Content in and of itself is social. It is a point of connection. It's funny. I think back to the early days of Snapchat. Nobody thought Snapchat could work. I mean, our early investors we went to talk to were like, 'Yeah, good luck. Try competing with Facebook. They've got it locked down.'
Your wife Miranda is so involved in fashion. You kind of like learn this new vantage point through her.
You know, I wear the same thing every day. So, I did give you... I hadn't noticed. Our first date, which was to a yoga class. Now, we're really going down memory lane here. Anyways,
Wait, that's so brave. Were you even... I called my sister and I was like, 'What do I do?'
It's like not just like the sex talk, it's like the tech talk, too.
Oh, shoot. That was good.
Yeah, you ate with that. You ate with that. I'm Sheree. I'm Jean.
And we're the Tiger Sisters.
We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. So, we are here today with Evan Spiegel, the CEO and co-founder of Snapchat. Snap has shaped how people communicate around the world. Snap has 1 billion monthly active users and AR lenses in the Snapchat camera, which I helped develop with Evan aka filters while I was at Snap, is used more than 9 billion times a day. Evan famously turned down a $3 billion offer from Mark Zuckerberg when Evan was just 23 years old because he believed so deeply in the vision and future of Snapchat. There are many podcasts out there of Evan sharing Snap's origin story and his philosophy for scaling to a multi-billion dollar business. Those topics dive into the past. We are here today to discuss the future. Is Gen Z cooked? Evan Spiegel, welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm really, really been looking forward to this. So, lots to cover. It's fun.
Okay, so the first topic that we really want to talk about is Gen Z because I feel like when I was working here at Snap with you, we were obsessed with Gen Z, right? Like we were obsessed with understanding them, empathizing with them, and building the best possible product for them. So, I think let's start with just a really open-ended question. What do you think about Gen Z?
Well, I think first of all, you know, young people in general have always been most receptive to Snapchat as a new technology. Young people are open to learning about new things. They're naturally curious. And so, starting Snapchat out of school, of course, you know, we kicked off the growth of Snapchat with our friends who just, you know, started using it to communicate with, you know, we all were using it to communicate with one another. And then over time obviously it grew across the world, across the nation as you know, now reaches nearly a billion monthly active users as you mentioned. So I think for us, so much of what we do here at Snap is actually not oriented around a specific generation or a demographic. It's more about inventing fundamentally new technology that empowers people to express themselves or live in the moment or use a new augmented reality tool or lens. But we find that new technology is just most readily adopted by young people in general. I think as I look at Gen Z specifically, and we've got a Gen Zer at home, Flynn is 15. You know, I think it's a generation of realists. I think they've grown up in a really challenging environment, you know, and you contrast that with millennials or my generation where growing up in the '90s, I think there was a very optimistic, peaceful period of time. There was a huge amount of economic growth and opportunity. And then obviously millennials, you know, hit a bunch of speed bumps along the way with 9/11 or the financial crisis, the pandemic, but you know, that means that millennials went from sort of this optimistic and peaceful frame to hitting these speed bumps, right? And I think millennials still retain that optimism, but it's been shaped by reality. I think Gen Z grew up in that reality and that's a very different frame especially when you look at how Gen Z is positioned relative to boomers and the environment that they grew up in where education was actually affordable, where you could afford to buy a home, where job prospects weren't necessarily shaped by AI as they are today. And so what I see when I talk to Gen Z or Flynn's friends for example is just a realistic perspective that they've got to do the best they can with a really complicated world today.
Yeah. Does that resonate with you? Sheree is on the opposite end of the spectrum of Gen Z.
Yeah. Well, now that I'm kind of thinking about it, because Flynn is 15 and I'm 30, I'm like, can I even claim Gen Z at this point?
She's the cusp. I'm... Yeah. I think I'm trying to claim Gen Z because I am on the cusp. I'm Zelennial. So squarely like 1995 baby and so I'm like I get the best of both worlds. So I totally hear you. I think from the millennial side I was just like yeah I was there when MySpace was a huge thing and here on the Gen Z side I totally understand the new ways of internet adoption and being more fluid in how social media works.
