And many thanks to CED for giving me the opportunity to introduce to you today Estelle Brachlianoff, CEO of Veolia Environnement. Good morning, Estelle, thank you very much for being here.
Good morning, Elena. Thank you for moderating this dialogue.
Like many of you, I had heard and read about Estelle, one of the leading women of our time. Later, shortly before joining the board of Veolia, I had the opportunity to learn more about her through my esteemed Antoine Frérot, non-executive chairman of the group. I perfectly remember the pride with which Antoine described Estelle to me: extraordinarily intelligent, a tireless worker, full of empathy, and with all the company's activities and people in her head and in her heart.
Estelle is an engineer from the École Polytechnique and the École des Ponts—for us, the School of Civil Engineering, dear director—she is an engineer by early vocation, which surely had something to do with the example of her mother, an aeronautical engineer and one of the first female executives at Airbus. She thought at some point about dedicating herself to astrophysics, but when it came time to choose, she opted for engineering, probably because she found a more immediate application for addressing people's needs.
She began working in the local public sector in the field of infrastructure and soon joined Veolia, a company where she has been for 21 years and where she has held important positions until finally being appointed in 2022 as CEO of this major global group, a leader in ecological transformation. Estelle will undoubtedly talk to us about Veolia, its activity, its presence in 50 countries across five continents, its 225,000 employees—who, by the way, are the primary shareholders—about the role of innovation, and the challenges that climate change poses for us.
And it won't be me stealing part of a time that, in all likelihood, will seem short to us. But allow me to simply outline some of the reasons that, in my opinion, shape her leadership. Firstly, her long-term strategic vision, ambitious in her objectives and always setting a clear course. Secondly, her flexibility, within the framework of that vision, to be capable not only of detecting opportunities but of acting quickly to seize them. Estelle is a leader of action.
Thirdly, an extraordinary intuition that overlaps with an analytical dissection of problems and challenges, like a good engineer. An intuition that seems to me to be based on data, but which has been forged in experience and arises, above all, from the passion she puts into everything she undertakes. And it is that passion that shapes a humanist leadership, with people at the center of all her actions.
Estelle is of that breed of purposeful leaders, beyond the bottom line, those optimistic leaders who want to leave their mark on building a better world. Estelle has managed to find the always difficult balance between decentralization, the delegation of responsibilities, and "pilotage," if that is how one can translate the French word "pilote." Delegating, but always setting the course and a clear direction.
She is a person—you notice it right away in meetings—who knows how to surround herself with talent, men and women whom she listens to attentively, only to then decide without a trembling pulse, paying close attention to that well-honed intuition. She is a tireless worker, as Antoine described her to me; she leads by example and is absolutely aware that the most valuable asset of her company is the people who work there, and she takes care of them.
Anyway, I could keep telling you the many reasons for my admiration, but I think it is better that you verify them for yourselves by listening to her and, of course, by listening to the questions Elena is going to ask her. Dear Estelle, it is a pleasure for me to share work hours with you and your team. Thank you again for being here among us. Thank you all very much.
Thank you very much. Good morning everybody. My name is Elena Garz and I have the pleasure of interviewing a woman that I have admired for a long time, but after Elena's words even more, because there were some personal things there I didn't know about. So let's start. Elena was mentioning astrophysics. Okay. So you had a very promising academic career in physics. What led you to make the shift and come to the world of management and the corporate world, and building upon that, what has Veolia brought you professionally over the last 20 years?
Wow. I will start, before answering your question, to thank Elena for the kind words. Although I probably only understood part of it because I don't speak Spanish, but you know, being a Latin language, there is still something that, you know, reaches my brain. And thanks to CED for the invitation; you know, we are very embedded in Spain, and it is important that we have this type of dialogue. And I am very lucky to have Elena on board and, you know, within our board for the last few years. You know, it really is a pleasure and, you know, a gift for the company.
So yes, from astrophysics to running a company, which is great and I love, but not exactly about the stars, although you could debate that. You know, what came... I mean, probably the first driver for me was curiosity and discovering new things and always being tempted to surprise myself. And you know, going for it and trying was always my motto within my career. I love astrophysics. I love quantum physics. Stanford University a few years ago. But I was like, okay, do I really want to be in a field where only four people in the world, you know, with whom I can really debate about what we're talking about? I would rather discover new people, discover new countries, discover new activities, in a way. So curiosity was the main driver for me to leave something more, I guess, like RER, for example.
