One thing I was very sure that I am not going to work for anybody else. I have to be in my own business. I don't want to report to anybody else.
Would you say that an MBA today is something that you would encourage people to do?
I think MBA teaches you some basic business. Doesn't teach you everything. We have an 80% market share in masala. I like to pioneer new things. I like to be the first mover.
Did your son want to come into the business?
My son was very upset and we had a, I won't call it a strained relationship, but we didn't have the best of relationships. Each individual in this world has some god-given gift. Problem is most of us don't know what is our gift.
You went to a Gujarati medium school.
Okay. Which was bilingual.
And yet your, so obviously your later on your English because it was bilingual, you know, improved much more.
You all didn't go to any fancy, though you all were a, you know, wealthy family in those days. You had a beautiful home virtually at a place called, which is really a prominent landmark in Bombay, overlooking the sea and nice big house with a tennis court in it.
And right next to a big club at the back where you could play golf and that, but you were still brought up in a very simple way. Okay. You sent to a middle class in that sense school.
Uh you went to Sydenham College.
Okay. Where you again didn't have a remarkable career. But you were from what I read and please correct me if I'm wrong, you know, your academic records was average. It was not brilliant. I from what I understand. And I think you use that word somewhere unremarkable. So how did that influence you? The feeling of in a large family set and yet being unremarkable because I want to, it's going to, it's a leading question.
Yes. So you're absolutely right. Uh I was the first grandson in the family. So when I was born from what I heard from my father and my uncles that tremendous joy, celebration, the next generation arrived in the family. So and very high expectations from the family that okay, uh we have to watch him, we have to groom him, he has to be successful. Uh and here I am relatively shy, not as confident, diffident actually. Uh not bad at studies but not great at studies. Not topper.
Yeah. So here the family to some extent from whatever I could perceive was a bit disappointed with my progress as a kid in terms of education, in terms of participation in sports, other interests. And so I think to some extent that was, I won't call it haunting me, but that was impacting me.
Uh so I mean I'm not able to fulfill the, shall I say, expectations of my elders starting from my grandfather to my father and uncles.
Yeah. They were expecting you to be this great shining star, you know, to be top in everything, excel, be extrovertish, be this natural leader of the next gen. Yes. And here you were shy. [laughter] Okay. So, how did you deal with that?
And what's, I mean that it's, I mean I didn't deal with it. I said I mean to some extent that was behind me and uh to complete the story, you know, I wanted to study MBA management and after my graduation from Sydenham College I couldn't get admission into IIM Ahmedabad, Kolkata or Bangalore and these were the schools at that time, management schools in India. I wanted to go abroad and my father said no you're not going abroad.
And I like, you thought you'll come back with some foreigner, uh either that or I'll never come back.
I don't know what was going in his mind. But I was not that, shall I say, rebellious to say that no let me go. And today's kids are far more rebellious than kids of those times. So I said okay I will not go. Then I was very sure that I don't want to study chartered accountancy because for a graduate, commerce graduate you have three routes. One is being a chartered accountant. Another is being a lawyer, go to law school and third is go through an MBA school. You know I was very clear I had to, if at all I had to study, I had to do MBA. I was not keen on doing an accounting kind of a job, accounting kind of education nor a legal which was not my interest because I was, one thing I was very sure that I am not going to work for anybody else at that time. I have to be in my own business. I don't want to report to anybody else but in a family business.
So you knew that you were a part of a very large family as you said so many members and by then so many of your cousins had also uh followed you, you know, in terms of you were the eldest but there were a number of boys in the family system. So how did you think that you were not going to be uh having somebody, you know, to to work for so to speak?
I mean that was at that time when I joined the difference, the age difference between me and my eldest cousin was almost 8 to 10 years.
So I had a, I had a big gap between us and then a whole host of another five six cousins joined the business, you know, but I think that was there in my mind before I even, when I was studying that okay I'm not going to work for anybody else. I didn't, family, family was okay but working for somebody was not. And but I didn't have any clue what I would do. Okay. No clue that I was going to consumer products or do anything. It just evolved. Uh but with a very strong desire to win because that past of not able to study management, not able to get into a management school, that diffident me versus the expectations of me in the family was all behind me in terms of that I have to prove myself, you know, so in a way looking back it was a good thing to happen, you know, because that really made me far more determined, far more persistent. And they say passion is important but to me passion has to be combined with determination and perseverance to succeed.
