So the first thing we're going to start. Hi, Eddie. How are you? Eddie just came in from Singapore, so let's give him a hand. What time is it for you?
Uh, yeah. Good. Good question. I think it's nighttime, but it's nighttime.
Okay. Um, so how about we kick things off? But, please, if you guys were going to show a clip from next week's episode, but we can't film it, so put all the cameras, put your phones down. All the cameras down, please. Thank you. Right. You guys want to see a clip from episode 209? All right, put him down. I feel like Al Pacino. Dog day afternoon. Put him down. All right, here we go. Here's a clip from episode 209.
Uh, so. Weird to show that out of context. Um. Uh, you know, it's great to be here with Ben. Uh, this show is is just it's truly incredible and amazing and I can't wait for every episode, even even though I have access to all of them, I tend to wait.
Do you on purpose till they come out because of it?
Uh, I just love the storytelling. There's so much behind it. And it's been, I think, a long time since we've seen a show like this where it's captured so many people's imagination and and the culture, uh, and the audience. And this reminds me of shows back in the days when television, you'd tune in on a particular night, and everybody was so excited all week to get to the next episode. And that's what this is like.
I mean, what is it that you think about this show that's that's caused this incredible cultural zeitgeist?
Uh, I yeah, I wish I knew because then you do that every time you do anything. Um, I mean, I think it was Dan Erickson wrote this, uh, this pilot script about, I guess, 9 or 10 years ago that had such an interesting concept to it that I think was so relatable and so interesting to contemplate the idea of, you know, of cutting off one part of your life. I think it came out of the fact that he worked in a job that he really disliked in a door factory, and he was thinking about how can he just skip past his, you know, 8 or 10 hours a day, um, of being there. And I think that concept really resonates with people who are, you know, having to spend their lives doing things to, to make a living and, you know, parts of your life that you just don't want to deal with. The other part of it, I think, is that there's a huge metaphor in there in terms of just the questions of like, what's going on at this company and what are we doing? What are we doing when we go to work? What are we doing with our lives? Um, you know, for me, it really resonated in terms of, um, you know, the, the workplace comedy. It almost felt to me like, uh, The Office or Parks and Rec or. But then had this weird sort of Twilight Zone element to it and the idea of like, what if you worked at a, at an office where there was just sort of this, you know, day to day office banter, but you didn't know who you were or what you were doing or why you were doing it, which is kind of like life, I think, in really when you get down to it. So I think that sort of, you know, people picked up on that and it's been an interesting build to, you know, you talk about this like week to week that the show is on, but also this show has had a chance to build over the last what is it, three years? Um, we had a long time in between seasons, which wasn't intentional, but, uh, I think the first season was during Covid. We we were shooting in the heart of the Covid period, which was already felt very sort of disconnected and kind of dystopian in its own way. We'd have to test every day. And people were in hazmat suits directing actors with, you know, face masks on and PPE. And so it all it all kind of I think fed into the timing. Even though he had written it way before, this kind of idea of severing from people and connecting with people and or our human connections. And I think ultimately that's what the show is about. And it's been fun to watch how the audiences have gone beyond just the concept. I think of the show, which is, you know, that that thing I was just talking about, but also it really then becomes about the relationships and the emotional stories that, you know, people are connecting with and they get emotionally invested with the characters. And I'm sure, as you know, I think any, uh, good storytelling is always going to come down to the emotional connection, I think, with the the characters in the story, you know? Um, so, yeah.
One of the best ways you can see this is people can't get enough. And one of one of the ways you see that is it's on podcasts, YouTube channels, um, you name it. Reddit. Uh, there's this people talking about the show.
Yeah. All the time. Yeah. No, it's it's really incredible because, as you know, and also in this day and age, it's so hard to have something that, um, that, that breaks through and that you can actually get people to watch and to see because there's so much I mean, you know, our generation, we're about the same age. You know, it was different. You go to the movies. The movies were the thing when we were kids, um, and television was television. But there wasn't all this other stuff out there. And I'm sure I'm curious how you deal with that. As someone who is running Apple TV and music and I mean, there are all these different elements that are grabbing people's attention and how, you know, to actually get a conglomerate of people who actually are paying attention to the thing you're making, because there are so many good things out there, it's just hard to get people's attention.
Yeah. It's just it's, you know, you're competing with everything because there's so many things that's available to you. You know, we're starting to show our age by talking about it that way. But yeah, there's whether it's all of the online pieces, all the, all the media that's available to you, you just have access to everything 24 by seven, wherever you are. But the online piece is, is fun because it's, um, even I do. I watch one of the YouTube channels after after the episodes and they go through like just intricate detail of trying to see what the story is about.