Are you still curious? Uh, yes, I think I am, but you should ask my team, you know, like I'm always, okay, you know, tell me, should we consider other options? What if we think outside the box? Um, besides, quantum physics is a wonderful lesson, even for inside an organization, but I could, I could share that later if you wish. Many philosophical elements. So I left, and then I started my career as a civil engineer in infrastructure, you know, working for the French government, de facto, which was quite, quite interesting and very concrete in the double sense, double meaning of it, and, uh, and then, yes, because I simply wanted to do something different. I met a lot of people, I had no idea what I wanted to do.
Uh, in fact, I had an interview with the guy who would become my boss. Uh, and when I walked into his office, I was thinking: "Estelle, you have an interview, so be polite, but damn it, waste management, seriously?" You know, this was a bit crazy. "And when I left his office, um, an hour and a half later, I was thinking: 'Okay, this guy is offering me a job, I'm going for it.'" In the excitement, adventure things, moving. That's what attracted me to the organization. Besides the meaning of it, the purpose of what you do when you enter... So I guess that was to leave yourself surprised, even meeting people, would be the only advice I have.
In a way, is that still the case? 21 years ago, is that still the case 21 years later? Um, do you still feel that excitement? What do you think after interviewing me for minutes? I don't know. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I... yes. That's the answer. Of course, it has gone through different, you know, elements. Uh, but the company still surprises me. Its people still surprise me, uh, in many different ways. You know, for example, this summer we had, like, people, you know, daily, at night, you know, in a way, fighting against, you know, the possible, uh, water restriction so that everyone could have, you know, water in their tap, uh, regardless of the drought, regardless of the big fire. And yet, still, I'm like, "Wow, you know, this company is just incredible," and I still discover many things.
Let's move on to something you just said. Um, we live in a world of global crisis. Okay. So, there is a bit of a backlash on environmental commitments. Okay. But Veolia is there. So, how do you at Veolia address environmental security? Okay. And your recent results, by the way, congratulations, uh, show that you are very resilient in your model.
No, interesting question, so uh, thanks for the comment on the results. Veolia remains a very large organization, 45 billion euros in revenue. We employ 220,000 people in around 45 countries. Uh, you know, in waste, water, and energy, we are innovators. We are increasingly, you know, international, so 80% is outside France and even 40% outside Europe now. By the way, uh, the second country for Veolia is the US, uh, since this summer. Uh, more than 6 billion in revenue in the US. Why do I mention the US? Answer to when we invested massively. We wrote two big checks in the US. We bought a company called Clean Harbors for a billion a few months ago and just before that we acquired a water one, and people said, "Okay, aren't you, you know, investing massively in the US when what the company does is environmental services at the time when Donald Trump is in the White House?" And uh, I think you know, the answer is absolutely not. It is absolutely not contradictory as it may seem, uh, the demand is here. It is still here. It is growing for security, to secure water, to secure access to critical minerals, to secure access to affordable energy, to access essential services, to guarantee access, uh, to health, being assured when you turn on the tap, for example.
Um, this demand comes from the population. It drives... it is driven by the population; it is driven by industries in the same way, in a way even more so than by central governments. So, you know, locally elected officials are as important, if not more so, than nationally elected officials. And what happened at the White House concerns us for better or worse, but in a way, what happens in Texas, Arizona, or New Jersey is more important for a company like ours—I think that's quite interesting. So, you know, where we stand: we are a multilocal company, as well as a massive multinational, but in many, many ways, we are more "multilocal" than multinational. And energy... security, I think, are two important words put together in your question.
There used to be an appearance of a contradiction, like, at a time when you have geopolitical crises—you know, Ukraine, the Middle East—at a time when you have an affordability crisis, a housing crisis; at a time when you have, you know, many, many different issues to solve, okay, "saving the planet" might be lower on the agenda because we don't have the time or we can't afford it. I think it is exactly what, in a way, demonstrates all those crises happening, you know, all at once at the same time. They are not contradictory; some of the solutions we have provide an answer to several of these crises at the same time.