If you are passionate, if you fail and all of us fail and you tend to give up then you're not going to succeed. But if you're passionate and determined and persevered then you again fight back and overcome that failure and go on trying until you succeed. So it's not theoretical, failing is and overcoming it is not theoretical.
Not at all. For me it has been all my, I think many of my growth initiatives, many of my successes are because of my failures, you know. So it's okay to fail. And it so happened that at that time the family was, our office was located in the heart of commodity markets in Bombay, Masjid Mandir, which is the most chaotic place in the world I would say in terms of traffic and dirtiness and whatnot. It was a completely family managed organization. Nobody has guided me that you do this. I had to find my own answers. So my whole journey has been to find my own answers. Don't be dependent on somebody else to motivate you or to guide you. There was nobody. So I had to search myself in terms of how do I grow, whom do I tap in terms of whatever help I require.
So how did you even learn where to really, as you use the word tap, because if you don't have any one mentor, you don't have this MBA cover which, whether we agree or we don't agree, does give you a framework.
I think the starting point, you're right, absolutely the starting point is that desire to learn that has to be very strong. You just read, I read a lot. I used to read a lot at those days, it was more books and things like that, magazines, there were no internet. Uh so I read a lot and then interacting with thought leaders. But you have to identify the thought leaders you want to interact with because any thought leader is not going to help you. But if you have decided, by then I had already made moves into getting into consumer products because that's what I understood. I am not a tech person. I cannot understand any technology. So I had to be in a business which was devoid of technology. And I loved this and I didn't want to go into a B2B business where you have to go to a buyer or a business which was, uh, which required a lot of regulatory approval through Delhi or government. You know, I was very happy to get into consumer products which didn't require a B2B taking somebody out for dinner or working with some buyer of a company or going to government offices or handling a tech business. And the business I went in didn't require all that and I had to deal with very ordinary people, distributors, retailers. So it was, I was very comfortable doing that.
In spite of your diffidence.
Yeah. Doing that with people who are like, you know, you are not dealing with a person who is a highly intellectual person, thing like that, you're dealing with very ordinary people, you know. I think that really built my confidence a lot and I think I don't regret getting into.
So would you for a moment just coming to this education and the fact that you applied for this MBA and didn't get in and then decided okay, of course you are very deeply disappointed as you said that you didn't get in, a feeling of being a failure, I didn't get into the top schools. Uh forget the fact that your father turned around and said no don't go abroad. But in India if you had gotten you would have, he would have allowed you but you didn't do it. Would you say that an MBA today is something that you would encourage people to do or not to do or?
See I think, uh, depending on where MBA, MBA you have hundreds of schools today. So I think if you have to do MBA you have to get into a good school. Uh don't do a MBA in any particular school. I think MBA teaches you some basic business issues. It doesn't teach you everything. It doesn't unfortunately doesn't teach you a lot in terms of dealing with people, leadership styles and things like that. You know, it's more to do with case studies, strategy, yes. Uh theory, yes, but ultimately I think there is much more to doing business than just being an MBA. But uh I would say if you, if any youngster wants to be in a business and is uh able to get admission to a good school it's, it's worth doing that I would say because it'll give you some degree of, and I had to learn all that because of my reading and a lot of people, kids may not do that, you know. And I have interacted with a lot of thought leaders and that time most of the thought leaders were either professionals working in good organizations or management gurus who were either in India or outside India. Indian gurus like starting with C.K. Prahalad to Ram Charan who is my co-author with my book on my book, or Jagdish Sheth, many, many, many thought leaders. I've interacted a lot in my journey, you know.
They were all professors, you lot?
Professors, they were also professionals working in organizations, you know.
