Naguib Sawiris, thanks so much for joining me and happy birthday.
I want to ask you how you see the world today.
Well, the simple answer is the world is in a mess. You have this never-ending war between Russia and Ukraine that people tended to forget now with the Middle East war. It's not looking to a conclusion. Now they're bombarding cities and innocent people are dying. And Putin says it's going to end soon, but he doesn't say how it's going to end it. We have the split between the US and Europe, which could mean that NATO could be dismantled during this presidency. He's still got two, three years. We have the giant China, we don't know what's going to happen with Taiwan. And then we come to our war here, which has been extended now from between Israel occupying Lebanon and then Iran showing the surprise resilience that they've shown. The split in the Arab world between all the Gulf countries, you know, Egypt's position, everything is a total mess.
Where does this leave Egypt in your mind?
I always say it's very simple. I'm not a politician. So my best advice to everyone: stand with whoever is right. And it's clear who is right. So stand with whoever is right. And also you need to stand with your brothers and your neighbors and the ones who supported you in all their lifetime. This should be the position of each.
And who's right in that scenario?
Who's right? All the Gulf is right, but specifically the Emirates is right because they got 70% of the hits. I mean, Iran selected, single selected. I have my conspiracy theory, okay? So I think that what happened is some of the Arab countries made a hidden deal with Iran, you know, because why would Iran do so? And I'm sure the only one who did not is the Emiratis. And I know the leadership of the Emirates, they're not the kind of people who will do deals behind their brothers' back. So the Iranians should know that. And that's why, this is my explanation, why they selected the Emirates to bombard them with 60%. It's one of the reasons that they felt that they're defiant and that they will defend themselves really in reality, not like that. Second is because they resemble everything of every sign of life, success that is not existing in Iran. Remember that there were 300,000 Iranians living in the Emirates. So they see the quality of life, they see the ease of life, they see the prosperity, and they compare on what's happening in their own country in Iran. And remember before this war, what was happening in Iran? There were demonstrations complaining from the economy, complaining from the life, from everything. There was the woman veil, they killed a woman, she's not wearing the veil. There was all that was happening in Iran. Iran was on the verge of collapse before the war. Actually, the war came to save Iran.
How much, and I just want to ask if you were to hazard a guess, how much life has this war given back to that Iranian government in terms of 10 years, 20 years?
No, it's the wrong question. The right answer is zero because post this war, they still have to confront their economic situation and now it's worse with all the bombardment that happened and the money they need to spend again in weaponizing themselves and so on.
But the argument there would be that it's been bad for years depending on the sanctions.
Yes. But there was a sign of revolution between the people when they went to the streets, which they ended by killing 30,000 of their own people. It's not forgotten.
So you think the day that this ends, then their days are numbered.
Unless we give them the blood, the 25 billion or 30 billion again, like Obama did the first time. He gave them the bloodline and what did they do? They continued doing their nuclear enrichment and they continued building their rockets that we have seen now. And then Mr. Trump comes, says we finished them, and his friend Netanyahu, they finished it. And then what happens? We see the rockets still coming out and the drones and everything. So it's important, in my personal view, I know, and don't tell me how to achieve that because it's simple: if this war ends with the regime still in place, then this war is a defeat. Number one. Number two, regardless of what people think, the people of Iran will not stay quiet post this war because they still have the economy suffering, they still have been struggling in their lives, and they still won't have their freedom. It is difficult for them to revolt now when you're throwing bombards and they have to side with their country being attacked. So it's not the right moment for a regime change. But in my personal opinion, regime change is going to happen for 100%.
So, is that then a win for President Trump?
No, it had nothing to do with it. Had nothing to do with it. And right now you cannot declare that, even if he's going to move any deal, he's going to portray it as a win and victory and so on. But the fact is, right now, no. This war had many surprises. First surprise is the resilience of Iran towards this mega destruction. This is a surprise. Second surprise is the readiness of the Emirates in facing this evil, unwarranted attack. This is a surprise even to people, to me, that know them. That they were able to defend themselves in this excellence beyond belief. They get 60%, 70% of the attacks and their score is 96%, 97%. That's another surprise, you know, because as much as I know that the leadership is futuristic, is well educated, is very wise, is kind, but they're tough. And that has been shown in this war. The third surprise is betrayal. Betrayal of some of, I won't name the countries, but there has been a lot of betrayal within the Gulf countries, trying to appease with Iran one way or the other. That's betrayal because we need to stand with each other.
What's the long-term damage of that in your mind for the Gulf?
I would call it short-term damage, but long-term memory and long-term endurance. Everybody's on his own now. What's this war? Every country will say, 'No, I won't depend on my brothers and sisters anymore. There's nothing called the unity. There's nothing called the Gulf Council, nothing called the Arab League. Now the cards are open.' Who's my friend is my friend and who's my enemy is my enemy.
Tell me this. How much was the decision by the UAE to join the Abraham Accords to blame for this scenario that we find ourselves?
