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I think the responsibility of a leader is first and foremost to give energy — that is to say, to give the desire to do things. It's this ability to say we're not stupider than anyone else, and so if we set ourselves a goal, we organize ourselves, and with a good sense of timing, we'll get there. That's a principle we've shared and on which we're all very firm at Edenred. You have a responsibility because you are the best person, but for this diversity to be exercised at these levels of responsibility, you have to create the potential. The exact words of my father were the following: he said, 'The question is not whether Bertrand is intelligent. The question is what he will do with the intelligence he has received.' And in fact, it's extremely profound. It's the recognition that we have received a form of intelligence and that we have the responsibility to cultivate it, to maintain it, to develop it. So that has probably been, and still is, a driving force and a marker, and I think about it every day.
Hello everyone, I'm Alexandre Mars and you're listening to Pause, the podcast where we take the time to understand how to make the impossible possible by exploring the exceptional journeys of my guests — whether they're artists, business leaders, entrepreneurs, athletes, or activists. Resilience, success, inspiration — they reveal themselves during a Pause. Welcome. The bosses of the CAC 40 — their status, their salary, their responsibilities — can fascinate, annoy, or intrigue. Today on Pause, I invite you to meet one of them and discover the behind-the-scenes of the daily life of a top executive, specifically the head of the Edenred group, the world's leading issuer of meal vouchers and the first to digitalize them. What is his daily life like? What is his vision of leadership? How can our childhood influence our ways of acting and deciding? How to reinvent and innovate when you've been running a company for so many years? He answers us during a Pause, looking back on his journey and taking us behind the scenes of his role. Welcome, Bertrand Dumazy.
Thank you, Alexandre. How are you?
Very well, it's a great joy to take the time for a Pause with you. Yes, you're the CEO — I just mentioned it — of a large group, a very large group. It's thousands, tens of thousands of employees. Sometimes there's this vision of a world moving very fast that can be quite stressful. I see you, I know you, I sense a certain distance. Is it a real distance that you manage to take? Is it an inner calm that radiates onto others? Does it still churn inside you, or do you manage to master this tension that is inherent to many companies and many jobs?
Yes, indeed. Edenred is present in 45 countries in a world that escapes us, a world in political upheaval. It's a year where about 2 billion citizens will go vote, with changes that could be major in economic zones that are important for the Edenred group. So yes, this job requires tension, passion, energy, but also the ability to take distance to keep a cool head and make good decisions.
And what is your daily life like? Is it decisions morning, noon, and night? Again, for people who listen to us, who watch us, who say, 'What is the daily life of a top executive?' Is it stress all the time? And how do you manage to take this distance? Are there moments where you have a bit of retreat, a bit of calm time?
Yes, it's stress all the time. My day starts in the morning because since we're present from Singapore to Santiago de Chile, when I sleep, the western part of the world is working. So when I wake up, I already have the news from the day that just ended in the West. So my days never really stop. The daily life of a CEO is first to get up early — I'm generally up between 5:30 and 6 in the morning. Then it's to inform myself about what happened during the night. I read my emails and once again, to try to understand what happened in the rest of the world. And then I still take the time to have lunch with my family when I'm in France, since I travel enormously.
How many days per year do you travel?
I travel at least about a hundred days a year, and that's been the case since always. Since always? Well, I was born a traveler. No, but in this role — for example, when I was president of the Deutsch group, I spent 15 days every month outside of France. I would start on Saturday, Sunday evening leaving Paris, flying to Singapore, then Tokyo, then Los Angeles, then New York, then back to Paris, and that every 15 days, every month. It's interesting, which explains my white hair, since I went white very quickly.
That said, I know that for you there's a place that brings you calm, a more peaceful moment — it's your family, and particularly your wife. And your wife, even when you told her early on, 'You know what, 15 days a month I'm not here,' did she easily understand and accept that you could be quite absent for work? Was that easy, or was it a conversation that needed to happen?
I'm lucky to have a wonderful wife. My friends tell me that my secret weapon is Françoise, and they're right. So we talked about it together. It's a decision made before accepting this responsibility, with full knowledge of the facts. It's something we discussed, and Françoise, once again, told me, 'Listen, if you love the mission, if you love the people you're going to do it with, you have to do it, and we'll organize ourselves.' Knowing that Françoise also tells me that what she considers to be a blessing is not having me on top of her all the time, which is probably a good thing. But above all, Françoise tells me, 'When you're here, you're really here.' So you manage to achieve that quality time, that moment when you're here, you close the hatches and take care of the people you love. Yes, I think it's a necessity for them, but it's also a necessity for me. For example, my cell phone never enters my bedroom. It stays at the edge of my bedroom, but it doesn't come in.