If I give you an example: when we produce local energy from waste heat, wastewater, or non-recyclable waste, it's local energy, energy from a city. It avoids importing, so it... it avoids us, you know, being dependent on geopolitical crises. So when you produce local energy, it's not only good for the CO2 footprint, let's say, but it secures access to energy in an affordable way... regardless of what happens elsewhere in the world. So you can imagine that it solves not only the affordability crisis, the CO2 question, but also, you know, the geopolitical one. So, uh, as you say in English, although it's a bit aggressive, you kill two birds with one stone, or three birds with one stone in that example. I think that's super important; when you do recycling, it's the same thing. When you recycle an electric car battery, you recover lithium, cobalt, and nickel.
So instead of importing them from, you know, the Congo, Chile, China, and Russia, you can find them there, in a way that you extract locally your own waste. Therefore, you depend less on imports and, again, you can secure prices for a long time, instead of depending on geopolitical crises. So, um, water is a permanent example, you know? If you don't secure, uh, water sources and new sources, like wastewater reuse, which we have developed quite a lot in Spain and we still have more to do, uh, then you would have a problem with farmers who have to restrict their irrigation; therefore, their production is lower, costs are higher and, consequently, it combines with an affordability crisis. So you can imagine that everything is relatively combined, instead of being an opposition of several priorities. In reality, the security environment is, I think, at the heart of many different solutions.
Excellent. Um, I saw in your answer that you have a very local mindset. So, let's go local now and look at Spain. Okay, I understand that Spain is one of your reference markets and big markets. So, let's talk a little about GreenUp. Um, I don't know if you know what GreenUp is, but it's a strategic plan that combines profitable growth and decarbonization. Okay, so Spain is one of the engines for GreenUp, right? So, tell us, what would you highlight as the main achievement in this market? So be kind to us.
I have to try. Naturally I will. Don't worry, don't worry. No, um, actually, when I say we are multilocal, we have been in Spain for 160 years and, you know what? We will probably be in Spain for another 160 years, if not more. And, um, well, 45 billion in revenue for Veolia overall, about 3 billion in Spain, uh, and we employ 18,000 people in this country in several different communities. It's not specifically in big cities, it's really across the country and in all regions. Um, so there is a kind of internal competition about who is the number three country. Number one is France. Um, number two is the US. Who would be number three? Spain, which are more or less at the same level of activity. I'm sure that everything we've discussed, Daniel, is ahead of Spain.
Dan, you know, you'll soon be the clear number three, and I'll say that, even in front of your two colleagues by the way, because there's big potential for growth in this country. We're up 40%. We're investing a billion in Spain between '25 and 2030; again, that's because there is high hope for it. Um, all together, uh, Spain, for me, is not just a large portion of our business, but a laboratory for innovative solutions. Innovation is a keyword for Veolia. Innovation in technology, innovation in know-how. So don't think of us as just a service infrastructure company. We are not a construction company at all. We are truly an innovation-driven international company. And when I say innovation, I mean innovation we import elsewhere and bring to Spain, and innovation in things we develop in Spain that we export elsewhere in the world.
If I start with the latter, I mentioned our use of wastewater. Basically, you know, Spain was a country that was thirsty, and yes, thirsty earlier than other more northern countries in Europe. So that's where we developed specific solutions. Regarding reuse or even desalination. There are many desalination units in Spain, unlike, say, in France or in other countries. So we've developed a few different elements that we are now exporting as well. My French colleagues love it when I tell them that Spain is ahead in a few things. Wastewater is one; 15% of wastewater is recycled in Spain, compared to less than 1% in France. I can tell you that this statistic has made a lot of noise, like, "we can't be behind." Yes, we are, you know? And how about we copy what's done here to move forward?
It means that, in our activity, we recycle wastewater to provide irrigation for agriculture, which is critical, as well as providing water for industries and for putting back into rivers to reproduce drinking water. So, this requires a lot of technical solutions and a lot of know-how to make it happen. I'm super happy about that. So, desalination is another example in Spain, and I think we'll go through a second generation of desalination because a lot of it was done in the 90s in this country. In the meantime, we've invested heavily in innovation and we are a world leader in distribution technologies; our tech has allowed us to cut energy consumption to one-fifth of what it was in the 90s. So, the new ones we build are five times more energy-efficient than those we built in the 90s. You can imagine that I think there will be a new generation of those same plants rebuilt on the same sites in this country. There's probably a lot of things we're developing here.
