Leo, thanks for doing this with us. We really appreciate it. For folks who may not know you as anything other than our amazing CEO, do you want to share about your journey as a real estate agent?
Yeah, I spent 15 years of my life selling real estate in the trenches. I started as a team member, then I went out on my own, then I built a team. Early on in my career, I think we were probably both at the same family reunion in Orlando, and I walked into an event, a breakout session led by a gentleman, Gene Rivers,
and he said that you have to list to last, which I had heard for the first couple years I'd been in the business. But he said something that changed the course of my business, which was, "I go on appointments where I can get five to 10 to 15 listings at a time." And it was a Eureka moment for me because I said, "Wait, that's on the menu?" Like I didn't know that that was an option in real estate. I would say that the latter part of my real estate career was 80 to 90% listing-sided, and I became obsessed with being the world's greatest listing agent.
Yeah, and those multiple listings—we're talking about investors here, obviously.
Well, he didn't qualify. He just said, and what I coined a term that I spoke about a lot as an agent is I found multi-transactional sellers, and that changed in the market cycle we were in. So, sometimes they were builders, investors, other times it was banks and financial institutions, and the last part of my career was hedge funds.
Okay. I find really good listing agents, if they knew how to play billiards, would be really great pool players because they know how to set up their shots. They don't walk into a listing appointment and have a pricing conversation without first having the foundation that they need. In that initial conversation with sellers, when you're going to set up the appointment, I'm assuming you did some sort of pre-qualification questioning. Are there things that you found it was really helpful to say or ask during that conversation that would set you up well for pricing later?
Yeah, I think that's where all the magic happens. It's the pre-qualification. The amount of people—and again, I lived in the DC metropolitan area, so it was very common for me to drive across a county line or a state line for a listing presentation. If you're familiar with the DC metropolitan area, that traffic can be unforgiving. It was purely self-preservation. If I was going to drive across town for 45 minutes, I wanted to know that I had all the proper decision makers, right? I think the biggest mistake you guys as agents do, whether on the buy side or the listing side, is you only pitch half of the decision maker. Physically, they need to be present in the room. A very non-negotiable thing is see who's on title. And if it says Brian and Sarah, I need Brian and Sarah at the listing appointment, not just Sarah, not just Brian, because each person who signs off on it—and one of the additional scripts I said: "Is there anybody in your life who is not on title who's going to be foundational or paramount in this decision-making process?" It could be a parent. It could be a child depending on the age of the people in title. It could be a very close family friend or adviser, because if that person is going to impede them signing the agreement, I might as well have them at the appointment so they could hear the presentation in its totality.
So I would say that that is one of those probing questions that people need to understand, and also understand why we're moving, right? If there was an inbound lead on seller gen marketing, which we don't know we're going to talk about that, but I spent most of my time optimizing for that, something as basic as LP MAMA, right? Like listing price, motivation, are you working with an agent, timeline to close to the appointment. Something as simple and basic as LP MAMA will get someone off the fence who's just a looker, right? Like, "I'm calling about 123 Main Street, Brian. How many bedrooms does it have?" "123 Main Street is listed for $350,000 and has three bedrooms." In one question, that's an answer, and then I'd qualify it with a question: "Is that price range the one you're qualified for?" Right? And then that way I've already handled, "Are you pre-qualified for..." Like, "Well, no, I'm a neighbor. I was just curious about the price." "Excellent, and I appreciate you. Do you know anyone who's interested in being your neighbor?" Right? And if they have a loved one, because a lot of times you're calling on behalf of a cousin or a friend or co-worker that you would prefer to be on the same street. And again, that is a disarming question because I'm not asking if you're buying. All of a sudden that could be like, "No, I'm kind of curious. I wanted to see how big that house was to see what my house is worth," right? "Are you considering making a move in the next six months, 12 months?" or whatever your qualifying question is. If you ever listen to like a Tom Hopkins—which by the way, we under the SUCCESS brand own the entire catalog of everything Tom Hopkins would do—we would role play on our team where I'd crumple up a ball of paper, and we would throw role playing questions at us. Whoever asked the last question got to hold the ball, and that's who controlled the conversation. Most people don't realize that if you get into a cadence, you just start answering questions, and that is not controlling the conversation whatsoever.