I put her on the spot. I don't usually ask her questions. I want to ask you, Evan, what does Gen Z want from technology that you feel that millennials don't want or didn't have?
I'm not sure there are major generational differences. Like I think at the end, you know, a lot of this stuff comes down to what we really want as humans, right? And that is connection with other people. Fundamentally, what makes us human is our desire for relationships. And I think people want to express that through technology because we can't always be in the same room together with our friends. Sometimes we're halfway around the world or we're at home when our friends, you know, are playing sports or something like that. And technology helps us stay in touch with the people that matter most to us. So I don't necessarily think there's a generational difference there. And I think, you know, we have a huge number of millennials who use our service and Gen Z or boomers, you know, even Gen Xers on Snapchat. So I think what I see cut across every generation is that real desire for human connection, human relationships.
Yeah, I totally feel that. But also in the same vein, when I'm somehow put into contact with Gen Alpha or I come across content that Gen Alpha is making, it feels like a completely different language. Does it feel that way to you or how do we break through and either speak to the youngest generation Gen Alpha and or create products for them or is it very similar to creating products for millennials?
Is Gen Alpha old enough to make content? What's Gen Alpha?
Like Skibidi Toilet, rizz, like you've heard that. I'm like what is that? You know, I need someone to... definitely heard that. I need someone to define that for me and also translate.
Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because I do think at its heart, right, at its core, content is social in nature, right? Whether it's, you know, older generations who grew up with television shows and talking about those shows together or now, you know, on the internet, I think, you know, different generations or friend groups are finding different pieces of content and sharing that content and it can go viral socially in different ways. But I think what really you're pointing out is that content in and of itself is social. It is a point of connection. And so I do think that's going to differ based on friend group or based on generation in some ways because you know when you're growing up a lot of your friends are also from school and they're similar ages to you. And so I do think we end up generationally being attracted to different types of content or different sorts of memes. But again I think the crosscutting undercurrent through all these generations is that desire for human connection and content is part of how we relate to one another. One thing when I think about Gen Alpha that's different is that similar to the way that we were the first generation to grow up with the internet, they're the first generation to grow up in an AI native world. So like how do you think that affects or changes Gen Alpha?
I've been thinking so much about this. So, you know it's really interesting because one of the biggest game changers as you mentioned for millennials was the internet. It actually allowed millennials to in many ways, in my opinion, leapfrog Gen X, right? And in fact, I've talked to a lot of people who said, you know, it's so crazy. I went to school to learn photography and while I was in school studying film photography, everything changed to digital and I felt like I was leaving school with a skill set that wasn't relevant anymore. And that was really frustrating for me. And I had to learn something totally new. And I think, millennials in the workplace, and certainly even in the home dynamic, young people became the folks who knew how to hook up the Wi-Fi router and could figure out how to help their parents log into the school email, right, to know what was going on. And so, I think, millennials through their use of the internet, were really able to just accelerate their growth and development as a generation. And I think it reinforces the optimism that millennials still have, right, which is that they really believe in the power of these technological tools. And I think, millennials are generally the parents of Gen Alpha. And so I actually think millennial parents and certainly the parents I talked to want young people to adopt AI tools, want to see how easy it is for them to build things and express themselves and create. And that to me makes me so optimistic about Gen Alpha because I think if they can grow up adopting these tools, use them to build things, to create businesses, to try new things, to learn way faster and in a personalized way, I think it'll be really, really meaningful and impactful. And I mean there's probably no better technology to accelerate learning than AI. And I think it's arriving at such an interesting and critical time for Gen Alpha when they're in that phase of just extraordinary learning and growth.
Yeah. I feel like when I reflect upon my own childhood, like growing up on the internet, I just like think back on things that I was doing. I remember in the third grade I remember those AOL chat rooms that were... I stayed away from those... message board. Okay, there were these message board that I remember sometimes I'm like was this a fever dream? But they had this message board that was all about horses and I love horses and it was basically this everyone just owned horses and you would raise horses and sell them to each other and there was no set currency. You just invented the currency and you would like so there was a ton of inflation. So you would buy and sell horses and then you would train them and then you would also breed them with each other and then you would race them against each other. And now I think back on it I was like what was I doing in these messages...
