We all have to make big decisions in our lives, decisions that define and influence our professional and personal journeys. If you reflect on them, some are good and some I’m sure you definitely regret. In my nearly three decades as a financial journalist, I have interviewed literally thousands of CEOs, politicians and market voices, and they all had to make decisions and choices to get where they are today. In this podcast, I hear about those decisions as well as the moments of doubt, risk and conviction that impacted our guest’s journeys and the people they lead. This is Executive Decisions with me, Steve Sedgwick. In this episode I speak to Estelle Brachlianoff. Estelle is the CEO of Veolia, a global leader in energy, waste and water management. She leads more than 200,000 employees across 56 countries. But her ambition to lead began at home, inspired by her mother and grandmother.
It's true that I come from a kind of genealogy of maybe powerful women who break the barriers and the boundaries which were supposed to be put on them.
Channeling the strength of the women who came before her, Estelle continues to seize opportunities, be curious and trust her gut.
The guy has everything it takes will be all right, my gut feel was telling me, not so sure. I should have trusted my gut feel on that one, which doesn't mean that gut feel is everything, but you know, there is an element of ticking boxes or rationale is not always the way to make the right decisions.
These are Estelle Brachlianoff’s Executive Decisions. Estelle, it's so lovely to see you again, and I've been privileged to interview you several times, but I've never had the ability to have a long interview with you talking about your past as well, so I'm very excited about knowing what decisions you have made in your life and where you're at now. Let me start with a question, why aren't you an astrophysicist or an astronaut? And I say that, of course, because that's what you wanted to be.
Yeah, that was my dream from a very, very young age actually. And there is still a bit in me of fascination about all that. I still look at the stars with lots of pleasure. And why didn't I become that? It started with me being very young and opening this book that was offered with all formulas super complex about astrophysics, Einstein and everything. I couldn't make anything out of it. And it ended up into the last year of my university, where I finally understood what was written in this book, which why I was given when I was six or seven. Astronauts, I wouldn't have the physical ability like at all that I'm certain. Astrophysicist, I've done bit of astrophysics in my life, and research altogether, because I've done a bit of quantum physics as well. I loved it. But I'm more curious about people, curious about discovering new things than just going deep into something, maybe. And the idea of spending 20, 30, 40 years studying the same very narrow subject with just three or four people who can discuss, in the world almost, who can have really an interaction on this subject, was really what prevented me from going into this type of career.
You come from an extraordinary background. I know that your mother was an engineer, and she was at Aérospatiale and at Airbus as well. She was a forerunner for women everywhere. But you also tell me your grandmother was of a similar vein as well. So, just tell me a little bit about the huge influence that your mother and your grandmother have had in your career now in making your decisions.
Well, it's true that I come from a kind of genealogy of maybe powerful women who break the barriers and the boundaries which were supposed to be put on them. So, there is a bit of freedom in those two. Actually, the grandmother I'm talking to about is the mother of my father, and, of course, my mother. The two of them, they had the freedom, they don't impose anything on me. I'm doing exactly what I want, and I really care about. For my grandmother, she was quite adventurous, if you say that in English, lady in the 50s, she would travel to Afghanistan trekking and experience and things like that. She run a very free personal life. She had kids, but she didn't stay very long with my grandfather, at a time where it was not that common. She lived her whole life in a way, in exactly the way she wanted. So, no nothing imposed on her. She didn't like that. And my mother was quite, quite similar in that respect. She always said, Estelle, you do whatever you wish in life, but whatever you wish, don't have anybody imposing anything that you don't really want and don't depend on anybody, including on a man. So, be autonomous. Earn your living so you can be free. That was the big theme, I guess.
That clearly has rubbed off on you from a very early age. They were your biggest influences?
Oh, probably yes, in that there was something about you can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you have the will, as long as you work hard, there is a work ethics as well, which I was given by my mother in particular. And you can do whatever you want. Doesn't mean to be only professional. I mean, if you want to be a mother of your kids and stay at home, that's perfectly all right, but you are the one choosing.
Did your mom have to make some big sacrifices to have that incredible career, ultimately, at Airbus?
I guess, she was really the first of her kind, because she studied aeronautics, she entered Airbus, and she was the first woman ever in the design center of Airbus, at that time, we're on the 60s, early 70s, she dared wearing trousers instead of a skirt, which was absolutely shocking, and all other anecdotes like that, which she was telling me when I was a kid.