We'll continue with a 'false truth' game. I was just talking about the role of a top executive, but it's also a world that's sometimes a bit obscure for many people. We talk about the CAC 40 world because it's a model, sometimes of clichés. But what I wanted to explore with you is exactly these pauses. I'll give you statements and you'll tell me if, in your opinion, it's true or not that much. Are you ready?
You necessarily need to have an elite education to become a CAC 40 CEO.
False. False. Do you have the numbers? Yes. No, I don't have — no. But in reality, what you need to be a CAC 40 CEO is not a diploma, it's a journey that prepares you for this responsibility. That said, to have the numbers — it's funny that you have this perception — 80% of CAC 40 companies today are led by people who have rather done what we call elite education in France, either a top business school or an engineering school. So there's still a perception that it's not sufficient, but it's still necessary most of the time. In any case, the statistics show it's quite necessary. But I think this ratio is decreasing. And above all, there's hope: when you look at what's done in other countries, it's less true. That is to say, if you go to Germany, Switzerland, you have about 30% of CEOs — the equivalent of the CAC 40 — who were apprentices. That's beautiful.
That's quite beautiful. Maybe it's our preparatory class system that prevents that a little. And I know that education is a major topic for you. You know it's the case for me too — I created an organization called Infinit' that aims to counteract this and try to bring to these best schools in France, but also in the world, young people who are extremely deserving but come from working-class backgrounds, so that this model can also evolve a bit. Because indeed, even today, you need to attend certain schools, and so we need to bring real diversity into schools. Second cliché: is the CAC 40 too masculine?
Well, that one is easy — it's probably not feminine enough.
Well, you're putting it on the negative side — I'll put it on the positive side.
But things are changing. That is to say, we have a pool of female high-potential talent that keeps growing. And so I think parity will gradually be established.
What you mean by that — I know it's also important to you — is what was decided more than 10 years ago with a law called Copé-Zimmermann first, then Rixain after, which allowed for parity on boards of directors and now in executive committees. Was it easy for you to implement this parity in the executive committee at Edenred?
So, the path we chose is obviously a path of feminization, but while respecting a principle that is very important to me, which is meritocracy. That is to say, a man or a woman has the responsibility they have at Edenred because they are the best person for that responsibility. So at Edenred, feminization happened quite quickly. When I look at the top 500 of Edenred, we started with about 20% women and we're now at 36%. And why do I take the top 500? Because it's by creating this talent reservoir that feminization will happen at every level of the organization, while respecting meritocracy. And that's a principle we've shared and on which we're all very firm at Edenred. You have a responsibility because you are the best person, but for this diversity to be exercised at these levels of responsibility, you have to create the potential.
Last cliché — to know if it's a cliché, in your opinion, are top executives often close to politicians?
Well, I see that you're crossing your arms, and when you cross your arms, it means you need to think. So, I think it all depends on your sector of activity. That is to say, there are sectors that have a very strong impact on employment, on the purchasing power of the French, and therefore force you to have proximity with power to try to understand and try to align. There are also activities that are strategic for the future of France, and so when you lead strategic activities, you must have a dialogue with the government, whatever it may be, to best manage the interests of France. I was CEO of an activity called Deutsch, which makes electrical connectors for harsh environments. A large part of the connectors for Ariane rockets or missiles used by the French army were made by Deutsch. When a North American actor arrived to buy Deutsch, we obviously had conversations with the French government to try to understand what fell under French sovereignty and how it could be protected. So I think that in general, when you have activities that are either regulated or have a strong impact on the purchasing power of the French or the lives of the French, or on French sovereignty, it's a duty to have an intelligent, nourished, and regular dialogue with the other authorities of the country you're in.
Let's talk a little about your childhood. You grew up in northern France, in Tourcoing. You have a fairly large family, right? Because you're not two, three, four, five...
I'm the youngest of six siblings.
So you're four boys, two girls, and you're the youngest. Your father is a teacher, your mother is a homemaker. It happens to me quite regularly to talk with friends who are the youngest or the first or the second — each time, these are things that somewhat shape who we become, the people we are, our decisions. You never won anything at home, you were always the youngest, the little one who couldn't necessarily fight. You must have certainly found tricks and ways to exist.