Yeah. I'm curious, was one of those questions, "What do you think your home was worth?"
Depending on if it's inbound and the type of marketing I did, I normally didn't lead with that because normally we spent our dollars on cash sellers, so like motivated sellers. We normally got the referral after an investor had already qualified that it was not an all-cash transaction, so most of the time I had a lot of those questions answered.
And so I was more curious, and I would be more curious especially in today's environment: "Do you have to sell?" Right? The "do you have to sell" answer is probably the most important question I would want to know in a tough buyer market. When it's a buyer market, it's not favorable to the seller. I want to know that there is a "have to sell," meaning, "I've accepted a job across town or across the country and I have to sell my property. We've already moved and we just have to sell this vacant home." Now there is a forcing function that will make you a very engaged seller is what I was constantly looking for.
Yeah. And I think with sellers, it's never about price because list price is just naming your journey. Which kind of journey do you want to be on? Right.
And that's actually why I didn't touch on it, because to me, I showed up to an appointment with almost three different scenarios every single time. One would be an all-cash, as-is, closed Friday, which most of the time by the time I talked to them, we'd already exhausted that opportunity. Then secondly, there is an almost as-is on the MLS strategy, call that the elbow grease version, where it's like you're going to do everything that you can do. We'll give some advice on curb appeal and staging and decluttering and maybe kind of that elbow grease of still go change out all the hardware and make sure it matches. Like I'm not even complaining about which one you pick, but just pick one: all brushed nickel or all brass or all stainless steel, but we can't have six different tones of hardware throughout the house. Then the last option, depending on the scope, could vary quite a bit from, call it painting, carpet, and maybe a countertop refresh, or all the way to a full renovation, right? I sold real estate in a very old housing stock, meaning a lot of the homes were built as old as 1890 all the way till mid-'60s. So it could be you're taking a 3/1 and turning into a 4/2. Again, most people didn't take on that challenge,
but it could be anywhere from a scope of $10,000 in repairs all the way to $100,000 in repairs. And if what would sell as-is for $450K, you put $150K in it, it could sell for $750K, right? But most homeowners are probably not open for many reasons: the complexity of the liability, where do you live for six months? But once I moved from, "I'm a salesperson trying to sell your product," to, "I'm a consultant explaining to you all the different versions of value that are available to you, and you're going to pick the one that makes the most sense for your life based on timeline, available cash on hand, and headache factor that you're willing to undertake."
Yeah. I think the three factors in your seller home: price, condition—you don't control one. The other two you have a choice. You can price high, but then you better bring that condition up to meet it, or you can keep the condition as it is and bring the price where it needs to be to match that as well.
And then Brian, it's really understanding what market cycle we're in, right? Like if you were selling a home in literally 2006, it didn't actually matter what it looked like. We took the last comps, added 5%, and said, "See what happens. Let's go," right? And by the way, same in 2021, right? But in 2010 or in 2024, it is not that situation. And again, 2010 was like the whole world was on fire, which is different than today, which is, you know, our agents in Westchester outside of New York have two weeks of inventory and are getting 16 offers. I just spoke at one of their events recently. But if you are in a condo building in South Florida, you could be competing with a ton of inventory. And so this is where a listing agent really needs to understand absorption rate. Like if you're in Southwest Florida in Cape Coral, Naples, you're competing with eight months of inventory. And so you need to be able to calculate absorption rates. If there's 23 active listings and only two are being sold every month and your consumer wants to be at the top of the market, you need to articulate statistically speaking, you have to go eight months for the market to absorb this. And the longer you sit, the longer folks are going to wonder what's going on with your property. Put yourself in the buyer's situation, right? If there's 23 properties for sale, you not only have to be the best priced, you have to be the best move-in ready condition. Buyers—right now there's a phenomenon in San Francisco probably due to AI and how quickly properties are getting bid up, but it's becoming a more common feature where they want it fully furnished, like literally move-in ready. So there's varying degrees of that. San Francisco real estate was you couldn't give it away post-COVID. So three or four years in a market cycle, and an outside input like the proliferation of AI companies and public exits right now, that can all of a sudden get your market back on fire.