The influence is there you went to the École Polytechnique as well. And you carried on your education as well. And you moved into the workplace in, I think, 1998 working in Val-d'Oise infrastructure projects as well. Did you start in your business career, thinking you were going to stay in infrastructure and that kind of area. Or did you think in that stage, actually, it was a bridge to other jobs or other careers?
Oh, neither. I never had any idea of what was next. And honestly, each time I was given the impression that it was a clear, almost a bit too linear a path. I walked away and said, no I want to do something else. So, I ended up into a nice university called Polytechnique, not having any idea about what I wanted to do, professionally speaking, and then entering into what was a civil service for infrastructure. And I thought that great, because it makes sense, in a way, but I discovered it whilst I was doing it.
Yes, as it went along, as opposed to an intention of any sort, if I'm honest. But there is the idea about, I could have picked other routes. So, each time I'm like, I'm letting things flow and opportunities arise, and then, okay, what about doing that? So, I'm letting myself be surprised, but then I'm quick in seizing the opportunities as well and never seeing it as a risk. More, we'll give it a go. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I'm going to do something else, that's more the mindset.
I love that, and it really tallies with what I try to tell my own children, that you don't have to create a career at an early stage, it will happen. Be curious. Be curious. And so this show is called Executive Decisions, but at that stage of your career, it's almost executive indecision. Just let it go. Just try different things. Is that important for you that you were able to try different things and make decisions based on how you felt, rather than some predetermined destiny?
I guess it's not only about letting the flow go. There is an amount of this side to seize the opportunity, you still have a decision, but it's not a decision as a path. It's a path. It's a decision as in the oh, there is something here I'm excited about. Let's give it a go. But there has to be this excitement there, so follow your guts, and then if it doesn't work, that's not a big deal. I guess it's more this way around, rather than just letting things flow as they go.
Your career started at around the same time that people got serious about greenhouse gases. They got serious about the environmental challenge. And I checked back, Kyoto and the commitments, the first real commitments, were roughly at the time when you entered the serious workplace as well. So, look, you wanted to be an astronaut or an astrophysicist. Let's face it, they're quite racy careers. They're exciting careers as well. Whereas someone might say, oh, engineering, I'm not so sure, but the kind of field you went into, by coincidence I guess, suddenly started getting really, really interesting and meaning something in the late 90s. Were you aware of that?
Yes and no, I guess the key things for me were curiosity and discovering new things. The gut feel about the I'm going to get some excitement about it. There are going to be adventure. There are going to be something moving fast. And that's what made me join Veolia in the first place. And it has to have a meaning. We're here to earn a living, of course. But you know, we spend a lot of time in the day, and to bring your little brick into something larger than you is something which is important for me, so I guess it's more the way I would phrase it.
Something I really have noticed a lot with these Executive Decision interviews, that it's not just the job. It is not absolutely about the money. It is absolutely not about being the CEO. It is about meaning something and leaving some form of legacy, or being something in a greater good. I look at the lot of commentary from you. I've interviewed you several times as well. Do you really feel that a lot of your decisions that you've made in your career are about trying to help the greater good, rather than just help Estelle Brachlianoff's career?
The world is not exactly easy at times. And you can complain. You can complain about politician, you can complain about the economics. You can complain about many things. This is not my way. I'm more the what can I do about it, and from a very early stage in my career, what can I do about it? So, I seize the opportunity and try to make something. So build solution, build ideas, build teams, rather than just complaining or waiting till the big schemes would be ready. That's more action oriented, which is my big driver from very, very earlier on. And in that respect, if you'll let the freedom with this mindset and the big framework, which I think is exactly what Veolia is about. That's why I've enjoyed so much my 21 years in this company.
Yeah, I mean, you and I are rare beasts, people. Well, in many ways, you're very rare but, but we've both done over two decades at the same company as well. That's a conscious decision, and I'm 99% sure you would have had some fantastic offers over the years.
Perhaps me less so. But in terms of why you've stayed at Veolia for 21 years. Now, obviously you're at the top of the tree. But why did you stay as you were building your career?
