate in the hair industry and the first black woman millionaire? Raise your hands, please. Okay, I have a present for you. Where is my present for Tina, please? Number one, that's misinformation. It is. Madame C.J. Walker was not the first. Who? All right. Madame C.J. Walker went to the school, attended Poro, which is an African name for beauty. Wow. All right. She was trained by a woman named Annie Malone. Annie Malone was the first black woman to establish herself in the hair industry. Annie Malone was the richest woman, black or white, the richest person in the state of Missouri. For 10 straight years, she paid more taxes in Missouri than anybody white. Annie Malone trained Madame C.J. Walker. Madame C.J. Walker stole an idea called a curling iron and Annie Malone sued her. Oh, that's messy. Okay. Annie Malone created Federal Express. Federal Express. Federal Express used the Annie Malone blueprint. Annie Malone had a fleet of delivery trucks. If you placed your order for her products by 7 a.m., by 7 p.m. your products were delivered. It's the prototype for FedEx. Of FedEx. That's right. Okay. Oh, family of check. All right. I knew you'd be interested in this. Okay. I ordered this for you. Annie Malone in her preference says, 'I'm not big on publicity.' So, I have taken pictures. This is actually her scrapbook. Wow. Of my operation. Annie Malone had 300 uniformed employees. Wow. In her office. Go, Annie. Annie Malone had a hospital. Really? Once a year. If you were an Annie Malone salesperson, if you carried her product line, and you all can Google all this, Poro, P-O-R-O, okay, this is for you. If you were in her employee, once a year you came in to her headquarters for a week of training and spa treatments for you. That's the example that General Electric uses. If you work for General Electric, once a year you go for a week at their corporate headquarters. Major corporations in America have copied Annie Malone starting off with Madame C.J. Walker. Okay, but every Black History Month, okay? People are told the Madame C.J. Walker story and believe it. You were in the industry and didn't know about Annie Malone. That's for you. You all, and I'm a research history buff, you know. And you a history, that's the reason I got this, a secret. She knew that and it's so interesting. You need to really study her. She married the wrong person and her empire started to collapse. But she took her money and set up a home for children. Wow. In St. Louis, Missouri. About 10 years ago, I called the home because I decided I was going to start spreading the word of who Annie Malone really is. Okay. And I called and a receptionist said, 'I'm sorry it's a holiday, ma'am. We're closed for the day.' I said, 'Are you an answering service?' She said, 'Yes, ma'am.' The next day, her CEO called me back and I said, 'You're the CEO of the Annie Malone Children's Home in St. Louis, Missouri?' She said, 'Yes, ma'am.' I said, 'You still open?' She said, 'Oh, Miss Malone left all her money so that we would be in operation forever in perpetuity.' Okay, that's the story we need to be telling about the first black woman. Okay, millionaire in the hair industry. So, Tina, that's my gift to you. This woman, her company was one square block. All right. Okay. Delivery service. Uniform. Okay. And this is the cherry on top of the sundae. If you stayed employed five years with her, she bought you a diamond ring. One carat. If you stayed employed with her 10 years, she signed and financed a home for you and your family. All right. Right. I know. How is it that they have been able to cover that up? Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. Oh my god. Oh, my dedication to your book and promoting it is you wrote down the correct story of who you and your family are about because it's intentional that our history is altered, erased, forgotten. The books are being taken out of schools. Okay? So, I'm encouraging everyone, including myself, to try to put it down on paper or audio. Tell your story. All of us have interesting stories. Okay, that's part of that's in the book as well. I encourage everyone to, you know, just like I said, my history could have been gone. And I encourage... Thank you, Tel. And that's both your copies because that's a paperback that we just, I just reissued this week as a matter of fact. But, to just get on Ancestry, get on 23andMe and I know it's been a lot going on with that, but research, interview the oldest person in your family. I mentor kids and that's one of the things that I have them do. I have them to interview the oldest person in their family and they don't want to do it at first, but they get obsessed and then they just want to know all the history because our histories are so rich and you need to pass that on. Pass that legacy on to your kids and your grandkids. I wish I could go back and talk to my mama. You know, I lost her at 20, I was 26 years old. And I wish I could go... Yeah. I lost her very young. And so...

So your children never knew their grandmother? So they never met their grandmother. I never met my grandmother because my parents were like 44 when they had me. So they were older. But you don't have to go back but three generations actually I guess it'd be four generations to my great-grandmother. Both my great-grandmothers on both sides were enslaved women. And both of them managed to free their children. They had like 14 kids and the other one had 16 kids. And all of their kids were freed. So I know I come from some good resilient stock because I can only imagine what they had to do to do that.