Yeah. And you're talking about kind of the next stage of the journey, which is after that initial conversation where you've dug in LP MAMA, you've gotten the information you need to go and construct that listing presentation for that seller. I'm curious, when you look at comps—this is such a pedestrian question, but somebody who's mastered real estate at your level, there's a lot of nuances to learn from it. When you're looking at comps and you're constructing that sort of market story that you're going to share with the seller, how do you think about comps? Are you—I know agents of the five comp data: showings, pendings, solds, actives, and expireds. I don't know if the DMV area offered showing details, but what of those do you pull in and what kind of story are you looking to create from that?
Yeah. And the DMV is a unique market because of the housing stock and also because of the cost to build, right? One of the things that I found fascinating is moving as an adult and then buying real estate in a different market, and also leading a national/international company, and "customary" is such an underappreciated word in real estate. I'll give you a couple real examples: in Virginia, the buyer picks the title company, and not only customarily—because that's what happens in most states—the Virginia Supreme Court has an addenda because of a ruling that supersedes anything in the contract. So let's say you're the seller, I'm the buyer. You negotiate into the contract that we're going to use your title company. There's an actual ruling and a specific disclosure you sign that says that's cool, as the buyer, I can ultimately change my mind and use whatever title company because that is a Virginia Supreme Court ruling, which is unique and not normal, but I grew up thinking it's normal.
And then as I find out, in Southern California, the seller picks the title company. Blows my mind. Makes no sense to me because really the cost is being borne by the buyer, right? And it's their title insurance policy. Let's scoot on up to Utah. Turns out that both parties pick their own. Makes no damn sense to me.
And by the way, it only makes no damn sense to me because I didn't grow up with it. To the people of Utah, it's probably insane to let the other party pick and you're not being fiducially represented. So like, I can almost make any argument make sense because I understand the process. I've learned that comps are almost the same way. In Miami where I live, it's almost a per square foot replacement cost thesis, right? Something as-is trades at like $400 or $500 a foot. Brand new, it's $1,000 a foot. Built in the last 20 years is probably somewhere in the middle. You literally take livable square footage, and it's really a per square foot calculation versus a per square foot of lot coverage in a teardown opportunity. I was shocked how much of Miami real estate is per square foot cost: is it replacement cost or is it new construction build, and that's what you're going towards? In—not Austin as much, but Dallas, which is like urban sprawl, or Houston, which is mass-built homes,
You're doing the most traditional—
comp adjustment on bedrooms and bath and square footage, right? Year built, bedroom/bath count, garage/no garage—you have an adjustment for a garage, you have an adjustment for a pool, a $15K subtraction or addition. It's almost scientific, right? That's where the AVMs are very, very sharp. DMV was complicated because I could have a rowhouse that the physical footprint was what it was, and it hadn't been really updated since it was built. You had a 3/1 across three floors sell for $450K, but you could put $250K into it and completely renovate. I would take properties that were 70, 80 years old and actually take an English basement that was 5 and 1/2 feet and dig down 3 feet and make it a 9-foot basement, put in a French drain, put an egress window, and created an additional living space floor with windows and egress. That same shell that sold for $450K next door could go for $950K, right? So understanding the physical obsolescence versus the physical utility, total square footage, livable square footage, below grade, above grade—it turns into what I believe compares a strong agent versus a mediocre agent. Being able to unlock value like that, being able to explain the nuances, maybe that's why a property sits on the market for six months and the neighbor's sold in a week.