No, and you're right, in the various offers I was given, I was not already the Chief Exec of the company, and each time I've said no to these offers, it was pretty much always for the same reasons. One is, I just generally love this company, the teams, the project, the ambition, and it was about people as well, there is a kind of very engaged series of people, and there is an element of being together into that. The second thing is, a great balance between an ability to act and do and level of freedom to do, and actually an ability that it can make a difference. So, that's what I'm trying to keep in the organization, so a lot of the managers can feel it's kind of their own making to do whatever with the business they're in charge of. Of course, there is a series of rules and a big agenda, but it's down to them in the end. And this level of ability to act yourself and make a difference yourself was always what made me stay in Veolia.
Look there's a lot of executives at different levels watching this, and they're working at those companies that they're in their silo, and they've got their KPIs, and they don't have that autonomy.
Of course, don't misunderstand me you have lots of KPIs in Veolia, but the idea is, ownership. This is yours. Those are the rules, within those rules, and within the strategy, you make it your own.
Was that something that you inherited from others and then you've tweaked into your own style?
I think it's very much embedded into the organization from a very, very early stage. But that's a very, it sounds like a new idea, rather than something that's been around for 20 years. No. And I guess this is always to strike the right balance. It's decentralized and well, as well as tiered. Of course, the two have to go, you have to work on the two legs, well listed company, of course, we have a lot of constraints which go with that, and opportunities as well. But to ensure that at the granular level, every single manager feels like, you know what the rules are clear, the ambition is clear. Now it's on me. I think this is important, and it's more a daily fight to keep it this way, against all type of overruling things and dispersing decision in too many different places.
If you become a CEO, you love making decisions, there is no doubt about it, you like being the one to make those bold and brave and big decisions at the end of day. But what's the style before you make that decision? Do you listen to everyone and say, right, I will make this decision now. Or actually, how do you get to those big decisions as well? What's your style? What are your colleagues going to tell me about Estelle's style and how she makes decisions?
So, a few things. As long as you're not trying to make only good decisions, I think it's not that difficult to make decisions at all. I started my first job, actually, was building highways in the outskirts of Paris. The idea is to move fast and to get the most of your decision being the right one, but to accept that at times there will be wrong decisions, but you have to correct them quickly. I think as long as you have this, as opposed to be paralyzed by I have to have all the analysis of everything in mind before I move on. And maybe this has shaped the way I decide, I must say. So, the idea is, again, to get most of them right, but as well to realize that you know what, of course, you make wrong decisions, but you have to correct them as well. So, in terms of how do I make decisions? Probably it starts with vision, really, and gut feel. So, it starts with me, and then I'm trying to test, as in the okay, how does it ring? What does bring to life when I tell you this? And then you can tweak a little bit, correct a little bit, or confirm, and at times console, but I guess it starts with yourself.
Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that, because my managers, over the years, my colleagues, are watching so, my manager's over the year's said, feedback, Steven, you need to be better at taking feedback, and when there's something that perhaps you don't like, perhaps you need to express it in a different way, or whatever. So, when I make mistakes, I think I'm better now, but I haven't always been brilliant at taking the feedback, oh I've made mistakes. What about you when you make mistakes? Can you think of any of the big Executive Decisions you've got wrong over the years? Can you think of anything in particular?
Oh yes, I could think of one and I could mention it. In terms of feedback, that's interesting. I generally think I'm open to okay, Estelle, you've done this wrong. I don't feel like we're heading in the right direction there. The question is not, if you are ready only to accept, to be hearing that and to take it in on board, but if people know that you're ready to accept, so there, at times, there is a little bit of people would think I wouldn't be ready to accept this type of criticism, where I'm generally am. So, people who know me better know that I'm, it's quite the opposite. I love debating. I love the hmm.. Not so sure about that. What do you make of it? And the ooh Estelle what about this? Okay, right. Let's have a look. But people who know me a bit less, at times wouldn't dare and they should. For instance, a bad decision I made, I won't put names into it, was to appoint somebody who was ticking almost all the boxes of the job I appointed him to do, but didn't have the fire in the belly, and my brain overcame, in a way, my guts on that one, I said, okay, but the guy has everything it takes will be all right, my gut feel was telling me, not so sure. I should have trusted my gut feel on that one, which doesn't mean that gut feel is everything, but you know, there is an element of ticking boxes or rationale is not always the way to make the right decisions.
Is the personnel side of things up there with the hardest parts of doing your job, the fact that so many people are parts of the organization, and getting them all to move in the right direction with that fire in their belly. Is the personnel side, where the hardest decisions are sometimes?