I only knew the position of youngest, and I didn't choose it. But I think that deep down, it's actually much easier to be among the youngest than among the eldest. First, parents aren't trained to be parents, so the model is tested and it's probably rougher on the eldest than on the youngest. So I think I benefited from the fact that my parents' education model was optimized when my brother and I arrived. The second thing is that parents get tired — they let go of quite a few things they didn't let go of with the eldest. The third thing is that the eldest go off to higher education, etc. So we probably have more privileged time with our parents when we're among the youngest. So overall, I think it's a great chance to be the youngest compared to being among the eldest. For all the people who are the youngest, you may lose a lot of things, but there are certainly positive things.
You look at the glass half full. The glass half empty is that your brother was born 11 years before you, and your parents passed away when you were less than 40. You had 11 years less of life with your parents than the eldest. So that's the price to pay.
It amuses me because we were talking about being the youngest. I recently had one of the greatest designers — he was elected designer of the year — Mathieu Lehanneur. Mathieu Lehanneur, he designed the Olympic cauldron, the torch, he does an enormous amount of things. And when I talked about his relationship with — he came from a large family — and I said, 'You're the youngest,' he told me, 'You just explained my problem.' Because being the youngest isn't very positive in a way. And he told me, in a quite enlightened way actually, he said, 'That's the reason why I certainly wanted to do all this, to exist, so that I wouldn't be someone who was never seen.' Because he told me, I think he was the seventh, he didn't exist. You, it's a bit different — you existed, but don't you think that doing everything you've been doing all these years is never enough? You keep doing more and more — it's not just going to HEC, it's going to Harvard. Do you think there's a connection or not?
That's a delicate question. No, I — well, I can tell you that at home, there was a children's table and an adult table. The children ate in the kitchen, and beyond a certain age, you moved to the adult table. I remember very well my first time at the adult table, where I hadn't understood that you weren't supposed to jump into conversations — you had to wait until you were given the floor. Not having understood this rule, I jumped into a conversation at the age of 10, and I still remember my mother putting down her cutlery, looking me in the eyes, and saying, 'Mousse, you'll speak when your turn comes. But since your turn never comes, you'll be quiet.' Which was a way of saying, listen, you're going to let the adults talk first, because having conversations isn't an easy thing. So I probably developed a rather combative character when it comes to speaking up. The second thing I realized is that there wouldn't be a second serving — dishes pass only once. And since I was served last, I had to make sure the others didn't take too much, otherwise your portion becomes the meager portion. So you'd make plans beforehand, you'd talk to your siblings, saying 'leave me a little bit.' Or I listened to my older siblings' advice, who every time I went to a sports camp told me, 'Make sure to sit at the girls' table.' And I'd say, 'Why?' They'd say, 'Because life is more fun with girls, and they eat less, so you'll get bigger portions.'
We're in those years — what did you dream about? We're in these young years, 10, 12, 15 years old — what do you dream about when you're in this loving family that certainly has its difficulties too, but is loving, with siblings? Is there something that really makes you dream at that point? Whether in sports — I know you always loved sports a lot, gymnastics — or afterwards, did you imagine being the next Tony Parker or a veterinarian, or business? What was your dream?
So I had many dreams. You laugh a lot. Yes, I dreamed a lot. My dream was to change the world and try to find — yes, probably. And the first profession I had considered was being a surgeon, telling myself when you're a surgeon, you'll be able to repair the living. It happens that one of my uncles is a surgeon, and one day he told me, 'So Bertrand, what would you like to do in your life?' I told him, 'I'd like to be a surgeon like you.' He told me, 'You know, in the family, there are those who tremble and those who don't tremble.' And so, hold out your hands — he put a sheet of paper on my hands and he said, 'Unfortunately, you belong to those who tremble, so I advise you against a career in surgery.' So Uncle Marc told me that. So the dream of being a surgeon, I let it go. When you hear that, you say OK, it's not that serious, we'll find other things to change the world. The second dreams I had were dreams of travel, because my father, who was in the navy, had been posted in Indochina and then in Tunisia, and he would tell us about his travels. And so I told myself it was really wonderful. We traveled, but in France — in winter in the Jura, in summer in Carnac. They were really great vacation moments all together, but it was essentially in France. So very quickly, my dream was to discover the world. I had the chance to have cousins who lived in the United States, and so very quickly, one of my dreams was to spend time in the United States, which I did from the age of 18. I dreamed of being a journalist — that is to say, going to meet people and having them share their experiences to accelerate my own development.
