Engineer Naguib Sawiris, Executive Chairman of Orascom Investment Holding. Do you like being called the Executive Chairman, or do you prefer just 'Naguib'? You're not the traditional businessman type with ties and all that. Your look, even the picture we have here, is always different. You wear t-shirts with Mickey Mouse, you play DJ. You're different. Do you like this different look, or is it something recent?
No, no, I like it like this. I don't like to be like anyone else in anything. I always want to be different. So if I wear a formal suit, it must have a twist. It shouldn't just be a standard formal suit. If it's a tie, it shouldn't be a regular tie; it should have something to it. That's just how I am. I like to be different.
Different. And if this difference exposes you to criticism, do you have a problem with that?
No, no, I'm like this anyway, so it doesn't matter.
The answers you wrote down earlier have some very interesting things. Your first job was washing dishes. Where?
Yes, it was in Germany, in Munich.
And what made you wash dishes?
My father, when I was traveling, would buy me a student ticket, the discounted one. It had specific schedules, and he would give me 50 marks. Those 50 marks would run out after a week. So I told my dad, 'Dad, these 50 marks won't last me more than a week.' He said, 'Fine, if you can't find a job, come back.' So when I arrived, I couldn't find anything other than this job. I didn't want to go back, so I took the first job I found. It was a terrible job, only God knows about it. There weren't even machines back then; it was all done by hand. Scrubbing dishes. I was studying then?
No, no, it was summer vacation. I was 16 years old. I would go in the summer to make some money and bring it back.
Naguib, son of Onsi Sawiris, needs to make some money in the summer?
Yes, I didn't take anything from my father. From the beginning, I wanted to be self-made, to build myself. And my father was okay with that.
But people might watch this and not believe it. They might say it's not possible that Onsi Sawiris's son, even if he was orphaned and struggled, would do that. We didn't grow up like that.
I mean, my father was very smart in his way of raising us. He did the same with all of us. Even Samih worked as a waiter.
I don't know what Nassef worked as.
Do you do the same with your children?
Yes, I did the exact same thing with my children. Maybe I was a bit kinder or more generous, but their mother was very strict with them.
Yes, so I would play the role of the one who, behind her back, would maybe do something for them. She was very strict with all of them.
Let's go back to the journey. Your first job was washing dishes. Did you ever feel like giving up?
No, thank God, no. Because within the first three days of that terrible job, I used my brain and found a job as a waiter.
So the waiter job was better, kinder, and paid more.
Yes, a bellboy. The dishwashing job paid pennies and was without a permit. The guy was exploiting the fact that I was working without a permit, so he gave me a low salary. Then I became a bellboy, so I earned more, plus tips.
Was your first project funded by your father?
No, no, it was a small thing. My father had a friend who dealt with air conditioners. We found someone who had imported the wrong AC units and didn't know what to do with them. We found someone who needed them. So a friend and I, he brought the client and I brought the item. We made the deal, of course, we didn't split the money equally. We made 8,000 pounds. I was 18 or 16 then. That was the first deal I made.
Was that the first deal you made?
No, when I was very young, I used to play billiards and was very good at it. I would win at billiards and sell the balls to the kids at the Gezira Club and make money. From the beginning, I had a good business sense.
From when you were young, did you say you wanted to be the richest man in the world?
Yes, I wanted to be like that in school. And the reason wasn't money. I saw that money is power. So I said if I have it all, I can do the most good. I can change policies. I had a dream to create a private army and go break down the Berlin Wall that divided East and West Germany. I was in a German school and saw the suffering of the East Germans. When I went to East Berlin, they would be crying in the street, feeling trapped. I came from West Germany and was deeply affected. I wished I could go and break that wall, until God intervened.
Do you still see money as power?
Has your view of money changed over the years?
No, no, no. Money was never my goal to buy a nice car or a house. It's not for material things. It's just that it gives you the power to do good, not just small good, but good on a very large scale.
You wrote that you made your first million when you were 26.
Yes, that was after I started a company with the same friend from the AC deal. We started a small import-export company. We were about to close after a year because we ran out of money, but then God gave us a small job. Two years later, each of us had made $250,000. Of course, it wasn't a million pounds because back then the dollar was 70 piasters. But $250,000 when I was 25, he and I were the two richest people in Egypt at that age.
What did you do with the money first?