So I ask because I think it's a question often asked because my own son, I tried, uh, use a, his Rishabh, I mean Aiman is a younger one. He went into, he was a history major at Columbia and he went into tech, you know, he learns tech and he writes on tech. And so I've been encouraging to go to my own alma mater which is Harvard. Okay. And uh I think he would have gotten quite easily and he says no I don't want to, I'm for similar reasons, he says what I'll be able to learn on my own. Yeah, you go and I don't want to do it because I'm, uh, yes, networking is very important which you get a phenomenal amount at schools like Harvard, Stanford, other schools. But he says I have enough of a network. I don't need those, that particular network and his image is that it's a bit of a party thing. A lot of it is party. But what I, what I really appreciate about you is you're, you're constantly learning. You're constantly meeting people. You make these copious notes. And what do you do with those notes? Do you actually ever read them again?
No. No. I, I think it's more to do with execution. It's just not notes, you know, because many times, you know, I don't want to occupy my mind with remembering things which are mundane, you know, when do I have meeting with this or when do I have that or when I met you last time, what did I speak? So that note is there. It is there in my files. So only when it's there in your files, it's there in my files. And I will whenever I have to meet you, for example, if you're doing some business together or if I'm mentoring you, I will have that note, one pager, it'll be there. So when you meet me after say one or two years I don't have to remember what I discussed with you. I just have to read that note. I do skip level interviews which is going one level lower than the managing director. And when I do the skip level interview it is just one page note. What happened? What is your motivation level? What you like? What you don't like? All that is captured in the note. And I do it yearly or sometimes twice a year. I give that note to the person that this is what we discussed. It's all lying in my file. So it's in a way it's good reminder. I don't have to bother myself in remembering what I discussed. Many times we don't remember also something.
Who did you learn this from?
It is just a habit I picked up, you know. But I know Azim Premji also does a lot of, if you look at Azim Premji is always writing down things, you know, even I think Jack Welch and Steve Jobs also had that habit, you know. So it's, it's to improve execution and ensuring that whatever you discussed is captured on paper and you don't need to remember everything because you will forget over a period of time. If I meet you after 5 years, you may not remember. I may not remember what I discussed with you.
No, no. I, I make notes to be honest, but I don't file them in the way. It's filed properly. I think that is something that I, I still need to learn that.
And sometimes I may not refer. If I don't have to meet you for next five years, I may not refer. Then I clean up a lot of my files over a period of months, months and two years. So if I don't require then I'll discard those.
But what did you, what did you want for your son to do in terms of learning and in terms of, so it's a good question in terms of how do you, what, what do you, what role do you play in, in your children's journey, whether it's your son or daughter, I think both are equally important.
Equally, sorry, I, and I personally think that each of us has got some god-given gifts. Each of us, each individual in this world has some god-given gift, there is no doubt about it. The problem is most of us don't know what is our gift, you know.
Okay. And so how do you determine what is your gift?
Is the starting point. My gift was working with people of ordinary level, you know, understanding consumer psychology, what makes people buy. So I had to go into a career based on my strengths. If there is something I like doing which is my strength and if I go into that business I'll enjoy that journey and those issues of work-life balance will vanish completely because you are enjoying what you're doing. So the key thing is to determine what is your strength and that strength will go on changing over a period of time as you go on getting experience. But at one stage when before you, once you finish college or whatever or when you studying also. And many of us has blind spots, I may not know my own strengths but you may know because you know me well. So I have to gather people who I know, my friends, my relatives, whoever knows me and tell them okay let's explore, let's do brainstorming in terms of what my strengths and what are my weaknesses also which I should not go into, you know. So it's just a two-hour exercise identifying what are my strengths, what are my weaknesses, just gives me some sort of a balance sheet of mind that okay now based on these strengths what are the careers I can go into. So I think it's very important to leverage your future based on your strengths. Of course your strengths will go on changing and you may want to relook at it over a period of time. So I think that is the journey. So my daughter for example, she loved being with animals from very young age. So animals was her passion in life. So when she said that I want to be a behaviorist which is different than a trainer. So canine and feline behaviorist. So when she actually works with dogs, cats, uh the owners and most of the time the problem is with owners rather than the animals, you know.