I could talk about how we use AI to detect leaks in the distribution network and so on and so forth, and vice versa. For instance, in the US and Australia, we develop a lot of technology to treat new pollutants like PFAS. I don't know how familiar you are with them; they're called "forever chemicals." You find them everywhere. They can have a harmful effect on your health, and we are finding solutions to remove them from water, soil, and various other media. So, innovation will be the answer, and we'll be in Spain for a long 160 years, but probably even longer than that, likely much longer. Actually, it's a country I visit a lot, you know, just like you do, for personal reasons. Professional, maybe, you know, but personal as well. I think, you know, I go three or four times a year to Spain. In Barcelona, in Madrid, I always enjoy seeing the progress made from one visit to the next. It's good to know that we're actually doing something better than in France.
Yes. Okay. So, firstly, and secondly, given that you are one of the few people in the world who can speak about quantum mechanics and quantum physics, you are definitely innovative. Okay. So, before we turn to innovation and AI, let me just spend one more minute on GreenUp. Okay, because it's fascinating, and it's really guiding your transformation, if I'm correct. Okay. And you have a theme at Veolia which is "acceleration," right? So, let me know what progress has been achieved so far, what the challenges are, and how you are mobilizing both internal and external stakeholders to ensure everyone contributes to that acceleration.
I guess progress so far has been very good, but you know, it's never finished. The company is transforming itself very rapidly to be more international, tech-focused, and innovation-led. So we invest a lot, you know, in M&A and in capex to develop what is more technology and innovation-driven, and what is more focused outside of France. So 90% of our investment was outside and in innovation and technology-driven activities. In four years, we will have changed 25% of the group's activity portfolio; it's an 8.5 billion transformation—things we sell, things we buy, things we develop and invest in—so investment will go into bioenergy. Energy produced from what other people don't want: again, non-recyclable waste, waste heat, wastewater as well, and hazardous waste treatment, which basically handles all the pollutants and new pollutants that industries produce, which can impact your health. The byproduct of industry goes with this, and the third one is what technologies all type of treatment users in Europe and first patent depositor in Europe for those industrial.
For example, let me give you, I don't know, like I've already mentioned one easy one, we can already mention one in desalination. We improved the efficiency of the membrane, the efficiency of the energy recovery, so we divided the energy consumption of a desalination plant by three. So I can tell you how technologically speaking we've done it, but it was for a purpose. Another example in water is with lithium; you know that to provide batteries for this little object, and for your electric car, and for your electric bicycle, you need lithium, cobalt, and nickel. Those are rare minerals which are, you know, mined in not that many countries, and there is a big boom in demand and price.
We had a customer in Australia, which was a lithium mine, who wanted to double the size of their mine. Except Australia, you know, as you might figure out, is quite a water-scarce country, a very dry country. And to do mining you need a lot of water, like a lot, a lot. And that's why they came to see us and said, "Okay, we want to double the size of our mine, but we don't have the authorization to take one single extra drop of water compared to now." Okay, seems super difficult. We put in a lot of technology, so it's active flow and crystallization if you want to know the name of it. Thank you. We'd be happy to tell you about it, but basically, it makes you recycle the water you use almost infinitely. So you use it, and it ends up with a lot of pollutants in it. You remove the pollutants and it's used again by the mine. So it's kind of recycling process water for mining.
Very interesting. Thank you so much. So that in itself is an innovation. So let's turn to one of your pet topics: innovation and AI. You have announced a major push toward leveraging AI and resource efficiency. How do you balance digital development with the pressures on water? And energy resources; what improvements have you made in Spain to ensure business and service development are aligned?