Any, any do you sever yourself away from those, or have you ever looked at those and come up with any other ideas or any crazy theories that you've seen there?
Yeah, it's very, uh, it's dangerous to go there, I think, because there are so many ideas. It's kind of crazy. I mean, I, I, I've checked in on some of the podcasts and I usually listen to them until they say anything that's critical of one of the episodes. And then I stop listening to them and never listen to them again.
No, but it's interesting, like, people have so many opinions. I mean, even like this week, this week's episode is very controversial for people. Um, you know, like, they have deep, deep feelings about it. And, you know, we tried to put as much detail as possible into the show when we were making it the first season, but never even knowing the first season that who would be watching it. So you just kind of make it for yourself. And, and we were in a bubble pretty much. I think we were lucky in that when we started out, you guys gave us a lot of creative freedom and have always, I think, given us that, you know, it's funny because people talk about, oh, wow, you know, Apple is a huge corporation and lumen is a huge corporation. And you know, so and I always felt like, yeah, this is actually the perfect show to be on Apple because there's something in the aesthetic, there's something in the ideas of what's going on. But I've never once ever gotten any, you know, like note or anything from Apple about anything we do. And I feel like that's kind of there's an intrigue about Apple, by the way, how is Apple doing? Because sometimes I worry, are you guys doing okay?
You know, it's it's a competitive world, which is great. But we're doing all right. We're okay. We're like you trying to trying to be our best and and create new things that people really love to use.
Okay. Good. Because sometimes when we, you know, if we go over budget a little, little. They'll say to me like, come on, guys. And and then I start to worry for you guys.
I, I appreciate I appreciate that. You guys are in the black. We're so far so good okay.
Cool. If you keep if you keep doing this as well as as you're doing, I think we're going to be okay. Uh, yeah. So, you know, you mentioned the show and season one, and as you're watching season two, um, the complexity and the details and how immersive the universe of this whole thing is. Um, and you go back and you're watching something in episode seven, and it showed up in season one. Episode two is a small thing. I mean, how do you do that?
Like, yeah, it's I mean, look, we have an amazing group of people that are working on the show, uh, starting with Dan Erickson, who created the show. Uh, you know, our, our writing team that's, you know, evolved over the last few years are just, you know, incredibly attentive to those details. But we also, uh, you know, like any show, I mean, I remember listening to Vince Gilligan talk about working on Breaking Bad and, you know, saying that there was, like, never any crumb that they didn't use somehow that was established in the storytelling. And I think, um, you know, we have a totally different process than that. But I think all of these little details, seeing how people have picked up on them and we were, you know, we were attentive to them in the first season. But the second season, it was really trusting the audience and knowing, wow, the audience is really going to to find these things. And they found things that are, you know, things that we didn't even put there, that they go, oh wait, oh my God, look at this. Look at the number on the library rack behind Gemma. And this. It's exactly the number of times that Mark walked in and out of his front door before he was reintegrating. Um, and and I'm like, yeah, that's it. Exactly.
Nice, nice. Um, but but then there are things that you put in intentionally that, you know, you think, no, maybe nobody's going to pick up on. I think, though, you know, what we tried to do, it's it's an imperfect process. And, you know, I would be lying if I said we had it all figured out internally, we know where we're going with the show, but I think the creative process on this show, it's very important to pick up. And when you're making any show, you have to pick up on what's resonating and sort of build off of that in terms of relationships on the show. Or I just, you know, I would call out like our last episode, episode seven, which, you know, people are flipping out for, was directed by Jessica Lee Gagnier, who is our cinematographer.
Yeah, it's a brilliant episode. Um, and Jessica has been working on the show from the beginning. We did a limited series before for Showtime, which is this other thing I'll tell you about. There are like a they show stuff on TV, but it's not Apple TV+. Um, but, uh, and they're not I don't know what's going on with Showtime. Do they exist anymore?
They do, they do. They're they're part of Paramount+ now. So.
Okay. Okay. Um, Apple TV+. Um, yeah. No. But so. So, you know, she's been with the show from the beginning and, uh, the depth of the work that she put in and, you know, and Mark Friedman, who wrote that with her and Dan Erickson and, you know, what we wanted to have there was the depth of this relationship with Gemma that was very important to this, you know, the whole overall story. And, you know, that was an important thing that we felt like we had to do that. You know, while there are lots of details and little Easter eggs and things like that in there, but really it's the emotional core that I feel, you know, people always come back to with the show.