As for sports, I gave up on that quite quickly. Why? Because my brothers were very sporty, especially my brother Yves who was a French fencing champion, etc. He was really talented, and I quickly realized that I couldn't even reach his ankle. So the dreams of being a great athlete were dreams I quite quickly forgot. But quite quickly, I also told myself, what interests you is projects, large-scale projects where you can have an impact. So the profession of CEO interested me quite quickly. No, I think from the age of 14 or 15, I was quite entrepreneurial. So you see, I was a scout for years, and I was probably a nightmare for the parent chaperones, because there was a camp to organize and I'd say, 'Let's go to Corsica!' And that was it — I'd found the terrain, etc. And the parents would tell me, 'But that's out of reach — we're in Tourcoing, the budgets are quite limited, and it's going to make everyone uncomfortable.' And I'd say, 'No, no, it's fine, we'll organize evenings, we'll fundraise, and it won't cost the parents anything.' So you see, when you're 10, you start at the table, at 14 you start making projects. They'd say, 'It's not your job to do that.' But so I can imagine what a poison I was for the parent group leaders, because I was a rather dangerous animal with somewhat crazy ideas who found ways to fund them.
You're going to do what's called an elite education, since you do a preparatory class at Ginette, which is one of the best prep schools in France, and then you do HEC. And that's not enough for you. And it's not enough because there's certainly an HEC wound — it's an exceptional school, but I think you might have liked to go to another school. But in any case, the truth is that you see it as — the fact of not having been accepted, failing — that's how you experienced it. But you failed at the oral exam at HEC, since you passed the written, and at the oral you failed. And for you, it's not possible — it's your first big failure. For you, at school, you were always first, all the time.
No, I was always in the top three, excuse me.
Yes, but the reality is that doing quite a bit of sports, quite a bit of scouting activities and many other things, I had a practice of schoolwork that wasn't disciplined enough. And I learned to work in preparatory class. And so it takes a little bit of time. And it's true that yes, I failed at the HEC oral exam, and I told myself, listen Bertrand, that's part of your improvement process — you didn't succeed at the best this time, but other opportunities will present themselves. And in fact, when I was in Los Angeles, I met someone, Daniel, who was at Harvard, and who told me, 'You should do Harvard.' And in fact, my life is populated with people I've met who told me, 'I could see you doing that,' and I became interested in the thing. And that's how, probably driven by the desire to resume studies but also by the desire to say, come on, this time maybe you'll manage to do the best.
I like it because HEC is an exceptional school. It's funny that you say that, because in this book that you know, I have a chapter on encounters. It's true that encounters are often an important point in all of our lives. You meet this Daniel in Los Angeles at that moment who says something to you, you listen to him. The most important thing in encounters is often listening — not knowing and positioning yourself in that moment to say, tell me what you think. This small scar from not having won what you imagined would be the victory with HEC still makes you do the best, because Harvard is certainly considered the best school in the world. So when you arrive there, is everything erased? Are you happy, proud? Do you swagger a little or not at all? Because I've met quite a number of young students who, even today, when they come out of these schools that are considered prestigious, are put forward and even think they've made it. We realize with time that it was just one step. How were you at 25?
Listen, probably a bit arrogant, because you're the product of your environment. You have 850 classmates from all over the world who are objectively very good, and you follow the teachings of people who are very good and recognized — Michael Porter and Robert Merton, Nobel Prize in economics — with exams that go well. And so I was probably also the product of this environment, with a certain form of arrogance, but also probably a certain form of humility. Because the most important thing I learned at Harvard is that I better understood what I didn't know. That is to say, you read 650 cases — it's the case method. A case is presented, questions are asked, and in fact, 650 cases of 650 different situations in different industries, on different issues. I think the great teaching is to better understand and better evaluate what we don't know. And so I probably had a somewhat arrogant behavior, like young Harvard graduates, but also very filled with humility in understanding what we don't know, but with the fierce desire to know and to surround yourself well.