Well, I suppose for us, AI is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the AI industry—that is, data centers as well as microelectronics—needs many of our services, so it is a potential business opportunity for us. On the other hand, we can also use these AI tools to improve the efficiency of the company itself. And, you know, I can walk you through both sides of it. Regarding data centers and microelectronics, everyone thinks that data centers need a lot of power—and they do. Veolia doesn't produce power specifically; that isn't really our main focus. It's not in our strategy or part of what we do, but people tend to forget something. They realize in countries like Spain, or in some parts of the US now, that data centers also need a lot of water to be cooled down.
I remember about a year and a half ago, in the middle of the US, there was a truly shocking article where the mayor of a small city told farmers, "I'm sorry, guys, I have to ask you to stop irrigation because we need to cool down this data center." So you can imagine the fight for the same scarce resource. This absolutely must not turn into that kind of opposition. It became a very big topic in the midterm elections in the US, by the way, if you take a look at it. So, social acceptance was the main question, and I joked with my team, "Imagine Mr. Amazon Web Services and Mr. Google talking to a mayor in your country." It's quite a culture shock, let's be honest, with these big American companies saying, "Okay, this is our world, the highway, this is it now, and bigger is better." Okay, but what about our communities? And that is where we bring solutions, both technical ones and ways to bridge that gap.
Technically, we can basically reduce the water footprint of data centers by 75% by, for instance, recycling water. As such. Wasted heat, free heat for the local community, if they have district heating. We can recycle electronic waste, because they produce a lot of electronic waste as well, so we have a way to make the data centers more sustainable. And we've signed a few contracts in Mississippi with Amazon Web Services, in Ohio, and we're discussing a lot of things in Europe as we speak. On the other side, we use AI for our own needs. The first thing we always do is check that, you know, it's worth it. You don't want to use more resources than the resources you would save by using it, so at times, you don't need it; a simple digital solution works better and consumes fewer resources, so you have to be very clear-headed.
Uh, but we use AI in Spain, quite extensively. We have 17 hub centers, which are kind of control centers that take data from all types of sensors in wastewater, in power distribution units, it could be in big hospitals for energy-saving activities, and so on and so forth, so we do a lot of that. We use it in the distribution of water thanks to AI. We even have robots, you know, it's not AI, but we even have robots in some complex and hazardous places where you don't want to send a real person. You'd rather send a robot because it's a difficult environment. So we do use a lot of it. We even have a call center where we've extended our hours because you can call the call center, and you know, we have chatbots using AI so that we can extend our reach and be more available for customers, and so on and so forth. So we use it already quite a lot, but each time we check that it works in terms of cost-benefit, including the impact on resources.
As a STEM person, there's an ongoing debate now in the US: whether you need a lot of water or you don't need a lot of water to manage AI. Do we or don't we? So far, we need a lot of water, but we can again recycle it as opposed to using it and then discarding it. You can use recycled wastewater as opposed to taking it from underground sources. So we have solutions. Maybe one day we'll find a way to have data centers without water. That's not the case right now, though. Uh, and it will take a long time before it's, you know, out there and implementable.
Absolutely. I loved your example of the community where the mayor goes and says, you know, I'm not sure that would be possible in Spain, but anyway, um, that's leadership—what you are doing versus what others are doing. So, leading in uncertain times, because we do live in uncertain times. Um, it seems that many are operating in a permanent crisis mode. It doesn't seem to be the case at Veolia, from what you have been saying. But what capabilities would you say are essential for a leader to lead resilient organizations?
We live in turbulent times, even with, uh, a crisis every single, I guess, month and week. And of course, you know, like everybody else, if you look at the stress tests the company has gone through while at the same time delivering results, quarter after quarter after quarter. Uh, and I'm not comparing all the events I'm going to mention, but when you think about it, within a short period of time, there was COVID and the big, and all the lockdowns. There was a war in Ukraine, where energy prices went up and then down. Then there was a spike in inflation and then it went down. Then, you know, of course, you know, like you can talk about Gaza, uh, the Middle East, uh, and that could go on and on and on. So yes, those crises are in a way, the tariffs, the big one—tariffs that impacted our customers—and, uh, the war for water where India and Pakistan share the Indus. Forget that. So there is one specific physical war over water between those two countries. Yes. So we're going through very difficult times.