Learning about inflation?
Yeah. Yeah. I was like I was doing the most. So I'm just like what were you doing on the internet when you were young? Like do you have a memory that's similar to that where you were like wait was that real? Did that happen to me?
For me, it was less about the internet and more about all the graphic design tools. So, I was obsessed with graphic design really starting around middle school, you know, and I worked on my school yearbook and my school newspaper doing the layout and all that kind of thing. You know, and Adobe Flash, making my own little animations and little games and things like that. So, for me, computers in that period of time just represented like incredible tools for creativity. And that's what I loved the most growing up. Yeah,
Yeah, I was on... I don't know, it wasn't the internet, but I used a lot of creative tools as like a third or fourth grader, like remixing my own songs and designing like GarageBand clips and stuff that I'd share with Sheree and be like, 'Wait,'
She like burned these CDs for me of like 30 minute long songs and I would like listen to the whole thing.
It was... Well, looking back on it now, it sounds horrible, but it was like a creative outlet for me.
Yeah. And it was like a precursor to all the creation that you do today.
Oh yeah. The reason why like I can edit... Well, I think one of the reasons why I can edit our podcast and, you know, create the audio for it and like audio mix and all that stuff is because I've been doing it since like the third or fourth grade through those tools. Thank you, Apple.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting that we're talking about I guess like our early days with technology because we had Rahm Emanuel on our podcast maybe around three weeks ago and we were talking to him about technology and obviously social media came up and there's a ton of people like Rahm that are saying that we should ban social media for young people, people under 16 years old. There was also a New Zealand article about this. What are your thoughts on that? I think there's like a huge I guess new wave and maybe new drum beat of people saying this.
Yeah. Well, I think first and foremost like the safety and security of young people in online services is paramount and I think folks are right to be concerned about that and right to prioritize that, right? So I think that's critical. At the same time, I and I've certainly experienced this myself as a parent. I think young people and their maturity depends less on their age than it does on who they are as an individual. And there are certainly some teenagers that might be ready to use Snapchat to communicate with their friends and their family. And there are others who may not be ready for that responsibility yet. I think for us in our home like we feel comfortable with Flynn who's 15 using Snapchat. We know that he's using it to stay in touch with his friends and family and we think that's something that's actually really important for him, right? We know that relationships are key to mental health and wellbeing. That's certainly been reinforced by the research. And so I think for us in our family like an under 16 ban doesn't make sense because we see how much value Flynn gets from communicating with his friends and his family. So I guess I would say, you know, rather than arbitrary bans, I think the more thoughtful approach here is to actually develop clear rules and regulations for how social media is provided, especially to young people, but in general more broadly. And I would really advocate that the government does the work to develop those rules. I mean one of the things for example on Snapchat that's unique to our service relative to text messaging for example is that two people have to add each other before they communicate right and that adds a layer of safety. You have to double opt-in to a conversation right whereas if someone has my phone number they can just shoot me a text right and start bothering me even if I don't want to get that message. And so I think those sorts of precautions and things like not having a public friends list on Snapchat, right? Makes it much harder for people to figure out who someone's friends with or otherwise bully them because of that. So I think things like privacy, things like the protections of people double opting in to conversations are really important ways that we can help protect young people in addition to all the work we do to find bad actors and remove them from our service. So overall, I would say like a really just thoughtful approach to making sure there are rules and regulations in place, I think will help everyone feel more comfortable with providing these communication services to young people, which are so important to their well-being. And I think as I mentioned, that's certainly been proven out by independent research on Snapchat specifically, but also more broadly when social media is used in moderation, the research actually shows it's correlated with overall well-being.
We love... we cite a lot of research on Tiger Sisters. So, I'm glad you brought that up. We're always talking about like case studies and research. So, your own brand.