So how do you, I mean problem, say the pets and things like that. So she has built her career on that and luckily financial thing was not behind me and I, I wanted them to enjoy life. Whatever they want to do they should do it not because I built a business. So there was zero expectation from me that they should follow what I was doing but it should be based on their strengths first, that they should enjoy doing it and let them discover that, you know, they may do something, they may fail, they may do something else which is again based on their strengths.
Yeah I think it's really important what you're saying is follow, helping them follow their passions. Yes. Because life is really about enjoying the moment. Absolutely. Every single moment. If you're chasing something which is not enjoyable for you, what is the point of actually doing it because you're living today for this moment. And I'm so delighted that you actually didn't have this dictat for your children saying that this is and draw a road map for them saying this is what they should be doing and um you know increasingly parents are moving away from it now in our generation but when you, you know, because he's also what 42, 43?
My son is, yeah, is 44 now.
44. So at that time it would have been quite rigid, you know, of wanting an expectations of what your son should be doing because you were building up the company. You also wanted somebody to maybe be a successor, but you said no, I don't necessarily want him to be a successor. So does that work in business families where you can, where you're identifying a young individual? Don't, don't you want a legacy of the individual coming into your business or you saying the legacy can be something different?
So I think the starting point is the legacy of the business itself. Uh do you want to perpetuate in your business? Do you want your business to continue beyond you? Each, each individual, each business will have a different viewpoint. It's perfectly okay to have that kind of viewpoint. Some people will want to sell the business. Uh okay I'll lend cash and then enjoy the wealth. Some people depending on the kind of business you are in you have to decide on that, you know, because our business is known as what is called a defensive business, FMCG, you know, it's uh less vulnerable to technology disruptions, geopolitical development. It's less vulnerable compared to many other businesses. So I for one, we have seen companies like Lever's or Procter & Gamble or Cadbury's have continued for years and years, I mean 200 or thing like that because the business itself is very strong based on very strong brand, strong distribution network. So I saw myself and Marico as something which was based on a, from a long-term party beyond me. So all my actions have been to keep Marico running beyond me. So what do I need to build in perpetuity has been one of my bigger kind of things. So how do I build perpetuity? So for that you need a good board of directors. Uh of course if my son was, uh, not ready when I had appointed a successor to mine. So our role has changed now from being, um, active promoter-led company to a more on the side of a strategic investor. Not strategic but more on the side of strategy where we will have review meetings with the management but it will be run independently and the company now as on today looks like it will be professionally run in future. There is not a single family member who is a part of the company. But there is no right answer. Suki, you know, because depending on the kind of culture you built, in the kind of talent you have, uh, what do you want to do with the business, you may have to tailor make your journey to what extent your children have to be coming in, to what extent are they capable. So there is no right answer. This is the answer I found for myself.
But did your son want to come into the business? And he was in a way, expectations were there from the family. Okay. From his mother, that my wife, um, that he would inherit. So he also thought that he would come into the business. It was, uh, to some extent it was, uh, influenced by the expectations in the family. Uh so when this thing came in in terms of, uh, appointing a professional it was a very tough decision. It was a very very tough decision for me to what do I tell my son? What do I tell my wife? How do we deal with this issue socially? Because India is a very hierarchical society. It's expected that your son would step into your shoes.
Yes. That he will be an entrepreneur and he was. So to decide that was a very tough thing. I, I had to do it because I, I followed that thumb rule of what is good for the organization comes first and not what is good for the family. So it was in the interest of the organization to appoint a professional who had been with me for 10 years prior to his appointing, being appointed, uh, managing director. And uh I think it has paid off brilliant dividends in the last 10, 12 years. Our growth, our market cap, everything has gone up substantially. So but it was a big struggle to deal with the, have difficult conversations within families. I, I had to explain to them that this is good for the organization but still it, it took a long, long time.
It feels pontificatory. It feels like, you know.