So you have two ways of, um, of looking at it. The, um, "I'm going to do what I planned anyway." Okay. It's not easy to do or to admit the fact that it's the new norm, in a way, to be in uncertain times. So, for me, leading in uncertain times means two things. Uh, one is having very strong foundations and being anchored, having a very strong direction and vision, and being super flexible in the way you get there. So it seems contradictory, but it's not. Uh, you have to have a very strong sense of purpose and direction for Veolia's ecological transformation. Uh, it's our green plan. Uh, we want to be more international, more tech-oriented, to be able to have even more solutions to tackle—again, to be able to offer water security, health, uh, energy security, mineral security, and environmental security. That's what we do. And then, you have the way to deliver, uh, to always be able to adapt to new norms. Uh, if you think life is an Excel file that goes like that, um, okay, you will be disappointed.
Uh, just to give you an example, I remember, um, a few years ago we were selling a lot of pieces of kit, uh, water technology for microelectronics in Southeast Asia. So, the big plants in Taiwan and South Korea and Singapore, uh, it was great, and then suddenly everything stopped because Joe Biden had declared that it was—if you remember—with the IRA, the CHIPS Act, and certainly a lot of investment moved to the US. You know what? Our teams ended up selling exactly the same type of equipment in the US. It changed from one month to the next, almost. Uh, it was not at all what we had planned. We thought it would be mainly Asia. It ended up being a lot in the US. Fair enough. As you know, we were selling a lot of desalination units, like, you know, very, very regularly, because we're very good at that, very efficient, and so on. So, first, then the war started at the end of February, and you know what? A lot of those projects were shelved, uh, or canceled or delayed, so we had to move to something else and try to adapt.
But strong foundations are key, and I think how you do business is important. Treat people with respect, the talk, and behave exactly as yourself on a personal basis, something different, all those types of things. And two, uh, non-negotiables for Veolia: health and safety, and compliance. You don't want to lose that just because the world is—those are strong foundations.
I'm a lawyer, so I'm very happy to hear you talk about compliance. Um, and if I may, it should not be only lawyers who care about that, definitely. Um, can I ask you a couple of personal questions, please? Thank you. So, Estelle's grandmother traveled through Afghanistan in the 50s by herself. She was an adventurer. Okay. So, when you're facing a very difficult board meeting, one of those crises, do you think about your grandmother and say, "I can handle this"? I turn to Elena and say, "Okay, what would your advice be?" Elena?
No, but um, no, you know, like you're always, you know, a mixture of yourself personally and, you know, what made you who you are. My grandmother was a big inspiration for me, always where people were not expecting her to be. You know, she had kids without being married in the 40s, which wasn't exactly... she ended up being married in the end, but much later on. She traveled to Afghanistan with her cousin, uh, back in the 50s; as you can imagine, that wasn't exactly very common. But, more so my grandfather, you know, because Brush... and I don't know if it's exactly a name that sounds very French, uh, it's Bulgarian. My grandfather was Bulgarian and he moved to France in the 30s just to build a new life.
So yes, you are a bit of those adventurous spirits, maybe, right?
Yeah. And, and I'm a bit of a never-give-up lady, you know. I turn to the team, you know, and say, why not? Okay, we'll find a way. We are in this together. Uh, but we'll find a way.
Very good. Now, as Elena mentioned, uh, her mother, uh, was one of the first important women at Airbus, and she actually started a small revolution because she wore pants to work. What is your equivalent of her trousers?
It sounds absolutely unbelievable. It was in the 60s. She wasn't important at all. She was a classic, basic engineer in the, you know, um, design center of Airbus, but she was the first woman and the first to wear pants, which was absolutely shocking for everyone who expected her to wear, you know, just a skirt or dress like everybody else, right? Uh, you know what, uh, this isn't over yet. You know, there are many things, many people find it shocking that a woman would still be dressed like I am today. So, we're in 2026, so you know, you still have a long, long way to go.
What is, what is for me again, you know? I'm a big fan of, um, of, of diversity in the broad sense of it, you know? Men and women, various nationalities, but various social backgrounds as well. And maybe this is where we need to make progress again, you know? Um, we, we have a lot of people who have graduated, which is great, but maybe not that many from the difficult places in France, for instance. So maybe on the social background we still have to, basically, make a few improvements, if I'm honest. Okay, that will be the next battle, I think.