I love how you were talking about for your approach to Flynn, it was more so on a personal level, right? It's like assessing individually, do I think my child is ready for social media, for these messaging apps, for Snapchat. So, I think a lot of parents who are watching would be interested in your discrete approach to that. Like what are the factors and the features that you're thinking through of your individual child to be like, 'Okay, are they ready or do they need a little bit more time?'
Yeah. Like how do you think about it?
Well, it's so interesting, right? Because teens in particular, and we were just having this conversation with Flynn and his mom the other day, where teenagers are at a point in their lives where they want a lot more freedom. And part of I think the conversation with teens is saying with that freedom comes great responsibility. Okay. And so let's talk about okay you want to stay out a little bit later then you need to really stay in touch with your mom and let her know where you're going and whose friend's house you're at and what is the phone number of the parent who's there so we can get in touch with them and you need to come back home when you say you're going to come back home. And that helps us build trust. Right? So when you demonstrate that responsibility, then we feel more comfortable giving you more freedom. And I think, that doesn't just pertain to social media. It pertains to all aspects of a teenager's life. And we want Flynn to be able to go out and have fun with his friends and begin that journey of independence, right? At 15, he's 3 years away from being an adult, right? And leaving our home entirely. That doesn't just happen when he turns 18. That's a gradual process of growth and development. So for us I think in our family depending on what he wants to do or how he wants to spend his time it's always a conversation of balancing that sort of freedom with the real responsibilities of growing up.
Yeah. So it's like an ongoing conversation.
I think it has to be. Yeah.
Yeah. Wait. I love that because I am now realizing in real time I've never had a conversation about technology with... you know when parents sit you down and like they have a conversation with you about things. I never had one about technology and like how to use it in a safe and thoughtful way.
I know. It's like the new conversation to have now. It's like not just like the sex talk, it's like the tech talk, too.
Oh, shoot. That was good.
Yeah, you ate with that. You ate with that.
And this is actually a great opportunity for me to share the Keys, which if you go online, it's a program that we put together that's all about online safety that teens can do together with their parents. And so I think sometimes parents don't even know where to start that conversation. And also, sometimes the conversation isn't focused enough on the real risk, serious risk online, like extortion or drugs. These are things that can have a really serious impact and negative impact on people's lives. But often times they're not talked about or people don't know enough about them and schools aren't spending time educating young people about these risks. So, we built out our own program called the Keys that parents can do together with their teens. It even has like a little pop quiz in there, too, so you can follow along. But I think it's a really good way to anchor the conversation and make sure it's hitting the most important online safety topics.
Yeah, I feel like it should be covered in health class.
It probably should. This should be like curriculum.
It should be included in health class.
I mean, this is a whole other conversation about school in general and what we should be teaching young people, but certainly I think online safety is a big part of that.
Well, I have a confession and also like a memory kind of unlocked. Yeah. Right now where I think I was like maybe like 11 or 12 and I was in like a kids chat room.
And you're not supposed... there's like rules around this chat room. You're not allowed to like reveal like personal information about yourself. But someone's like where is everyone from? And then I said where I was from and then I was banned from that chat room and then my like AOL account was taken down and I had to like get it back. This was you know when I was a pre-teen. So, like I feel like there should be... I mean with that conversation like what should you and should you not say online? What can you and can you not post online for safety reasons?
And what are some really quick and easy ways to get help on Snapchat if you're being bullied? You can, you know, press and hold, report the message right away. Get help from our trust and safety team in seconds or minutes. And I think that's a really big deal when it comes to online safety. I do think that technology and the advancements here are so profound and I think it's going to mean that online services like Snapchat continue to get safer and safer.
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I think we're both futurists. Like I am just so optimistic about the future and I genuinely think that tech has a role in shaping the future and society for the better. I think you're the same. I'm pretty sure. And I guess like one of the topics that I'm personally interested in, I think you're also interested in is HCI. So human computer interaction. Is that something that you are actively thinking about? Is that something that you think is like part of our future? Is that something you're building towards? Like tell us a little bit about that.