So you finish these studies, you're at Harvard. One essential thing your father said — it was in high school, if I'm not mistaken — he told you, 'Now we understand that you're someone who is on this path of succeeding in one part of your life. This life is professional, it's important.' When your father says what's important is to see what you're going to do with your intelligence — how did you apprehend that when you were 16, 17 years old? This phrase is exceptional because it puts you face to face with a great responsibility, which is basically — we're here for something other than just getting a good grade at school or just being nice to someone. It elevates us. What do you think about this, when your father tells you that?
So first, I remember very precisely the day and the place. And the exact words of my father were the following: he said, 'The question is not whether Bertrand is intelligent. The question is what he will do with the intelligence he has received.' And in fact, it's extremely profound. It's the recognition that we have received a form of intelligence and that we have the responsibility to cultivate it, to maintain it, to develop it. So that has probably been, and still is, a driving force for me and a marker, and I think about it every day. That is to say, when I lost my parents, one of my friends who had been through this before called me and asked, 'Do you think about your father every day?' I said yes. He asked, 'Do you think it will diminish with time?' And I said, I don't know. And he told me — he who had been through this door before — he said, 'Don't worry, the intensity won't decrease.' And so yes, this phrase — what are you going to do with the intelligence you've received — is a phrase I think about almost every day. And so what does it develop in me? Probably a very great curiosity — there are enormous areas of progress, there are so many things I don't know that I'd like to understand better. And then probably a very strong demand in my journey of progress.
We'll continue, we'll start with a friendly Pause. So we chatted with people close to you who obviously love you or appreciate you enormously, and we asked them if they could make a Pause, a question for you. We were talking about sports earlier — about you being very well ranked in gymnastics. So when I see you, it amuses me a little. I imagine that under 14, you were 3rd in France in gymnastics.
Yes, but once is enough, you know. I would have loved to be 3rd in France in sports once — I would have been very happy. You learned volleyball — is sport something important to you? Let's listen to this question from your friend, one of your best friends if not your best friend, Laurent.
Hi Bertrand, it's Laurent. As you know, I have the project of cycling from Beijing to Paris, and now that you're cheerfully chaining bike rides of 100 to 200 km, I'd like to know if you'd accept to join me for a few weeks during the crossing of the Celestial Mountains in Kyrgyzstan. And what would this shared adventure mean to you?
So thank you, Laurent. Laurent Guy — well, I'm very moved actually. Laurent is my friend, my brother. We met in our final year of high school and we've never left each other despite our very international paths. And it's true that we do a lot of cycling together, which is probably painful for him since he's about two to three times more talented than I've ever been, and painful for me because following him isn't easy, since in cycling it's important to be in someone's slipstream — you save 10 to 20% of your energy. And it turns out he waits for me, but not all the time, so I have great moments of solitude where I see him 500 meters ahead of me. So I see that, as usual, Laurent's ambition has grown, since he was talking about Beijing-Istanbul and now he's talking about Paris-Beijing, which considerably lengthens the route. You just caught that, didn't you? Yes, yes, I just caught it. So normally the project was Beijing-Istanbul or Istanbul-Beijing. And yes, I would love to be able to join him for certain stages. I'm not sure I'd be able to find the time or the energy to do the entire route.
Thank you, thank you for that question. Let's get back to your journey. You finish school, and sometimes like some of these young graduates, you have multiple paths possible — finance. You go into consulting. I find you at Bain. It's one of — we call them the MBB: McKinsey, Bain, BCG, or BCG, Bain. So they're the best in strategy consulting. You do various missions — did you enjoy those years?
Ah yes, it was truly wonderful years. First, because the missions we were given were fascinating. Secondly, because we did them with — there was a very special spirit at Bain, a spirit of strong mutual aid, from a firm that was growing strongly and with very high standards. So it was wonderful years, thanks to the people I met, with whom I'm still in contact, and years of learning and also years of opening to the world. Because thanks to Bain, in three years I had the chance to work quite little in France, quite a bit in Italy, a lot in England, and then I went to Bain in Los Angeles.
Do you recommend today to these young people coming out of these elite schools to start in consulting? Is that something you'd say every time — start there? Those two or three years of training are pretty incredible.
So I think there are many ways to train, and I would rather advise choosing a good boss. That is to say, at the start, you need to try to work with a good boss who wants to pass on knowledge and who wants to train you.
How do you find that? Because I started in a company, I don't know if it's the right path — maybe today we can know more than yesterday. But for you, it's more the boss than the industry?