I know but I, I had to decide and I said I know this business very well then I can say that this is something good for the organization and you have to accept what I'm saying and you have to accept the fallout of this in terms of communicating within say friends or some relatives or other society people, you know. Uh but luckily Suki I think whenever I have taken some decisions which are quite contrary to what is expected, it has worked out well for me in this case. My son was very upset and we had a, I won't call it a strained relationship but we didn't have the best of relationships at that time and he was also angry at me and of course he was upset, uh, disappointed, uh, why he was not given a chance. So he within him he had that the desire that okay I have to prove myself just like I had the desire to prove myself because of my upbringing and lack of education. He had the desire to prove himself that okay I have to prove myself and ultimately that led him to start this business, uh, where he has done extremely well and what has happened is because of that our equation has improved dramatically. He is so confident and we are working together. He invests in consumer-facing businesses where I understand, I mentor many of the entrepreneurs he invested in, we discuss but he manages it independently, he doesn't come to me for any decisions to invest, where to invest, but he just tells me. But my role comes in after he invests in terms of helping those entrepreneurs scale up. So we have now, I mean we had discussed and then now I'm grooming him to be, uh, in the company, he's on board of Marico to follow me as a chairman but he will not have an operational role. He will not have an operational role.
No but the question here is that you were able to have this conversation. And you were able to share with him that what is good for the organization may not necessarily be what is perceived to be good for the individual as such and you are able to finally get him to be aligned and I think that's, I think it's really, if you come from a space of honesty and, uh, transparency I think conversations like that however difficult actually can work out. It can work out but sometimes you have to put your foot down.
You can't just, but and have a middle path solution. You know. These conversations can, I be candid with you? You can have maybe with your son and you can risk it. But how does one have it with a spouse?
You have to, I mean you have to get what are known as green balls. Green balls are those who are agreeing with your views and they are able to influence, in this case say my wife means, outside.
Outsiders whom my wife respects, and willing to listen to that person. And that person is agreeing with my views. So that person is my green ball. I have to use my green balls to influence her. So that is just not coming from my personal side but it is supported by some other individual whom she respects. See, many cases disputes in family we don't use green balls. Like I've seen it in many families, father-son issues in terms of delegating to son. So I always told that person, find green balls, find out your uncle or father's friend who is agreeing with your views and use him to convince your father rather than you trying to do it all the time. You know, and that alternate approach works very effectively. So it's a green ball approach. Is there any other approach? No, I think ultimately in this case the board played a role. So I had the backing of the board and to some extent she understood that board also plays an important role and the board is comprised of individuals who are capable, able individuals.
Okay. But you know, you've always believed in transparency and openness. Now I'm just shifting gears for a moment. The company, and I just wonder, I would like to link it up to families also and to see if conversations help in that sense. But you've created a company which has got very high values and where very high sense of corporate governance. A company that does not give any bribe at all, in which India most people would say, are you crazy? How can you even manage, at least not to get business, but at least to get things done you need to pay. So what is wrong with it? But you have resisted that path so far. And A, what made you have that level of confidence? And B, how did you build up this culture within the company? And what does corporate governance mean to you?
See, I will tell you, giving small speed money to a factory inspector, that to me that's not the bigger issue. The bigger issue is giving big money in terms of from the government regulatory authorities, talking of big, big money to get a special favor which will help you in your business. Luckily the kind of business I ran didn't require too many regulatory approvals. In the first 30 years of my business I must have gone to Delhi to a government office precisely one or two times when the government banned exports of coconut oil. I had to go and tell them that okay we are exporting and we built a market. So it was just to overcome some negative action taken by government. So thank God I have not had to go to government for doing this and that really put me at ease in terms of I don't need to do all that. You know, many of my friends, business families at that time there was license raj, everybody thrived because you got a license from the government and because you got a license there was restricted competition, easier for you to succeed. So they thrived and luckily I didn't have to do that. So I think that was the starting point and I think just, first of all I'm against doing all this. So it was not fitting into my mindset of bribing somebody and succeeding. So that is my internal, shall I say, you may call it values, principles, whatever you may call it. So that's something which I had it in me. I don't know what led to that.
Would you have been able to do it if you were in a more regulated industry?
It would be very difficult to succeed. But I had to, that means if I don't want to do it I have to be in an industry which doesn't require this. So luckily I...