Our mission with Spectacles is to make computing more human. I think if you look at the history of computing interfaces, right, the most fundamental way to break them down is basically into an input and an output, right? And there was this first big sort of revolution was the keyboard and the mouse, right? I'm skipping a few revolutions, but I think in terms of personal computing, the keyboard and the mouse as inputs were a really, really big deal. And then obviously the graphical user interface as an output. I think then you sort of had another big leap around the iPhone, although it in many ways resembled the personal computer. It combined the input and the output into one touchscreen which I think was another really big leap forward in terms of the way that we use computing. But I think as I look and I think it certainly made computing more natural right I mean even if you look at a young child they can pick up an iPhone and immediately figure out how to swipe around and move around because whereas it might have taken them a little while to learn how to use a keyboard right so I think these interfaces are becoming more natural. The next big step for us with Spectacles which is our intelligent eyewear that overlays computing in the world around you is that rather than having a screen as an interface computing is actually embedded in the world around you and you just use your hands and your voice and you interact with computing the same exact way that you would interact with a friend or with the world around you. And I think that's sort of the next evolution in terms of the way that we just remove more of this friction from computing. And then to put it in sort of my input and output kind of framework, the big step change there, the big difference there is that computing output happens through see-through lenses in the glasses. And the input is just your natural hands and your voice. So that's certainly something that we're really excited about. And then, you know, we can talk futuristic sensors and all this kind of thing, but I think that's sort of the next big step as it pertains to computing and interfaces.
So that's the next step. And then do you remember that episode of Black Mirror where they had the grain? That's my favorite episode.
I never saw it. All right, I'll have to check it out.
So, it's basically this like micro computer that is implanted into your head so that you can actually record and save everything that you experience day-to-day and then you can play it back. And so, the premise of the episode is that this couple, they have this big fight and so they're like, 'Well, let's play it back. Like, let's look at the grain.' Anyway,
Well, I guess that's my question is that would you opt into that? Like do you accept that future or do you reject that future?
Well, if you go back to the founding of Snapchat, I mean, one of the fundamental things we questioned was why is everything saved forever online? It makes no sense, right? The world that we live in is largely ephemeral, right? Almost all of our conversations except for this one and maybe a few here and there are not recorded at all. And in fact, a lot of the way that the internet worked at the time and the online world worked at the time, saving and storing everything was distorting human relationships because people feel less comfortable expressing themselves or less comfortable sharing a photo where they think they don't look their best. Or a photo of maybe a more intimate moment like they're in the hospital and they don't want to save that or post that publicly. They just want to share it with a friend. And so I think that was one of the first things we did 15 years ago to say technology should actually resemble the way we interact in the real world not create this whole other paradigm just because we can with technology. So I would say overall, I would be concerned about that sort of future where everything is recorded. I think privacy is so foundational to human expression. I think it's so foundational to creativity. I think it's the way that you can try out a bad idea without feeling embarrassed. I think it's so important to a healthy functioning democracy. So broadly speaking, I don't think that a future where everything's recorded and saved forever would be constructive or healthy for humanity. Maybe for a scary autocracy or something but certainly not the world that we'd like to see.
But would you be open to something being like incorporated in your body?
Yeah. Like inside my body.
Yeah. No, I'm like, 'No, I'm not just under the skin.' Like, like a piercing.
I mean, I don't even have a tattoo. You know what I mean?
I'm not... No, a belly button ring. Like an AI belly button ring. I think OpenAI may be working on that.
Their next product launch.
They're going to hardware. Belly button ring.
She almost got a belly button ring when she...
What? I stopped her from it.
This was freshman year of college. I don't have one. She doesn't have one. What? But isn't she so lucky that I stopped?
This is what sisters are for.
That is what sisters are for. Wow. Put on blast with Evan.
If it's a clip on, I might.
Okay, you heard it here. Evan's going to try on a clip on belly button ring.
Only if it's an AI clip on belly button.
Clip on belly button. Wait a minute.
So Evan, as you were talking about the world in front of you and also experiencing that world with Spectacles on, we want to talk about AR and your conviction in AR. You believed in augmented reality long before it was obvious to anyone else. What did you see in AR and how it fits into our daily lives that other people didn't see?