Yes, I think that's the essential factor — it's the people you're going to work with. And it happens that in consulting firms, first, there aren't many people, there's very strong selectivity, and there's very important mentoring, because a manager in consulting can't get by without the consultants and the young associates. So there's necessarily a very strong learning and training. And then, since these are very intense experiences because you work a lot, the training happens at an accelerated pace. So what I simply want to say is that it's a very good path that should be considered. It's better to start at Edenred, probably, but it's worth considering. But there are many other paths too.
We find you afterwards in finance as an investment director at the investment fund BC Partners. Then you move to entrepreneurship, developing and creating a company called Constructo, a startup that makes construction site management software. There we're moving away. And then we find you in high-responsibility positions — after Deutsch, which we talked about earlier, Materis, Pentair, and finally Edenred from 2015. What interested me in this journey is that it's a path where I have trouble finding the connections, to be honest with you. Sometimes I told myself, there was an owner who had two companies, so maybe he liked you so much he wanted you to do great work for the other company too. But even I couldn't connect the dots. What are the connection points? Is it encounters at each time, people who inspired you who said, 'It's the right moment, it's an opening'? Because you're not a careerist — at least I haven't seen you as one. So why? Maybe your startup was complicated, maybe you had to go back to something else. Tell me about this connection that I haven't necessarily understood.
So what happens is, I work for BC Partners, and BC Partners is an investment fund. So around the table, you have the investors — in our case, us — the lawyers, the investment bankers, and the entrepreneurs. And I was looking at the entrepreneurs and telling myself, among these four communities, it's really this community that I want to belong to. Which is why I left BC Partners to set up Constructo and become an entrepreneur. Then, it happens that during the time I was at BC Partners, I met Jean-Paul Villot, who was the CEO of Neopost. And BC Partners lent me to Neopost to set up Neopost Online — that is, the online subsidiary of Neopost. And so I set that up in San Francisco for many months. And that created two things: first, it gave me the desire to be an entrepreneur, and the second thing is that I drew a lot of admiration for Jean-Paul Villot and his management team. Which is why, when the company I created was sold, Jean-Paul basically told me, 'Now that you've finished your nonsense, join me and do real work.' And so I worked for 9 years with Jean-Paul and his successors at Neopost, and it was 9 years that were truly years of development that I really enjoyed. I started as head of marketing and strategy, then I was head of the French subsidiary where Jean-Paul Villot told me, 'We made an acquisition in the United States and we went and bothered the big American number 1, who now comes to bother us on our territory, which is France, and we need a young, dynamic person to hold what is the cash cow of the group.' And then, when the group's CFO became CEO, I was offered to become CFO. And so it was a wonderful adventure within a company where I really liked the management team and the spirit of the house.
And in fact, there's an invisible link between that and the responsibility I took afterwards, when I became president of the Deutsch group, which makes electrical connectors for harsh environments. So if you fly a Formula 1, an Ariane rocket — that doesn't happen every day — a nuclear submarine, an Airbus A320, the electrical connectors are made in large majority by Deutsch. And there, the invisible link is first the desire to become a CEO. I was CFO in the cockpit next to the CEO, then CEO, and so it was time for me to become the boss. And secondly, this company had as financial sponsor Wendel, with as number 2 at Wendel, Bernard Gautier, who was a manager at Bain. So we still had a relationship and a connection that made the conversations quite fruitful. But I think the link — there are two things I'd like to say. The first is that until the age of — I had told myself you'll do what you want until age 30, and it took me 10 more years to understand that I was no longer 30. That's the first thing. And the second is that in reality, the environments are always somewhat the same — very international companies, decentralized companies with very strong local management, and a desire to change the model. And so having a bit of creativity to change the model again — it's also to tell the people listening that there's no absolute pressure to find perfect links and connection points. Sometimes it's easier after 10, 15, 20 years to say there's a link there. Sometimes there isn't necessarily a link. Sometimes there are leaps into the void. Sometimes there are encounters that make you want to change everything to do something else. And as you said very well, at one moment you tell yourself I want to be an entrepreneur, you did it, you also realized it was extremely hard, and what can also be very interesting is being an entrepreneur, being a CEO — they're very similar models.
We'll continue with the friendly Pauses to keep going on your journey. Let's listen to this new friendly Pause from someone who knows you from the inside. Let's listen — it's Nathalie Balla.
Hello Bertrand, I hope you're doing well. I would have liked to know what drives you to always go further and higher, and how you manage to be both chairman of Edenred and chairman of the HEC Alumni Association. Thank you, see you very soon.