The book is lengthy. That's the reason I selected it for my vacation reading. Okay. But listen to the audio book. Okay. And you know what else? The audio book. No, but the audio book is amazing. I won...

You recorded it, right? Yes. And my boy...

Yeah. Well, I've heard it's amazing. But when you are turning 80 next year, all the doctors tell you to read, not listen, because it keeps your brain.

But look at you. You turning 80.

I'll be 80 next year.

Look at this. You're doing something good, girl. What is the most important message in this book that you want to convey to those of us who have not had the privilege and the blessing of reading it yet or hearing it?

I think that you know it's legacy and that's, I mean, the theme for today is her legacy and this is my legacy. It's about resilience. And looking over this book, like I said, when I was reading it, I mean, not reading and writing it, I realized how resilient I am, how strong I am, and I encourage everybody.

It's kind of like a diary then you're telling me.

Yeah, it is. A lot of it is my diary because I just kind of recorded into it and what I was feeling at the time is very honest, too. Okay, this is fantastic. Thank you. They wanted me to have that picture as the cover, but I commissioned this young artist from Lagos and he did the painting for me. And the new book has, this one is just a paperback. It's a reissue of it. And they told me that I reached a new audience if I will put the paperback out. That's right. I was like, 'Okay, well, I'll do a paperback, but I want a new cover.' And they chose this picture. This is two months after I had Beyonce. And the original picture has, I wrote Matthew, Tina, and Beyonce in the sand. So, when I got ready to do this book, I was like, I'm not writing his name in it. I'mma flip the script. And they were like, 'You can't do that. You can't go alter it.' And I said, 'No, I'mma tell people that I did it.' Because the first one was in the first book. And so, you replaced him with Solange. I replaced him with Solange. And in the book, if you go to the last chapter, I took... the funny thing is I couldn't come up with anything to add to the book to make it different. Even though I had 400 pages I didn't use, I couldn't make it work. So, wait, wait, wait. You had 400 pages that you did... This book was 900 pages. So, the people were like, 'Don't nobody want to read 900 pages.' So, you got to get it down to 400. Well, that's not true with the family that you have produced. They'll read 9,000 pages, wouldn't you, sisters? Well, so I cut it down to 400 pages. So, I thought I could just go back and take some of that information and put it in new because I was like, why would I do another book and not have additional information and additional pictures and a new cover to make it fresh. And I was down so I gave up on it and I said, I'm not going to do it because I can't make it work. So, I was down in Thanksgiving last year. I was down in the Caribbean with my grandchildren and we had just come out the ocean and I just laid up there and I said, you know, I'm just so full and I'm so grateful and it was after the cancer thing and all of that. And I just started recording into my phone and the next thing I knew this whole epilogue was written and I talked about the tour and my tour because I end the book with my breast cancer surgery and that's kind of how it ends and it ends on the beach on my little spot I rent on the beach. And this book ends with me finding another... Well, I'm not going to tell you, but part of it was I was on the beach and I got to rewrite this in the sand. And then in the book there's a photo where I took a photo on the beach now.

Oh, a before and after. I love it.

And here it is right here. I know y'all can't see it, but I'm on the beach in the same position. And now I have Beyonce, Solange, Kelly, and Angie because I really helped four daughters. So yeah. So it's an update.

So how do you navigate the waters of difference in visibility and celebrity status with your four daughters? Because all four are accomplished. And everybody, every child, whether they admit it or not, secretly wants to be an only child so they can have their mama to themselves. Okay. I was an only child for six years, and my brother and I have not amended fences yet. I've been mad at him since the day he came home from the hospital. I'm like, we were just fine, the three of us. What the hell you doing here? Okay, I'm serious. My mama used to say that I would come home and go back in those days, we didn't have trash bags. You just put your trash in the can. She said, 'I'd empty out the can checking for a Baby Ruth.' My mother loved Baby Ruth wrappers. And then I would start crying if there was one thing. 'You gave him a Baby Ruth!' And she's like, 'Kathy, he doesn't have any teeth. He didn't eat a Baby Ruth.' Okay. How do you navigate that? How do you give only child attention when you have more than one?

You mean as adults or as children?

Period.