I love the real world. I think the real world is great. I think it's incredibly beautiful. I think there are so many wonderful things to experience. I think that, you know, relationships with friends and family are like what make life worth living. And I think so much of computing for so long has said, you know, you have to actually leave that world and go sit in front of a desktop or stare down at a tiny screen to get the value of computing. And that trade-off has just always felt so unfair to me. I mean, I remember growing up, and to use a computer, I had to go in the computer lab at lunchtime, right? Everyone else is playing at recess and I had to go in the computer lab to work on the yearbook and put it all together. Now today it's a little more convenient. You can carry your computer with you in your pocket, but then I think, you're sitting at the dinner table and someone's staring down at their phone instead of finding a way to connect or play a game together or have fun. And that just breaks my heart. Like I don't think that's good enough when it comes to technology and when it comes to the future of computing. And so very early on when we were experimenting with augmented reality and we saw the power of lenses that people were using on their phones, it just seems silly that people were interacting with AR in this tiny little screen, right? I mean, it almost looks like staring through a paper towel tube or something at the world when you're holding up your phone to interact with augmented reality just seems so limiting and it requires you to use your hands to hold the phone. And so, you know, we're humans. We love using our hands for other things. We want to be able to multitask. And so this idea that computing requires so much from us that it takes us out of the real world and out of the moment just feels so limiting and unfair in terms of the capacity of technology to change the world. So quite a long time ago now, I mean 12 years ago or something like that, we started working on Spectacles and with the idea of making a computer that's totally different, a computer that fits into a pair of glasses that allows you to put computing in the world around you that allows you to share those experiences. So if you're sitting across the table from someone having dinner and you're wearing Spectacles, you can actually build something together or play together or learn together. And so it takes computing from being this really single-player experience that it has been for decades and turns it into something that's shared. And I think that's really inspiring and exciting to me.
Yeah. I think the thing about lenses is it decreases the barrier to being creative. Like you can just easily, throw on a lens and use that to not only interact with people, interact with the world, but you feel like you're doing something fun and creative.
I think that origin of lenses was so helpful and powerful to Snapchat. In the early days of Snapchat, people said, 'Why would I take a selfie? That doesn't make any sense.' But as soon as you gave people a new way to express themselves or vomit a rainbow or put on funny dog ears or whatever, people wanted to share those moments with their friends and it became an opportunity to connect or to share that folks otherwise didn't have. And so, that real invitation to create, I think, was so important in the early days of lenses and in terms of building that foundation to the platform we have today.
Yeah. And I feel like that tenant of creativity obviously it's a core pillar of Snapchat and I think it very much stems from you like I think that creativity is very important to you personally. So I mean can you just talk a little bit about that? Like what is the role of creativity in your life? Like how do you tap into being creative and why is it so important to you?
Yeah, it's funny. I just can't turn it off. You know what I mean? I'm constantly inspired by all sorts of stuff. Primarily by other people, right? And the people who use our service or our team members who've got great fun ideas. I really love coming up with new ideas and playing around with different ways of seeing the world and I just find it endless. I was in the car this morning and I came up with a new idea that I'm very excited about. So it really put a little bounce in my step coming into the office. Belly Button AI is going to be big. It's going to be big. We're launching it in collaboration with the Tiger Sisters. Going to take off, co-marketing and the whole thing. We got it figured out.
I don't claim that actually.
So yeah. So I don't know. It is something that just brings me so much joy and I think the most fun part is like doing it together in a team, right? Because you can take something that's a little seed of an idea and so quickly build on it and iterate when you've got other people who you can be creative with.
Do you get inspiration? I guess very tactically from going to museums or art or architecture, reading magazines, like what do you do to get inspired by the world around you? Is it consuming like movies or like what do you...
Yeah, what a great question. So the reason why going to a museum can be inspiring or traveling can be inspiring is just that it breaks your regular routine. I think that to me is like one of the most important things for creative people, but also just for myself. I think every now and then it's so important and I'm a very routine oriented person like I like to get up at the same time, do the same thing, you know, I really operate my life that way. For me, it becomes so important to break that up with a trip to the museum or travel or something like that just to change that mental space. And for some reason, just changing the frame of reference or breaking the routine can generate so many new ideas. But, I also have ideas when I'm exercising. So, it's a non-stop kind of thing. You know,
Yeah. I feel like having a creativity practice is something that's just really important that we don't talk about enough in society. Like I feel like it changes a person to have that and then in changing a person it changes society at large.