So I think one takes more time than the other, I hope, for the shareholders. But still, Nathalie's question — thank you Nathalie for this question — is clearly identified. For people who know you, it's that it never stops.
Well, it doesn't stop, but time is a fairly relative notion. That is to say, Serge Gainsbourg used to say, 'Time is like your bread, save some for tomorrow,' quoting his father. And it's perhaps one of the only phrases with which I disagree with Serge Gainsbourg, whom I love very much. You consume it. Yes, you need to consume this time — it's an ultra-fresh commodity. The second that passes will never come back. And I'm a finite being — that is to say, in my DNA is inscribed the fact that my life on Earth has an end. And so every second that counts is a second that must be given and lived fully. To do this, you need to accept living intensely. So to answer Nathalie's question, how do I do it? I have a very intensive work practice — when I work, I work intensely. And I also have a will, in the free time that's given to me once I've done what I need to do for Edenred, to keep time to give back. I'm very indebted to HEC, which was an important encounter and training point for me. And so when the president of the Alumni Association told me it's your turn and we'd like you to be president, you couldn't escape.
Your relationship with Nathalie — Nathalie is an entrepreneur, brilliant, since she took over, created, built, and sold a group that everyone knows, La Redoute. And I know it all the more because La Redoute was visible from my room on Boulevard Gambetta in Tourcoing.
That's right, it's full circle. La Redoute and 3 Suisses catalogs were part of my childhood.
You grew up with that. Nathalie, who took over, developed, and sold this great group and is now an administrator at Edenred. You were talking about an interesting subject — let me stop for a second, because you have this desire to go fast, because time passes, yet you're someone who believes that life doesn't stop on Earth. But despite that, you say we need to go fast, we need to enjoy. Isn't it contradictory to believe in eternal life and say we need to make the most of it here?
It's a daily dilemma. Yes, no, I agree. One thing is certain: in my earthly life, the seconds are counted, and so I'd like them to be used as well as possible. And we come back to: what are you going to do with the intelligence you've received? It's also often a conversation I have with Françoise, who has a slightly different vision of things and likes to leave time for time, and who sometimes has trouble understanding why I commit myself again. And I think it's also to respond to a deep desire to do things. That is to say, I think it's action that unites people. When we don't know each other, when we don't do anything together, the other is a stranger. And if they're a stranger, they can be a source of fear or frustration. From the moment we do things with the other, we discover wonderful things in the other, we discover invisible threads, and life immediately becomes more fun.
I think the people listening to us feel that. You have a certainly different or very specific leadership. You've won numerous awards — I'll list them, I don't know them all by heart, but you were Best CEO by Invest Magazine, you won the Digital CEO trophy at the Cercle de l'Excellence RH CODIR. There are others like that. You look like a Soviet general at the May 1st parade on Red Square with a truly impressive number of chocolate medals. Do they give you pleasure? Like my chocolate medals when I was 10, they gave me pleasure. Does it give you pleasure because it highlights you, or not really? You don't think you need that — it's certainly not for that that you do it. But first, does it give you pleasure — it's recognition from the sector. And secondly, how do you define your leadership?
Alors est-ce que ça me fait plaisir ? Oui, probablement parce que on a tous un désir de... enfin, je ne sais pas, mais il me semble que au plus profond de chacun d'entre nous, mais avec des intensités différentes, on a quand même un désir de reconnaissance. Donc oui, je ne boudé pas mon plaisir quand on pense à moi. Deo, c'est qu'on ne réussit jamais tout seul. C'est-à-dire que on réussit grâce aux équipes qu'on a autour de soi, on réussit grâce à ses prédécesseurs, et donc c'est aussi une reconnaissance collective. Alors moi j'en suis le porte-parole parce que il faut en choisir un, mais ce qui me fait plaisir aussi c'est la reconnaissance de l'ensemble des collaborateurs et des projets qu'on a mené ensemble.
J'ai cherché sur ChatGPT, tu vois, tu as vu de temps en temps ChatGPT peut-être, et j'ai... c'est quoi la définition d'un bon leader ? Oui, et ChatGPT écrit trois grands axes : un bon leader inspire et motive, deuxièmement il soutient et valorise les autres, et enfin il prend des décisions éthiques et responsables.
Difficile de faire mieux.