To blame? It's their own choice. They want to make peace with the country that we, and Egypt here, signed a peace treaty in 1975 or '76, I don't remember when. So the narrative that making peace with Israel... We signed a peace deal with Israel. Jordan signed a peace deal with Israel. The Abraham Accords are nothing more than a peace deal. And what does it say? We believe in the three holy religions. Yes, we all believe in the three holy religions. What's wrong about that? What's wrong is to say I want to annihilate Israel, I want to wipe Israel from the map of the world. That's wrong because there are people living there. They have become a nation. It's not something you can reverse now. And there is no need to speak about all the missed opportunities in the history of this Israeli-Arab conflict. Missed opportunities starting from 1948 when the UN said there would be a two-state solution, which we refused. And we did '67, then '73, the war, and then now the Oslo Accords, and then the Clinton paper. I mean, I can list all the missed opportunities from the Palestinian authorities or whoever was in charge, starting with Yasser Arafat to Abu Mazen to everybody to Hamas. So it's not wrong to admit to the mistakes we did. I still believe in a two-state solution. And that's my dream. But also, and I know that this statement will not sell well in the Arab streets. If you want to be my neighbor, you don't attack me by surprise and kill my women and children and kill 1,200 of my own people and expect me to think, 'Yeah, that's the kind of neighbor I want.' Did they take this into account that they want to have peace one day and live with these people, or they wanted revenge for also some atrocities coming from the Israeli side? It's not like they don't have these crazy settlers that don't have even a heart. They go into people's homes, they destroy the homes. They want to take their land, take their homes, and the Israeli police stands there and doesn't intervene. So you're allowing gangs, gangsters and people like that to take what's not theirs. So you're not helping a peace solution, too. But what happened October 7 is definitely a disaster.
Tell me this. Post conflict, what does the region look like?
Post conflict. Post war with Iran.
Post conflict. I think the Emirates will strengthen its relation with Israel because this conflict should... your friends are neighbors and allies. I'm not practically there. And other countries also will go their own way, which they are on their own way now. Like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait will be on its own. Oman has chosen sides already, so I don't know what they will do. Egypt, thank God, we finally did what we should have done from day one.
Standing with the Emirates and sending our excess military that we have, that we haven't used since 1973, to support the country that has stood by us, saved the Egyptian economy with the mega deal of $35 billion in Ras El Hekma. And Sheikh Mohammed has been the godfather of Egypt for all his life. And his father was also the best friend Egypt had. His father told his sons, 'Watch over Egypt.' And they did. So when this war stands, we should be the first one to be next.
Tell me this. As an investor, where do you put your money today?
Look, it's a good question. I will put my money wherever the management of the country is at its best.
That's the only, in my personal opinion, it's one of the few places in the Arab world that the rulers care about their people, improve their people's lives, provide their people with everything they can do, and they manage their country as an open country for investments.
You're talking about the UAE.
UAE. Yes. And you arrive, in 5 minutes you're outside. You want the permit, no time, it comes, your ID, your residency, everything is going like this. So I double down. Yeah. I feel safe there.
Yeah. What about the rest of the world?
Look, the problem with the president of the US is he's making the whole world restless. Whether he knows that or he means that or he doesn't care about that, I don't know. Even you're negotiating with the Iranians in Pakistan and then you make a tweet of 'they don't agree, I'm going to do this and that' and then time passes and you don't do this and that. So why are you threatening? The more you threaten, the more you lose your credibility. Personally, even me as a person, I've never threatened anybody. But if he's attacked me and he's hurt me or my dad or my kids or anybody, before he's going home, he'll find 30 tons of concrete on his head without me saying anything, without even taking responsibility. You understand? But this is my style. So if you keep on saying 'I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that' and you fail to deliver, and you don't deliver, and now they actually humiliated him during when Vance was supposed to go to Islamabad and he's on the plane and they say 'no game' and he has to go back.
Is this a president that's lost all credibility?
I think this final agreement will answer your question. What is this final agreement? Is it a win for Iran? And we will be the judge, not President Trump. Yes, we will be the judge. The problem is, for the first time he had a call with all the leaders, the first time. Before that he was doing all the deals. He made a ceasefire with Iran without consulting the Arab nations or even telling them that he's going to do that. And what happened after the ceasefire? Iran started bombarding, sending rockets on the Emirates again. So how can you make a deal without your partners? I mean, you make a deal of a ceasefire that does not include not sending rockets on the Emirates. So we'll wait and see this deal. Personally, I think the war that ends with this regime still in place with another $25 billion is not a victory. No, it's a loss. Just giving them another lifeline.
Tell me gold. Is that a place to put your money?
Of course. Yeah. I mean, I put it 10, 12 years, I'm still in.
Look, AI, only now people start to feel the dangers AI will bring. And while they were developing AI, they had not developed the anti-AI. You understand? It's like when you're investigating a virus. I'm not saying AI is a virus, but let's say it's a virus. So you are seeing how the virus is happening and then you forget that you need to have a pill against this virus. So you have to have a way to shut it down. You have to be able to shut down and to prevent through AI the misuse. Now I can have your face with your expressions, your voice speaking in an interview without you being there, and you won't tell the difference because they take your voice, they put it on your... So, who's going to believe what now? Maybe this is a fake interview, too. No, but first danger. Second danger is illegal activities. Forgery, theft, attacks, all the things you can do. Worsening the image of someone you hate, the damage happens. So, where are the filters? Where are the regulations? There's no regulator for AI right now. It was just all about winning. And history has shown that we tend to develop things that are misused. Even the nuclear bomb was originally, nuclear power was supposed to be used for energy, not to bombard Nagasaki and Hiroshima and kill hundreds of thousands of people. So this AI, my biggest concern is where is it going to take us. Maybe the next war will be with robots and someone playing with a play game. The next war might be like that, robots who go and fight with AI and every country can have its own 1 million people army. I'm just worried about that.