I really love that you said that and the thing that really inspired me the most, when I was at Stanford I was in the product design program and what I love the most about the product design program is that their fundamental thesis is that everyone is creative but it is suppressed by fear and by the events you go through as you get older. You look at young people all the time they're constantly creative and building things and drawing and then as we get older we suppress that and we don't share our new crazy ideas and we don't make that time or space to be creative. And what the product design program did was to say every single person is creative and in fact rather than waiting for lightning to strike or the apple to fall out of the tree and bop you on the head, what we think is most important is that you have a repeatable process to be creative. And so the product design program teaches this repeatable process where you start with need finding by talking to people and understanding things that they don't like or things they wish they could improve or that kind of thing. You then iterate on a bunch of different ideas and solutions to those problems. You take them back to those people and say, 'What do you think?' You iterate some more and get more feedback. You test, you prototype, and then ultimately you end up at the end of that process with a really cool new product or idea. And I think by taking that sort of amorphous or scary part of creativity away by creating this structured, repeatable process, they empower so many people to be creative.
Yeah. I think it's like learning the process, but then it's a lifelong journey to continue to learn and exercise it, right? Because you took that... Sheree took an improv class when she was at Stanford.
And was that a good use of my tuition money? I don't know. But well, to be taught by a professional clown.
It was in the Stanford theater department. This is when I was a business school student.
But it was like mixed with you with grad students, undergrads.
Yeah. And it was a good way to be creative and like going from my public speaking communications class at the business school like walking over to the theater department like okay improv class time. They are kind of tied and related but it was a great space to feel creative and one of our friends Jim Keys says creativity is intelligence having fun.
Which I absolutely love that.
Stanford Business School seems so awesome. I got a chance to audit a business school class as a sophomore in college and I was just like wow this seems like college but like way better and more fun and less stressful than like you don't have to worry about your GPA and you're learning for the curiosity of it all. It was a fabulous experience.
On this thread of creativity we wanted to talk about the Met Gala that you went to recently. This is probably the first podcast that you've been on that asks you about that.
No one has ever asked me about it. Yeah.
Well, I mean, from the outside since we haven't been yet, but...
Yet, but I mean, the Met Gala is iconic and iconic in its fashion history in its use of creativity. And so we just wanted to ask about your experience there. Is it as magical as it looks from the outside?
It's pretty magical. Yeah, it's really cool. It's such an amazing... Not going to lie, it's pretty magical. It's an amazing celebration of fashion. And I'm not sure like too many people know the history of the gala, right? Which is that when that costume collection was created, it had to be funded separately from the museum's endowment. So, they created space for the collection, but they said, 'If you want this collection here, you're going to have to self-fund this, right? You're going to have to raise the money to fund the collection on an ongoing basis.' Because back then fashion wasn't viewed as art in the way that it is so widely appreciated as art today. And so I
I think the history and what that celebrates is so meaningful. And to me, obviously the designers, the creativity is incredible, but the seamstresses, the people who put together this just exquisite piece of fashion. I mean, it's really impressive. It's so cool. So cool to see.
Yeah. I mean, I can tell that you are genuinely interested in it and you genuinely love it. The details that go into it, is that partially because your wife Miranda is so involved in fashion and you kind of learn this new vantage point through her?
Yeah. I mean, I wear the same thing every day. So I hadn't noticed. She was like, 'Honey, what do you think about me wearing the same thing every day?' I was like, 'I don't know. I mean, you could try it, I guess.' She's really passionate about fashion and that's something that inspires me. She knows so much about it and she's got great taste. So yeah, it's something that I've definitely grown to know more about and appreciate more being together. But I think where we sort of our point of connection is that appreciation of the creativity and of the design, whether that's fashion or anything else. But it's been so much fun to learn from her and she's certainly brilliant in that space.