Ou c'est parfait là, tu as 19/20, tu as 20/20. Toi tu aurais pu l'écrire de la même manière. Tu grandis, sont essentielle pour toi également ?
Oui, probablement que c'est une très bonne définition. Après, la pratique du leadership peut être très différente d'une personne à l'autre. On peut avoir un leadership d'expertise, et donc ça ChatGPT n'en parle pas, mais il y a des métiers d'experts où le plus expert est le leader. Moi je pense que il y a d'autres dimensions que j'aimerais rajouter. La première c'est que je pense que la responsabilité d'un leader c'est d'abord de donner de l'énergie, c'est-à-dire donner l'envie de faire des choses. C'est cette capacité à dire on n'est pas plus bête que les autres, et donc si on se définit un objectif, on s'organise et avec une bonne notion de temps on va y arriver. Donc moi je pense que d'ailleurs le terme CEO qui est traduit comme Chief Executive Officer peut se transformer en Chief Energy Officer. Et moi je pense que la première responsabilité c'est donner l'envie de faire des choses et donc de transmettre cette énergie.
La deuxième responsabilité c'est que tout n'est pas facile, tout n'est pas immédiat. Les imprévus ne manquent pas de pointer leur nez, et donc comment faire en sorte que on a des gens qui ont confiance en eux. C'est-à-dire que en gros quand on entreprend, et toutes les équipes de management de toutes les entreprises du monde entier sont appelés à entreprendre et à ouvrir de nouvelles voies, les difficultés apparaissent. Et comment face à ces difficultés garder suffisamment confiance en soi pour prendre du recul, analyser ce qui se passe, développer un plan d'action et ramener tout le monde derrière soi. Donc derrière cette définition qui est très bien faite, je rajouterai la capacité à transmettre de l'énergie et la capacité à donner confiance en chacun d'entre nous. Chacun a sa place, chacun a une place.
Tu nous prouves quelque chose. Merci beaucoup Bertrand, tu nous prouves quelque chose que ChatGPT a toujours besoin d'un peu d'humain. Ça ne suffira pas, et donc je te remercie d'avoir ajouté cet humain là. L'homme et la machine seront toujours meilleurs que la machine seule. Donc là c'est aussi un point important que tu cites. Quand je t'entends, j'entends aussi ce que tu as appris, aussi ce que ton papa t'a montré en faisant et non en étant enseignant, et en démontrant aussi dans ce nord de la France que chacun a du potentiel. En fait c'est ça que tu nous dis là, c'est trouver le potentiel de chacun. Et là aussi c'est certainement ce que tu as vu quand tu étais plus jeune.
On va arriver, c'est 2015 là, c'est Edenred, ça y est, tu vas rentrer dans ce poste de chef du cockpit. De... ça y est, c'est toi qui a... c'est toi qui a... ça avait été le cas dans deux entreprises précédentes.
Tu as raison, là la taille est encore plus importante.
Cette entreprise elle est pas au CAC 40. Faut bien comprendre que tu la récupères, enfin tu deviens président. Et je donne les chiffres, je les regarde à l'époque, ça faisait 18 milliards de volume d'affaires, 6000 collaborateurs, 43 millions d'utilisateurs. C'est considérable déjà. Et puis 10 ans après on est à 41 milliards de volumes d'affaires, tu as doublé le nombre de collaborateurs, tu as 60 millions d'utilisateurs. Et en 2023, ce qui est important de nouveau, peut-être que c'est une autre médaille en chocolat, mais Edenred entre dans le CAC 40. Donc là aussi c'est un élément important de réussite de cette partie de ta vie qui est vie professionnelle.
La question c'est comment toi tu as réussi à continuer à transformer, parce que j'ai vu l'évolution, une évolution il y a quand même de la concurrence, et tu as réussi à transformer continuellement. Je crois que tu fais des plans tous les 2 ans, tous les 3 ans, c'est ça ?
Rappelle-moi, j'adore, rappelle-nous les noms de ces plans, parce que à chaque fois je demande comment tu arrives à avoir tant d'innovation dans le marketing, dans...
Tu sais quoi, c'était... c'est quoi ? Non, le premier était Fast Forward.
Fast Forward, d'accord. Le deuxième... ben je me souviens plus.
Le deuxième était... mais non, c'est pas notre fort en fait, hein, la créativité marketing. Le deuxième était Next Frontier.
Next Frontier. Et donc c'est bien tous les 3 ans ?