Yeah, it's our partnerships with Curri and Notable are really designed for this kind of a thing what you're talking about. I think more and more we need to be making sure our agents understand those optionalities. Once you've constructed that CMA, that market data, question for you: did you use a pre-listing packet?
Okay. All right. So we're going in just based on the conversation and the relationship. We show up at the appointment day of. Are we going on the walkthrough first?
100%. For me, that was—I would start outside and then the walkthrough on the inside. I know there's two different camps, and by the way, I don't think either one's right or wrong. It's whatever works for you. The walkthrough, first of all, is to check the boxes data-wise for me on the stuff that I couldn't tell from the outside: age and condition of the mechanical, roof. Let's just say I'm doing a production-built townhouse single-family home that was built in the late '90s, probably relatively new. But if we walk in and the comps are all millennial gray and granite, and then ours is builder-grade linoleum with Brazilian cherry hardwood, which screams early 2000s, it's like, "Look, if you want the same comps, you've got to put $25K in the kitchen, or you adjust the price accordingly." There's stuff that the property hasn't been listed and I can't look at interior pictures. You may have, "Well, my neighbors all got $550K across the street." I say, "Yeah, but your neighbors redid the kitchens, and let's look at the adjustments for that." And again, I'm not saying you should, because maybe we're in a seller's market and there's a lot of demand, so you might put in a dollar and get 70 cents back. So maybe we just price it slightly more aggressively, but leave room in the price for that buyer to capture some of the economics. And by the way, they're probably going to want to do it anyway, right? Like if I was ever telling someone to paint a wall, don't go with a strong color. Just go vanilla white, maybe a beige or a light tone where they don't have to prime the wall if they're going to paint it anyway, right? That's understanding the nuances of each thing. But to me, the tour was actually where I built the most rapport,
right? I'm sitting in my home office, and if we were doing the tour here and we just happened to see that—and that is like one of my trophies and my speargun—that would give me a lot of intel into something that's important to that consumer. That's a very perfect example of like most humans don't want to jump in the ocean with a speargun and shoot stuff because it attracts predators, but it would spark a lot of questions, right? The amount of times I walked through a house and say, "Oh, you went to University of Maryland. I went to George Mason." It would be like, "What year did you graduate? I remember we played each other in the Cinderella game and we got to the Final Four." Does it actually matter if I know anything about the sport or the school you went to? Or walking around, "Oh, you have two kids. Is the move important that they get to school on time September 1st?" Right? I can actually bring that back to ground the conversation in comps to reality: "I appreciate that you want to try the market, but we're listing in July. And by the way, if we miss that window, in Maryland pretty much everyone's on vacation in August, and the selling window doesn't really pick up till mid-September. That really puts your son or daughter showing up in October, you miss Q1. It's awkward already. But if we price correctly, we might catch this part of the selling season and be able to get you into your new home, start school the same day." Because so many people don't understand the math problem. A lot of times I remember arguing with a seller: "I want to start at $710K versus $700K." Where I'm like, "Look, that potential $10,000 is going to get eaten up in carry costs in two months of payments. Are you thinking it through that way, where you still have to pay for this house and the monthly carry? If it takes six months to sell, have you done the math on that?" And again, depending on the situation: has your family already moved? Are you carrying two properties? There's so many nuances that go into the math equation.
Yeah. And even if they're not carrying another property, all that interest money is just money they're throwing away each month as carrying costs. As you did the walkthrough—we talked to listing agents. I know several who do two-step listing appointments. I think I'm too high-D for that. It sounds like you did a one-step listing appointment as well. There's that rapport, and also building in the "I hear you, I see your home" kind of elements. As you're going through that tour, are you pointing out the challenges to the seller or are you waiting on that?