I bought myself a car for $4,000, a Mazda 323. And I bought an apartment for $50,000 to be independent.
Independent. I went to Onsi and told him I made $250,000.
Did I go to Mrs. Yousriya and tell her your son is smart and made $250,000? No, no. My father always knew I was smart. I was top of my class in secondary school, so he believed in me from day one.
Now, what's your ranking? Last year you were number 400 on the Forbes Bloomberg list. This time they put you at 300-something. We've advanced a lot.
That's not the measure. If we assume money is success, then being among the most successful 500 people in the world is good. The number itself doesn't matter. Let me tell you something. Like when you see Samih, when you see him talk, we were all raised on contentment and thanking God for everything. None of us is extravagant. No one has a garage with 12 cars, or 30 people walking with him, one carrying his bag, one opening his door, and all that empty talk. None of that.
Naguib, you take a taxi to go to the cinema. A normal person.
That keeps you always connected to reality. One of the things I do, whether my driver is praying or not around, and I'm in a hurry, is take a taxi. I sit next to the driver and ask for his political opinion, how the country is, if he can live on the taxi fare. The last time I took a taxi was about a year ago. I had a conversation with the guy. When I got out, I gave him a large amount. He said, 'No, this is too much, Engineer.' I said, 'Look, my money brings luck, so you shouldn't refuse it.' He insisted it was too much. I told him, 'No, keep it. Don't spend it. Keep it for a rainy day so it always brings you luck.'
Naguib walks around with money in his pocket.
Yes, for the valet and the doorman. What's in your wallet?
Right now, with current prices, it has at least 4,000 pounds. You give the valet how much now? And if you see someone poor or someone at a traffic light, you give them something. What's in the wallet besides money?
What's in the wallet besides money?
Credit cards. Do you carry photos? Photos of the kids?
No, I keep them on my phone. I don't like to show my children's photos in the media or anywhere.
Are you afraid of the evil eye?
Yes, I am. Unfortunately, in this matter, I am.
But you believe that everything is by God's will. You are a very religious family, both you and Samih. I feel this is Mrs. Yousriya's upbringing.
Yes. Look, my mother instilled in us the fear of God and the love of God. Both. The fear of God so you don't do what angers Him, and the love of God so you know He is always with you.
How do you measure your success in business? From Forbes, from the amount of money, or do you feel an improvement?
No, of course, from the value of the companies I own. When the valuations go up, I feel it. That's the only indicator of success in our business.
You were the first to say gold would pass $3,500 an ounce. Then a year or two ago, you said it would pass $5,000. It passed $5,000. Where do you see it going?
I see it going to $6,000.
Yes, by the end of the year. But of course, I'm not a prophet. Understand? No one should follow my words and then say I said it and it didn't happen. There are five or six factors pushing it up. If one of them disappears, it won't matter because all six are pushing. It's like six people pushing a car; if one leaves, the other five can still push it. I saw these factors early on. I haven't sold anything in these past few years, except a little recently. Do I regret a deal I missed? No, no, I never regret anything. You never know where the good is. The deal that doesn't happen, I say God didn't see the good in it for me, so I'm not sad about it at all.
In your investment portfolio, I remember you said half is now gold and a third is real estate, and you've added a bit more. How do you divide it now?
No, now it's maybe 70% gold and 30% all other activities.
70% gold. And because of that, what job do you like? You work in real estate and you work in...
No, I like the real estate job more than gold and mining. Mining, you have to go underground and come back up, stay for three days in terrible places, eat bad food, and sleep terribly. From these development projects, you build things and go see the happiness of the people who live there. You leave something physical, visible to people, and you see their happiness. Most people who go to our projects say they never imagined it would turn out like this. Of course, there are people who are never satisfied; God is not pleased with them. They don't thank God for anything.
If you made your first million at 26, when was your first billion?
Well, a billion today is not a billion from 20 or 30 years ago. I didn't make a billion back then. The dollar wasn't even 5 pounds. I didn't make it until after I started Orascom Telecom.
After Orascom Telecom, of course.
Yes, with Orascom Telecom, I passed it.
We'll stop at Orascom Telecom because it was a very important transition in Naguib Sawiris's life. We'll take a break, and the journey continues.
In your answers at the beginning of the episode, you said the biggest amount you lost was 500 million pounds. Where did you lose it?