Well, as children, you know, I had... it's a five-year difference between Beyonce and Solange. And by the time Solange was like five, Beyonce was 10, and she was like this little local star in Houston. And it was very difficult for Solange because they were so close. And then all of a sudden Beyonce was in this group and she had all of her friends and Solange was getting in her stuff and trying to hang around them and she didn't want her around and she started being mean to her and Solange started tearing her stuff up, you know, the usual sibling stuff. And it really scared me. It frightened me. And in my salon, I had a therapist there and she was an adult therapist. And I said, you know, I want my girls to be close. I don't want them to have resentment. They're not close anymore. I'm just really worried about it. I want to send them to counseling. And she said, 'Oh, I know a child psychologist, a male child psychologist, and he is wonderful.' And so I started my kids in therapy. My family, including my ex, was like, 'You gonna make them girls crazy. They too young to be going to what? Why you putting them, sending them to a psychiatrist?' That's what they called it. And 'You gonna make them crazy.' And I sent them anyway. And Beyonce hated it. And Solange loved it because she loved to talk and get her stuff out. But it made Beyonce so sensitive to the fact that that was her little sister and people were taking her away from her and they became very, very close and they've been close ever since. And I'm really happy that I did that because this is way a long time ago, y'all. People and black people, they wasn't about that life.

Oh, it was taboo.

They didn't like it. Although you might have had Uncle Willie living in the back of the house and Uncle Willie was very special, you did not admit that you had mental problems in your family. Okay. No, that was taboo. You did not admit. It was called needing help. You did not admit that you needed help. You needed help. And so it was very kind of revolutionary for me to put my kids in therapy. And I believed in it because I was in it forever. And who put you in it? I put myself in it. I put myself in it when I was having problems in my marriage very early on. And to be honest, I never told anyone. I didn't tell my family for a long time that I was in therapy because I knew, you know, them and the way that they thought about it. And so when I put my kids in it, everybody had an opinion. And I was like, I don't care what y'all say. My kids are going to be well balanced and they're not gonna have all these insecurities and they're gonna be close. And so it worked. So, you know, if your kids need some help getting through some things, there is nothing wrong with getting...

And you can find free services. That's right. They have all types. Okay. Because I know someone's saying, 'Yeah, well that's good, but I can't afford a therapist for my troubled child.' Right. Check out the free services that are available. It is so important.

And support groups. That's your church. And support groups. And again, that sisterhood you're talking about. That's right. Sometimes the best therapy comes from a good friend who is not jealous, who's not trying to... okay, dog, you're great. Listen to what they're saying. Yes. You should be able to determine whether or not that person really has your best interest at heart.

Right. In closing, I got to ask you what's not in the book. All these hundreds of interviews, everybody except Queen Elizabeth, she died before she could schedule an interview with you. Okay. Everybody has interviewed you. Okay. The Pope might even be calling you after he finds out today that you willing to go beyond the book. What is it that you have wanted after you've done all these countless interviews that you wanted to say to an audience that you did not have the ability or the question didn't come up or you didn't feel it was the right time? What would you like to say to this group of distinguished sisters and one brother in Durham, North Carolina?

Um, I think I got to say everything. I'm pretty open and honest and people have had great questions and when they don't have the questions and there's some message that I want to get out then I find a way to get it out. But I just think that before you judge someone, I think it's important and I always want to say this. Before you judge someone harshly, put it back on yourself and try to put yourself in their place. And with celebrities, you know, I have people tell me just about every week that that's what you bargain for. When you became a celebrity, then all bets are off. I could say anything about you. I could say anything to you. I could do anything to you that I feel like doing because that's a part of being a celebrity. And I don't agree with that. I think that people still should respect and you should think about it before you believe everything that you read because some of it is such... And you know, people are just very quick to believe that. And I couldn't say that in the book because I was like, I don't want to sound like I'm... And you can't say it on TV. Yeah. Well, I'm saying it here and somebody's recording and they going to put it up. But I mean, it's just the truth. Give people the benefit of a doubt and don't always think the worst of everybody's human and everybody is not the same. So, don't lump everybody in one category no matter what. You know, give people the benefit of the doubt.

I want you to know that although my sister was your mentee, not me, you have so inspired me throughout the years. I have looked up to you. I have tried to find out as much about your strategy and your way of doing things. And I want you to know I really do feel that God sent you here at a time where sisters needed you more than we even knew. I thank you and I will keep you in prayer forever.

Well, the same for you because you are, I mean talk about legacy. You are a legend and what you accomplished in your life has been, I mean that was impossible how you started. I was just sharing the story with my assistant and my friend Trell how you just paved the way and just did it with dignity and grace and still were a great mother. And so the feeling is absolutely mutual.

Well, Alfred didn't grow up to be Beyonce, so I'm a little disappointed in my skills, please.

Can we give her a big round of thank you up? You are a great audience. Thank you so much.

I know you're this. Okay. Wait. We have presents. Okay. We impress you all baby.

I can read your thoughts right now. Everyone from A to Z.