Yeah. At the end and you're right, I think, um, the thing that makes this show, uh, really work is that you care deeply about the characters. You're emotionally invested. Um, you are on the edge of your seat at the same time, it has all of those components so that it's personal.
Yeah, it's definitely personal. And I think the work, uh, situation is something that so many people can relate to. I wonder if you if you worked on the severed floor, like if you were one of the characters in the show, which character would you who do you relate to the most?
Uh, good one. Uh, you know, I'd probably do Irving. I love the fact that Irving's all in on whatever it is it is. Right. And I kind of. I'm kind of like that. So I like that perspective of it. And, uh.
Well, Irving is, like, very loyal to the in the first season. He's very loyal to the company and the ideology of the company. And then he sort of starts to question, you know, question the reality. And like, what's really going on at lumen? Do you ever do that?
Yeah, no I do. Uh, I've only been at Apple 36 years, so, you know, uh, but I've never wanted to burn it to the ground like he did, but, uh.
Right, right. Um, well, that's good, that's good. No, that's really good. Yeah. Well, I know that. I mean, I did see that Tim Cook got severed, so he did. He he did, he did that. I mean, that was actually shot. That piece was shot in the actual Apple. Tim Cook did a piece where he went down in the elevator and got severed.
Well, it was it was funny. It was filmed in the Steve Jobs Theater on the Apple campus. And the back of the Steve Jobs theater is all white, kind of like the severance. And I remember when we watched, when the show came on, we were walking there once. I'm like, oh, we're inside the severance walking through this thing. And so yeah, so we thought it'd be a perfect place to film it.
It was like we made you stole it from us.
Yeah we did, we stole it from you. Yeah. We sent corporate spies in. You know, uh, I want to see another clip because.
Yes, I mean. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay, good. This is again, an out of context clip from next week's episode.
This Friday? Yeah, we get to see the rest. Um. It's cool. Also, I mean that, you know, what's been exciting too, is to see that that people have embraced the, um, the, the tone and the pacing of the show because, like, you like, that's not like, like a, you know, some car chase happening, but, you know, we I feel like the, you know, in this day and age right now, everybody's attention spans are getting so much shorter. Um, I mean, you guys must be. I'm just curious, you know, when you're, you're overseeing all these, you know, creative endeavors at Apple, how do you think about what you're making? And could you talk a little bit about like, you know, the overall like how do you do what you do? Because you're overseeing a lot and it's a world where it's really hard to get people's attention. How do you approach that?
Well, I think there's some similarities. A lot of what you said, which is in order to innovate. You can't be the same as everything else. And so one of the things that we try to do is to try to think sort of around the corner and take chances. And the way we're able to do that well is by having great people around us. Right. The fact that we've been able to work with you here, but the people I get to work with, the team that we have in TV+, you find the best people in the world to work with because they have incredible ideas and they're able. And then you give them an environment to go execute, make it easy to get rid of the problems when they come in and help out. Um, and what I found is if you put a lot of focus on doing a few things, not very many, but a few things and doing them really, really well, you can succeed in the way that we like. And so that's why we don't make a lot of products. We don't make a lot of TV shows because we don't know how to do that in quantity and try to be the best. And so I love that's what I loved about working with you and and your team. You're trying to be the best.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but but that model is challenging to to scale. To scale up, right? I mean, you're going to because you kind of started out saying we're not going to be, you know, we're not going to be what Netflix is doing where, you know, there's so much programming that you had to start in a very specific and focused way.
Yeah. But if you look, I mean, you can't. What do you describe this show as? You wouldn't describe it to somebody as a particular genre or a particular. Right. That's the beauty. When you do something that's great, it should resonate with a lot of people and hopefully everyone. And so when we think about our shows and we think about our products, we're not designing them for a small subset of people. We design them for everyone we realize we may not get, you know, everyone to watch or everyone to, to, to use our products, but we think of them in that way. But again, if you if you focus on doing a few things, you might, you know, you might get something right. And I think that the show has done that in spades. I mean, it's been a long time since I've seen a show capture the imagination. I was in Singapore last week, and when I was talking to people that that knew I was involved with TV+, this is like the first thing that comes up. And so it's a global thing. Um, because it's, it's it's gotten people's heart.
Well, and I feel like you do that with all the shows that you have on the service. They're all I mean, it's I think they're all really specific and high quality. And you support the creative, you know, people who are making the shows. Like I said, I've always felt totally creatively supported and, um, I'm just I'm just, you know, curious though, you know, do you have in your mind and coming back to this question I was asking, like in your mind when you you see. Okay. Say we're going to start small and then we're going to build it out because it's hard to to scale it out and keep the quality, isn't it?
